Dealing with financially irresponsible parents
Personal finance would be easy if it were only about the numbers. But it’s not. Money management not only requires that we master our own whims and emotions, but that we navigate the sometimes rocky waters of our personal relationships. Rachel wrote looking for help with a stormy situation. What happens when you gain control of your finances but the people around you continue to struggle? Here’s her story:
I’m having issues because I’m doing well financially and my family is not. Here is some background information: I am twenty years old and about to move out and live on my own for the first time. I live in California, but am moving to Maryland in three weeks. I am working three jobs to save money for the move, the third (and most lucrative) of which I acquired completely to put directly into my ING Direct savings account. (See? I do pay attention!) I also:
- Have about $1500 saved, and by the end of the next three weeks it will be about $3000.
- Filed my taxes on time.
- Pay my credit card off every month.
- Am planning to open a Roth IRA as soon as I have a little more for an emergency fund.
My mom, however, is drowning. My parents divorced a few years ago and were doing well financially when we sold our house. But somewhere along the way my dad developed a gambling habit and squandered all of his share of the money, and put himself into debt with the IRS. They started taking everything but what he needed for rent and basic necessities. They even took the money for child support because at that point the divorce was not finalized and they saw his child support as voluntary.
That’s when my mom’s debt started accumulating, and it’s just been piling up ever since. She already owes me about $2000 from the past year or so, and every month she asks me to borrow some money for rent, but usually she gets a check from my dad right in the nick of time. I can’t afford to lend her the money because it would put me behind in my goals, but at the same time she needs to support herself and my fourteen year old sister, and what am I supposed to do, let them just end up on the street?
She has exhausted every available resource she could possibly borrow money from, and is looking into declaring bankruptcy because her business is not generating enough income to make up for the small amount of child support she receives, and all of her debt. My dad gets paid slowly because he’s working contractually for different companies as a software consultant, and as he’s not on the regular payroll it can take weeks for the checks to come.
I don’t know how to continue to grow as a financially stable person while knowing this is going on. I don’t know how to keep myself from giving in to her need to borrow money — or should I? Which is more important, making sure my family has a home now or looking out for my retirement in 50 years? I’m just not experienced enough in the world to know how to handle this.
Some readers will say, “Give up and move on.” Others will say, “Family comes first.” But to me (and, apparently, to Rachel), it’s not that easy. There’s a balance to be found. But how? Where is that balance? It’s a difficult question. As a reference point, I consulted my library of 141 personal finance books. Do you know how many discussed this issue? One.
On page 81 of Dave Ramsey’s The Money Answer Book, he explores the question, “My parents are financially irresponsible. How can I help them? How can I forgive them for teaching me their bad habits?” His answer?
Most parents do not want their children’s advice. It’s just a fact of life. They do not want correction from their own children, especially if it’s unsolicited. The best thing you can do to help your parents is give them your personal testimony, give them a resource like this book to start them thinking, and just keep the option open so that they can come to you if they want to.
What do you think? Have you faced a similar situation before? How did you handle it? What would do if your parents did have chronic money problems? Should Rachel move out and move on? Or is her obligation to her family?
Mini-rant: Did you see that stat? One out of 141 personal finance books in my office address this subject. That’s the problem with mainstream personal finance education. It focuses on raw numbers to the exclusion of all else. And most of our financial problems come from that “all else”.
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There are 149 comments to "Dealing with financially irresponsible parents".
That’s a very very tough situation. It’s especially made more tough when the family members in question are your parents.
I hope I’m never in such a situation (and I seriously can’t see my mom or dad in such scenarios), but the question asked has no solid answer? Both are important. Your own future well being and your family’s current well being should be equally important — at least, that’s my opinion.
There’s too many variable for Rachel’s situation for me to give any worthwhile suggestions, but one thing I know for sure is that… if the father doesn’t get any help with the gambling issue, and if there’s no communication between Rachel and her mom about Rachel’s financial concerns, then things will just keep going going out of control.
Is reconciliation possible with your parents? Could they be better together than apart? Obviously, I don’t know your home situation. Divorce can be the destroyer of wealth.
For me, I’d generally only feel comfortable helping family (or friends) if they’re already making the right financial decisions. Sometimes family may want or need help with medical bills, unexpected emergencies or in financing a home. If it’s their poor decisions and lifestyle that are giving them financial problems, then I’d really hesitate to throw money at the problem. Throwing some additional money won’t make the problem go away. In that case, I might offer some educational assistance, but not straight money, and even then, only if I knew the person would be open to hearing it.
Im glad your not my daughter.
In regards to the question should you help your mother. Yes you should you would not be who you are today without her or your father. But please listen to what I have to say next so you dont make the same mistakes I made. Help your mother and sister. Would you consider shareing a flat or house with them? If not than truly only give a little of what you can afford. I made the mistake of giving to generously over a decade of continius giving not only to my parents to ensure they had a comfortable life. But also to my wifes parents and other family members. Now im getting older and wish now I had of been so generous. I dont regret the help and support I have been able to provide to my family. But I truly wish Id only given half of what I did. As I now when I need it most have nothing. There is no better feeling than helping those who love and cared for you and brought you into this world. And thats what I remind myself seeing there faces of joy and the stress going from there faces when able to help them out. Look after yourself and give a little to help but dont expect anything back and give with your heart and never mention how you did this or that latter on for that spoils your gift of love and support. If your young you will be able to manage and earn more money to look after yourself your needs and help eachother not destroying your life. Material possessions are nice. But true love and kindness will win over any material thing you want or have. As love will always look after you when you have low points in your life. Your mum will be there for you and so will your dad and sister. Good luck with your ups and downs. Give a little and be proud of yourself
Key point: this situation is not your mom’s fault.
From what you’ve said, she is financially responsible, but didn’t plan for a long-term emergency of this type. It’s your dad who’s made poor decisions, and your mom and the rest of your family shouldn’t be lumped in with him.
To my mind, this doesn’t count as “My family has made poor decisions and wants me to bail them out” so much as “My family is in trouble they didn’t expect and didn’t plan for, and they need my help.” It wouldn’t be any different if someone were sick, if the house had burned down, or if someone had stolen all the money from the bank.
That doesn’t mean you have to give checks, though. If most of the time, your dad pulls through, one issue is your mother’s financial anxiety. Work with her to help her live more frugally, and once you’ve done that, be her emergency fund. It sucks for everyone– you have to deal with family drama and family money, your mother has to tighten everyone’s belt and is having trouble adjusting, your father has his gambling problems– but you do for family.
Michelle Singletary (personal finance columnist for the Washington Post) writes about these situations from time to time. Her advice would be for Rachel to figure out how much she can comfortably give her mother or father per month without putting her too far off her goals. Give that amount and no more and don’t have any expectations of ever seeing it again. Be very clear that this is it. If it were me, I would try to get my father into Gambler’s Anonymous and my mother into a legitimate credit counseling organization. It sounds like money alone will not solve their financial problems.
Here are some columns on the subject:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/AR2006122001783.html
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2008/mar/16/michelle-singletary-the-color-of-money-if-you-be/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/12/AR2008031203701.html
I feel for Rachel. I was in a similar situation years ago. What I learned is that people who have poor money habits (or people who don’t find a way on their own) will not change until they either want to or have to. If Rachel continues to lend her mother money, her mother will never have the need to figure out how to make it on her own. It may sound harsh, but I find it interesting that Rachel is working three jobs — how many jobs is her mother working? It sounds as though her mother has had a difficult time, but many people have had difficulties and manage to do what is necessary to cope with their situations without sucking money away from their children who are just starting out.
Ultimately, I see no real benefit to Rachel’s dumping more and more money into her mother’s rent fund. Congratulations to Rachel, though, for getting her own financial house in order and for starting off on the right foot!
Regarding to mini rant: Sounds like a great book idea for you, J. D. Talk about an unfilled, but much needed niche! 🙂
Yup, telling parents what to do is not a good idea. Talking about what you do with them is fine and may plant the idea. Part of life is learning that you can’t help people who don’t want to be helped (or control people who don’t want to be controlled).
The question is much more complicated than whether or not the parents are financially irresponsible, or just unlucky. Many, maybe most parents sacrifice savings, forgo luxuries, etc in order to provide for their kids. Private schools, hobbies, sacrificing to live in a better school district, all cost lots of money. Money that a rational analysis would certainly say belongs in savings. However, family isn’t rational. It’s quite possible that parents are at least partially under water financially because of the things they did to provide a good childhood. It’s not as simple as coldly deciding that your parent’s should have been putting 10% away every month. That’s hard to do when they are paying $500 a month for ice skating, or a horse, or private school, or whatever.
The real world simply isn’t that black and white. I’d agree that you definitely do not want to feed destructive personal behavior around gambling, drugs, etc. But uninformed decision making, or somebody that is the victim of a divorce or unexpected medical bills is a different issue.
Tough call. You can prepare for the future all you want and get smeared by a bus tomorrow. And all your storehouses are for naught. In the meantime, the woman who raised you and helped you to be the responsible young adult you are, is struggling. Sit with her and figure out what needs to be done. Is this a short term problem? Is she taking adequate care of your younger sister while she struggles with this?
I guess the best answer is, at the end of the day can you look at yourself in the mirror and be happy with the choice you made? If this were me, yes, I’d put my future on hold for a time and help out the woman who gave me life. At least until she can get a handle on her situation.
But What if she never gets a handle, and now your future is on hold indifferently?
Whenever folks call in to the Dave Ramsey show with these types of questions, he tells them to read the book, “Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No” by Henry Cloud. It might be helpful in your situation.
I have to agree — from the sounds of this, it isn’t his mother’s fault.
You could offer to go through finances with her to see if you can figure out any ways for her to save. You could see if you can find them a more affordable place to live. You could stock her groceries — it would still cost you money, but, it doesn’t translate to “money spigot” the same way as a check.
You should also see whether she qualifies for any assistance. And… at last resort, Chapter 11 sometimes is the way to go.
Figure out what you *can* do without damaging yourself. And take a good look at what “damaging” really means long and short term. If you’re moving to a job with a better salary, it may be easier to “make up” the costs to you now.
I don’t believe that you “always” help family, but, I can’t see giving “tough love” when it’s not the other person’s fault. Sit down with your mother & sibling and see if you can find a way for the three of you to pitch in to help out for a while, and, know exactly what you can give. Mom might have to think about a new job or a second job. Or… sibling might think about a job (though at fourteen there aren’t a lot of places willing to hire you). I’ve known people who started working at that age because of family financial problems.
See JD, there’s the title of your book “Get Rich Slowly, It’s not all about the numbers” 🙂
Great article. This lady is in a tough situation. I’m not sure how I would handle it, but I tend to lean toward the “leave people alone” strategy. Her Mom ultimately needs to learn how to support herself.
I can empathize with Rachel. I am a bit older than she but have several of the same elements in my story. My parents are still together but have spent a lifetime making poor financial decisions. What’s worse is that they’ve passed their behavior on as “normal” to my younger siblings.
My 25 year old sisters have moved back in with them to help with bills. The really sad part is that they are living in a four bedroom rental that they’ve been in for almost 20 years. They could own it by now. I’ve encouraged them to downsize and apply some of the personal finance principals that I use, but as other posters have noted, giving financial advice to your parents is a difficult propisition. Kiyosaki is right about the need for families to discuss money in an open manner without shame or embarrassment.
My 22 year old brother was recently injured at college and I found out that he doesn’t have insurance. When I asked why he was not participating in his School’s insurance plan, I was told that my parents (who have no business paying for his expenses) could not afford the $125.00 per month insurance payment. I later found out that they’re paying an allmost equal amount in fraternity dues for him.
I love my parents and hate to see them fail time and time again but the conversation turns ugly whenever the topic of finance comes up. I like DR’s suggesstion that you give them your testimony and a copy of TMM or something similar and wish for the best. Do not jeopardize your financial well being for the sake of those that willingly jeopardize their own – even family.
I have been in a similar situation with my sister, although it’s my parents who keep bailing her out, not me. What I have seen is that if she thinks our mom and dad will send her a check, she will not take on an additional job, or move to a cheaper apartment, or make any other tough decisions. She “needs” the bigger apartment and free time to do her art, you see. So she puts off making hard fiancial decisions because she *can*.
Rachel says that her mom’s business isn’t making enough money. So does she need to take on a second job, or close down her business and go work for somebody who will pay her a higher salary? Move to a cheaper apartment? Now that the divorce is final, can her dad go back to the IRS and make the case that more child support is a legitimate obligation?
If her mom can’t count on the child support, she has to figure out how to make it without that money. But she won’t, as long as she thinks Rachel might bail her out. Because these kinds of changes – cutting back and getting another job – really are agonizingly hard. People will take the alternative if there is one.
Rachel, your mom sounds pretty resourceful and I doubt she’ll end up on the street. She’s coped so far. I think she will be OK if you don’t help out. And if you don’t help now, you have set a precedent that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life. Otherwise, your family might continually play these brinkmanship games with you … “oh Rachel, I’m one rent check away from being evicted … just $300 … I don’t know what to do…think of your sister.” It will get worse if you don’t stop this now.
I don’t think people who play these financial games with their loved ones are necessarily being irresponsible or wrong – their family has trained them to do it. If you reward your loved ones for sliding helplessly into disaster, then sliding into disaster and calling for help *will become their coping strategy.* My sister is a bright, hardworking, wonderful person, but she has totally fallen into this pattern; and because it keeps working, she keeps doing it. As harsh as it sounds, if she had ever had to spend one night on the street because she was out of money and all her friends were sick of letting her sleep on their couches, I am positive that she would ensure that she never, ever had to do it again.
