Class consciousness and social mobility
Kris and I have returned from three weeks traveling in Argentina and Chile with a group from our university alumni association.
My favorite parts of these trips are when we get to interact with the locals, not just because I can use my Spanish, but also because it’s a chance to see how they live their lives. I did get to do some of that on this trip, but not as much as I would have liked. Most of the time, we were wrapped in a protective bubble — sometimes figuratively, sometimes almost literally as we traveled Patagonia in a giant tour bus.
Whenever I travel, I revisit certain recurring themes, such as:
- The amount of Stuff I own. Even after downsizing to this apartment, I come home and wonder why I have so many things.
- The quality of the food I eat. Even in the poorer countries I travel to, there’s so much high-quality fresh food. Sure, there’s processed food and junk food, but most people seem to eat lots of whole foods at every meal.
- The relative costs of things. Gas is so cheap in the United States, which just encourages us to drive more. Junk food is cheap too, encouraging us to eat more of that. Entertainment is also cheap. But books and clothing and many other things seem expensive.
- The nature of wealth. What does it mean to be rich? Most of us in the U.S. have a lot of money by world standards, yet we often seem poorer when it comes to family and friends. We’ve created a society that isolates us. We’re short on social capital.
This trip, though, the theme that ran most strongly through our travels was the concept of class. I don’t often write about class at Get Rich Slowly — I’ve only touched on it a couple of times in the six years this site has existed — because it’s a complicated and sensitive subject. But during my trip to Patagonia, I thought about the subject a lot.
A Few Anecdotes
One night in Santiago, Chile, our group of fourteen split into two groups of seven. Each group went to a different local family’s home for dinner.
The hosts for our dinner were lovely. They were smart and funny and charming. Their English was excellent. (The daughter-in-law of the family had taught herself English by watching Friends and by listening to English-language rock music.) But I’m not convinced this family was typical. They lived in downtown Santiago, near the top of a gated (and secure) high-rise apartment building. Their apartment contained many rooms and fancy furniture. I got the impression that this family was wealthy.
The other people from our group went further afield. They dined on the back patio of a home in the suburbs of Santiago. Over their meal, the conversation drifted to politics. The father of the family opined that Chile and Argentina and Uruguay are superior to the countries of northern Latin America because they’re more European, there are fewer indigenous people.
I was shocked when I heard about this discussion. I loved Peru, and much of that was because the native population is prominent, the native culture is strong. I had just been complaining to Kris that one thing I didn’t like about Argentina and Chile was the lack of personality. The countries do feel European, but a very vanilla sort of European. Besides, the man’s comment seemed very classist, if not outright racist.
A few nights later, lounging under the tropical stars of Easter Island, I asked our guide, Ignacio, about the concept of class in South America. “The class system here is very strong,” he told me. “There’s certainly a wealthy class, and everyone knows it. Not just in Chile, but in other countries too, even Peru. Especially Peru.”
Tangent: Our guide was full of little insights. We were talking about how most U.S. travelers seem to be retirees, and they’re not very adventurous. Ignacio had an explanation: “When you’re young, you have strength and ideas, and you want to see the world, but you don’t have the money. When you’re old, you have money, but all you want to do is lie down and rest.” Succinctly stated.
“People in Santiago are rich,” he told us. “They have big houses but all they see are walls. Here on the island, you’re surrounded by people, you have small houses filled with families: uncles, aunties, lots of kids. When I lived in Santiago, I cried every night. People were afraid to go outside because they’d be robbed. Here, people go anywhere they like. They’re free.”
Matu’a’s comments prompted Florence, a retired school teacher, to talk about her experience with class in India. Her husband was from India, and she’s spent a lot of time there, and she says that although things seem to be slowly changing, the caste system is still a part of society.
By chance, on Friday (my first full day back from the trip) I listened to a Spanish-language podcast about social status in Spain.
One of the hosts noted that when people meet each other in many countries, it’s common to ask, “What do you do?” In Spain, he says, that’s not the case. Instead, people ask “How is your family?” This is partly because family is much more important in hispanic cultures, but it’s also because of questions of class. When you ask what a person does for a living, you risk touching on class differences, and that’s frowned upon.
