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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:36 am 
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VinTek wrote:
Tightwad wrote:
How can I put this in terms that might be understood? There is a Hindu fable by John Godfrey Saxe about six blind men and an elephant. The first one came up to the elephant and touched its sturdy side therefore thought the elephant was like a wall. The second came up to the elephant and touched its tusk therefore thought the elephant was like a long spear. The third came up to the elephant and touched its squirmy tusk therefore thought the elephant was like a squirmy snake. Perhaps we can all get the picture they had different perspectives on the same animal. They all described what they were able to grasp in their present condition. Yet all were partly right and all were partly wrong. Now the illustration does break down at some point. Humans are finite in their understanding of the universe, life, etc. God is limitless, all knowing, and His thoughts are absolutely amazing. That is a picture of how I view discussions on Biblical teachings and divergences on the same.

That fable is an old one, and taught to many schoolchildren. I am familiar with it. But how can it apply here? Does God not reveal all in the Bible? The Bible is complete, is it not? How many denominations focus on one part to the exclusion of other parts? I've always liked that fable. It teaches us to look at all the information available before drawing conclusions, but I don't really think it applies here.


Exactly! I was going to comment on this earlier. To me the message is that they are all wrong because they did not seek out all available evidence and reconcile their conclusions with all the evidence. Oddly enough, that's what I thought the point of the fable was when I first heard in when I was very young. I took the message to be to always make judgments based on all the available evidence and always be willing to change your belief when new evidence becomes available.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:47 am 
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Tightwad wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, to the point: don't the statements above form a contradiction? If we choose to sin, it implies that we have a choice. And that in turn implies that we have free will, doesn't it?


Yes and no.

You have a choice to sin or not. Please don't confuse that with being tempted to sin. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you won't be tempted to sin. Jesus was even tempted by Satan.

Christians do not have free will. We were bought for a price. Free will & freedom of choice are entirely different things. If you tell your kids to clean their room or else because you said so, does that give them a choice to obey or not in your eyes? Yeah, they can disobey but at what cost?


There are two issues I see here in question:

Free will to resist temptation.
Free will to accept Jesus Christ as Savior.


I agree with Tightwad to a certain extent. Particularly on the choice to sin or not to sin. All people are tempted to sin and God does not tempt people. (James 1:13-14) But only those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are able to resist temptation with God’s help. (Heb. 2:18) God makes a way for Christians to overcome temptations. (1 Cor. 10:13) And it important to note that while Jesus was tempted by Satan Jesus didn’t fall into temptation.

Tightwad’s statement “Christians do not have free will.” comes from Reformation theology. However, the Bible does make a case for humans having a free will to choose.

1. God is absolutely sovereign. (Eph. 1:11)

2. God does whatever He wants and is unstoppable. (Psalm 115:3; Daniel 4:34-35)

3. Humans are morally responsible for their choices. See below…

“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.” - Deuteronomy 30:19

“And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” - Joshua 24:14

“Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen; let them deliver you in your time of distress.” - Judges 10:14

“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” - Proverbs 3:31

“Let Your hand become my help, For I have chosen Your precepts.” - Psalm 119:173

“Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.” - Isaiah 55:6

“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.” - Luke 11:9-10

“For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.” - 1 Cor. 9:17

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.” - Hebrews 10:26-27

I particularly believe there are valid arguments for both predestination and free will in the Bible.

For the record I agree with you on the gift of tongues.

Your thoughts Titghwad?

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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:14 pm 
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The bible explicitly states that the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.0

More recent evidence is that the value is close to 3.1416. We often use the Greek letter "pi" to stand for this observed quantity.

Now, do you think the bible is wrong? Or do you think all the measurements made over the last several thousand years are wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:48 pm 
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DoingHomework I’m not a Biblical scholar but I will attempt to respond to your questions regarding the passages and thoughts. This is based on my studies and experiences.

All the passages you quoted in the OT have to do with the bondage of the Mosaic Law and Covenant which ended with the coming of Messiah (Jesus). The sin is still detestable to God but Jesus Christ paid the death penalty and the sin can be forgiven because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. Ultimately end the result of sin is death – both physical and spiritual in form. For details on Mosaic & Abrahamic Covenants see previous posts.

Regarding Eph 5:22-24 – The word “submit” can also be interpreted “honor.” Just as a woman honors God she is to honor her husband. But further once again context is important. But in context we can see the passage isn’t simply speaking to wives.

In context it would be good to look at Eph 5:21-33 for a clearer understanding of verses 22-24.

Vs. 21: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Christians are to honor and think of others first. Doesn’t always happen granted but that is the command.