I have *never* given her a dime, even though I could afford it. So money is actually not an issue between us. I hope to God it never will be. I actually save extra for retirement every month because she has no savings, and I fear she will have to come live with me when she’s too old to work. But I have never told her this, because I believe that if she’s aware she has this option to fall back on, it will become her Plan A, and I would rather it be Plan C or higher!
Don’t get me wrong, I love my sister, but teaching her to be dependent on me would harm our relationship. It would be different if she were disabled or mentally ill; but she’s a healthy, intelligent person, which is sounds like your mom is too.
So consider *not* bailing your mom out to be yet another smart step you are taking as you step out into your future. You sound like really have your head on straight. Good for you! You can give your mom love, moral support, little non-finanical gifts, cards, etc. to show that you understand that she is going through a tough time and that you care about her. Giving her money is not the answer.
Would her problems be solved by getting a job, moving to a smaller house, or even simply cutting unnecessary expenses? If the house won’t sell, can she rent a room out?
Most likely some combination of those things would solve your mom’s financial problems, although her standard of living might decline a bit (a common result of divorce, sadly).
I don’t think you should sacrifice your plans just because your mom is going through a rough patch. It may sound cold but be realistic — you can’t be a surrogate husband who provides financially for your mom forever. Significant changes need to be made, it’s just a matter of when. In the meantime continue supporting her with what you can spare, i.e. your standard of living will also suffer. Cut unnecessary expenses, get a roommate, etc. That’s the extent to which you should sacrifice, though — don’t give up your career plans, education plans, OR financial security plans.
Too many things missing here about mom. How old is she? Is her rent reasonable? Does she have a job? The answers to these questions change whose “fault” it is.
It’s a fine line between enabling a mooch and supporting someone in honest need.
There are a lot of variables to this. Is she already living frugally? Has she gotten a second job? Has she worked out a plan, even if it just means buying a Dave Ramsey or other type of financial book to start? If she’s doing everything she possibly can and still can’t make ends meet, maybe it is time to file bankruptcy.
If your mom is already doing all she can, maybe you should set aside a certain amount that you can comfortably give. Don’t give it to her if she isn’t in need, but if she comes to you about rent, that’s what you can give. You’ll need to find a balance between reaching your financial goals and helping out your mom, but I don’t think you should do one and not the other…IF she’s doing all she can right now.
It doesn’t sound like the mom is financially irresponsible, it sounds like she is trying to recover from her former husband’s gambling problems and the financial devastation of a divorce.
If I were the OP I would totally help the mom and sister (the sister clearly is not at fault in this situation) if I could. Now, the OP says she can’t help her mom/sister and accomplish her own financial goals.
What I might do is start a mom/sister emergency ING fund and start putting money into the fund and if the mom is in a real crisis (i.e. going to become homeless or a medical emergency) I would dip into the fund and help out. If that emergency doesn’t come up then the OP puts that money towards her own emergency fund or retirement. I wouldn’t expect the mom to ever pay back the funds (if she does fabulous, but if you expect the loan to be repaid it will change the relationship). I would also send her Ramesy’s TMM or another similar book.
I helped out my Mom when she was in a crunch with taxes/mortgage. I was just starting out in my job and had no money myself but I took a cash advance from a 0% credit card (yikes!) to help her. My mom never ‘technically’ paid me back but she had raised me, paid for college (along with Dad) and helped me with professional school costs. And since then she is now retired with no money worries. She also gave us money for our wedding and other large gifts. We never discussed the loan and I don’t expect we will, our relationship is good. I’m glad I could help her at the time.
If you live at home, you need to help. However Mom needs a plan, because her situation isn’t working and when you move you don’t need to help. Although you may want to. To cite the author JD mentioned Dave Ramsey has a scale of baby steps, and helping others comes after your set up with your emergency fund and retirement.
If she doesn’t have a way to make more, she needs to spend less. I suppose that means moving; maybe even low-income project since the divorce has changed her situation so badly.
There is no right or wrong answer to this. I was in this exact situation but even worse and for a much longer period of time (technically you could say I’m still in this situation).
I could tell you my story and will if requested, but in my shoes this started in my later years of college and still goes on til today (6 years). In my case, my father’s ex-wife’s refusal to pay child support and my father’s exhaustion from money struggles for nearly a decade has had major effects. I’ve literally “lent” tens of thousands of dollars to my father that I have no expectation of ever seeing because of my two younger brothers.
In the end, you spare/share what you can but you should not stop working towards your goals to do so. Once you start sacrificing goals or important events in your life, you will start resenting your mother no matter what you think. I also agree with Dave Ramsey that people don’t change and your parent(s) will not listen to financial advice from their children.
No matter what people think, there’s always another resource or option a person can turn to. It’s the limits a person puts on him or herself that prevents that person from reaching those resources.
I really feel for this person, it is such a difficult situation.
I also have to agree with JD on the personal finance books. Forever I was reading them but they did nothing for me because none addressed the emotional stuff like compulsive shopping, our culture of consumerism, etc. Personal finance blogs like this one have given me hope.
I agree with Ben, Jon, and others above. The problem seems to be the mother’s anxiety. Monetary aid isn’t the best solution. It seems like the mother is trying to hang on to a failing small business. One way to minimize anxiety is to search for a stable job and pursue frugal lifestyle change.
@ COD – If you’re paying for ice-skating lessons or *a horse* for your child and then are in a position a few years later to consider bankruptcy, it’s likely that “luck” didn’t have much to do with things.
😉
It sounds like your mother still keeps an eye on her finances, which is positive. I think you should keep the lines of communication open with her to make sure she is still getting along, but you shouldn’t kill yourself to keep both yourself an another person afloat. Considering you’re moving to Maryland, the $3000 saved is a good start but won’t last long here. I moved to Baltimore metro about two years ago, and it took about 6 months to recover from those expenses (even with a better salary and a tight budget / savings plan).
Good luck with your family, but make sure you don’t cripple yourself in a new / possibly more expensive environment.
A friend of mine, Tom, financially counseled a friend of his, Brian, personally for 18 months to help him get out of credit card debt. All money earned and spent went through Tom. Over the course of these 18 months Brian learned which of his spending was pointless and he’s now paid off all his credit card debt.
I guess what I’m saying is, if your Mom is already borrowing from you, then I think you have license to ask her to let you partner with her in her finances. Chances are there are things that can be changed to help her lower her spending and get by on what she has.
Oy, what a tough question. I would recommend including a “help Mom” item in the budget and figuring out how much she can afford to give each month. The thing is, she doesn’t necessarily have to give it – she can keep it in a savings account and let it build up. When/if Mom needs money, she raids that account. And if Mom gets to the point where she doesn’t need the money, then Rachel can invest it. Adding this item to the budget may mean re-adjusting her personal goals, but at least this way it is predictable. Depending on how much Mom usually asks for and how much Rachel can set aside each month, she may want to “seed” the savings account so that the first request for money doesn’t de-rail the plan.
You’ve got to look after yourself first. Period. Helping out someone who can’t manage their money just ruins your financial security. They won’t manage the money you give them any better than they managed money they sqaundered. The best thing you can do is take care of yourself, and if you do really well in the future, then you can help them out. Don’t make them dependents because then they’ll count on you. I’ve seen this happen in my family. It’s not pretty.
Of course, if you have a close relative or friend who manages their money well but falls on hard times, by all means help them out as best as you can. With a gift of money, not a loan. Don’t go there at all.
It sounds like this is largely not Mom’s fault; Dad has left her in a bad spot. It may be she is not making the wisest money choices — if she was used to living well, she may be a hard time learning how to live within a much more limited income (I know — I grew up in an upper middle class family and took years to adjust to a lower income life). Just leaving Mom to deal with her financial problems seems a little harsh to me under the circumstances.
I would urge Rachel to ask herself the following questions:
— If I come from a religious background, what do my beliefs say about this situation?
— What is the most loving thing to do? Sometimes, the most loving thing is, indeed, to make someone deal with the consequences of bad choices. Sometimes, it is helping someone out.
— If my mother is generally trying to make good choices but not always succeeding, how can I help her make better choices? If I were trying but sometimes failing, how would I want her to treat me?
— Did my mother make sacrifices for me while I was growing up (at least one other person has mentioned this)? How can I repay her now?
— Do I buy into the American notion of everyone being independence, or will I choose interdependence instead (which is not the same as co-dependence)? If so, how can I live this out with my mother?
— What are my options, beyond just giving my mother money? Could she and my sister move across the country with me and share a home with me, with my mother contributing to the household expenses just as I would if I lived with her? Are there other ways I can help?
Hopefully these questions will help Rachel figure out some possible solutions to a tough problem.
It makes no sense for Rachel to try to bail debt out of her mother’s sinking boat if the debt is coming in faster than what Rachel can afford to put in. That’s just delaying the inevitable.
I think there’s a middle ground between Rachel moving away and offering no assistance, and staying and putting all her money towards trying to save her mother’s financial shipwreck.
I think the best thing for Rachel to do is to move out and get her emergency fund built up solidly. Moving out will probably reduce her mother’s expenses, and will give Rachel a chance to get on sound financial footing. If Rachel is seriously worried that her mother and sister will end up on the street, then she shouldn’t move to Maryland, but keep her current 3 jobs and move to someplace in the same city. Then if her mother and sister need a place to stay, she’s got that covered. She can always help her family in non-monetary ways, but that becomes much harder to do if she’s far away.
It makes no sense for Rachel to drown herself if she has no hope of saving her mother from impending crisis. Sure take a hit if it’s going to fix things, but will it fix things?
Decide what you *can* afford. If that’s $600/year or $6000/year, just know what that number is. Find some balance between meeting your goals maybe a little more slowly, but also understanding that you’re better able to help them when your financial house is in order.
Once you’ve got that number, you’ve got a baseline beyond which you can tell your mom “I’m sorry, I just can’t afford that”.
Don’t plan on ever getting paid back for any of the money you give your mom.
If you think she’d be receptive, give her a personal finance book focused on getting out of debt. It might be helpful if you bring it up saying you just found it, you really like it, and would like her opinion on the topics it discusses, or something like that.
It’s definitely a tough situation, because, as others have said, you can’t sacrifice your livelihood to support your family, but they’re still your family.
Get your sister a personal finance book now, in hopes of helping her avoid learning the wrong lessons.
I would recommend the PF/etiquette book “Isn’t It Their Turn To Pick Up the Check?” for help on this. For me, I don’t know what to do- I am in situation that is quite similar, and I can’t say I have a better answer.
I think the one thing that stuck out to me was that Mom has her own business, and Dad works non-regularly. I think the number one piece of financial advice I could offer is- get a “real” job, or at least a steady one- yes, it might be more fun to have your own business and be your own boss, but if you need money and are considering bankruptcy, it may be time to start filling out applications.
Also, are Mom and Dad actually divorced yet? A cheap divorce, followed by mandatory child support payments, might help. Maybe Rachel can help pay for the divorce?
It’s perfectly reasonable for Mom to ask Rachel, at 20 & apparently not a student, to contribute to rent. I think she should write off the $2000 loan & tell her Mom to think of it as rent money — but also make it clear that there’s no more where that $2K came from.
Then Rachel can focus on herself and, if she’s able, her sister. Mom was divorced several years ago, not just a few weeks or months ago — the time of crisis is over, and it’s time for her to take care of herself. (Yeah, Dad should make his support payments properly, but it’s not Rachel’s fault that he doesn’t. That’s between Mom & Dad.)
I know it’s easier said that done to cut off family. But based on my experience with parents’ financial struggles, band-aid loans and gifts don’t change parents’ habits, and they interfere with kids’ attempts to establish new, better habits for themselves. By setting an example for her sister, Rachel may be able to break this generation of her family out of the cycle of month-to-month, paycheck-to-paycheck living — a far greater gift than a few dollars here and there.
I am sorry if I repeat something above for I did not completely read all of the comments. But from my experience, giving money to anyone in debt is the wrong thing to do. They have gotten into spending habits that need to be broken and if they have another source of income, well that’s what you will become. I learned this from my mother, who raided my bank account. She quickly was taken off because I closed the account. Her spending habits never have changed and now she is living on a fixed government subsidized income in a decent housing project with no car and health issues that limit her mobility.
Individuals have to change their own spending habits, no matter how old they are. Just don’t give them money, that doesn’t give them the incentive to change anything.
If you’re moving out of home, maybe your mother could move to a smaller place or else take a boarder into your old room. That could help with her finances.
Help your mother with the budget and talk to her about your concerns. Also talk to your dad and urge him to get help if he hasn’t already.
Decide whether you feel more comfortable being an emergency fund when your mother needs to borrow money, or whether you would prefer to give a set amount each money that at least you can budget for.
Hopefully it’s only for a couple of years until your sister is a little older.
You have my full sympathy. I also think it’s ridiculous that the IRS could take child support money – something that is mandatory for him to pay (or at least it is in other countries). In most other western countries your mother would qualify for the single parent’s pension (ie. welfare) – is that the case where you are? It sounds like it’s much needed and a good use of taxpayers’ money.
JD-Too many facts that aren’t known. On the surface it sounds like the mom is semi responsible and the dad isn’t. That being said, it isn’t just the father that got them in trouble.
It sounds harsh, but you have to cut through the emotion before you can solve the problem or give advice. Listen to Dave Ramsey. What does he do?
-He empathizes (not sympathizes) with the caller. This helps him connect so they are willing to share. It also helps the caller to set aside the emotion and get to the problem.
-Once he has connected and gotten to fact, he begins to ask questions. He also questions their answers to get to the facts and the root cause.
-He only gives advice when he has all the facts.
Dave is an expert having done this for years. He has motivated callers who want him to help. We are in a different situation when it comes to family. First, we aren’t nationally known experts. Second, not parent wants to share their financial problems. If they have to come to you they will tell you the minimum.
I have personal experience with this. Without going into details, the rest of my family is a financial wreck. None were open to discussing the problem or finding solutions. There came a point where I had to turn my back on the problem and walk away.