Also on Friday, I asked my Spanish tutor a little about this subject. (But only a little — I hope to talk about it more with her tonight.) She confirmed that, in Peru at least, these class differences do exist, and that everyone is well aware to which class they belong. And often it’s possible to tell to which class others belong.
“But, J.D., it’s the same here in the U.S.,” she said, which I found interesting. I think many of us — including me — like to believe that there aren’t huge class differences in the U.S. (despite the whole 99% vs. 1% thing). But deep down, I realize that’s not the case, and my own experience is an example.
I grew up in a family that had always been poor, a family that had lived for nearly 100 years in rural Oregon, barely getting by. The things we had and said and did were “lower class”, even if I didn’t know it at the time.
Even today, many of things I say and do are uncouth. And there are absolutely moments in my life where I feel out of place because I know I’m in a situation where class matters, that I’m out of my element. I might be with a friend, for instance, meeting his parents at their luxurious home, and suddenly become aware that there are tacit rules of engagement that I’m not following because I don’t have the same class background. When these moments occur, I try to escape as soon as possible.
Example: One very clear example of class consciousness occurred on our trip to Peru last autumn. One night, Kris and I dined at Brujas de Cachiche, one of Lima’s top restaurants. There was a huge celebration that evening, with all sorts of local celebrities in fancy dinner jackets and flowing dresses. Kris and I were wearing zip-off travel pants and t-shirts. I felt like a fool. We ate quickly and got out of there.
The Economic Mobility Project
Four years ago, I shared some info from the Economic Mobility Project, a nonpartisan group exploring “the ability to move up or down the income ladder within a lifetime, or from one generation to the next.”
Among the findings from the Economic Mobility Project’s research are these:
- “Across every income group, Americans are more likely to surpass their parents’ income in absolute terms if they earn a college degree, reinforcing the conventional wisdom that higher education provides a means for opportunity.” You are four times more likely to move from poverty to wealth if you earn a college degree than if you do not.
- “Family background plays an equally, if not more important, role than education.” If you are born into wealth, you have a 23% chance of remaining wealthy if you don’t obtain an education. Yet if you’re born into poverty, you only have an 19% chance of moving to the top, and that’s if you earn a college degree. (There’s only a 5% chance if you don’t get an education.)
- “Data show that…there is ‘stickiness’ at the ends of the wealth distribution.” About one-third of those born into poverty remain in poverty. About one-third of those born into wealth remain wealthy. (There’s a lot of movement up and down among the middle-class, however.)
I’m one of the fortunate few who’s been able to move from poverty to wealth. I did this through education, hard work, and luck. (Yes, luck plays a role. No question.) But though I’ve made the switch on paper, mentally I’m still the same person I always was. I have the same habits and attitudes that I developed 30 or 35 years ago, growing up poor in a rural farming community. That’s why I get uncomfortable when faced head-on with a situation that contains an element of class distinction.
Note: As I always do in these discussions, I’ll point out that if you’re reading this from the U.S., it’s very likely that while you may be part of the 99% here, on a worldwide scale you’re probably one of the 1%. Check out the Global Rich List for more info.
Conclusion
This is an article where I don’t really have a thesis. I’m not trying to drive home any point, and there are no takeaways that you can put to use in your life. Instead, it’s a sort of meditation. I don’t often think about class differences, and yet there’s no question they play a role in our lives.
I wonder if class generally seems invisible to me because of where I live. Portland is a unique city. For better or worse, people are, well, casual here. I don’t think you can tell who is doing well and who is not. People dress and act casually, so that there’s a subtle blending of classes. I think this frustrates many folks who move here from other parts of the country. I know a woman who moved here from Philadelphia. She gets dressed up to go out for fast food. Portlanders don’t get dressed up even for a nice restaurant. And I know a fellow who grew up in a wealthy family in Houston, Texas. He seems amused by Portland’s pathological casualness. When everyone dresses and acts the same, it’s tough to play your class roles.
I’m curious: Does the concept of class play a role in your life? When are you aware of class differences? All the time? Never? How do you feel when you become aware of these differences in any given situation? Also, I’m curious to hear from readers who identify themselves as upper class and readers who identify themselves as lower class. What makes you think of yourself in this way? (I believe most of us think of ourselves as middle class, so I’m curious about those who define themselves otherwise.)
