Brad, I don't think that has anything to do with the state. I'm pretty sure I've had to enter a billing zip code at least a few times in every state I've ever visited. I think it is at the discretion of the business with whom you are doing the transaction.

Tim

I don't think I agreed with that but if I did I was mistaken. This law came from anger over a rancher being killed on his own property for no reason. He almost certainly was not killed by an unemployed Mexican seeking work. He was killed by an armed smuggler who could be any nationality. Many of the smugglers are US citizens. This law really does nothing to target them.



I think something needs to be done. We need to work with the Mexican government at the DC/DF level and at the Phoenix/Hermosillo level to address the problem of the cartels. Mexico is willing. We are not. How many times did Reagan, Bush the Elder, Clinton, W, or Obama sit down with the leadership of our biggest trading partner to discuss neighborly issues? A few, but not many...and not productively. What they get are lectures, platitudes, and invasion of their sovereignty by Federal agents that are not punished for their crimes and not turned over to Mexico for prosecution.



What you have described is racial profiling and is racism. It might be pragmatic but it is something that most believe this country can do without. Even if all crime is committed by blue people it would be unacceptable to target the other blue people with greater scrutiny or restrictions.

It is also a known fact that this area used to be a part of Mexico. Parts of it technically are (land grants). There are many, possibly the majority, who are dark skinned and Spanish speaking. The majority of illegal border crossers might fit that description but that does not mean the majority of dark skinned Spanish speakers came across the border illegally.

What has happened here is that a bunch of whackos have gotten control of the legislature and had a free-for-all. They used to be kept in check by the govenor. But when Janet Napolitano was appointed Secretary of Homeland Security our previous Secretary of State took over and she is a complete nut case so she has signed their nonsense into law. The Associated Press had a good article on this.

Entering your billing zip code is a security measure and might be set by the station owner to make his transactions qualify for lower discount fees. It has nothing to do with Arizona. have to enter it every time I get gas at my regular station a few blocks from my house.

You are actually lucky that your Canadian card is accepted at US ga stations. I ave had trouble having my US card accepted in Europe for gas. It works for everything else but often for gas they only accept cards from the particular country you are in

What is your definition of racism?

Most accepted definitions I see talk about believing that a particular race is inherently superior/inferior to another, and therefore deserving of more/fewer rights, freedoms, opportunities, etc.

Sorry, but I simply don't agree that using a physical description to identify suspects for questioning qualifies as racism. If a blue person committed a crime against you, would you choose not to tell the police that your assailant was blue? Would you prefer that the police didn't use that information to find the perpetrator? Does it make you equally upset when police use height, build, and hair color (all attributes that we are stuck with, like skin color, more or less) to identify suspects? This is nonsense. I think you are just bending over backward here to be politically correct and avoid touching the highly sensitive issue of race with even a 10-foot pole.

Tim

Definition of racism? I'll paraphrase SCOTUS and say I know it when I see it. Treating someone differently in any way because of their race is racist because it implies they have different rights than others. I simply do not like that slippery slope. There is no factual observable that a police officer could use to create suspicion that the person is not a citizen. Citizen do not look, act, smell, or talk differently than non-citizens. Until someone can show me an objective observable that might be used (and it there were one then the legislature should have defined it) I cannot understand how ANY police officer can act on the law without it being racist.


Tim, I find your arguments cogent and I do not think you are a racist. But I don't agree with you. The police should use observable data that has a reasonable correlation with crime when they are targeting people. If a tall blue woman mugged me then they should use that identifing information to search for that particular offender in the immediate proximity of time and location. They should NOT subject tall blue women to greater scrutiny weeks later and miles away. They should also not identify tall blue women as a group more likely to commit crime because even it they are more likely, it is not the tallness or blueness that makes them more likely. Those are just factors associated with an individual.

This is not just academic. When I drive down the highway in Arizona, New Mexico, or California I pass checkpoints. My white face and blonde hair gets me waved right through. My darker skinned friends often get asked "are you US citizens" or "where are you headed." This is not at the border, this is 50 miles or more from the border. I find it reprehensible. This is done by Federal agents! I think they have put an end to this atrocity recently (in the last 5 years) but it went on for over 20 years and was most ineffective!