Rachel has to watch out for herself first. This isn’t being greedy or selfish. It is the first step of financial health. If her parents are not willing to discuss the facts and look for a real solution…
Let me rewind a few years to 20, or even 19: I was working 50-70 hours a week at two jobs, had transferred from a college 1200 miles away to one that was within commuting distance of my mom’s house, had moved back in to help my mom with the bills, and was doing all the grocery shopping. My mom had a low-paying ($35k/year) job and didn’t know how to get anything better; her credit was still damaged from her ridiculous and protracted divorce six years prior, so all her debt was piling up at inflated interest rates.
I took what I now view as the bad road: an ever higher percentage of my earnings (it became 60+%) went toward stocking the fridge, keeping the lights on, covering my mom’s medical expenses, etc. The rest went to my college expenses, and none of it was left for savings – the gaping financial hole in my mother’s life swallowed anything I had left over (and I wasn’t strong enough to resist her guilt trips and my own feelings of obligation). I sacrificed seven years of compounding (in the end, what I spent would be worth more than $80k today) while I tried to help my mother take a better path. I burned out completely after two years and moved back to an out-of-state college.
I had hoped to help her smooth over the rough patch, get her back on her feet, show her how to be more responsible with her money, and support her while she found a more lucrative job. Guess what? Almost 8 years later she STILL asks me for money, doesn’t make more than $40k, and has gotten in and out of debt through credit cards and HELOCs more times than I care to recall.
It wasn’t my mom’s fault that her spousal/child support was a raw deal, and she really was left in the lurch when my father split. She’s out of viable excuses now.
I feel bad, sometimes, that I have a positive net worth even with my student loans, and that I’m on target to retire early with more than enough cushion. I know my mother needs to retire and literally can’t because she will lose her house. It’s a strange and difficult situation that I deal with day by day.
If your mom learns money management, great! Don’t get sucked into this spiral. Your mom could do the things you want to do – get a roommate, get another job, eat cheap food, put a freeze on non-essential expenses, etc. She has to see the truth of the situation and decide for herself to move forward. If she doesn’t, well…I feel your pain. Good luck.
Not knowing the specifics your mom needs to look at the following: 1)Can she increase her income by finding a better job, instead of having her own business, 2) Get a second job to supplement the business, 3) lower expenses by moving to a cheaper area or cut back on things, or 4) move in with someone else to split expenses like a friend or someone else who might me be struggling.
Sounds like she should only be paying the basics now like rent, food, utilities, and care for her kids. No extra school costs or college, minimal on clothes for everyone. No eating out. The big change necessary is to increase income.
I am in her shoes also. My mom has been in financial difficulty as long as I can remember and I’ve given her tens of thousands of dollars up to this point (I’m in my late twenties). I see no end, but I am doing very well financially and I don’t think I can ever say, ‘it’s your problem, not mine’. I now pay for her health insurance and one of her credit card debt. I have no idea what I am going to do when she retires. She could sell her house, but she would be losing so much money if she sells it at this time. The hardest part about this is not letting it strain your relationship with your mom. It’s hard when I expect her to be my guardian – but I am trying to accept the shift in roles.
My 2 cents.
I believe Rachel has gotten the responsbility at very young age and I commend her for thinking about her family and at the same time being so practical. As other readers have already asked some of the questions like
1) does her mom work?
2) can her mom and sister move to Baltimore with her? ( since California is way too expensive)
3) Do they want the Dad in their future lives? (Sometimes, emotional stress of a bad relationship can bring you down, financially and emotionally)
I am not relationship expert, but one thing I believe in – FAMILY COMES FIRST. Money will come and go, but you have to put the family (or at least parents) before money. Your parents go through a lot to raise you, the least you can do is help them financially for few years.
If I was Rachel, I would move everybody to Baltimore, help mom find a job and live very frugally for next few years ( or at least until the younger sister turns 20).
You are just 20 (it’s great that you are thinking of your retirement at VERY young age), however, waiting for 5 more years and helping your family will give you a sense of satisfaction that no money will ever be able to. Plus, good things happen to good people, so think positive!
Good luck Rachel.
Unfortunately I have had plenty of experience in this catigory. What I learned is that you don’t give people cash or check. If they need food, go to Aldies or a discount store and buy the food. If they need to pay rent, make the check out to the person or company renting the house. I only make the payment or buy the food after they have agreed to sit down and make a plan to get themselves out of trouble. If they refuse, then they are just wanting a someone else to be responsible and are making excuses not to take responsibility for their own problems. If they refuse to figure out how to fix their problem, I will help them once,after that they are on their own.
You don’t have to buy the Dave Ramsey book, the library will lend it to you for free along with other books and programs on CD. One other book that may help both of you is the Tightwad Gazette.
I do agree that you should help out a little since you life with your mother. But she shouldn’t be dependent on you or your father for paying her bills. She needs to do that. Some people do not take responsibility for thier own finances until they absolutely have to and they emotionally hit bottom.
After my divorce I had money taken out of my ex-husbands check to help me pay for bills that he ran up. I began to panic when it came to the end of the checks. But after sitting down with a financial advisor, I realized that I was doing better than I thought and really didn’t need that check anymore. I just became dependent on it and paniced. But when the checks stopped coming I found other ways to save money and finish paying off credit cards and loans without any problems.
You may just have to exercise some tough love. Your mother will find a way to survive when she is forces to. You are not responsible for your mother. Your mother is responsible for your mother. You can’t force people to change, you can only change yourself.
Good Luck on your new job and your move. I hope your mother gets back on her feet soon.
One other finance book that does address this is Love and Money: A Life Guide to Financial Success by Jeff Opdyke. Having said that, it sounds like he completely comes from a different situation than your emailer does. Opdyke’s parents have been consistently irresponsible throughout his whole life, and his response to bailing out parents is based on that.
You’re only twenty. You probably are not as well off as you think. See how you’re doing after you move out. Make sure your solid before helping anybody. Otherwise, two of you will be in trouble.
Love your blog, I check it two or three times a day.
My frustration with most personal finance books, guru’s and advice givers is that compassion isn’t in their vocabulary. Saving is vital, paying off debt is vital, but family and the needy are more important. Even Dave Ramsey, as great as he is, doesn’t influence people enough to focus on those around them. This girl’s situation is quite difficult, if she goes it’ll break her own heart. If she stays, it’ll be awesome to see her bless her mom, but really tough on her own psyche. It’s shameful that personal finance experts influence people to be extremely selfish with their finances rather than to be giving people.
Nowhere did I read anything about how this young woman was paying her share of the expenses at home. Perhaps she just left that out, but it’s been a big beef of mine when earning grown children expect their parents to pay all their expenses for them. It really steams me up and I see it all the time: selfish grown children who think everything is for them them them.
This young woman should be paying 1/3 the food bill, 1/3 the electric bill, 1/3 the cable bill, 1/3 the rent, 1/3 the insurance, 1/3 the heat… she talks about “loaning” money to her mother, but seriously, this shouldn’t be a loan. From what I read, it doesn’t sound like she’s even carrying her OWN weight, let alone being forced to help carry the weight of the people who ought to mean the most to her.
I do not think it is this child’s place to lecture her mother on how best to handle money, but I do think it’s this child’s place to pay her fair share at least. Doesn’t matter what the father should or shouldn’t do. This is a grown-up now, and she needs to step up to the plate and do what needs doing.
J.D. – So is that topic going to be in your book? That could be a great new direction and could fit really well if your book is based more on personal experiences and not just the numbers. I’m purely speculating here
How much is Rachel contributing on the rent front, in total? I don’t think having to help with some of the shared living costs is too much to ask – if she’s 20 and living at home, not going to school, working, how is living with her mom different than living anywhere else? I’m guessing she’ll be paying rent when she moves to MD, right?
I second/third/whatever the commenters who asked why Mom isn’t taking up a second job. The sister is 14 – can she be babysitting on the weekends for her own spending money? I do not agree, however, that Rachel should move the family to MD with her. She doesn’t really have *that* much money to cover her own moving expenses, and her mother would probably resent the infantile treatment. It’s not a simple solution either with Mom having a business of some sort and Little Sister in high school. Best of luck to her though.
In my culture, we would do absolutely anything for our families, even if they had made their own mistakes.
That being said, though Rachel is doing well for a 20-year old, she is not well off enough to support a family of 3. Loaning her mom money would only put Rachel in debt and delay – but not halt- the bankruptcy. (And the whole family might need the money in case of an emergency). Rachel needs to work with her mother to reduce costs or figure out how to increase her mother’s income. Loaning the kind of money Rachel could afford would be like placing a small bandaid on a gushing wound. You have to watch out for your family, but you need to find a plan that has a chance of succeeding.
Hopefully the person writing is paying for room and board while living at home.
That said: Its worth noting that its not like the person writing in is really doing *that* well. Considering she’s 20, she’s doing well. But she doesn’t have much of an emergency fund and is about to move out on her own. Its not like she has accumulated big savings.
Is Mom’s income low because her business isn’t doing well? If she could cover her bills by getting a “regular job”, then Mom needs to do just that. End of story. (I have lots of respect for entrepreneurs and small business owners, but not when it means leaning on family to support yourself or your child.)
This is a BIG issue in my family. I’m 26. My older sister is 34. My little sister is 22. Our parents are pretty much broke. My little sister *finally* after so many months and years of being a financial strain on the entire family, has found a full time job and kept it.
My older sister caves in a lot when the family needs money — she earns the most and is doing pretty well. After a few years of bad financial decisions, I’m finally doing well also (paid off CCs, got some savings, opened a Roth IRA, etc).
I used to be willing to give money to my little sister when she needed it for emergencies, but the problem was that every couple weeks, another emergency would come up. Finally I said, look, either get on a budget and stick to it (and I’ll help!) or I’m not giving you any more money. Well we made up a budget for her, but she did not stick to it. So I cut the purse strings. I started paying the phone bill for my mother instead (I’m on her family plan) and said mom, you deal with it. The money is going to you instead. So I shifted the burden. If my parents really wanted to fix the situation, they’d put their foot down with my little sister. (They never did.)
Fortunately, she finally found a job before everyone hit rock bottom. I still give her money to help pay for her medications (no health insurance yet), but now that she has a steady income I’m asking her to pay me back.
My parents are still poor, but they have their own life decisions to make, and I’m trying to do my best to establish a decent lifestyle for myself so that I’m never a burden on them or society in general. And that’s what it comes down to.
Figure out where your values lie and draw up the boundaries. You’ve gotta take care of yourself first.
It sounds like this family is trying to do things on their own, and should be finding out what the community offers — there may be a state program to ensure that the child care comes through, and with a 14 year old in the home, there are probably some other social programs to help her. Often, it is hard for people to let the rest of the world know that things aren’t working, but R’s mother should be talking with her church if she has one, with her local authorities and so on, not just depending on family members who are not in a good position to help.
Wow. My comment probably won’t even be seen in this sea of responses!
Anyway, I think children have an obligation to their parents and immediate family members, just as their parents had an obligation to the child. Just as the parents shouldn’t allow a child to starve or do without, just because it would get in the way of the parent’s personal financial goals, so the child should not treat a parent that way.
Now, if the parent were getting herself into this mess, or if she were refusing to do things to make her situation better, then I can understand withholding financial assistance to a certain extent. (But not to the extent that her mother becomes homeless, or she’ll have bigger problems than a mom who asks for help with the rent from time to time!)
Parents often give up an enormous amount to raise a child. It seems inconceivable to me that the child should be unwilling to help the parent out later because it will interfere with her financial goals. Note that it’s not because she’d be doing without food or shelter, but because it would interfere with her goals. I’m flabbergasted.
Having said that, the mother should get a real job that pays a steady income, possibly get a roommate, sell things she doesn’t need, and do whatever else she can to help herself. Maybe the daughter can sit down with her mom and say, “You need to do a, b, and c, and then I will do x, y, and z to help you.” It shouldn’t be all one-sided (if that’s the case).
I stayed up late working on future entries. I woke up late, too, and what did I find? Fifty outstanding comments. You folks never cease to amaze me.
I think all these responses are great. And I wouldn’t worry if you think you response won’t be seen. I have a feeling Rachel will read through all of these.
Thanks, everyone.
I’ve been down this road too with my own parents, as recently as a couple of years ago. My parents had absolutely no money sense and, as a result, neither did their kids. My father always drove old wrecks that had to be pushed downhill to start in the mornings……and, lo and behold, I get a phone call from my mother. My father, as usual, hadn’t bothered with oil changes or maintenance and their car had taken its last crap in the driveway. Could I give them the money to buy a new car? My mother sounded like she was about to hang herself so …. I wired the money they needed to buy a car they had already seen on a dealer lot. They bought the car AND I never saw one thin dime in the form of a repayment. Fast forward a couple of years and they are in the exact same boat again …. the nice car (I) they bought? My father forgot to put oil in the engine and the engine seized right before my mother got on the freeway. No more car. They asked for more money and told them straight – NO. I told them they were going to have to either save or borrow because I just couldn’t afford it with 4 kids to provide for.
My advice to Rachel is this: You should help only as far as you are financially able. Parents who are financially dependent upon their children are basically people who, for whatever reason, CHOOSE not to change their relationship with money. Parents like this also cultivate a sense of entitlement with their children – what’s yours is mine. Wrong. If you keep propping up your mother financially it will NEVER end. Ask to see her finances and find out what she’s spending money on. Help her to see where she can cut back. Help her to figure out how to live on what money she has coming in right now. Then, discuss what it is she can do for herself to become more financially independent. If it means going back to school to acquire skills she doesn’t have, that’s what she has to do. If it means losing cars or property (if any) then so be it. Your family should not be looking to you as their breadwinner. By all means, help out where you can and IF you can but there has to be line drawn otherwise you WILL be the breadwinner. Permanently.