Is class defined by your income? Is it defined by how much money you have? Both? Or is it something else entirely? Is it an attitude? A way of life? Or do you think that social status in the U.S. has vanished? (Also: How is class different than wealth? Or are they the same?)
Become A Money Boss And Join 15,000 Others
Subscribe to the GRS Insider (FREE) and we’ll give you a copy of the Money Boss Manifesto (also FREE)
There are 241 comments to "Class consciousness and social mobility".
My father’s a farmer, my mother a school teacher. She climbed the social ladder since her parents had a very small farm and did farm work at other farms.
I live in the Netherlands, and especially from say the 1970s to the 2000s university studies were sponsored by the government. So if you were poor but did well in school you could study at the university (which would be a bit harder than for richer kids since they probably were more stimulated by their parents, but still…).
Brothers and sisters from my father were the first generation to profit from this. They were smart. So when I, in the 1990s, also went to university, at least I had some examples of what you could do with a university degree.
But sometimes I would meet other students that I just couldn’t understand. They would talk about their skiing trips, their hockey club or the house that their parents bought for them so that they didn’t need to live in such a filthy student room. They would know more about the world of medicine (my study) because their mum and dad, granddad, uncles, older siblings were also doctors. I was mighty impressed when I was invited to dine with the professor (because of my good grades), they probably would have been more relaxed.
My mum told me a few years ago that I probably didn’t have many friends in high school because most students were from the higher class, and they looked down on me. It is likely that I also couldn’t understand their stories, and never had much to tell that they would find interesting. I would listen to their stories and not talk.
Currently I don’t meet many of these people anymore. We went different paths. I sometimes have brought up my farm background right after meeting someone just to set the records straight from the beginning, maybe sometimes to see how the other person reacts. I would still feel uneasy around “big shots” or famous people, and I tend to treat some people who are dressed well and behave politely with just a little bit of extra respect. (To my defense: I am always a polite and well-behaved person).
So I guess the past does influence current behaviour. But it also depends on who your are. My sister couldn’t wait to go to university and is currently enjoying the higher middle-class lifestyle of two cars, skiing trips and expensive holidays. And maybe later hockey for the baby that’s on the way.
I always thought the Netherlands was a more egalitarian society, like the nordic countries.
In Spain you can see strong differences, although the welfare state of public health and schooling makes the differences smaller than in other countries. But there is a way for many people of hating the ones which have money. In the other hand, having money is a bit like having an “aura”. Many people try to show they have money buying expensive cars, branded clothing, gadgets, etc. But sometimes this people is the same that tells you that rich people are criminals, so it’s a bit crazy.
Holland has class differences. Maybe not as much as in many other countries, but yes Holland has them. As do the Nordic countries.
So, in summary, one can be rich but not necessarily “culture rich”. I like that concept because being rich (or wealthy for that matter) is a combination of factors, such as, education, lifestyle, profession (prestige) and, not least, income.
.
Suppose a person has a high income but much debt and a high consumption lifestyle?
.
Suppose I live in a country where 15K dollars per year give you the lifestyle of 100K in New York? By the way, I once read that 150K is working class in New York.
Class used to play a role when I was a child, but now it does not seem to exist anywhere in my life.
A concept exists as long as it is given importance. The moment it loses its significance ,it loses its existence. There was a time when class was given importance and hence people were labelled accordingly. Some admitted their class in pride and some in shame and some never admitted it.But, now the society has changed to a great extent and most people don’t care about class. Even I don’t care about class. If someone asks me about my class then I may say that I belong to Middle Class. But, I am neither proud nor ashamed of being a Middle Class, because most of us belong to the Middle Class.
Today the world has stopped labeling according to class. The new labels are the following :
a) The Financially Independent ; &
b) The Working Class
I am happy to find myself around you people, who are committed to become Financially Independent.
I like the idea of people not thinking of class and/or not making a big thing of it (like Get Rich Point’s post and how JD described Portland), and I hope that such a trend can continue. However, from where I stand, I find that often the people who don’t see class lines or don’t notice differences are of the upper class. This may not be true, I admit, but it feels like they have the money and resources to be able to ignore class and class rules, and people will accept this because they have money. But lower class people who choose to ignore such things get booted from restaurants due to dress code or looked down upon due to their behavior (maybe they’re loud, maybe they have an accent, etc.) because they don’t enough money for people to overlook these social “mistakes.” Just some thoughts!
