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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:48 pm 
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Location: Portland, OR
Rush wrote:
It's refreshing to see some intelligent discussion, I was beginning to get worried.


Do you really, seriously not understand how arrogant and offensive these types of comments are or do you just not care? You've basically just insulted everyone on this board by insinuating that people here are stupid and can't hold intelligent discussion. Is that what you meant to do?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:55 pm 
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One might also view the employer willing to pay 40% more as the stupid one in this case. Cultivating a culture of loyalty can go a long ways toward building a stable and productive work force.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:57 pm 
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nickel wrote:
One might also view the employer willing to pay 40% more as the stupid one in this case. Cultivating a culture of loyalty can go a long ways toward building a stable and productive work force.


Good point. If you get people to stay because they WANT to be there rather then because you're bribing them with more money the company as a whole would probably benefit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:00 pm 
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pf101 wrote:
Rush wrote:
It's refreshing to see some intelligent discussion, I was beginning to get worried.


Do you really, seriously not understand how arrogant and offensive these types of comments are or do you just not care? You've basically just insulted everyone on this board by insinuating that people here are stupid and can't hold intelligent discussion. Is that what you meant to do?


Actually, since you "called me out" - it was you I was referring to exclusively - On more than one occasion you've attacked me personally and without merit - which has frankly become annoying. I'm interested in learning and it seems that with every thread I post you never contribute to the general concepts, rather you select minutiae detail and proceed to tell me that since the wire is disconnected, the car will never run. . .as it sits idling.

To everyone besides pf101, I enjoy our conversations. . .

Lastly, when I have discussing with friends, family, co-workers, and the like, I often use the term "stupid" when referring to someone. Like, "That stupid guy just pulled out in from of me" or "It's seems stupid that they are not using a dolly to help them with that load" or "That gal was stupid for going fishing in the high wind" or "President Bush is stupid for (insert whatever here)" . . .I'm sorry if I offended anyone by using the term, it wasn't intended to offend (I think pf101 plays like she is somehow offended just for the show).

Here's one for you PF101 -- this will prove you that the only reason you "took offense" of my calling a Jane Doe stupid was to cause problems: since you are a self appointed defender of all people who get name-called, Osama Bin Laden is Stupid! According to you, you feel obliged to defend anyone who get's called stupid and are not around to defend themselves and that you take great offense to others calling others stupid and feel compelled to speak up. Let's hear it! (I doubt you'll defend Osama which tells me that you only defended Bill's wife to cause trouble).


Last edited by Rush on Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:35 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Rush wrote:
Actually, since you "called me out" - it was you I was referring to - Thread after thread you've attacked me personally and without merit - which has frankly become annoying. I'm interested in learning and it seems that with every thread I post you never contribute to the general concepts, rather you select minutiae detail and proceed to tell me that since the wire is disconnected, the car will never run. . .as I drive away.


Rush,

If you're going to refer to me, then do it directly, as I did with you...don't make a blanket statement about the entire discussion. Your comments to me don't bother me. I have strong opinions and I stand behind them so I'm used to that bothering people, particluarly those who also have strong opinions.

But I want to be clear: I'm not attacking you personally, I don't even know you. What I am doing is questioning some of your statements and points. If you don't want people questioning your statements or points, you might want to have JD give you admin rights so you can post your point and then close the thread so someone doesn't respond with something you don't want to read/don't want to answer.

As to WHY I've done this, I have a big problem with people who assume that their idea is right and anyone who doesn't follow it is stupid. You've said this in more than one thread and, just from the responses on this thread, I'm not the only person who has noticed it. I think that's arrogant and rude and I have no problem saying it. I also have no problems calling you out for it. I'm sorry if that upsets you but it's not in me to let people tear others down without commenting on that fact. You'll notice that I answered your question initially and didn't "attack you" until you called the woman "stupid" for not doing what you would have done. Calling someone stupid (or any other word) just for having a different opinion shows a lot about you IMO. Try to open your mind and look at things from other perspectives. You can learn a lot that way. I consider myself a pragmatist. I have very strong opinions and I'll fight/stand up for what I think is right. However, I can also disconnect myself from my opinions to look at the other side which often means I change my opinions at least slightly to fit new information. It comes in handy in every aspect of my life.

It seems to me that you really don't see how you come across in these discussions which is why I asked you your motive for posting comments like "she seems stupid". As I stated in that post, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I don't know you I don't really care about you to be frank. But I do care about people having respect for others and treating them that way which I haven't seen you do much of. In thread after thread I've seen you imply that if people don't do/think as you do then they're lacking in intelligence. That bothers me...a lot.

So, we're probably at an impasse. I think you have great info and ideas but I think you sometimes present them badly and I'm probably going to comment on that. You're free to not respond to my comments.

Have a nice day,

pf101


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:33 pm 
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You seem to be using stupid to mean "not the choices I would make". While that's a very common use of the word, it's probably not the definition that most people assume in this context. I, for one, would gladly work for less money doing something I loved doing, with people I enjoyed spending time with in a heartbeat. (Which is, I guess, obvious, given the fact that I chose a career in the arts rather than the sciences and am still working in that field unlike nearly all of my classmates.)

In actuallity I think that the desire to constantly find something "better" is the root cause of many people's financial difficulty. The HDTV is better than the SDTV, the Video Ipod is better than previous version. The steakhouse is better than McDonalds. Starbucks is better than Dunkin' Donuts (not actually true, by the way.)

Many people are so focused on the ideal of the Better, that they are unwilling to find the good in what they already have. So rather than saying, "I have a good job, with people I like. I can pay my bills and have money left over for fun and for my future." and realizing that puts them better off than 90% of the world... they say "I can make more money somewhere else, so I can't possibly be happy here."