If there’s one other thing I’ve learned in this life it’s this: Easy come, easy go. That cliche was true indeed when it came to the car I bought for my parents.
Tough one but not impossible to deal with.
It is about boundaries and they can get smashed by family members. If it were a business proposition, would that change the equasion.
You could sit down and work out a fair contribution that you could have made after 18 years of age for living at home ( so if there are 4 of you 25% of the living expenses).
Secondly you could draw up a contract similar to the one we offer our children : yes you can borrow money from us but I want the amount in writing with negotiated interest rate and a payment date. That way its a business deal : they pay you back with interest and everyone knows where they stand.
This is all great advice. I loaned money to my dad once, and then realized it wasn’t a good idea. I have since given gifts of money to family members, but I don’t loan it anymore. It creates too much stress.
Also, Dave calls it Powdered Butt Syndrome. Nobody wants to take advice from somebody whose diaper they have changed.
It is a good idea to find someone that they trust and will listen to, and have that person give the gift of a personal finance book.
I think she should help her family, but she needs to define “help” correctly. Helping does not mean enabling, and it does not mean throwing money down a black hole. Her mom needs a long-term solution, not triage from her daughter every month. Her mom and sister need to learn financial skills and financial responsibility. Her mom’s living costs sound low, so her “business” is obviously crap if she can’t live on the profits. The mom needs to get realistic and get a real job. Or a second or third job if she wants to keep her business. Like others have said, the sister also needs a job. I worked since I was 11 or 12, and it was only a benefit – I learned work skills and how to save money young, and I built a great resume for future jobs.
I hope that this woman goes on with her own life, stops acting as a non-stop emergency blanket to her family, and gives her family the opportunity (if they choose to take it) of learning to be financially responsible and getting more employment.
This is my second post –
Sorry I didn’t read carefully that her mom runs a business. My bad ! But obviously the business isn’t doing so great. So leave that and get a regular job?
Thanks
When making a decision like this, I would suggest you put yourself in your mom’s shoes. Playing devil’s advocate here: She has just been through a devastating event and is struggling just to pay her rent and put food on the table. Now her daughter, who she made sacrifices to raise, is in a position to help her out but is hesitating because she wants to fund her savings accounts.
Another way to look at it is whether your savings accounts should really take priority over your mother’s and sister’s basic needs?
@Anne: the daughter didn’t ask her mother to make whatever sacrifices she did to raise her. I’m a bit tired of parents acting like their children are insurance policies and that their children owe them something. Whatever happened to the joy of having children in the first place?
There’s a reason why flight attendants instruct people to secure their own oxygen masks before assisting others. If the daughter depletes her own savings to “help” her mother, they BOTH could financially drown. The daughter needs to have her own savings cushion. She can help per mother, but that doesn’t mean giving her a handout. I don’t think she’s in a position to do that with the small amount of savings she has. There are other ways to help. Other people have weighed in with excellent suggestions.
I don’t think ANYone has enough experience to tackle this. Things that might make the decision easier are if the Mom is irresponsible with money and could have been in a much better financial position if she’d made some obviously better choices. But if that’s not the case, and responsible people are struggling, it becomes a personal decision. I think Rachel would do well to decide, if she DOES feel the need to continue giving money to Mom, how much she can budget for that purpose, and limit it to that each month. (But don’t tell Mom you’re budgeting for it each month, or she may come to expect and rely on it, if she doesn’t already).
Side note about “loaning” to family: About 4 years ago, I inherited some money when a relative passed away. My dad later asked for a small loan, which I’m sure was very difficult for him to do. His wife spends a LOT and they were in a very precarious financial position, and I think it was out of desperation that he let me know their problem. Neither of us ever mentioned it again after I gave him the check (he never repaid it and I never asked for it because who wants to have to do that to family?). I finally let it go, and could consider it money I gave away and not feel resentful about it. (An ex of mine lived by the motto of not loaning something out that you couldn’t afford to never see again.)
So I don’t think Rachel will see that $2,000 again, and should probably consider it a gift to her mom. Which means she then needs to decide if she can afford to give any more.
I know some would disagree, but I think the best course for this young woman to have a heart to heart with her mom, but move and start her own life. I’m not saying cut them out of her life, she can help by listening and talking to her, educating her in PF, heck even have her call into Dave Ramsey! emotional support, even small amounts of money that the daughter won’t not miss, but no more.
It is not her Mom’s fault, but it sounds like her mom needs to readjust her expectations regarding financial support from her ex husband and her personal business, and figure out where to go from there. It may mean a regular job, downsizing their home, a number of things. I DON’T think it is a good idea for her mom to then think well my daughter can now be my financial life line and drag her down with her. I would hope that her mom raised her with the hope her child would become an independent adult and be able to pursue her own dreams and future. By leaning on her daughter at this critical time, she is undermining all she has worked for in that regard, will possibly create a dysfunctional family relationship, and is teaching her younger daughter very bad lessons.
I know. I was in a similar situation with my parents, in particular my mom when my parents when through a bad divorce. I moved away. My 3 other siblings continued to live nearby. I’m the only one of the kids who does not have a dysfunctional emotional/financial relationship with my parents. Now that I am more financially secure I do help out my mother when I can, but I will not sacrifice my or my own family’s emotional, financial security for my mother or siblings, and I would expect them to do the same. Tough love is still love, in fact it can be more real love because it is based on reality, not dreams and fantasy.
It’s a huge choice but it seems like there might be some sacrifices if you need to help out your mom. My family is important to me but so was paying off my student loan.
Personally, after graduating to help out my parents I had moved back home and paid them rent rather than pay another landlord. This help put in an extra cash in every month to them and help out around the house but I lost a lot of freedom. But I was still able to pay down my debts, save some cash, plus I saved a bit more since my mom could cook at home and I would barely eat out for dinner.
Right now, I’m married and moved out to a condo but we had budgeted $400 a month to give a portion to both our parents but we make sure to save what we need for our retirement and investments. Our emergency funds is a lot lower than what we would like but I’d feel a lot more stress if I knew my parents were having a hard time.
I hear people saying the sister should get a job. But unless she has transportation, this will be difficult. In addition, she is only fourteen, so she is not legally allowed to work in many states.
I think what you do clearly depends on the situation. If your family or family member has been responsible, but has hit a spot of bad luck that was beyond their control, then yes, family is family, and you should do what you can to help out. So long as they continue to help themselves as well. Even then, you need to look out for yourself, especially if you have a family of your own. Any responsible family member would understand and probably insist on this. On the otherhand, I see no need to feel obligated to help a parent or family member, whether it is monetary or otherwise, who has consistently proven to be irresponsible. Even if it means they end up on the street, and especially if you or others have reached out to help but now find yourself a veritable “ATM” machine. I have a parent who has been irresponsible of all their lives, has never taken the opportunity to improve themselves even when it is pretty much handed to them, and yet blames pretty much everyone else in the world for their lot in life.
@Carrie: Of course the daughter didn’t ask her mom to make sacrifices. That’s just what families do for each other. The mother shouldn’t have to ask, either.
I know I already contributed, but I had an additional thought that sort of piggy-backs on what Anne Keckler said:
While the mother should do her best to find a better paying job, I’m not sure about the wisdom of finding a second job. My kid hasn’t hit her teens yet, so I’m not speaking from personal experience, but from what I understand about the teen years, it is good for a parent to be there for the child. Two jobs for mom would mean that the sister would be virtually parenting herself (unless dad picks up the slack — and I wouldn’t count on that).
Anyone who wants to do anything in life, to become a person in their own right, must beigin by killing their parents (metaphorically!). When we kill our parents (metaphorically!), what we are really doing is sloughing off the imost layer of false context in which we are encased and by which we are defined.
I agree with other posters that helping the mother would not make Rachel an enabler. This makes it different than the tough love situations where denying help is the most loving course of action. So, assuming that Rachel is going to help, the question becomes what is the healthiest way to do so. I would suggest that she figure out a definate amount that she is able to contribute and send this much regardless of the specific situation for her mother that month. From a relationship perspective, this is the clearest way to set boundries and define responsibility. Otherwise, each help request has to go through the emotionaly exhausting compromise where mother and daughter are wondering how much is needed and how much can be given. From a financial perspective, this allows both mother and daughter to have the awareness of money coming in and money coming out. This awareness is a crucial step in being financialy successful. Once the mother knows how much is coming from the daughter, she can make the changes in living expenses that take into account the reality of her income. From Rachel’s post, she seems like a planner, and psychologicaly she will feel much more in control of moving toward her goal if she knows how much money is going to what (including the check she sends home). She will be more able to “give every dollar a job to do”. Once this financial support is set on autopilot, mother and daughter will be better able to move beyond the financial relationship and care for each other as loving family members. Overall, I hope Rachel feels that the GRS community feels for her as she undergoes this messy curveball life has thrown her.
@Carrie – We aren’t talking about oxygen. We’re talking about basic necessities vs. a retirement account. There is clearly a difference in priority between the two.
I am currently reading “Why We Want You To Be Rich” by Robert Kiyosaki and Donald Trump, in this book Robert, most of all, discusses about how we in America always solved our financial problems temporarily and how we us a country just keep making things worse. Robert believes we should solve the problem by teaching people about how to be financially intelligent.
I think sitting down with your mother and father to discuss their financial situation and how it’s affecting you would be a good start. Dave Ramsey says “Most parents do not want their children’s advice”. If your parents don’t try changing their ways after your attempts to get them to do so. There is nothing you can do and unfortunately, those are people who don’t want to help themselves.
I can really sympathize with this woman, because I have faced a very similar situation with my family over the past 7 years or so.
I want to start by explaining the difference between helping and being codependent.
Both my parents have had financial problems in the past, and I have chosen to help my mother as much as I can and not to help my father in anyway. My father had financial problems because he was irresponsible with his money (he was a drug and alcohol addict). My mother had financial problems because she got laid off a few months before 9-11 when the electronics industry plunged and was un able to find work at anywhere near the same pay she was making at Arrow Electronics for several years. I think it is awful for people to assume she wasn’t trying, and that she wasn’t accepting any work she could get. Most companies won’t hire someone with 25 years experience in their field into an entry level position because they know she’ll quit the minute something better comes along. My mom eventually took a job at a fast food restaraunt, but she still had bills that reflected her previous 60k salary. She tried selling her house, her car, everything, but she was upside down on all of it and no one would buy. She ended up filing for bankruptcy and losing everything, forced to move in with her mother. She then had trouble looking for a job that pays a livable wage because most companies won’t hire you if you don’t have a reliable source of transportation to work (and around here, public transportation is not considered reliable). She was un able to buy a car, even a beater, because she didn’t have a pay check.
I came back from my deployment around that time and bought a car, which I let her borrow to look for work. She eventually found a good job, and we carpooled for a few more months until she could afford to buy a car. She was working on getting some of her debt paid off, and I was working on going to school, so we decided to rent a place together to keep costs down for both of us. Although she’s been laid off a couple more times since then, most recently when the mortgage lender she was working for tanked (because the economy is so great right now), my mom has always been able to get back on her feet pretty quickly when she’s been able to get a little support. Things are really looking up for us now. Her credit is on the mend despite her bankruptcy (she’s in the high 600s), shes restarted her retirement savings (she had to use all of her previous savings in the time before her bankruptcy to try to keep her head afloat), and she and I are getting ready to buy a house together, which I think will be a great investment.
My mom thrived with my help.
My dad is living in a hotel, last I spoke with him, but he’s at least gotten help for his addiction problems. Had I helped him financially, it would have just enabled his problem, he needed to hit rock bottom. My mom was working very hard but was a victim of the terrible economy. I think her survivor story is one to be congratulated.
My suggestion to the reader is to help her mother and sister as much as you feel you safely can, even if its only giving her 20 dollars a week. Or find non monetary ways to help your mother. Carpooling was probably the biggest thing I did to help my mom find a good job. Think about what else you can do.
Good luck.
Man, my entire family history is peppered with financial difficulties. I’m very, very shocked that I managed to be fairly financially stable, even though I was not making enough to make ends meet until recently. The gist of it is that my parents make enough to support themselves nicely, but my older sister mooches off them as much as she can, and never has supported herself at the age of 35. This caused them to lose their home, and is constantly putting them in jeopardy of not being able to pay the bills each month.
Suffice it to say, there are things I do to try to help out a bit. When I visit, I take them out to dinner (I’m 1200 miles away, so it’s not like an every weekend sort of thing now). I buy groceries for ME to eat, and happen to spend more than what I need and I can leave it when I’m gone.
I give them useful gifts for Christmas and birthdays, like new clothes for work and such, so they don’t have to spend money on that. They know I’d rather they had a roof over their heads than a gift card, so I’ve told them not to get me gifts anymore.
Since I lived at home for about a year and a half before I moved out of state, I “pay rent”. I couldn’t while I lived there because I was underemployed (although I’d do other things like cook dinner, clean a bit, and babysit the nephew), but now that I can afford it, I’ve set up an Ing account with my Dad’s info, in his name, but he doesn’t have access to it. It’s attached to my checking account, and I deposit small random amounts in there with every paycheck. It’s not much, but it does add up. I cleared it out 2 years ago when there was a plumbing problem, to help them pay for it, and it’s back up to $200 now, so it’s kind of like a secondary emergency fund for them, and my little sister knows to get a hold of me when they need it.
I won’t do anything more than that since my older sister is still mooching. Their problems all result from her, and even though they sort of recognize it, they feel helpless to change it. They told me that when I went to college I had to support myself, they told my younger sister the same, but when it came to my older sister, they just can’t do it. Excuse after excuse works for her, but it’s what’s holding them back from being able to do anything.