Vs. 25-30: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.” Husbands are to model to their wives the sacrificial love of Christ to the Church. Husbands are to cherish their wives and love them as their own bodies.

Vs 32: “This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.” In context the passage is to be a mirror example of Christ and the Church.

So in context the passage you referenced is a picture of Christ and the Church to be modeled in marriage. People often overlook the verse before the verses you mentioned (22-24) and the verses following. It is the husband’s responsibility to sacrificially love his wife and imitate Christ. Notice the passage doesn’t say Husbands love your wife if she respects you and when you feel like it. Or Wives honor your husband’s when he’s loving towards you and you feel like it. Why is this passage significant? For men? Because men might be prone to respect their wives but loving them unconditionally might be somewhat difficult. For women? Because women often have a tendency to love their husbands but sometimes can find it hard to honor them unconditionally. At least that is the implication. For the record I don’t believe in emotional, physical, or spiritual abuse. I believe there is a strong case against abuse in the Bible. Anyone who practices abuse is not acting according to the teachings of the Bible.

As to 1 Peter 2:13, 18 once again let’s look at the context of the passage. So let’s take 1 Peter 2:11-25

Vs 12: “Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.” So the command is to live lives that would glorify God among the ungodly. Doesn’t always happen but that is the goal.

Vs. 13 should be looked at also from the perspective of vs. 15-17: “For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.” So basically the context of the passage was Rome was persecuting Christians (the Church) who were considered ironically atheistic during that time. The command to obey authorities was given to keep people from rebelling against persecution and suffer for Christ. Isn’t this funny considering that Peter was the first to spill blood supposedly in the name of Christ by cutting off the ear of the servant of the high priest? Freedom in Christ was not to be used to blatantly disobey God. Finally respect was to be shown to all.

With that in mind we approach vs. 18 and follow it with vs. 19-21: “For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.” Within the Roman Empire a majority of the population (between 50-85%) were slaves. A natural reaction to the oppression of Christians would’ve been to rebel. Peter was instructing all Believers/Christians to follow Christ’s example and endure when things got rough. Doing good in the passage refers to teaching the Gospel and helping others. While slavery is not in effect today the same principles can be applied to current work. Understand that I don’t think anyone should be mistreated. However, the Bible teaches Christians are not to seek retribution as that is up to God to repay evil doers. For the record I do not approve of slavery and believe that we should do everything in our power to stop any such endeavors that promote said activity.

Probably more than what you wanted but hey I tried to keep it to the point. If nothing else hopefully I’ve been able to convey that context is important when looking at the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Eagle wrote:
All the passages you quoted in the OT have to do with the bondage of the Mosaic Law and Covenant which ended with the coming of Messiah (Jesus).


So what you are saying is that the prohibitions against homosexuality, cursing your parents, adultery, and so forth are only part of Mosaic law and that law no longer applies?

You also say that the ten commandments are part of mosaic law so I guess they no longer apply either. Does that mean christians are free to lie, cheat, steal, murder, and worship idols?

What about homosexuality. It seems that a lot of christians and a lot of clergy in particular are very outspoken against gays and lesbians. Are they basing these opinions on obsolete laws? And, you know what, I bet you can't find a single passage in the old or new testament that says there is anything wrong with lesbians.

I notice you forgot to address the part about the bible, including the new testament, condoning slavery.

But again, I actually don't really care what the bible says or what you believe. The point is that it takes a lengthy explanation to get around the obvious errors. It's embarrassing to say that a book the advocates death for minor offenses is dear to you so you make up some artificial distinction about different types of laws to say that the embarrassing parts no longer apply. Then you still apply those laws to justify opposing homosexuality, sexual freedom for women, and a host of other things. Its strains credulity to say the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:19 pm 
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VinTek once again I will try to explain what I believe based on my personal studies and experience. I do not speak for all Christians.

VinTek wrote:
I understand and respect that, and yet given precept that the Bible is the Word of God, I would expect more common interpretation. Surely God does not intend to for the Bible to communicate a different message to different groups of acolytes.


The basic message of the Bible is the same. Sin came into the world through Adam & Eve. Any one thing we do wrong (sin) separates us from God who is perfect and cannot be in near contact with sin. Jesus Christ came to take away the sins of the world as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins and give us the possibility of restoring our relationship to God. Jesus died, was resurrected by God, and now sits at the right hand of God as the mediator between God and mankind. Christians have hope of eternal life with God and forgiveness when the world is judged at Christ’s second coming. That is the basics of the Gospel. However, the specifics or details are where people have differing views.