I agree, class is becoming much less obvious in ou society…but it does not mean it is not existant. As JD explained, “I wonder if class generally seems invisible to me because of where I live.” — In a nutshell, yes. When you live and associate with one group of people you do not see the other group of people.
The same can be said of ethnicity (I do not use RACE because race is made up and not based on anything biological. Race-ism, however is very real). If you live in a community with a dominant ethnicity (and say class) you are less likely to see differences because you re not around people unlike yourself.
Regarding JD’s shock at the comment, “Chile and Argentina and Uruguay are superior to the countries of northern Latin America because they’re more European, there are fewer indigenous people.”…. well, its common. Very common in Latin America. (except perhaps in countries where the president is indigenous, such as Bolivia). If we were to translate this comment to the US, it would likely be directed towards Mexican immigrants (which are viewed in a certain light by much of the US as being problematic).
No matter what…. excellent post. Class and ethnicity are extremely difficult to talk about (or listen to) if you never talk about it.
First, welcome home JD. AS an expat living in Thailand I know the joys of travel, but also the comfort of coming home.
Regarding class, it is also very strong here in Thailand and people are much less likely to shift classes than they are in the West. The majority of the country is agriculturally based and for most they are born, live and die as farmers. That is slowly changing as a middle class emerges in Bangkok, but elsewhere life is pretty similar to how it was at least 50, if not 100 years ago.
Here I think you will find the wealth divide to be much more pronounced than it is in the States, or so it seems. I would be willing to bet that the top 1% in Thailand control something like 90% of the wealth.
Interestingly, the best conversations and the friendliest people I’ve met are those that would be considered lower class by other Thais. They are more open and much more prone to fun and laughter. And that is saying a lot in a country known as “The Land of Smiles”.
@Money Infant: As someone who lives in SE Asia (Philippines!) I totally agree. It’s the same here. There’s definitely the 1% who controls the 90% of wealth alright. My family started out poor (parents married out of college, had zero means, predicted to fail, etc.) but now we’re part of the 1% (they started their own company and worked incredibly hard). It’s sometimes harder for us older kids to “mix” with what is supposed to be “our class” than it is for the younger kids (born much later when times were finally good and my parents felt that they could afford to have more kids). I’m shy of social gatherings unless it involves family and close friends. I’m still uncomfortable in public events that have sometimes become unavoidable. I just work on being unfailingly polite and try not to betray my nervousness. It’s funny how sometimes I feel like a faker even though I know my net worth is considerable. Which is really silly, when I think about it logically. It doesn’t explain my feelings though. Probably it is because I wasn’t born into it, maybe?
JD – Your class thing is showing in the comment about being improperly dressed in the Lima restaurant. Why were you so surprised about going to a “top restaurant” and finding everyone else was dressed formally? Would you wear tourist tshirts and zipoff pants to the French Laundry or Per Se or whatever the “top restaurant” in Portland is? Didn’t you realize when you made reservations that very casual American-tourist clothes would not be appropriate there? My experience is that while the tourist dollar is always welcome, the tourist attitude that “I’m traveling and its fine to wear whatever” especially from Americans is not. I’ve also found that internationally other people tend to dress much more formally than we do; and a top restaurant is a top restaurant no matter where you are in the world.
The clothes issue hits home for me, because my husband and I spent five football seasons following our son around the country for games, and I would love to have eaten in really good restaurants in some of the cities we visited. But when you travel in a numbered football jersey, and only take a carryon with clean underwear, toiletries and jammies, you can’t eat out in nice places. We ate a lot of Subway meals. Sigh.
I grew up middle class, (engineer dad, social worker mom) – but my husband’s parents were decided blue collar. I can see differences now in our values and attitudes even though he got an excellent education and is a professional.