I’ve managed to pay off my credit cards and other debts within 2 years of getting a decent job (thank GOD), and the only thing I have left is my student loan debt. But, that’s $40,000, and I have no savings for a house. If I do more than what’s above, I won’t have a home for them to move into when they get old.
I agree with a lot of the previous posters:
— “Loan” to family = gift; if Mom pays you back, bonus. Otherwise, she’ll feel guilty, angry, and controlled, and you’ll feel angry, martyred, and used. It’s not good for the relationship to expect repayment.
— Is Mom doing anything to reduce expenses or get more income? If her business isn’t covering her expenses, is she taking measures to fix that? Can she rent a cheaper place, economize on clothes, etc., or is she maintaining a lifestyle? Throwing good money after bad won’t help her in the long run. You can’t tell her anything, but if she’s paying for expensive entertainment and telecom but not covering the rent, you can explain that you aren’t willing to pay her cable or cell phone bills.
— Are you paying rent, utilities, food while you live with her? You probably should. It sounds kind of awkward to be saving all your money for yourself instead of covering some of the household expenses in this situation.
— Once you get out on your own, make sure you’re financially secure before you “loan” her any more money. (Insert the standard airplane “put on your own oxygen mask before assisting the other passengers” analogy here.)
I completely understand what Rachel must be going through both financially and emotionally. I am in a similar situation in which I kept bailing my mother out from her own bad financial decisions as well as a streak of bad luck. While in college this left me with a credit card bill of $8000 and a total debt of $50,000 before I even graduated from college back in Aug 2007. Now almost a year later I work a full-time and part-time job to make ends meet and rarely spend on “luxuries” like eating out but at the same time I’ve dropped my killer credit cards to less than $4000 and saved 1/3 of what I need for a 3 month emergency fund. The rest I hope to pay off in the next 2 yrs.
Rachel, the best advice I can give you is to remove yourself emotionally from the situation. This will save you from a lot of anxiety and trouble and will also help you take more control of the situation. All the frustration with my moms decisions almost broke our relationship. If you really want to help I think the best way would be as any financial sound person would tell you is to create a budget plan with your mom. See where she can cut down or can work with existing creditors. Currently, I’ve taken over my moms finances and give her a weekly allowance so she never misses a payment and she can never go over budget. Also, I’ve secretly been saving money from her paychecks for an emergency fund. I don’t tell her about it so she doesn’t take for granted the allowance she gets thinking she can fall back on that emergency fund. Remember, you cant always bail your mother out if its her mistakes bringing her down. The only thing you can do is guide her towards better options. I was 20 when this happened like you and now I’m 24 only a few years later things are already looking up 🙂
I’ve been in a similar situation, right down to a father with a gambling problem. I understand your dilemma on both sides of the coin. I think it’s really up to you and the unique situation your in to find the balance. Have you tried explaining your point of view to your parents? Let them know you want to help but don’t want to drown in debt as a result? It might help.
If I were the poster, I would concentrate my efforts on helping mom become stable – either by helping her find more sources of income, or helping her cut expenses, or both. Just giving money is a band-aid that doesn’t fix the problem.
I’m sure your mom is responsible, but it sounds to me like she’s not used to living on this sporadic income (not that I blame her – my mom went through some of the same problems when my parents divorced). But if she ends up depending on you rather than consistently living within her means, it doesn’t help her, and it certainly doesn’t help you!
As a follow up to me earlier post (back at #18) I forgot to mention that my mom, like the OP’s mom, was running her own biz that was not making any real money. She did eventually get a money making job but it was hard for her to give up on her biz dreams.
To me there are two kinds of loans: the kinds that are for a one-time emergency and the kinds that are for a recurring emergency. I sometimes loan or give money for the former, but I’ve found it’s a big mistake to do so for the latter. It helps for one month, but then the next month, they’re back in the same position, as if you’ve done nothing at all. It’s depressing.
Rent is a recurring emergency. Mom needs to find a way to reduce her rent or other recurring expenses or to increase her income or both until she can live within her means. That is the only way to keep her from having emergencies every month.
I haven’t read the other comments, but I expect they, and other sources, include many good ideas she can try such as moving to a trailer, getting a roommate, getting a second or third job, or living without a car. Anything that will work may sound drastic, but it doesn’t have to be permanent. (Note: bankruptcy is drastic, too, and she may still have trouble making ends meet afterwards.) As the debts are paid off, her interest expense will decline. Child support has nowhere to go but up. Her business may grow. And some changes may turn out to be less drastic than they at first appear (some weirdo frugality things turn out to be fun!).
I’m sure this is very stressful for Mom, having doom impending every month and having to beg for money. So she may be willing to evaluate her spending and try scary-sounding changes so she can take back control of her life.
Best of luck.
A similar situation was happening in my family. The total income was not so much a problem as the spending decisions. People CAN live on very little, but they often don’t (you cite your father’s gambling).
When family members got sick of supporting one particular group of relatives, that group was forced/coerced into getting a financial manager. They are SO MUCH BETTER OFF with no change in income. The financial manager gets their paychecks, sets the budget and doles out the money, pays the bills. Everyone feels better. The former borrowers feel freed from the emotional load of owing money to family. The lenders are no longer awash in guilt and stress over this part of the family.
If you MUST give support, make sure it is a set amount and a set time limit. This will be painful, but an alternative is ending up supporting your mother for the rest of your life as she will have no motivation to learn to live within her means and/or improve her means.
I’m a single woman and live well within my means and for many years friends and family assumed that meant I had money to lend/give to them. Most are now disabused of that notion.
She needs to go ahead with her plan to move out and to pursue her financial goals, but at the same time she’s still young enough that she can be a little flexible with how much she saves for retirement.
Since the mom has asked and continues to ask for money, the daughter has every right to give financial advice. The mom may not like it, but if she’s asking for help, then it’s better to help in every way she can, not just financially. In fact, the best thing she could do is help her mom find a way to get a new revenue stream, help rework her budget and do what she can to make her dad stop gambling.
Also, if her mom is in as dire straits as it seems, now is the time to do drastic reworking of the mom’s budget. As in cut out everything that’s not an absolute necessity. That means everything but food, shelter, water, electricity/heat and transportation is out. Buy clothing only to replace something that can’t be used anymore. No gourmet or take out foods. If she can get a cheaper house or use alternative transportation, do it. And etc. I’ve lived off of $40 per week at one time (which basically paid for food and gas) while in between jobs. It can be done.
The goal is to be able to help mom get out of her fix while still being able to put away for herself. And to do it as quickly as possible. If drastic action isn’t taken to pair down her mom’s costs and boost income, the daughter is going to be supporting her mom a lot longer than she’d like to and runs the risk of not only her mom sinking into a deeper pit, but of getting dragged down with her.
Family comes first no matter what for me!!!
I did face a similar situation but honestly it was not that bad. This is what I did, hope you can also follow similar footsteps:
1. It was very difficult for me to convince my parents to make them think that I was telling them the right thing, they always felt a kid is advising us (How can he do that). I proved to them that to understand things, age is no barrier. I won their confidence. (You need to win their confidence, else it is very difficult to move ahead)
2. I started with budgeting, I asked them to make sure that every penny is accounted. We got to know how the money comes and money goes.
3. I asked them to stop spending on certain things that I felt it was not necessary and they did agree to that and slowly it was removed. It was a gradual one and not a abrupt one.
4. I started helping them to save up money and invest. My parents were very afraid to invest and I had a real tough time to convince them about investments.
The most important steps are 2 and 3.
In India, we follow a culture that bounds the parents and children together. We all stay together and enjoy life!!! In most of the houses parents don’t listen to their own children in any matter. It may be a shock to you, but the truth is that we still believe in arrange marriages, i.e. the parents select the partner for the kids. In such a environment my parents do listen to me…
All the best, Rachel!! Keep gathering knowledge about personal finance and impart the same to the others around you..
“I don’t know how to keep myself from giving in to her need to borrow money – or should I? Which is more important, making sure my family has a home now or looking out for my retirement in 50 years?”
What do you want to do? Do you *want* to give her the money, but are afraid you’ll hurt yourself?
That is what it sounds like. A few posters have said “set aside an amount and don’t do any more than that”. This is a great idea. Then it is just another line-item on the budget.
But never, ever, let anyone who might receive that money know you’re doing it. Even if your mom is just going through a tough time now, it is hard to work yourself out of a hole with motivation if you know someone else is going to keep throwing dirt in to help you out. You don’t want her to depend on you at this time in her life!
And if your mom is being weasel-y, you don’t want that either 🙂
Although it sounds like one party is more responsible than the other, there are many considerations. Divorce is never just one party’s fault. There are always ways that both parties let things slide, failed to express love or exercise moderation, failed to think of the other’s needs first or provide extra attention during a period of temptation, etc etc.
Considering that divorces are sometimes inevitable, it is also necessary to look at what a person’s prior preparation has been. Did they receive a college education so that they good obtain gainful employment should it become necessary or did they just assume that they would be married all of their life?
Did they take care of themselves and really improve themselves constantly so that they remain attractive to an eligible future marriage partner even after decades of marriage?
Even if these things were overlooked and the divorce caught her largely unprepared, what is your mom doing now to get out of her quandary? If she is not able to include in her plans some kind of education right now that would allow her to get a better job in the future, then it is not a sustainable plan. I would not lend money on a consistent basis unless I knew that these kinds of sustainable plans were in place.
Divorce has a tendency destroy both parties financially. At least now the mom is not responsible for the dad’s IRS obligations. As for child support. The mother can contact her local Child Support Services department and have it documented thru the State or City what the child support payment needs to be. This will at least alleviate some of the IRS garnishing in the future.
As for contributions she can provide a grocery store gift card to her mother, helping with groceries versus cash. Another possibility is to help the mom advocate for herself with the Landlord to establish a payment plan for the back rent. The goal would be to empower the mother to set up a plan to work her way out of debt, through counseling or researching resources. If the mother is asking only for money and does not welcome other type of help, then bankruptcy maybe the only solution for a fresh start.
Rather than offer advice, I’ll share my experiences.
Back when I was about 20, I was a full time student living at home with my mother and my four year old nephew (my eldest brother’s son, whom he couldn’t care for.) I was working part-time to offset my college expenses and to contribute to the household. My family was relatively poor, but not poor enough to get much in financial aid. (We were poor enough until Reagan came along and slashed financial aid funding, but that’s a different story.)
Things were stable enough until my mother began to have health problems that were serious enough to cause her to go out on long-term disability. Unfortunately, it took over a year for her benefits to begin, so during this period, I had to quit school and work full-time to keep the lights on at home.
My income kept the household together until a lump-sum check for 15 months of benefits showed up. If I wasn’t there to do that, I’m not sure what would have happened, and I don’t regret my decision. (I do resent that the additonal income destroyed my ability to get any financial aid at all, which seriously delayed completing by BA.)
Also, for about six years, I sent my grandmother about $400 a month to pay for her prescription medications. Again, no regrets even though I had almost no income for four of those years while I was in graduate school and while trying to start a business.
By contrast, my eldest sister (16 years my senior) borrowed money from me to help pay for some professional training she was getting through a local college. It seemed like a reasonable request, and she insisted it was a loan. Of course, I never saw the money back, and she asked me for more money several times after that. The whole situation damaged our relationship very badly.
The only bit of advice I’d give that if you do choose to give your mother financial help, you should be very clear about whether it’s a gift or a loan, and what any repayment expectations are. If you do choose to make it a gift, also be sure to clarify if it’s one-time or something you can do on a regular basis. This clarity is the key to keeping your relationship with your mom healthy.
My advice would be this, if you choose to help your mom out, (and it IS a choice, not an obligation, and totally up to YOU as a member of the family contributing what YOU have worked very hard to earn) take a look at your goals and current budget. If you want to help, make that help a budget category and sock away $10, $25, $50 per month, whatever you can afford to contribute. I wouldn’t offer a lump sum out of your savings, but rather, would budget for what will essentially become a known expense. If it looks like your mom and sister are hitting dire straights you can decide whether or not to save up a sum of “bail out of trouble” money, or if they would be helped more by a monthly contribution to their budget.
I recently discussed this issue on my blog at: http://tawodi.org/2008/04/22/would-you-support-someone-who-wont-support-themselves/
I think it really depends on the situation. If the person is not doing anything to help their financial downfall, then I do not think it is the reader’s responsibility to help. They have to want to help themselves first.
However if the person is just having a run of bad luck, but still trying really hard to make ends meet, then I see that as an exception.
I support my father who is on disability, but he is your typical blue-collared American farmer who worked hard all his life only to end up with nothing. So of course I will support him. But any other family member who just wasn’t intelligent with their money and continually ended up with problems, I wouldn’t gift them any money.
On the same note I think it’s important to stress that when helping out friends and family it is better to call them gifts instead of loans. When you loan money to people and expect to get it back, you open yourself up to a lot of heartache and stress if they can’t pay. It could be a strain on the relationship.
If they decide to pay you back, then that is a good thing, but there’s no need to place stress on them and yourself by requiring it to be a loan.
Your Parents seperation seemed to start the negative cash flow & that is something you are not responsible for. They could be in a non positive position for a decade or beyond. With a younger sister at home, a sitpend to be sure she’s eating & healthy makes sense. People can and do eat on a dollar a day, therefore a monthly amount sent at the same time every month (auto payment perhaps) would be the only regular check sent their direction from your description. You may want to mark it for support for little sis still at home & once she’s out, stop. You are VERY Fortunate to be in the position to make the move. Go gal, Go & retain the happy times & don’t let the others pull you down. Take Care!!
Your best bet is sitting down and talking through it with your Mom. If she expect or needs money from you to make ends meet then you should participate in the financial decisions. Sit down and make a plan you can both agree on. Just remember to be sensitive to your Mom and realize there is a lot of concerns that probably play into the problem that you don’t realize.