So, yes, I am angry about this. I have no trouble admitting that. But, while you make good, logical points, the reality is that this kind of enforcement quickly defaults to blatant racism in practice and our legislature knows that. They live here too.

Fortunately this seems to be the final straw that has created anger nationwide. It is going to hurt our state economically and I understand there are protests and demonstrations planned nationwide today. Most baseball teams have spring training here and the players union is pushing a boycott of Arizona (and the 2011 all star game.) I really hope these idiots learn their lesson. I don't like the state suffering financially but I also would not like the "blood money" we woudl get if no one cared and there was no economic harm.

The law has two major problems
1) State governments cannot compel the federal government. The law does this.
2) The law will almost exclusively be applied to one group of a different skin color.

Supporters of the law believe in a fact that is not true
--That there is a relationship between the # of illegal immigrants and crime. Federal Sentencing Reports include an analysis of illegal immigration every few years. There is no evidence that communities with a higher proportion of illegal immigration have a higher crime rate. In fact, there is inconclusive evidence that it is slightly lower (I can think of many reasons why.)

I sympathize with Arizona because they now have a large flow of illegal immigrants with California's wall being completed. But this isn't the way it should be handled, because we as a society have found that "driving while black" is racial profiling. Surely, "living while Hispanic" is as well.

Boycott? I want to go live in Arizona now, and support them for having the guts to stand up against criminals, when the Feds have just been ignoring them.

I've lived in the Southwest most of my life, and I'm tired of the drug smuggling, murder and crimes that are often brought on by illegals immigrants. I've already been hit by an illegal in his van (entirely his fault), and he refused to get out of his van. He just sat there yelling "No Habla Ingles" and then peeled out. I couldn't stop him or do anything, and my insurance had to pay for the damage to my truck.

What part of "illegal" do people not get? Why do people keep trying to play the Race Card? What does Race have to do with this? Entering our country without going through the proper channels is a CRIME. In addition, people who enter illegally are spitting in the faces and walking on the backs of their brethren who enter here LEGALLY. They are line-cutters, and criminals, and the only rights they have are the Miranda Rights.

Personally, I think Arizona's new law is just one born out of desperation. They're desperate after all the shootings, drugs and murders, and they just want to uphold the Law that the Feds are ignoring. Good on them.

(edit) P.S... This whole 'Racially Profiling' thing is bogus too. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, why the hell are you calling it a Horse?
If a 6' tall blonde-haired, blue-eyed man rapes me and I report him as such, are police going to be on the look-out for a 4' tall black, brown-eyed female? Get some common sense folks. It's not like we have a huge problem of illegal immigrants from Australia.

It is the obligation of the Federal Government to secure international borders. The States do not have that authority.

There, fixed that for you. you're welcome.

And how did you know he was illegal? Or were you just assuming that since he was a brown-skinned Spanish speaker he was not properly documented and authorized to be in the United States?


Actually though we say "illegal" what we mean is undocumented. It may be a federal crime. I can't be sure without reading U.S.C. Title 18 thoroughly. On a cursory review of that Title the only crimes I could find related to this have to do with obtaining citizenship fraudulently. No one is claiming that has happened here. So these so-called illegals have merely failed to follow the proper administrative procedures. If they had in fact committed crimes they would be entitled to a jury trial before conviction and punishment (including deportation) That would be very expensive and is not what happens. So I am fairly certain that all those screaming "illegal" are simply misinformed.

Interesting that "Miranda" was an Arizona case. And Miranda is a hispanic surname. Arizona cops seem to have a history of abuse...and guys like Mr. Miranda are often the target. Might also interest you to know that the SCOTUS has recently agreed to hear another Arizona case related to police abuse that could be as significant as Miranda.



I would agree. You were frustrated when the gentleman hit you then left you holding the bag. Arizonans are frustrated with the situation, blue and green alike. But frustration is not a good reason for passing laws.

Actually, Arizona is not proposing to secure the border. They have simply made it a state crime to be in the state if not in the country legally.