VinTek wrote:
But how is that relevant? Yes, the Bible was written over hundreds of years and by numerous authors over the centuries. I get that. But if that's relevant, how do you know that the particular translation you follow is accurate? It's been filtered through so many fallible persons; how can you be assured of its infallibility?


There are numerous copies of the Bible and it’s various books. The evidence is there. The original language is there. But bottom line is faith. I believe that the Bible in its original language is the inspired by God. God used people to convey His message through His Holy Spirit. So the translations and filters would be under His power as well in that line of thinking. ;)

DoingHomework wrote:
VinTek wrote:
That fable is an old one, and taught to many schoolchildren. I am familiar with it. But how can it apply here? Does God not reveal all in the Bible? The Bible is complete, is it not? How many denominations focus on one part to the exclusion of other parts? I've always liked that fable. It teaches us to look at all the information available before drawing conclusions, but I don't really think it applies here.


Exactly! I was going to comment on this earlier. To me the message is that they are all wrong because they did not seek out all available evidence and reconcile their conclusions with all the evidence. Oddly enough, that's what I thought the point of the fable was when I first heard in when I was very young. I took the message to be to always make judgments based on all the available evidence and always be willing to change your belief when new evidence becomes available.


For the record I gave that example Doinghomework. ;) The issue is just like with the elephant many Christian denominations focus on what they perceive the Bible is saying from their standpoint. The Bible is all true. But different people approach it from different views. I respectfully disagree and I believe that the story is applicable.

As far as the need for scholarship and scholars the reason being is that people have different viewpoints of the same passages.

If Adam and Eve were perfect beings, how did they come to sin (or disobey)? Surely that is an imperfection. And if God's plan was to send a Messiah to save mankind because of Adam's failure, does that mean that God knew from the beginning that Adam would fail? That's the thing that gets me. We talking predestination now. I won't go over the whole Pharaoh discussion again, but it touches on the same principle. Why create people, give them choices, then condemn them when they make the wrong ones unless they go in for redemption? The whole concept is very strange to me.

I thought I attempted to answer this already. Also see what I wrote to Titghtwad regarding free will. Adam and Eve came to sin when they were tempted by the Devil. Yes, God new from the beginning Adam would fail. As one of my kids in Sunday school said “God is the biggest now it all in the history of the universe.” Yet He chose to create Adam and place him in the garden of Eden anyway. God wanted to give Adam the choice.

Pharaoh, like Judas Iscariot, was created for a reason. That reason is God wanted to glorify Himself. His game His rules.

The strange thing isn’t that some people suffer. The crazy awesome thing is that God would send His Son to die for you, me, and everyone else who ever did or will ever exist. Everyone doesn’t deserve Heaven. Everyone deserves Hell. Yet God adopts as heirs through and with Christ if we choose Him.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:53 pm 

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Eagle wrote:
Free will to resist temptation.
Free will to accept Jesus Christ as Savior.


I agree with Tightwad to a certain extent. Particularly on the choice to sin or not to sin. All people are tempted to sin and God does not tempt people. (James 1:13-14) But only those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are able to resist temptation with God’s help. (Heb. 2:18) God makes a way for Christians to overcome temptations. (1 Cor. 10:13) And it important to note that while Jesus was tempted by Satan Jesus didn’t fall into temptation.

Tightwad’s statement “Christians do not have free will.” comes from Reformation theology. However, the Bible does make a case for humans having a free will to choose.


It sounds like you & I are pretty close on our view points. However, it seems our definitions of "will" & "choice" are a little different. IMO "free will" means I have my get out of hell card so now I can do whatever I want without fear or repercussion. It ignores the fact that Christ paid your sin debt & God's will for your life should supercede everything else. "Freedom of choice" means 2 things: 1. You choose Christ or not once called 2. Choose to act on the temptation causing yourself to sin. Or not.

Quote:
I particularly believe there are valid arguments for both predestination and free will in the Bible.

Oh joy...the Calvinist vs Arminanist debate again. Scripture actually strikes a nice balance between the two.


Last edited by Tightwad on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:05 pm 
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In context I said:

Quote:
All the passages you quoted in the OT have to do with the bondage of the Mosaic Law and Covenant which ended with the coming of Messiah (Jesus). The sin is still detestable to God but Jesus Christ paid the death penalty and the sin can be forgiven because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. Ultimately the end result of sin is death – both physical and spiritual in form.


The Mosaic Covenant ended with the coming of Messiah. The OT law still applies and the sin is detestable to God. The punishment is no longer physical death. Perhaps I didn’t communicate this clearly.