And of course there’s a difference between class and wealth. When I was growing up in a nice middle class community, the doctor’s wife or banker’s wife or lawyer’s wife drove a Cadillac and wore a mink coat, and was unfailing polite and courteous to everyone – it was noblesse oblige. They had money and the class not to flaunt it. They were kind to the cleaning lady, tipped the babysitters well, and remembered your name. They also did a lot of real charity work and volunteered a lot. Where I live now there are pretty women who married guys who took rich (as we say in Texas) and they brag about their vacations and drive big honking SUVs and flash huge diamonds. They have money and no class. They hire illegal workers to clean and do yardwork and act as nannies to their kids, they undertip the pizza guy and their charity work involves a lot of buying new formal wear to go to big parties and see their picture in the paper. Not so much at the soup kitchen or the trailer park feeding kids during the summer when they don’t get a free school lunch.
Roberta, I would happily go to top restaurants in Portland wearing tourist clothes. I’ve done so in the past, and will do so in the future. It’s Portland. Nobody cares. Or if they do care, I don’t care.
Also, we didn’t realize this particular restaurant in Lima was so fancy when we went there. Our local guide had recommended it, so we made reservations. It seemed like a fun thing to do…
JD-
While I understand your mindset (I grew up in the pacific northwest too), I don’t think it is necessarily appropriate. I think there is a good middle ground. Some folks seem to care too little while others care too much about their appearance when going out.
And there’s the rub, to me. and its not a class thing. its the -there ais appropriate attire for appropirate events kind of thing. While i do nto do formal, I would NEVER wear shorts or zip pants to an expensive, upscale restaurant. If only because part of the point of going to an expensive, upscale restaurant is the ambiance, and yes the attire.
And I know of few countries in the world where you could go in zip pants to a nice restaurant and not be considered an ugly american.
Seattle is the same way, and it’s one of the things I love about it. If you want to get fancied up, you can, but jeans are appropriate pretty much everywhere. After fifteen years here I can definitely imagine forgetting how much importance people can put on appearances in other places.
I’m also from Seattle and am used to the “jeans, fleece, and sandals” everywhere dress code. But, on the few occassions that I’ve eaten at Canlis, I’ve appreciated the dress code. Sometimes it’s nice to not have to look at fleece and denim when you’re in a gorgeous place eating fancy food.
Born and raised in the Pacific Northwest, I’m accustomed to our “formal-wear optional” attitude. Class (or financial status) is not obvious by looking at what someone is wearing. I wonder if the requirement/expectation for dressing up is an effect of the local attitude toward class? The more important it is, the more important it is to dress the part?
I lived in Anchorage, Alaska for 17 years. You’d see people in tuxedos and formal gowns at the opera — standing next to people in jeans and flannel shirts.
I always say that it spoiled me for the rest of the world. When I moved to Chicago for a job at the Chicago Tribune, I had to wear real clothes to work every day vs. the jeans and T-shirts I wore while working at the Anchorage Daily News. Hated having to do stuff like iron blouses.
Now I live in Seattle and work at home so it doesn’t matter what I wear. A few years back I realized I was definitely a Seattleite because I walked to the grocery store in yoga pants, fleece top and sandals.
It’s not unusual for me to see people out in public wearing pajama pants and T-shirts. Every day is casual Friday here, it seems.
Just an observation … I grew up in Oregon still go back once or twice a year to visit family. Moved to NYC in my 30’s. When you talk about class in Oregon, and dressing casually, I think you’re talking about a certain age of people, a certain mind-set–a class talking about a class, so to speak–and excluding a large population of people who are very concerned with wealth and showing it. There’s a Portland and NW myth that’s perpetuated by the people who embrace it but it’s not the whole story.
My Oregon experience was that classism is alive and well there, at least in my profession, the law. If you look at who gets promoted in the law firms, you see a LOT of names that have been there since pioneer times. (You can tell because they are also the names of streets and that kind of thing.)
If your last name is Smith? Well, hopefully you’ll enjoy being an associate your entire career, if you’re not up-and-outed by your ten year class reunion. And now with the economy so bad, it seems like the kids just coming out of school basically HAVE to have connections (daddy at a law firm, daddy on the bench, you know the drill) even to get onto the first rung of the ladder.