To those who say, “This is between Mom and Dad.” It’s clear you’ve never been the child of parents in a nasty divorce. It SHOULD be between Mom and Dad to figure this out, but in reality, Mom and Dad will find a way to drag the kids into it. Heck, my parents have been divorced for 10 years and they STILL bring us kids into things like this. Just because you have kids, doesn’t mean you’re a grown-up.
I say family comes first. Especially since, from what I can gather, most of this is not her fault, and she seems to be trying the best she can. Does Mom’s debt come from poor choices or just doing whatever she can to get by.
Don’t just give her money, help her dig out. It will help everyone involved. Save enough money so you don’t end up in her position, but especially with a child at home, I think they come before a Roth IRA.
My wife and I went through something like this when we were dating. Her parents went through a protracted on and off separation for a few years and finally divorced. The mother started depending on my wife (who had an apartment a few miles away) for much of the “secondary” parent role since she had the other kids all the time. Every night (no exaggeration since to prove the point to my wife I kept track for a month one time) her mother would call her and ask for something. A trip to the store for groceries, dropping a younger brother off at work, come over and help fix something, etc..
The mother also struggled finacially through all of this, occasionally needing some help, which my wife provided as she could.
I told my wife that she needed to start backing off on the amount of help, because once we were married, jobs were scarce and we’d likely end up out of state. She didn’t do much, the ties were too tight and she couldn’t say no and her mother couldn’t stop asking.
To make a long story short, we moved a couple of states away the day after the wedding (I’d already gotten a job and had an apartment there).
Her mother survived. Her siblings survived. It wasn’t easy. Lots of calls and lots of tears and lots of “I know we needed to leave but I wish we never had” kind of discussions.
Do what you can, but don’t stop yourself from moving forward either. I can’t speak for others, but in our case I feel it was the best thing we could have done for both my wife and my mother-in-law.
Best of luck.
My initial reaction would be stop lending money to family members. If you want to help – give the money away, but do not expect anything in return. Owing money to relatives changes relationships and is not particularly healthy.
Having said that, I have faced a situation similar to Rachel’s. It is a tough spot to be in, especially at a young age. Normally, I would vote for tough love and cut off the parents from additional financial support, but since Rachel’s sister still is dependent on her parents for basic necessities, and her mother has seemingly inherited a bad situation from divorce, it seems a little heartless to let them get kicked out of house and home.
If I were in Rachel’s shoes I would try to gently introduce books such as The Total Money Makeover into both her parent’s lives so they can beging to get a better understanding of handling finances from a source other than one of their children (Dave Ramsey is right – parents don’t want advice from their kids!). The father should really seek 12-step help for his addiction because he is effectively gambling with his daughter’s child support money. I would offer to provide food, pay utilities, etc. and help the mother and younger sister with expenses associated with school, clothes, etc, but I would not continue to blindly give money as long as her father is frittering their support money away on gambling.
Mom needs a plan. Through no fault of her own, she is a painful situation and you can help more by assisting her to find the right help in making new arrangements than by what can only be very stop-gap financial aid.
Mom needs to file for bankruptcy immediately. This will erase most debt.
She needs to apply for food stamps and Medicare for insurance if she and her daughter have none. ASAP
She needs to get back with a lawyer and have Dad’s income or a percentage of it paid directly to her if she can.
She also needs investigate filing an appeal with the IRS…attachment of money was never intended to starve minor children…I think she can win this.
Family does come first but you don’t make enough to support two additional people. You should sit down with Mom with a debt counselor (there are many free services) to help her focus on the steps she needs to get back on track.
After this, the small amounts you can send them will be more effective than just throwing all your money down a rabbit hole. e.g a few dollars here and there to supply your sister with a needed item…calculator, school supplies..winter coat.
At 20 I commend you for your work ethic and savings but think you’re a bit too young and new to ‘financial independance’ to cast off your mother who took care of you all this time.
Give what you can while you can to help out. You have plenty of time to save. Starting at 23 would put you WELL ahead of the curve.
I say move and don’t send money. Instead, if possible, maybe send gift cards to grocery stores in their area – that way you know the money is not being spent on things they don’t need (because you always need to eat).
I also think it would be okay to set up a savings account that you put money in for your sister, that you can give to her at 18 or something – maybe she decides to go to college, maybe she needs to move out of your mom’s house as well, etc. Only do something like that after you’ve gotten yourself settled though.
The more money you give to your parents, the more debt you will be in yourself. I’ve seen it happen to someone close to me. Thankfully, my parents haven’t had to ask me for money. (They know I don’t have any anyways!)
I agree with Seth. Are we really so ungrateful to our parents? She’s not giving money to the father, who has an addiction problem, she’s giving money to her mother who is struggling to care for a little girl who has no means of supporting herself.
Why don’t we all just insist the 14 year old drop out of school and get a full time job so that she can support herself and let the mom rot in hell for all we care?
You people must have had awful mothers. I don’t know how anyone who had a good mother can say some of these things.
As Ramsey would likely advise, set a budget for the help you CAN offer. And a reasonable time limit.
While you are living with your Mom you should have been shouldering some of the expense under the heading of ‘room & board’. I know that ‘should’ can be a dirty word. But, write off the ‘loan’ to Mom and let her know that you’ve done so. Set up a checking account that she can draw on and make regular deposits to it so she doesn’t have to beg you for assistance.
Your plans are important. So were hers. Let her know that she didn’t give up a career as a musician / dancer / architect / whatever in order to have kids in vain. Also let her know that she didn’t raise an idiot about money.
This is a tough one but I think I have to agree with Mr. Ramsey. Your mom is in trouble, and she’s going to keep being in trouble until she changes the habits that got her in this hole. You might be able to help her temporarily by lending her some cash, but I think you could help her more by sitting her down, letting her know that you love her and see that she’s in trouble, and doing your best to tell her how she can change. What an odd thing to have to do with your own mom!
Well, I’m familiar with this kind of situation. My mom refuses to work, my dad has had a history of mental disability, my step dad would rather hang with his friends then work. Not a thought given to what’s next.
Basically, the roles are reversed. You are the adult, your parents are the children. Since this is the roles they chose, they should be treated as such.
Your mom chooses to have an unlucrative unsuccessful business, instead of a steady job. That’s her choise. She can get another job or a second job. If your mom cannot afford the rent for her current place she should move to somewhere smaller, sounds like one bedroom has been freed up.
Your dad chooses to work irregular contract work. He could work a regular salary or a second job, but he doesn’t. Your dad chooses to gamble away his savings instead of investing it.
You choose to work three jobs. Are your parents showing the same effort? If the situation is anything like mine, the answer is a very loud NO!
Responsible parents do not reward irresponsible children. You shouldn’t reward your two children.
I understand this is hard, but this is a lesson they must learn. What will happen if you keep bailing them out when they choose the easy path? Are their retirement plans to continue to mooch off of you, derailing yours?
I am in the middle of a very similar situation myself. My mom is over 60, single and works in a physically demanding job that is endangered by her not-so-great health. She has no savings, no retirement plan, no insurance of her own. I have been lending her money over the last five years for various reasons and in various amounts. I am an only child, as is she. We’re all we’ve got. She hates asking for help, and while I don’t like giving money away, I don’t want to see her on the street either.
I’ve set aside a certain amount each month that I can afford to give her, money I don’t expect to get back, and I don’t advertise the dollar amount. I don’t give it automatically, she has to call and ask for it. I have frank conversations with her about her plans, and I provide information to community programs she can access herself.
So far so good… the only thing I worry about is getting snide remarks if I buy a piece of furniture, or take a trip somewhere. The tradition of the guilt trip runs deep in our family, and I am working hard to buck that trend.
while we’re not doing “well” financially at this very second, we would be a whole lot worse off if we weren’t pretty picky about where our money goes. meanwhile, my sister and her family struggle to make ends meet for the new cars and new house and new everything. my mother needs some serious sense talked into her because “manicures ARE a necessity!” though she struggles to pay for things that she really does need.
what i’m seeing are stupid choices made by family members. i don’t want my niece out on the street with my sis and BIL, but i’m not about to put myself out of a meal two nights a week to support their stupid financial decisions. same with my mother. i do tell them how i make ends meet on such a low salary, hoping that some ideas get across to them. that’s all i can do.
From where I came from, retirement is unheard of as people do not have enough to get by day-to-day much more to worry about retirement. Taking care of parents financially is a duty and moral responsibility.
First off, people, she doesn’t mention anything about giving money to her dad, so we can only assume she is not giving money to her dad.
Second, no where does she say her mother rents. What if her mother owns a home? In the current market it could be pretty hard for her to sell. Its a bad idea for her to move into another home if she still has to make a mortgage payment.
Now I agree that she needs to get a job besides her business if her business is not generating income, and I’m sure she’s working on it, but the job market isn’t exactly great right now, if no one has noticed. And if she’s been basically a stay at home mom for the last 20 years, theres not exactly a big rush to hire her. People who haven’t worked for 20 years tend to be viewed as unskilled and behind the times. And last I checked, a job at McDonalds usually doesn’t cut it for a mortgage payment.
Does anyone stop to think of these things or are we just a culture of cutting weight before we even figure out if its dead or not? By the reasoning of some of the people who have responded here, I should stop providing for my six month old son, and if he starves to death on the street its his own fault for not getting a job that pays a liveable wage. Come on.
@Jessica – She did say that her mother rents.
“She already owes me about $2000 from the past year or so, and every month she asks me to borrow some money for rent, but usually she gets a check from my dad right in the nick of time.”
If you are out of school and living at home, you should contribute in some way. Paying some bills, buying groceries, toiletries, helping with the rent, etc. But Mom also needs to find other income or ways to lower expenses and cost of living. Having to borrow month to month to make ends meet should be a very big sign that something needs to change.
Dad can’t be counted on, obviously (even if he does come through at the last minute), so it will be up to Mom to be able to support herself and her other daughter. No, it’s not fair, but it’s necessary.
Why do you own 141 books? For someone who scrimps on laundry detergent and cable, it seems insanse to have purcahsed that many PF books. Most of the information is the EXACT same! I follow four PF blogs pretty consistently and most of their advice is along the same lines of yours. Now imagine following 141 blogs, but spending $9-$10 every time. Seems like 1500 dollars could be better spent….
Chris wrote: Why do you own 141 books? For someone who scrimps on laundry detergent and cable, it seems insane to have purchased that many PF books!
Ah, careful there. I don’t scrimp on laundry detergent. 🙂
Actually, I’ve writte before about how to build a cheap personal finance library. Many of my books were purchased at used book stores, garage sales, or thrift stores.
Many other books have been sent to me free from authors and publishers because they’d like for me to write about them.
All the same, I have spent money on new books. Fortunately, Get Rich Slowly is a business, and there’s no question that these books are a business expense. That means that thery’re not quite as expensive as they’d be otherwise. (I can write them off on taxes.)
Am I rationalizing? Perhaps. But I feel not a whit of guilt for owning 141 personal finance books. In fact, I’m glad I have them, and intend to acquire more in the future.
(Now the rest of my books? Those are a problem. But I’ve been purging them over the past two years, and my book spending has plummeted.)
(Side note to chris above… I’d guess he doesn’t buy all his books new full price and sometimes he gets them as gifts. He just never throws any away either. I have bought numerous books used online at Amazon for 0.01¢ plus shipping and also bought books for a 0.25¢ at library sales.)
But I really came here to tell Rachel to go ahead and move out on her own. Your mom will be just fine. As long as someone is bailing her out she will not need to step up to the responsibility herself. Some distance between you and the situation with help you see better how to help. After you find out your costs for staying afloat then figure out if you want to send something every month and how much that will be. You might be underestimating how much you’ll need to live in a more expensive part of the country. Loving your family does not mean you have to give them your hard earned money for them to handle unwisely.
>looking into declaring bankruptcy because
> her business is not generating enough
> income
There’s plenty blame to go around but if she is pouring money into a badly run business there is no reason for you to get caught in that trap as well.
Handle *your* business and be a good example to your sister.
I can certainly see where Rachel is coming from. I have sort of the same situation. My mom is struggling financially and has no savings. She is barely making ends meet. I’ve tried to help her budget and manage her money but she always goes back to her old ways. The only good thing I can say is that she does not like to borrow money from me. She still borrows but she is pretty good about paying it back.
it’s mention that the child-support comes before she has to lend the money to her mother. Rachel should take this money and start a second fund for “family”. with a small amount each check going into this fund, she will find the when it is needed after little use, the expence will not affect her own nestegg. after a few years she can use this money to pay for other “family” items as well, i.e. gift, trips, airfare(she is moving across country), and family dinners.
I have a similar situation, except that my mom put herself in that spot, rather than something unfortunate happening to her as in Rachel’s case. I just got out of college last year, and at my first real career job, I make about 10k more than my mom (single), and she totally resents me for it. She always comments to me how it’s not fair (she does not have a college degree, though), and then she expects that I’ll split my “extra” money with her, just because I make more. Also I live with my boyfriend, so we split the living expenses, vs my mom who lives alone and also thinks this is unfair (and somehow my fault). It’s a very difficult situation – why should I give her money just because I make more than her? I wouldn’t expect her to do that for me if the situation were reversed. She has put herself in a tough spot over the years – she spends far too much (she has told me that she ends up with about a $500 deficit every month – how can you come out of that without tightening the belt), and isn’t able (or willing, maybe) to curb her spending habit. She also takes out ridiculous loans (one of them she took out for $5k @ 99% APR, 10 yr loan – yes you read that right) over and over again. I realize this situation is very different from Rachel’s. I don’t feel like I should pay for my mom’s overspending (the only reason I have a surplus instead of a deficit is because I stick to a budget – regardless of what I earn) or past (and current) financial mistakes. I feel that if I give her the money to pay her loan payment this month, she’ll just start relying on me to cover that monthly deficit. I have told her about my budget several times and she seems very interested. She always wants to get a hold of her finances – but not enough to actually do something about it.
