Well, bigotry and hatred aside. It is hard to relate to someone that fundamentally disagrees with a core tenant of your reality. The Universe was created vs the Universe was not created. Atheists on this board, you seem to want to challenge theists on this belief. Theists will certainly want to do the same to you. An age old argument that's not going to get settled here. Regardless I ask, what is wrong with considering the possibility that there is a God? There is no first to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

What if your physician believed with conviction that disease is caused by an excess of shortage of one of the four humors - blood, phlegm, black bile, or yellow bile? If your child had an infection would you take her to that doctor? I hope not? Humans have evolved beyond such ridiculous beliefs don't you think?

Pascal's wager uses flawed logic and an immature understanding of probability theory (which is understandable because he essentially created that branch of math). It requires assuming infinite costs for not believing and zero costs for believing.

But there is a cost for believing in god, and, even if one believes the cost of believing in god is acceptable, there are additional costs to holding various levels of faith or belief. For example:

If we truly believed that god created the planet, animals, and so forth from nothing and that natural processes were not involved then there would have been no point studying most science beyond the basic observations of the Greeks. We'd have no oil because we would never have developed the geology knowledge to find it deeper that 100 feet or so. We'd know nothing of genetics so there would be a great deal of suffering from genetic diseases. No point in exploring the solar system = no computers, aluminum foil, early warning for hurricanes, etc. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that we humans have reaped enormous benefits in terms of useful knowledge because people questioned what they were taught by religion. Pascal ignored that.

Throughout history religious people have also used their beliefs to justify killing, enslaving, or otherwise doing despicable things to people that did not share their beliefs. Nonbelievers don't contribute to this cost.

What is wrong with considering the possibility that their is a god? Plenty:

If there is a god then he made me and those like me. He gave us the ability to think rationally and to evaluate evidence before accepting anything as true. Every religion I know of teaches that god makes his presence known in the world around us. I see no evidence in the world that cannot be explained naturally starting from a few basic principles of physics. We can explain (almost) everything starting from about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds after the big bang until now and most of the explanation is based on six measured quantities. There is no evidence of the action of a supernatural power. Perhaps god is hiding in the dark matter or tweaking the dials controlling those six parameters but, if so, that bears no resemblance to the omnipresent being that any human religion believes in. With the discovery of the Higgs boson we've got an unbelievably complete explanation for the behavior of the universe over an extremely large range of scales. There just isn't much space left for a god to be hiding.

If their is no god then we are wasting a huge amount of human effort building all these cathedrals, killing each other over movies, bombing abortion clinics, sitting on our butts on Sunday morning, and doing all the other stuff that people do in the name of religion.

Honestly, I'm not trying to convince anyone that there is no god. I truly don't care what anyone believes. I do, however, want to help people think clearly and rationally regardless of their beliefs. I have never said that a person that believes in god is incapable of thinking rationally. I have personally worked with some very religious scientists who were also brilliant. I have offered challenges to obvious examples of defective thinking and others have as well. I mean, when someone believes the dinosaurs were shrunk to fit on Noah's ark or that evolution never occured and all teh billions of pieces of observational evidence were put there to trick us, are you really comfortable with them voting, or even driving down the road? What if Jesus suddenly tells them it's time to come home and the mode should be turning head-on into the car coming at them that you are driving?

That is one of a infinite number of possibilities of things that "we don´t know anything about - that could be". Other things one that list is (and this is from the top of my head):

• The moon is infact a fraction of a former galactic civilizations equivalent of todays statue of liberty, and universe will not be free (or reach equilibrium) until the moon is infact liberated from it´s inconsolable orbit around the blob aka "earth".
  
• The uttermost and supreme purpose of the "recent activities" (biological life) on earth is for every living thing to realise and respects its subordination in relation to chipmunks, and treat them accordingly. Every living creature will be beamed to nirvana (in the immediate vicinity of gamma quadrant) the seconds this event occurs, and as soon as we built a suitable temple of worship (shape of an acorns, size of Wyoming).

I could go on.

How do you feel about acorns? Or Wyoming?

Didn't they buy votes for Obama in 2008?

I think they're nuts!

So? I put a lot of faith in the current medical system. From the plethora of vaccinations that are recommended for my child to the various medications and treatments that have helped my grandfather extend the use of his eye-site. But the recommendations of the medical community are every changing. No doubt 10 years from now many treatments of the day will be deprecated and may even seem barbaric. We do the best we can, learn, and improve.