I would love to see more about social class on GRS; in particular, about the phenomenon of “passing.” While JD may have been embarrassed by his zip-off pants at the restaurant, my experience mingling with the upper tiers has been that even in the fanciest clothes, I often feel like I am basically in a costume, wearing a mask, and that the people who REALLY belong there have an unspoken language that I will never understand.
Age and generation certainly has something to do with it, IMHO. I grew up in Seattle, and we wore white gloves and dresses to go shopping at Fredrick & Nelsons downtown and have lunch in their tea room. Now if I were going to a fancy restaurant, I would dress a bit nicer than my usual jeans and fleece vest, but I’m happier when I don’t have to.
Great post JD. But just to play devil’s advocate, if part of the travel experience is living like a local, wouldn’t that include respecting dining traditions that include attire and a particular set of manners? My travel philosophy is much like yours, in that I immerse myself in the culture of the people; however, I would also have to challenge myself to respect their customs when it comes to fine dining (and not those of casual Portland). Just my two cents :-).
I agree with JD on the dress code of Portland. You really can dress casual at nice restaurants and its no big deal.
The Northwest in general has a particularly casual attitude when it comes to dress.
Although I don’t doubt that you can wear anything to a top restaurant in your area and not feel out of place I would present a little challenge to see if class does still matter and you are just not noticing it.
If there is a top restaurant where you have dressed very casually in the past (or an upscale store) try going back there dressed a little nicer. Not overly formal, just a step or two above your normal attire. As long as you have not been there often enough that the staff would recognize you I would bet you will be treated differently. I have been treated differently by the same exact employees in various establishments depending on whether I was in jeans and flip flops or a dress and nice shoes. I was never treated rudely when dressed more casually, but its just a different level of attention.
Sure if you show up driving a porcshe and wearing designer clothes then the hostess and waiter may give you better service. I think that would just demonstrate that wait staff may expect they could get better tips from people who look like they have more money. People who work on tips may judge a book by the cover if they’re trying to hussle for better tips.
JD didn’t say that class doesn’t exist in Portland. He wondered if it was less visible cause people tend to dress casually.
Class exists in Portland, it’s just more subtly shown in clothing. And Portland had, when I was a child in the 1960s, a long-standing rich-people’s code, the first rule of which was “Don’t show off.” Don’t wear fur in public, don’t dress too nicely (even if you buy all your clothes in San Francisco), no fancy cars (certainly no chauffeured limos). It’s only new money that does those things. 🙂 So, you wear jeans to dinner or the opera but with a silk t-shirt (no band name or pithy slogan) and nice shoes. And there’s still a difference between gardening clothes and going out clothes: cleaner jeans without holes, nicer shoes, etc.
Sorry, but that is not a class issue, but one of laziness for not assuming that a nice restaurant might be, well nice. And actually arrogant to pass that off as them making you uncomfortable for your gaffe. And then further to compare standards to “back home”! So many things wrong with that, too bad because this detracts from good points you made.
Exactly. You can have class or be classy without being wealthy and you can be wealthy and unclassy.
What a great post!
I feel there is “class” whenever I step out my front door. Where I live, you can usualyy tell who has money and who doesn’t. It is not like some cities, where everyone drives a beater nd wears old clothes, and you do not reslly know who is wealthy and who is not.
I think that in my area, people seem to think everyone has the same privileges, and that is just not true.
As a non-American, the thing that always strikes me about the US is that people are proud of being middle class, and will go out of their way to tell you that they aren’t upper-class ( but their neighbors are) or try to out-compete each other with who came from a poorer, more hard-luck background, whereas elsewhere those topics usually aren’t discussed.
It results in some really weird (to me) discussions, with the guy earning 26,000 a year in a ex-urban house claiming he’s middle class, and the guy from New Yok claiming earning 250,000 a year doesn’t make him wealthy.
Kate, I think you’re right. I’ve noticed this too. It’s somehow very important for Americans to be thought of as middle class, probably because that puts them with almost everyone else. I’m not sure why this is important, but it’s part of our national psychology.
I am living this situation right now, I am from India and have been in US for 10 years, I found a new car I love (Mercedes) but I am afraid of loosing friends(public sector) at work and looking for less flashy but comfortable ride.If I were in India would have bought Mercedes and flaunt it. Learned through experience here that showing off would drive people away.