For Rachel’s situation, it is hard to say. Her mom is still providing for a child. But I also feel that her mom could take more steps, like Rachel has by taking 3 jobs. Something that I have taken up to supplement my income in just a few hours a week is mystery shopping. I net about $200/mo this way, and for almost no effort, so that could be something her mom could try if she is strapped for time. As long as Rachel’s mom does not come to view her as a financial crutch, I think it would be fine for Rachel to help her out a little bit financially (but still put away some of her own savings).
@ Jessica You’re funny. You’re more than willing to chuck the father under a bus because he’s got a gambling problem, but automatically assume the mother is just peachy and only needs to have money thrown her way to get over this bump in the road without considering she’s got a serious money problem.
Let’s review:
Mother has already borrowed about $2000 from the daughter over the last year
Mother has exhausted every available resource she could possibly borrow money from (other relations are done enabling?)
Mother is looking into declaring bankruptcy Mother’s business is not generating enough income to support them
This implies that the Mother has a real problem with her ability to make and handle money well beyond the scope of this young woman. Further, it’s unlikely the woman would have sent the message unless she felt this is a problem that isn’t short term.
Sadly there are just too many unknowns to provide solid advice. The mother may be working a full time job *and* the business is on the side, the daughter may or may not be paying rent, etc. Hell look at your last post, it is nothing but a fantasy about the Mother’s finacial life and what might be. Hence the advice is all over the place, but frankly, the bulk of it is really good regardless of what her actual situation really is.
From the vast bulk of the comments, everyone agrees this young woman needs to help her mother, the problem is how. It is important to help family, and as often as not that doesn’t mean with money.
My parents made a poor business decision that got worse after September 11th. They had always been there for me financially prior to this…lending me money for collections and what not and bought me my first car. They never paid a bill late so it was extremely painful when the business failed.
I lent them money and financed a motorhome for them. The only thing I would not do is take out a loan using my car. I told them they would have to sell something for the downpayment on the motorhome…I would not put my transportation on the line. I might add I was also supporting my EX-fiance.
I love my parents and I know they learned a lot from this experience. It was not always easy and we did have arguements particularly when they tried to tell my brother and I that they were alright financially and we KNEW they were not. However I WOULD help them out all over again if I had to and the feeling is mutual. I was very grateful I was not in debt at the time either!!!
I am SO glad that this issue was posted. I am dealing with a very similar situation with my in-laws right now. They are finalizing their divorce right now and my mother in law has NO budgeting skills. Her power was actually turned off. And all we hear are excuses & excuses. She just won’t change her ways. I agree on the tough-love advice, but I can’t see any way of doing it without ruining the family relationship.
The saddest part is that I can envision her in the same financial position in 5 years. I don’t want us to have to support her forever.
I wish I could give you some good advice, but unfortunately I’m in the same situation and still trying to figure things out myself.
I’m 24 and I’ve been on my own in another state from my family for six years. My family is perpetually broke while I’m responsibly paying down my debt and saving vigorously. I try to give them advice I got from this website and from personal finance books I’ve read, but it goes in one ear and out the other. Frankly, I’m getting tired of trying. I’m starting to think that I’ll be supporting them somehow in the next decade or so.
I’ll help them out in extreme cases, but I get sick of hearing people complain about problems they have the power to fix. The way I see it, if they were really sick of being broke, they’d be doing what I’m doing: educating themselves as much as possible about money and working a second job (if necessary). Your situation seems a little more dire than mine, so good luck with whatever you end up doing.
“Let’s review:
Mother has already borrowed about $2000 from the daughter over the last year”
“, and every month she asks me to borrow some money for rent,”
@getagrip: Don’t you think $2000 is less than the amount of money Rachel should’ve paid her mother for room/board for the past 2 years? As some posters mentioned – nobody in Rachel’s letter does she say anything about her already contributing her fair share. Nor does she say anything about buying food.
Rachel lives there. Oh, she is so responsible she saved some money. It’s really easy to save if you have no living expenses; you just take everything to the bank.
Maybe asking to borrow money for rent was Rachel’s mother’s way of asking Rachel to pay for her fair share of room/board/gas/electricity? Sometimes parents are reluctant to ask their adult kids to contribute, they feel they should provide for them. Who is cleaning the place? Who is preparing meals? Food is expensive now – who is buying the food for everyone? Does Rachel buy her own food or does she just eats there? If the mother is cleaning and cooking, surely mother’s effort worth something?
Sure, if Rachel is already paying for her fair share of room and board, helps around the house, it’s a different story. I would still say she should help her mother as much as she can and not treat it as a loan, but at least it’d be subject for discussion. But we don’t have enough information, and if Rachel indeed contributes, why doesn’t she mention it in her letter?
I am amazed that so few people mention that Rachel should have been paying room/board for the past 2 years (since she turned 18), and how many totally ignore the issue.
There are two sides to every story. Until we hear the mother’s side, we don’t really know the facts.
My parents are in similar financial straits, but many of the reasons they’re in debt is because of habits. They’ve had thousands of dollars go through their hands over the past three years, but their habits will continually make them poor.
Trying to educate your parents on financial literacy is probably futile, but keep trying to give small hints of other possibilities. However, due to not become entangled in their financial woes to your detriment.
I’ve pretty much given up hope of my parents ever learning to be free of debt. After many years of going through the same motions, I think that their situation is eternal.
The only thing I feel that can be done for them, since their in the mid 50’s is to purchase a home with an attached mother-in-law’s quarters. This will more than likely be necessary as they get older and are no longer able to support themselves financially or physically.
Good luck, I realize that some times it may seem unbearable to have this responsibility at such a young age, but you have a unique opportunity to make sure that your future generations due not have to suffer due to mishandling money
The book “Richest Man in Babylon” deals with all of these problems and more. In fact, there are very detailed chapters on whether to give money to family or not, and how to get out of exactly the same situation her mother is right now.
I have paid for both a (reputable and certified) credit counselor and a job counselor for close friends in constant crisis. One was a turning point, and the other was not… but I think this had more to do with the parties involved than the fulcrum potential of either action.
My two cents— I can’t teach anyone to fish, but I can point ’em to a great fly tier!
In my opinion, there are two possible ways of looking at this scenario: 1) helping her mom is an investment in the future. Personal and family relationships are non-monetary investments: you get out what you put in. I’m assuming that since she’s worried about it, she loves her mother and wants to “do the right thing”, even if it’s painful (in this case, to the checkbook). A million bucks in an ING or Roth IRA account won’t ease the pain of knowing your parent lives in poverty. It could cause a significant rift in the relationship. She’s 20 now; she’ll be 40 someday. As a 37-year old who is more or less estranged from his parents (it’s a long story), I can attest to the pain of wanting to be close to an aging parent, and being unable to get past certain past hurts. It truly sucks. 2) helping her mom now could also be a monetary investment in the future. Although bankruptcy could be an option for wiping out debt, there’s the issue of credit repair, rebuilding finances, etc. Helping her mom now could prevent her having to help her mom in 20 years, when debt and overall lack of resources prevents an easy retirement. As a 37-year old whose mother-in-law has moved in with him permanently for very similar reasons, I feel justified in saying: “I know what I’m talking about here.” Don’t get me wrong, I love her (as Rachel obviously loves her mom), but it can be very stressful when you’re trying to take care of your own complicated finances and you’re put in a position of helping a parent with theirs because certain issues weren’t handled in decades past.
Best of luck, Rachel. Money is good, but love is better.
P.S. I didn’t read the 119 comments before me, apologies if this was originally posted more eloquently by others.
Some really good advice in Comments above! Another tack: R’s parents chose “off the grid” jobs (contractor, self-employed) which their skill-sets don’t support i.e., they’re not compensated with a profitable wage for their work. Hence, this is the wrong employment for them and their need to support their dependent children. While they’re known this fact for years, now they are making it R’s problem, just as she’s able to break free. -Coincidence?
R, do you want to be a 20-year old parent of a middle-aged couple and a 14-year old? Do not be an enabler! Get free, and get yourself in a position to help your sister.
Time for a reality check on the parent’s part. Dad’s abandonment of his dependent children is criminal and actionable. Mom’s single “hobby” job is putting a 14 year old child in jeopardy. How can the child study, have regular healthcare, develop normally and feel safe in a home with this much drama? Why isn’t Mom more concerned about that? Getting Mom into a 12-step meeting will give her tools for change that your forced handouts never will.
While there are all sorts of agencies for Mom to get food, legal aid and classes to retrain for a real job, there are also ones that will take the child and put her in foster care.
theres no right or wrong answer. you gotta sit down and evaluate your happiness both present and long term.
is the cost of giving up your goals worth helping your family. This depends on personality and many other factors as well. Overall which choice will make you happier in the long run.
You will always face unexpected events that force you to change your financial plan. You have to sit down and evaluate your happiness.
What if your sister was kidnapped and demanded ransom of all your money?
What would you do? are you going to try to balance?
I dont think so
Why is everyone assuming that Mom has a ‘hobby business’? We don’t know what her business is.
But I do know that small businesses everywhere are struggling to stay alive.
Small enterprises rarely make a lot of profit …. if they are profitable they often make little more than insurance,auto and travel money for the proprietor.
Frequently, they are meant to augment the family income, not be the family income.
And in this economic climate even successful businesses are off at least 20% and that is the gross (not net) profit for many small shops.
I have had a small business for 22 years and know whereof I speak.
Please readers, stop judging this woman since you neither know her circumstances or anything about the finances of small enterprises.
Sadly, this is not uncommon. Whenever I read articles about the baby boomers about to retire, I think about how many CAN’T.
And the winner is…. KITTY in post # 116!
That is exactly the first thing that came to my mind when reading this post: “Why isn’t she paying rent?”
I lived at my parents house until I was 21, and paid at least $100 a month in rent, did my own laundry, helped buy groceries, etc. I even helped my folks buy a new washer before moving out – they gave me the option of being able to come home weekly to do my laundry there, but I never did. And I never expected to be repaid.
My own adult son also paid rent when he turned 18. And I think it made him more responsible with his finances. He just bought a house at age 23. I could never have done that at age 23.
I also firmly believe that when a family member is in a crisis and we are able to help, that we should do so.
This mother is treading water after devastating life changes. Any help the writer is able to offer SHOULD be offered at this time to get her on her feet.
Also, remeber that sometimes people have to hit rock bottom before they change their financial way of thinking. This mother is at that point and struggling. It is not easy to learn new habits. Just be there for her.
I wouldn’t continually lend money to her if she can’t seem to get her finances in order. It doesn’t make sense to sink your ship along side hers.
It’s tough of course. Get her counseling, show her how to budget.
Reminds me of the story about either giving a man a fish, or teaching him how to on his own.
mom needs to get a J-O-B.
i was recently divorced, cell phone, cable, security, long distance, unecessary things cut off. my grocery budget is bare bones; i am living without air conditioning in houston texas. as a recently divorced woman, i don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for mom here.
Everyone agrees that any money given, won’t come back. So that said, how much is your mom working to turn things around/cut budget/increase cash flow? Maybe it’s better for her to turn over her assets to you and declare bankruptcy versus dragging you down along with her. I don’t think a 3k savings account will weather your own unexpected dilemmas let alone you your mom. If you’re both supporting her then you need to work out a plan by the numbers of how she’s going to get back on her feet. I think it sucks but since its your mom and your sister you might have to bite the bullet for awhile and support them both. However you need a plan of how to get everyone out from underwater. As i rambled earlier i would have all assets transferred over to me, then have mom file for bankruptcy. This will alleviate her debt while keeping the resources in your pocket to return to her after the creditors are done taking everything else. Later you can help co-sign with mom whenever she needs things involving credit and/or return her assets back to her. But it should really be done by the numbers. We have to support our families, especially our siblings, because your 14 yr old sister can’t go out and get a job.
Nodebtplan, ladykemma2, miles, etc. – so do you think it is perfectly fine for a 20 year old to live there for free and to consider any money she contributes to rent a loan? SHE LIVES THERE!!!! She is the part of the household, so don’t you think expenses are her responsibility as well? Divide $2000 by 24 months – this is the time Rachel lived in the place since she turned 18. Do you think this is really 1/3 of rent? After she moves out, maybe she should consider how much money she actually owes her mother?
@ladykemma2 – so you’d be OK supporting two daughters, one of whom is over 18, works, but instead of helping you pay rent takes her money to the bank or “lends” you the money for rent? Would you be happy with this type of arrangement?
@nodebtplan: A daughter should show her mother how to budget? Does the daughter have any experience of paying for home, food, utililties? Budget what? clothing, make-up and entertainment?
If the daughter indeed contributes to rent, I apologize. Otherwise, we should really stop judging the mother and start judging the spoiled brat instead.
@New Leaf – Thanks. I have to admit that I was a rather spoiled brat myself and wasn’t contributing my fair share when I lived with my parents as an undergrad. I guess it takes one to know one. At the same time I had someone living with me for a period of time who was saving money instead of giving me anything for expenses. I wasn’t struggling, but I still felt used. So I understand the mother.
It’s nice to see all the help/comments. I’d like to suggest that if your mother’s business isn’t covering the bills, then a change needs to be made. She needs to figure out something so she is not reliant on support payments, but can use them when she gets them. Personally, if I was in your position, I would make arrangements to help, by sharing rent, (yes, moving in together if you have moved out) but make it clear that you want to move on someday, and that your mother has to have a plan.
Turn the question on it’s head. If you were having problems, with no place to go, would your mother help _you_ out? Give you a place to live?
Help before things go too far, but if your going to help, look at everything, (land taxes, car payments, etc..) far down the road to be sure that no surprises are going to show up, and that you are actually able to give the help that’s needed and will be needed.