There are also differences between Moral Laws and Cermonial Laws in the OT.

Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Matt. 5:17-18

The Ten Commandments still apply to the world today as evidenced by Jesus’ statement above.

Doinghomework wrote:
What about homosexuality. It seems that a lot of Christians and a lot of clergy in particular are very outspoken against gays and lesbians. Are they basing these opinions on obsolete laws? And, you know what, I bet you can't find a single passage in the old or new testament that says there is anything wrong with lesbians.


I think sometimes in the 21st century Church people focus on this sin but overlook just as serious sins such as pride, love of money, idolatry, gluttony, fornication, drunkenness, and immodesty.

As to lesbians…

“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” - Romans 1:24-27


Doinghomework wrote:
I notice you forgot to address the part about the bible, including the new testament, condoning slavery.


I actually did address it. The context of the passage was for Christians to be examples to non-Christians of suffering for Christ. The author even calls Christian’s to be slaves to God in vs 16 (and by implication not slaves to sin).

Doinghomework wrote:
But again, I actually don't really care what the bible says or what you believe.


Regardless I’m grateful for the challenge to really understand the Bible better. But I am tired and done for today.

For the record I detest violent extremists as well.

_________________
~ Eagle


Last edited by Eagle on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:16 pm 

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Eagle wrote:
... Jesus was a raging, lying lunatic....

I never met the bloke, so I could not say.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:45 pm 

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DoingHomework wrote:
But again, I actually don't really care what the bible says or what you believe. The point is that it takes a lengthy explanation to get around the obvious errors. It's embarrassing to say that a book the advocates death for minor offenses is dear to you so you make up some artificial distinction about different types of laws to say that the embarrassing parts no longer apply. Then you still apply those laws to justify opposing homosexuality, sexual freedom for women, and a host of other things. Its strains credulity to say the least.


In fact, it does not require a lengthy explanation.

1) Either there is a god or there is not.
2) Either this god designed and created the Universe or did not.
3) Either there is a purpose to existence or there is not.
4) Either this god intends to interact with its creation or it does not
5) Either we agree on these issues or we do not.

Now these are only the most basic of questions to answer, and really must answer these questions before we can move further.

Christianity answers, not only is there a god but there is a single all powerful God. This God created the Universe and everything in it. This God wants to interact with his creation, but not only that, desires a personal relationship with his creation (aka you).

Now since Christians hold that the Bible is a primary means in which God reveals himself to his creation, and is truth, something motivates you to point out obvious (to you) discrepancies. I don't really know what that motivation might be since "I actually don't really care what the bible says or what you believe" but on the other hand, and I paraphrase, "I want you to consider the EVIDENCE and make decisions for yourself". I submit that there is no EVIDENCE to prove or disprove God. Regardless of how much you want to talk about 6 dials. Furthermore, complex answers do not imply correctness, or lack there of. I cannot think of one field of study where, after a certain amount of primer, complex ideas do not come up that require context and detailed explanation.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:54 pm 

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I'd love to see http://www.caesarsmessiahdoc.com/ broadcast on Fox News. The thing is, what I'd really like to see is for some of you folks to dispel this as FUD (if it is indeed FUD) by presenting facts or context that refute it.

Quote:
The origin of the Christian religion has been a subject steeped in mystery for nearly 2,000 years. Who was Jesus? Is he a historical character? Who wrote the Gospels? Why are they written in Greek? Why did they have a pro-Roman and anti-Semitic perspective? Why was the religion headquartered in Rome? “The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus: Caesar’s Messiah” is a documentary based on the best-selling religious studies book by Joseph Atwill. Atwill is one of a number of scholars today from all around the world, who are questioning the historic facts behind these mysterious origins of Christianity. When examining the actual history of this era, many of the answers provided by the Church do not hold up to rigorous scrutiny. No doubt, Christianity has done a lot of good for the world, but a lot of bad has come from its most dogmatic believers, who create wars, hatred, and other harm under the disguise of religion. In studying how Christianity emerged, the seven controversial Bible scholars featured in this film agree that it was used as a political tool to control the masses of the day, and is still being used this way today. For example, support for the wars in the Middle East is preached to Evangelical Christians as a way to speed up the coming of the End of Days. Maybe we need to expand the possible answers about how Christianity originated, and deeper questions need to be asked. Maybe we need to examine what political motives were behind the formation of the Christian religion?