I think the fact that everyone wants to be middle class is due in part to the “American Dream”–that if you work hard enough, you’ll make a lot of money. The flip side to that is that if you don’t make a lot of money, you’re obviously lazy.
I distinctly remember my first encounter with the difference in social class. I was taking an intro to Sociology course, where social class was discussed. I always assumed that my folks where lower middle class: we had two cars, the farm was paid off, we didn’t buy “spendy” clothes but I always got new clothes for school. Then the instructor posted the breakdowns of “how much you made to be in x class” and I realized my parents barely made enough to be above the poverty level.
One reason that class is hard to measure is that we’re usually comparing gross incomes, not net income. My folks made $20,000 a year feel big because 1)they didn’t owe money and 2) Everyone else in the area (rural Minnesota) lived a similar life style.
Personally, and I haven’t read all the comments, I find it always rather odd that American people point fingers on former socialistic countries and call them not standing out, trying to hide in even-outness and not promoting differences, yet here, yes, majority is quite happy to be a middle class, afraid to show they are striving for better (and I am not even talking about money), and kids in school entered a generation where “everybody gets the same trophy”.
I’ll have to think how to word my answers to the questions at the end of the post, but there is no doubt social classes exist, and unless we are living in kibbutz’s (or utopian communism)it’s not going anywhere. It doesn’t mean one class belittles another, but they co-exist, merge, transform and live on.
p.s. I think where I grew up, and when I grew up (an important addition), class was more of an education, knowledge, profession, roots, and showing “class” when treating others, speaking or behaving otherwise. For a big part, people with high education had a salary lower than a good factory worker (who could also put overtime). Since small business didn’t exist, entrepreneur’s traits did not pay off. But a class was when one acted it, and it came from within. And yes, dressing up for an upscale restaurant, museum, concert and a theater was (and still is) a must. Only movies are watched in jeans. It is kind of respect for oneself thing, in my upbringing anyway. I run mountains wearing close to nothing, but I don’t do it when go to work, even though my job thrives on not caring about clothes.
It’s important to be middle class because of the utter demonization of wealthy people in this country (and the looking down on “the poors”). Especially since the rise of the progressive movement, being rich has made you a huge political target. For example, FDR pushed to tax people at 100% over $25K in income. Today you see similar strands of thought with current tax and budgetary proposals (“soak the rich”). Factor in the whole 99ers vs the 1% thing and you can easily see why people don’t want to be “rich” today. When being something is a political and cultural liability, people just want to be middle class just like everyone else.
(Disclaimer: my comment has nothing to do with the relative value or (im)morality of the policies I mentioned. It was a positive and not normative statement.)
One of my former professors often told this anecdote from his teaching. In a discussion of class in America, he asked his class to raise their hand if they were upper class. Only a couple in a class of one hundred raised their hand. Then he ask them to raise their hand if they were lower class – again only a few hands. Then he ask them to raise their hands if they considered themselves middle class – a groundswell of hands. And this was at an elite private school that costs a fortune to attend.
Unless you’re Paris Hilton, most people won’t admit that they are rich. It’s considered uncouth here to admit the obvious. But I think this ultimately does a disservice to the discussion and makes class matters and inequalities worse.
The New York Times parenting blog had an interesting discussion about this in December entitled “Mother are we the 1%?” The author tells of how in public a child asked his parents, “Are we rich?” They resoundingly said “No!”, even though they make over a million dollars a year.
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/mom-are-we-the-1-percent/
I think it may be hard for people in the US to admit they are rich precisely because so much of society demonizes them. Whether the complaint is they’re greedy, they don’t work hard, they were handed everything they have, they don’t pay their fair share, etc. — true or not true — that’s a tough label to bear. Conversely, when you hear those characterizations of the “rich,” if they do not describe you (e.g., you work very hard for long hours, you scrimped, saved, and invested to get ahead), you tend to deny that you are rich. It’s a case of the stereotypes not matching the hard money numbers. Also, there is dissonance because, as others have mentioned money does not necessarily equal class.