I haven’t read all the comments, but here are my two cents: there’s nothing you can really do, so try not to agonize about it.
I would want desperately to help my family if I was in your situation – and if you were older, earned more income, or had more assets you might be able to do so. As it stands, though, you have little to give. You literally can’t afford to debate whether or not to enable your mother to continue her (apparently poor) financial habits.
Your mom is going to have to make big changes – get a new job (or two), move, slash expenses, apply for government assistance, or some combination. If you try to help her by giving her a few hundred dollars here and there, all that will accomplish is postponing the time when she hits rock bottom; and you’ll be right there at rock bottom with her.
As a concrete way to deal with the situation, I’d advocate pretending you don’t have anything to give (which you really don’t anyway). When your mom asks for money simply say “mom I don’t have any money to give you, but is there anything else I can do to help?”
Good luck; this is a VERY tough situation.
I think Mary, in post #14 gave the best answer!!!
mysticaltyger, Meg, so do you think it is perfectly fine for a 20 year old to live WITH her mother and not pay rent, not contribute but take money to the bank instead and treat whatever money she gives to her mother towards rent for a place where Rachel lives too as a loan instead of her fair share?
You advice seems to be – don’t help, you have no money to give until you can move out. Or did you somehow missed the fact that Rachel lives there most likely for free?
Have you thought that the mother could’ve chosen a smaller apartment if Rachel hadn’t lived there? Do you think mother’s utility bills would’ve been smaller if Rachel hadn’t been there? What about food? Why is it Rachel’s right to live there rent-free as part of the household and contribute nothing?
“…Finally, JD over at Get Rich Slowly talks about something we rarely discuss in the personal finance world — how to deal with relationships when you’re doing well financially but your family is not. As a side note, JD vents about the lack of information out there available for people dealing with relationships and money…”
I am going thru a similar situation with my parents. I am married and 28 years old with a stable job a multiple positive cash flow rental properties. I live a very frugle life that causes most on the outside to believe that I am actually quite poor (just bought a $400 car).
My father is 75 years old and has given my mother (20 years younger than him) an upper class lifestyle for 30 years of marriage. His business is highly volatile and risky. He has made and lost millions many times. He is also heading into his 76th year with zero retirement funds and considering selling their home (the last asset) TO INVEST IN THE SAME CRAP THAT CAUSES HIM TO LOSE IT ALL AGAIN AND AGAIN.
My mother is considering divorce for the mere mention of selling the home.
She won’t downsize and change here lifestyle while he won’t simply move his assets into more stable or reasonable ones.
I am meeting with my father next week to discuss finances over beer and the backyard BBQ.
I strongly believe this could all be dealt with easily with a reverse mortgage and if my mother would ease up on her spending habits ($10/bottle organic window cleaner for example)and my father quite his highly risky investing.
I have a strong feeling that neither will happen.
Oh yah, and my mother in law was just checked into a mental hospital over a suicide attempt.
Arghggggghghgh @!#$!@#$%^#$*&#$!@
Kitty – that’s a great point that she does potentially owe her mother something for feeding/housing her, if in fact that’s what’s been going on. The impression I got was that she HAS been helping her mother financially, to no avail. Even if that’s not the case, I don’t think help should be proactively offered in all situations regardless of whether or not you “owe” your parents.
What if your mom was an alcoholic or drug addict and couldn’t pay her rent. Do you “owe” it to her to “lend” her money for rent that you know you’ll never see again? Most would say no. And from what I can tell here this girl shouldn’t help her mother either.
The mom is continuing to work at her “business” (which we have no idea what that is) yet cannot come close to making ends meet. She’s considering bankruptcy. She’s been “drowning” for a long time. I think it’s obvious that emptying her savings to “lend” her mom money is futile and won’t help – it’ll only hurt them both and likely their relationship as well.
After years and years for trying to help my mother take care of herself I’ve come to the realization that she isn’t my responsibility. And more over, someday it might very well fall to me to take care of her. So today, while she can manage, even if it’s just scraping by, I let her. I was constantly stressed out thinking about ways to solve her problems and I realized that I just couldn’t keep it up. And while she still has a whole lot of issues, since I’ve attempted to be more hands-off she has made more attempts to handle things herself. She even opened an ING account last month.
Is your mom working as many jobs as you are?
Has she cut back on all of her expenses?
Does she use coupons?
Is your sister babysitting or doing other odd jobs to pay for unnecessary expenses?
If the answer to all of those is yes, then I think you can feel good about helping them out. If the answer is no, then you might ask yourself how yr mom can be comfortable asking you for money when she is spending her own unwisely.
I realize that there is a lot of emotion and circumstance involved in this situation, so I am just addressing the issue at its core.
I have a similar, if not worse situation.
My mother-in-law was diagnosed with Stage III ovarian cancer about two years ago, only a year after our wedding. Our marriage was young, and we were naive, and we chose to help pay for some of his parents’ bills while she underwent chemotherapy. She went into remission a few months later, but by this time, my father-in-law decided that he was “too depressed to work” and applied for disability. We could not stop sending checks at this point, because they still had very little income. (Even though she had gone back to work.) She came out of remission a few months later, this time Stage IV. My FIL still did not go back to work. They had bills to pay and NO income, so we could not stop sending checks.
Now, two years later, she is fighting a losing battle, and is worried about how they will be able to pay the bills, since her dead-beat husband won’t work. I called and talked to an elder at her church, who agreed that the church would now step in to help, so that we could stop sending checks that we see as “enabling” my FIL to shirk all responsibility. I sometimes feel like the worst daughter-in-law in history, but I couldn’t justify sending that money if my FIL was not willing to even TRY to find gainful employment in order to take care of his dying wife! And we have debts of our own, which have been neglected in order to help them for all this time.
I think the others are right, it depends on the attitudes and behaviors of the family members who need help. Sometimes the best way to help them is NOT with a check, but with guidance and support. And remember that once you start sending checks regularly, you may not be able to gracefully stop.
I totally understand your dilemma. But there are a few factors that you should weigh out. First let me start by saying that everyone knows you want what’s best for your family.
The questions you have to answer are:
1) Would I be bailing them out and setting them on a proper course towards financial freedom, or would I just be delaying the innevitable?
2) Would it be better to help myself first and place myself in a position to later help them out more? Anyone who has been on an airplane has heard the saying “be sure to secure your own oxygen mask before helping another person with theirs.”
The point is, you shouldn’t sabotage your finances in order to delay what is going to innevitably happen. I know this may come off as cold, but in the long term it could be for their own good as well as yours.
-Adam
A similar situation happened to my brother when he was 20, when me and my Mom were homeless. He sent his rent check so we could come to live in his almost studio apartment. We were on our feet again but later on Mom’s financial situation was bad again and the stress made me move out. A year or three later she moved in with me because if felt bad due to her situation. The resentment of her inability to take care of herself made me so angry and helpless. I asked for help from my brother and he took her in a few months before she died of a Stoke. She was 57. Life challenges us so much when we think we can help someone else or wish they made better choices.
My advice set boundaries, give her information in books, links, etc. and help monetarily when you want to. Maybe her self-esteem or depression is the cause beyond her financial circumstance. I had to learn this myself as I have made many a financial mishap. I could blame my Mom but she did the best she could with who she was at the time. There is never an easy answer when it comes to family.
I would try to help her find a support system: church, friends, lawyer, credit counseling, state aid if she qualifies, and therapist. If she doesn’t take the help you can offer, informational resources and emotional support you have done your duty even if it feels crummy. It’s best to teach a woman to fish as that doesn’t band aid the problem and she can get back on her feet again.
A healthy reminder that you don’t want to be where she is when you are her age so you need to make sure that your financial and emotional health are solid. I think you are on the right course for building yourself.
Hugs,
Jen
Wow, I almost cried with joy when I found this site. I am going through a financial struggle with my family, and I know Rachel is in a very tough decision.
My advice: don’t get sucked into giving out money. I was doing this and it crashed down on me hard this week.
I think setting up an account for the little sister is a good way to go. She is only 14 and if anyone hires her at all, it won’t be many hours or much money under child labor laws. Children are not culpable in this sort of situation.
I actually did the same thing for my 19-year-old sister two years through ING since my mom lost her house to foreclosure (this came 10 years after my dad, the breadwinner, died of an illness). While she is school, my sister has severe medical and mental problems and has only had one job in her life, when she was 16. I have three and am finally making enough to help, but I also just bought my first property, and now have a mortgage to pay.
My mom, however, has no high school degree and just got laid off from her job. Even before my dad died, however, she has not had the best financial management skills. In addition to helping my sister, I’ve also given her thousands in the last year and a half. Instead of getting another job, she is choosing to get unemployment.
I was supposed to give my sister my car (I was going to ride the 8 miles to work or take public trans and just do without a car) to drive to school, until my mom lost her job and I knew she couldn’t pay for insurance or maintenance and hit me up for my next pay check (honestly, I’d be left with $55 for the week) to get my sister car insurance. I said I would not be giving my sister the car until the financial situation improved because I would not pay the insurance on a car that was no longer mine every month and continue to help my mom with other random things every month.
Well, I got very angry phone calls from both my mother and my sister that I was selfish and it is wrong of me to just not hand a car over I know they can’t pay for! In addition, my sister, who has used the savings account I set up for her to pay for books, college courses and a new computer, told me that she never asked for my help!
So, just an FYI that all of your best intentions for your family still might result in you feeling bad.
Dear Rachel,
When I was in high school, I was forced to get a job to cover personal medical expenses because my parents couldn’t afford to pay them for me. I was fine with that. After a few months, they began asking for help with the bills. By graduation, I was giving them half my pay as “rent”. They never borrowed with the intention of paying me back. They basically told me that without help, our family was going to starve and lose our house. Now I’m 25, I never got to go to college because I couldn’t save a dime, it all went toward funding the family money vacuum. I pay $400 a month in “rent” and the rest disolves into utilities and etc. Funny, now that I’m struggling to find the money to go to school, that I notice all the little things. I couldn’t afford a laptop, but my father could buy himself one. I spent my income tax return to pay off my medical bills. They spent theirs on a 32″ television. They make me feel guilty when I mention any desire to move out on my own, and I cave, because that’s what I’ve let myself become. I can’t live for myself. There’s a line that has to be drawn if you want to live for yourself; a very fine line. I failed it once and I’ll never be able to to do it if I fail again. The best I can hope for is that someday, I can stand in the middle of it at least, and do something I want that can help them and myself. Your mom made some mistakes and she needs to try and fail on her own or you’ll still be there, planning for college that you’ll never attend, wishing you could turn the clock back and do it different.
Having bailed out my mom and sisters for years, I can tell you that the moment I said no more checks, not more wired money … Magically they were able to figure out their finances and afford bigger and better things. (In my sister’s case, why did someone who already own a Lexus AND Mercedes need to turn to me who is driving a $12K Toyota Yaris)
They sometimes struggle a little, but they figure it out. They’re not on the streets, my nephews have nice things too. I told them they didn’t pay me back and that was fine that the money was lost. I forgave the debts. I would suggest Rachel forget about the $2000 her mom owes her (and don’t make a big deal to your mom about letting it go as if you’re a hero) and move on.
I’m so grateful to have found this thread. There are SO MANY people who deal with financially irresponsible parents, and yet it’s a problem that’s rarely discussed or written about.
My own parents have been in a perpetual state of financial chaos for most of my 36 years. They have already lost one house and are set to lose another very soon. Their phone rings non-stop with collection calls. They’ve had the sheriff show up multiple times to repossess cars. It is absolute insanity, and I just don’t understand how they can live that way!
My dad has been out of work several times over the years, which has caused them to get behind on bills. But their real problem is simply bad choices. Buying a house they couldn’t afford. Buying two new cars on the same day at absolutely ridiculous interest rates. A classic case of living beyond your means.
I don’t know what advice to give Rachel, because I haven’t figured it out myself yet. It’s truly one of the most difficult positions a person can be in, because it involves so much emotion. For me, it’s just further proof that we desperately need basic financial education for EVERY American citizen. Perhaps people would make better choices if they were armed with better information.
When you have a parent who is drowning financially while you are flourishing there are a number of ways to be helpful – and one of them is setting your own future up for success. When your parents are no longer able to work they may need your support more than they need a thousand dollars here and there along the way. If they have to lower their living standards now, that’s sad, but that doesn’t mean you should endanger your own future, and possibly become a burden to your own children. Anyone who is capable of working more, spending less, or both, should simply do it.
Many people seem to think they shouldn’t have to live simply. There was a time when my living expenses were under $500 a month. That was pre mortgage, cell phone, high speed internet, sat. tv. I shared a small apartment and ate cheap food. And if I needed to I could do it all again. I would never ask anyone to help me with the expenses I’ve listed above. I think it would be an insult.
OK. No one will probably read this since the thread is years old.
To all the moms out there who replied, “It’s likely her mom is in trouble because of things both parents did to provide a good childhood,” um, nope. Read the woman’s comment: they were well off after they sold the house. It wasn’t until got into trouble gambling and with the IRS that things got dicey for mom, because the child support wasn’t coming in regularly.
To those who think tough love isn’t due the mom because dad started the mess, um, nope. If mom is continually relying on dad–who’s proven himself irresponsible–for money, then she’s being irresponsible herself. To continually enable her to string her own self along in this dicey situation isn’t going to do anything but teach her to rely on others.
I’m in a similar situation, but unfortunately, there’s a lot of distance (both physically and metaphorically) between my mom and me. So my mom gets tough love.
One thing the woman who wrote in might consider (especially now, that her habits are two years further ingrained) is to set aside her plans for some short period and help her mom change her circumstance enough to make a real change. One shot deal. Sink or swim. Because the daughter is ultimately responsible for herself. And mom wouldn’t really want to put her own daughter into the same situation that she’s facing. Right?