It is simplistic, but by assuming infinite costs for not believing and zero costs for believing it filters out the noise and think abstractly about the idea.

Has this useful knowledge been discovered because we questioned reglion? Seriously? You sound as if all innovation would cease to exist if everyone believed that there was a creator. It's simply not true. Not only have there been numerous religious people involved in many inventions and scientific discoveries, human beings are curious by nature and build upon the work of those who have gone before them.



Indeed they have. However, I am confident that we would find other reasons to blow ourselves up over if there was no religion.



That is the fundamental difference. Those who see order and design to the universe, and those who do not. You think we really know the answer to life the universe and everything? 42. Just think about how much we don't know about our own human brain. The discovery of the Higgs is certainly some exciting science but does it prove anything about the existence of god? Did the discovery of the atom? The electron? Depends on how you look at it.



If there is no god we're waiting huge amount of time being.



I agree.

I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster stole my acorns and moved to Wyoming!

So in essence you're saying "there are many things wrong with trying think about ridiculous things rationally".

Well, good luck convincing people of your position when you won't empathize with theirs.

But the difference is that those medical professionals change their beliefs based on new EVIDENCE. Some religious people cling to the belief that the bible is infallible and 100% accurate (in spite of obvious and clear inconsistencies) and they dismiss all evidence that does not support their beliefs. A few sentences in an ancient text say the universe was magically created in 7 days and that's enough to reject hundreds or thousands of years of scientific evidence to the contrary? That's just plain ridiculous, especially when the same bible gives a totally different story of creation on the next page.


Physics very definitely sees order to the universe. But the idea that order implies design is a completely human idea. It's a false assumption that people go back to because of some story they heard once about a watch.

Clearly our knowledge of the universe is not fully complete. But in the last 1000 years, and to some degree in the last 200, we have gone from not being able to explain the most basic phenomenon (like wind for example or why molten rocks spurt out of the ground occasionally) to having a very detailed explanation of much of the natural world. When we could not explain things it was completely understandable that people resorted to supernatural explanations. Magic, witches, or divine retribution made as much sense for explaining crop failure as an invisible plant virus.

We didn't even really know about galaxies 100 years ago. Now we can measure the characteristics of the universe (age, size, expansion rate, temperature) to high precision and it agrees with laws of physics we have verified. Just 100 years ago a 5-year-old stating god put the stars where they were was just as close to the accepted explanation as a professor making a similar speculation. But now we understand the processes that shaped the universe much better. We don't need to appeal to a god doing it. The laws of physics are responsible. If someone wants to believe that god wrote the laws of physics, that's fine. But those kinds of explanations are becoming more and more constrained. We can't say what happened "before" the big bang, if that even makes any sense, but we are even developing ideas about that epoch which might even point to relatively simple explanations for the cause of the big bang.

And this scientific knowledge is not just someone's belief or hunch. There is a vast amount of evidence that supports the knowledge and we even understand the physics in most cases. The Higgs boson was an example of one of the "holes." It was something predicted by theory. If it had not been found that would have been problematic. There are of course additional "holes" but they really are minor. One of these is the relative strength of the fundamental forces (gravity, weak, strong, and electromagnetic) and the charge to mass ratios and fine scale constant. These are some numbers that define the way the universe behaves. We don't understand why they are as they are. Maybe god is turning the dials. But if so, that's hardly the omnipotent god people used to believe in. Now all he gets to do is twist 6 knobs.

Basically, we have no EVIDENCE of a god exerting his will anywhere in the universe except possibly in setting these constants and writing the laws of physics.

It's not the belief in god that I find incomprehensible. It is the inability to accept evidence and reconcile old beliefs with new evidence.

How is the idea that order implies design is a completely human idea? I look around me and see many things that were designed. My computer, headphones, the cars in the parking lot. I understand their purpose and function and see the same purpose and function in nature. Is that not evidence?

Yes, we can explain many more things that we used to. But what are we doing? Maybe we are just revealing the design.

To compare literal interpretations of the Bible to what the Iranians follow shows a lack of knowledge at best. Jesus taught peace, love, mercy and died on a cross for it. Mohamad conquered his neighbors. There is no passage in the Bible that says one should kill those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world. Let’s take some passages from the Islam holy books for example.


Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." – Muslims are to fight for Allah.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." – Those who reject Allah will face trials in this world and will not have any help.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." – Muslims are to kill those who don’t believe in Allah.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy." – Those who reject Islam cannot escape.

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." – After the sacred months Muslims are to wage war and terrorize those who don’t believe in Allah.

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness." – A call to fight non-Muslims.

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." – Those who fight for Allah will have eternal rewards. Those who do not fight for Allah will be punished and replaced.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves." Hurt non-Muslims and be good to fellow Muslims.

Muslim (1:33) – “the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.” A command to fight against those who don’t believe in Allah and that Muhammad is his prophet.

While some Fundamentalist Christians can take things to an extreme I'm not sure you would find people claiming Christ blowing up buildings, committing suicide, etc. It is also interesting that Christians don't kill people who speak against Jesus, God (Jehovah - the One True God), or the Bible. People who burn the Bible are not killed or terrorized. Speak of doing the same to the Quran... Or insulting Muhammad... That's completely different. France has closed schools and embassies over some cartoons an artist made as an example.

Actually I am capable of considering questions presented. My IQ is not as small as you'd like to believe.

As to your specific questions no I don't believe someone who is raped should be put to death. Rape is wrong. I do not judge those who work on Sunday.

I'm not sure if I self-edit passages of the BIble. However, I would say the most important aspect too look at in Scripture is the context of the passage.

I believe in the Bible a Christian. So I started with the question “What is the Bible?”

The Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible, and sufficient Word of God. The Bible is God’s love letter to mankind. To say the Bible is inspired means that the Bible was authored, or God-breathed, by God through men. To say the Bible is inerrant means there are no errors in it. To say the Bible is infallible means it is safely relied on and completely trustworthy. To say the Bible is sufficient means that it contains everything one needs to know to obtain salvation in Jesus Christ and live life as a Christ-follower.

The Bible was given to us as evidence and illustration of God’s love for us. The Bible is to be cherished, studied, obeyed, and fully trusted. To dismiss the Word of God is dismiss God Himself. All Scripture testifies to Jesus Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.

To me there are two choices. Either Jesus was a raging, lying lunatic or He was the Only Begotten Son of God and Savior of the World for the remission of sins who rose from the dead to sit at the right hand of God.

The Word of God speaks of itself:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

One of the greatest chapters in the Bible concerning the Word of God itself is Psalms 119.

How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. - Psalms 119:9
Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You. - Psalms 119:11
Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven. - Psalms 119:89
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. - Psalms 119:105
The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple. - Psalms 119:130
Great peace have those who love Your law, and nothing causes them to stumble. - Psalms 119:165

Here we see five things the Word of God will do for Believers:

1. In verse 9 the Word of God will cleanse our ways
2. In verse 11 the Word of God will keep us out of sin
3. In verse 105 the Word of God is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path
4. In verse 130 the entrance of the Word of God gives light
5. In verse 165 the Word of God gives great peace

Other great verses that show the importance of the Word of God in Christians daily lives are:

1. The Word of God is the means of reaching the unsaved and bringing them to Christ,
John 5:24; Romans 1:16; I Peter 1:23

2. The Word of God gives assurance of salvation and eternal life - John 5:24; 10:27-28 and I John 5:13

3. The Word of God sets us free - John 8:32

4. The Word of God cleanses us - John 15:3, John 17:17, and Ephesians 5:26

5. The Word of God builds our faith - Romans 10:17

6. The Word of God makes us wise unto salvation - II Timothy 3:15

7. The Word of God is quick and powerful - Hebrews 4:12-13

8. The Word of God will judge those who reject it - John 12:48

9. The Word of God will never pass away - Psalms 119:89; Matthew 24:35; I Peter 1:25


I think this video with Dr. S.M. Lockridge - "That's My King" sums up my belief about Christ. I hope you guys enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE

See, this is the part I have trouble with. How do you reconcile these two things? If one believes the bible is inerrant and infallible, how can one then disagree with anything written in it?

Frustrated on so many levels.

I see you're back to discuss religion (at your discretion, of course). So I'll ask what I asked in July, since you never replied.

Thanks Eagle! I appreciate this post.