The documentary begins with a brief history of the political and religious climate of Judea in the first century CE – the era during which Christianity emerged. Judea was occupied by the Roman Empire, which required them to worship Caesar as a god. The Jews found this blasphemous, and they waged constant rebellions against the Empire. Their religious scriptures prophesied that a militaristic warrior Messiah would defeat the Romans and lead the Jews to liberation. A string of numerous Messiahs presented themselves to lead the people in war against Rome, only to be defeated and crucified – a customary Roman punishment for insurgents of the day. However, the Roman government was growing weaker from over a century of increasingly corrupt rule by the Julio-Claudian dynasty - the last emperor of this lineage being Nero, who was bankrupting the Empire with his self-indulgence. In their greatest victory, the messianic Jews finally succeeded in burning Rome and driving the Romans out of Judea. This caused Nero to call upon his best military men, the Flavians – Vespasian and his son Titus - to crush the rebellion for good. The Flavians succeeded not only in destroying the Jewish towns of Galilee and their temple in Jerusalem, but after Nero was deposed and committed suicide, they seized the throne through a military coup and took over reign of the Roman Empire itself. Under the Flavians, the Empire flourished, and many great monuments were built including the famous Coliseum. In order to pacify the Jewish rebellion, they captured and burned all the Jews’ scriptures. It is around this time that a new literature emerged with the story of a very different Jewish Messiah – one who preached “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s”, “turn the other cheek”, and “love your enemy”.

The second half of the documentary focuses on the documents the Flavians left behind which prove their authorship of the Gospels. The Bible scholars deconstruct the Gospels and the character Jesus, showing that they are based on archetypes found in the ancient pagan mystery schools and in earlier Jewish literature. Much of the teachings of Christianity are traced back to the writings of Philo of Alexandria - who was combining Jewish scripture with Greek pagan beliefs – and Stoicism, a philosophy promoted by the Flavians. When the Flavians seized control of the Roman Empire, they needed to legitimize their rule, so they had their Jewish court historian Josephus create a large body of work which became the only official history we have of the Roman-Jewish war. Bible scholar Joseph Atwill noticed many parallels between this historic account of the war and the events in the life of Jesus in the Gospels. Through his study of the ancient Greek texts and his discovery of an antiquated Hebrew literary genre, he found dozens of parallels between the Jesus story and the war history that occurred in the exact same sequence. This shows that the events of Jesus’ life which supposedly took place 40 years earlier, were actually all dependent on the events in the military campaign of the Roman Caesar Titus Flavius. Ancient texts were much more allegorical, multi-layered and complex than today’s writing, and when you read the Gospels and the histories of Josephus side by side, a new meaning arises which reveals the authors of the Gospels to be the Roman Flavian Caesars, their co-conspirators, and their literary team.

Along the way, the Bible scholars show how the Roman Imperial Cult - set up to worship Caesar as a god - formed the basis for the Roman Catholic Church, and that some of the Church’s first saints were members of the Flavian court. Atwill also shows how the “second coming of the Christ” referred to a historical event that already occurred. Featuring scholars Joseph Atwill, Robert Eisenman, John Hudson, Kenneth Humphreys, Rod Blackhirst, Acharya S / D.M. Murdock, and Timothy Freke, this ground-breaking documentary not only gives us a revolutionary new understanding of the origins of Christianity, but shows how the political use of religion is still affecting our personal lives today. We currently live on the brink of an immense paradigm shift, and this modern time is very parallel to the era in which Christianity emerged. Studying this ancient era can give us the much-needed perspective for coming up with solutions to today’s problems, so we can create the better world that we envision.

I haven't seen the film myself, so I can't make pointed statements a lá Eagle, but if I manage to get to a screening, maybe I'll do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:09 am 
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Vinny (Vintek), I think you just stepped in it with both feet. Though in the end I doubt anyone will be bothered by facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:15 am 

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DoingHomework wrote:
Vinny (Vintek), I think you just stepped in it with both feet. Though in the end I doubt anyone will be bothered by facts.

Yeah, I know. But I actually have a point. There are only a few of us who bother to dispel FUD around here. I figure maybe it's time for us to take possession of the ball and see how well the other side plays defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:09 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:33 pm
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Location: Illinois
This has been an entertaining read :)


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 Post subject: Re: Christian people - moral guide
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 10:05 am
Posts: 1133
tdelamater wrote:
In fact, it does not require a lengthy explanation.

1) Either there is a god or there is not.
2) Either this god designed and created the Universe or did not.
3) Either there is a purpose to existence or there is not.
4) Either this god intends to interact with its creation or it does not
5) Either we agree on these issues or we do not.

Now these are only the most basic of questions to answer, and really must answer these questions before we can move further.


In case it wasn't obvious I agree.

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