There are all sorts of ever things teh feds can do if they have the guts:

- Arrest Arizona cops that comply with teh law on federal kidnapping charges
- Charge Arizona cops for intefering with interstate commerce - Some of the workers are headed for other states and interfering with their passage through the state is then of federal interest because of Congress's constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce.
- Refuse to accept detained prisoners and refuse to deport them. Arizona will be stuck feeding and clothing them in our alrey overcrowded prisons. And since they are not prisoners but simply detainees they will be entitled to greater freedoms and must be tried promptly. That will be expensive.

I hate to come down on teh cops in this situation because many of them do not agree with the law and are only doing their job. They are caught in the middle. But their first job is to protect the US Constitution and they take an oath to that effect. If they enforce teh law they are violating that oath. The proper thing for them to do is refuse to enforce it. A couple of them are already suing over this and the police union is already trying to figure out what to do.

Nice.

When the two of you are done giggling over your clever insinuation that I'm a Nazi maybe one of you can take the time to defend the validity of your analogy.

The only reason Jews in Nazi Germany were part of an illegal underground economy is because Germany specifically made it a crime to be Jewish and earn a living based on their "inferior" race/religion.

Nobody has made it a crime to be of Mexican heritage. Nobody has made it a crime for someone of Mexican heritage to earn a living. Legal US residents of ANY heritage may be stopped and questioned under this law but they will not be arrested or charged since they have done nothing illegal. It is only a crime to sneak into the country and earn an income without reporting and paying taxes on that income regardless of your heritage. So tell me again, how is this just like Nazi Germany?

Is it wrong to prosecute people for being in the country illegally? Is it wrong to prosecute people who don't report their income or pay taxes on that income? Furthermore, is it wrong to use the physical description of a criminal suspect when attempting to identify that suspect? And are you going to sit here and deny that a large number of illegal immigrants working under-the-table in Arizona are have come from Mexico?

Tim

Oh, I was just giggling. I don't think you are a Nazi. But you gotta admit it was funny!

I have not said that there is an analogy to what the Nazis did but I think arguing specifics is hardly the point. As I'm sure, we have a history of passing laws that exclude one group or another yet do not do it overtly. We debated Jim Crow laws for nearly a century. There was a sound economic basis or slavery. Yet those arguments, some by noted figures in American history, seem pathetic now.


Yes because it is not a federal crime as near as I can tell. If it were then the federal courts would have jurisdiction. What Arizona has done is to create a state crime of failing to abide by a federal administrative procedure.


No because tax evasion is a federal crime.


First part-yes. We don't use being of the hispanic race to jusify suspicion or being in the country illegally. Second part - for every person paid under the table there is another person paying them and failing to file 1099s. Let's prosecute both of them. I'm fine with that.

I know I'm coming into the debate late, and I apologize if I repeat something that has already been discussed.

I also live in Arizona, and have lived here my entire life. The problem with illegal immigration has been rampant for two decades now and people have simply gotten fed up with being ignored. The federal government has ignored its obligations to police the international border with Mexico. I think we can all agree on that, as well as agree that it is the responsibility of the federal government and not the state to secure the international border.

The state has tried several new laws to combat illegal immigration as the will of the voting public has demanded something to stop the flow of immigrants, guns, and drugs into the state.

I have read most of the comments on this law, and am amazed at some of them.



1) In what way is the state compelling the federal government?

2) The law does little other than authorize local police to enforce federal and state immigration law, in fact it requires it. That most illegal immigrants are hispanic is irrelevant. Most insider trading is done by white people, this does not mean tougher laws against insider trading is racist.



This is an interesting statistic. Basically, 1st generation immigrants of the same socio-economic class commit less crimes than people born in the United States. There are studies to prove this. However, it does not tell the whole story. Anecdotal evidence would point to the fact that the areas in Phoenix with the highest crime rates are inhabited by mainly hispanic immigrants. The facts are that poor people commit more crimes than wealthier people, and the over whelming vast majority of illegal immigrants are poor, go on to have poor US citizen children, and contribute to factors such as wage deflation that cause large sections of a city to be economically depressed. So while illegal immigrants are not inherently more evil than a US citizen, for lack of a better way of saying it, they still contribute to higher crime rates.