(On a side note, in the interest of not making the Mods lives difficult, please keep your political digs to yourself or to the off-topic section of the board.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:42 pm 
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Rush wrote:
Lastly, when I have discussing with friends, family, co-workers, and the like, I often use the term "stupid" when referring to someone. Like, "That stupid guy just pulled out in from of me" or "It's seems stupid that they are not using a dolly to help them with that load" or "That gal was stupid for going fishing in the high wind" or "President Bush is stupid for (insert whatever here)" . . .I'm sorry if I offended anyone by using the term, it wasn't intended to offend (I think pf101 plays like she is somehow offended just for the show).


Since this was added after...

I'm not playing at anything. I was offended. Tearing anyone down offends me. And if you choose to use the term stupid in a casual way, that's fine, but not everyone thinks that's ok. I'm also not putting on a "show". What would be the purpose of that?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:53 pm 
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Look folks, I've never done what Tripp does. I've always done what Bill's wife is doing and what most of America is doing. Once I landed a job, the search was over. In my case, even if I didn't care too much for the job or it wasn't my "dream job" I still kept the job. I've never thought about why I automatically quit looking for something better until now, with the two incidents that occurred, and I wanted to share those thoughts with you good folks and see what you think. My intent wasn't to call someone "stupid" and then have pf101 respond with focus on that word rather than the topic. But pf101 made a big stink over that word (big surprise) which let to a pile-on which led to what a crappy employer I must be and I became frustrated - I never dreamed that using the word "stupid" would lead to such a negative, misplaced reaction.

Have you ever done something stupid that you didn't know was stupid until afterwards or maybe until you looked at what you are doing in a different light? I know I sure have. One of my stupid things was slipping into contentment for an employer for the wrong reasons. . .I never thought about it until those two events happened in my life. Never. I'm 38 and have had at least a dozen jobs, probably more. Every job I've had I immediately stopped looking for something better - I think that is stupid, but not until I had done stupid over and over. . .just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:25 pm 

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I just realized that nobody has made the obvious point:

Some spouses believe that working together would destroy their marriages. Some people work well together. Other people need more space and distinct individual identities.

It is highly possible that "comfortable where I am" is code for "if I had to spend 8 hours in an office with you every day, honey, I'd divorce or kill you and probably wouldn't that be that particular as to which."

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:24 pm 
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onebigmortarboard wrote:
Some spouses believe that working together would destroy their marriages.


LOL, ain't that the truth :)

In hindsight, I should have made up some fictional anecdotes, I was stupid, but I'll try not to do that again. It's not the semantics of that specific situation that I thought was interesting. Heck, maybe a few years ago she came inside and a crazy person scared her (can I call someone crazy? :) ) and now she doesn't want to come back. . .

I wonder what would happen if her employer cut her pay. . .if she is their because she is happy and the money is adequate (even post pay-cut), I wonder if she'd still stay. I know that with my dozen plus jobs, had any one lowered my pay even a nickel, I'm sure I'd start looking for something else in a New York minute.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:42 pm 

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I was going to jump in to say that perhaps the spouses don't want to work together and the savings on therapy alone will offset the 40% wage increase. Moreover, if you truly like the people with whom you work, you're happy doing what you're doing and you're not someone who thrives on major changes, a 40% increase may not offset all the other things you'd need to make up for an upset. How many people spend money on doughnuts, spas, new cars and the like, just to make up for a job they hate? Sometimes it's cheaper to stay where you are.

Moreover, if both spouses work for one employer, their risk is greater. Having one spouse move to a job where they get 40% more may be more strategic, since the risk is spread over 2 companies.

I'd say I'm generally a more entrepreneurial employee (when I'm not working for myself), but I also value my work environment -- so much that I've quit high-paying jobs that provide lousy work environments.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:08 pm 
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JerichoHill wrote:
I guess I am more like Tripp. When I make a move, I make a big move. I apply for positions that are above my experience/skills and use my interview skillz. Since I would apply for a challenging position, odds are I wouldn't get it. But one out of 10 times means that I get a significant bump up in pay and job responsibilities. I stay in that position until I've achieved the level of competence I set for myself (typically 3-4 years). Then its onto the next jump.


That sounds to me like a fantastic strategy: Free education and training (self-improvement) and when you move up, a better wage and a free, more advanced education. Good plan!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:59 pm 
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What struck me about the original situation that Rush described is that the two jobs are identical but one pays more. In real life (i.e. from the point of view of the person happy in the less well-paying job) its hard to believe that two jobs really are identical. Probably because they're not.

It frustrates me when I see someone unhappy in their job who doesn't leave because of inertia. I never act like Tripp and I worry that when I stop liking my job I won't be able to overcome inertia enough to leave. I've been here a while and I've built up friends amongst my colleagues.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:46 am 

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I'm actually at a point where I'm planning to refuse a raise next year because as my hourly rate goes up (I work for a consulting firm) I get priced out the work I most enjoy doing. I am increasingly forced to delegate more of the writing work I enjoy and do editing and management instead, which I enjoy a lot less. I switched careers almost 20 years ago to get out of management, and don't want to get back into it now. I've already refused several offers of promotions, so I've been officially taken off the "career advancement track" and given a new job title, but now I'm going to be even more radical and refuse a raise. But it makes sense for me; I'd much rather stay happy than earn more money. They pay me well enough that I have more than I need anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:33 am 
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Quote:
I'm actually at a point where I'm planning to refuse a raise next year because as my hourly rate goes up (I work for a consulting firm) I get priced out the work I most enjoy doing.


Now that is dedication to pursuing what will make you happy. Presumably you'll take any cost of living increase though?

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