I agree, Sara. When I returned from Peru and Bolivia, I wrote a post that touched on some these same ideas (and some of the ideas in my own post today). I called it America’s love-hate relationship with wealth. I really think we send and receive mixed messages about money in this country. On the one hand, we worship and aspire to it. On the other, nobody wants to believe they’re rich…
“or try to out-compete each other with who came from a poorer, more hard-luck background, whereas elsewhere those topics usually aren’t discussed.”
That’s an interesting point, that Americans find a source of pride in upward class mobility. It may have to do with our insistence that we are all “equal;” even if we do not all have access to the same opportunities, we all have the freedom to work toward the American dream (which, in this day and age, is difficult to define). This freedom of opportunity promotes the competitive spirit necessary for capitalism to thrive.
You mean this guy from New York? 😉 http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2012/02/29/the-new-poster-child-for-class-warfare/
Interesting post, JD. I always wish you’d talk more about class here, but fully understand why you (largely) avoid it.
Have you read Limbo: blue-collar roots, white-collar dreams by Alfred Lubrano?
My parents (and their parents) have solid working class backgrounds, but my father managed to work his way up in a small company and ultimately get an executive position and, essentially, move us to middle class. I went to college and graduate school, and ultimately I travel in circles very different from those in which I was raised.
Reading Limbo was an eye opener for me. It’s comprised with information from thoughtful interviews with people in my class position, and reading it provided one of those rare occasions where people were saying things I had been feeling, but hadn’t articulated. Check it out…
Thanks for mentioning this book. I’ve been dealing with a lot of those issues and they can be a really dividing force in a family.
That book is great, “Limbo” was very helpful to my wife in understanding the transition from her blue-collar roots to the white collar world of being a doctor.
That is a fantastic book. Highly recommend it.
I would definitely identify as lower middle class (perhaps normal middle class in Malaysia where I was born, where we had a large house and a maid – I recall an exercise at school when I was about 5, being asked to draw the house in which I lived and describe it. I had no idea how to judge so said I lived in a small house, and I still remember my mother’s surprise when I brought it home and showed her – she pretty quickly told me we lived in a big house and were lucky).
My fiance is from a decidedly different class – quintessential white trash, as he’d say. I definitely know that I’m not quite like them, but I feel much more at home among them than I do among well-off business types at, say, swanky corporate events.
Of course it does. I spent all my life wanting to be upper middle class like my aunt and uncle the lawyers who lived in the ritzy suburb of a big city. To not have to have lower middle class worries and to be able to partake in upper middle class advantages. My husband’s family is from a rural small town where they have lived since the 1800s. Although he’s like a vampire in that he has to sleep in his home soil at least once a year, he can never go back to that life and lack of opportunity. Our children will grow up without a clue about what they’re missing.
I love this topic and it will get politicized.
When perusing the Economic Mobility Project you stumble upon: “The results show that in the United States, there is a stronger link between parents’ education and children’s economic, educational, and socio-emotional outcomes than in any other country investigated.”
Yet in these times, we have an educational financing system under attack. The rising costs to the individual make it so that our system is trending toward a caste.
We even have a current presidential candidate that call’s Obama a “snob” for thinking everyone should aspire for a college education.
It amazes me the grips the conservative rhetoric has on so many that they vote against their own self interests.
I want to be apart of a system that gives as many people as possible a chance to move up the economic spectrum. The current political discourse seems like an attack on that and I hope the general population wises up come this fall.
I suspect that there is a class stratification in Portland. It could be that you either are privileged enough to ignore it (the president at my company thinks the IT support is great, he never has to wait two weeks for a fix), or because you don’t twig on it as class, but instead ‘interests’.
I’ve read these comments with great interest. I live in Baltimore, but my business is modeled after an acupuncture clinic conceived in that eclectic Portland being described here. As an acupuncturist working in Portland, the founder noticed that most clients were either upper middle class (had lots of money to spend on private treatments) or below working class (qualified for treatments at subsidized public health centers). Neither of these environments felt comfortable to her. She decided to found a clinic for her friends and neighbors. She called it Working Class Acupuncture.
Her definition of class encompasses many of the ideas here, including income, education level, and relative importance of family and other social connections, “social capital.” She describes differences in class by describing three women hosting a party. The upper class party would have printed invitations, fancy dress, expensive foods, expensive entertainment. The middle class might have printed or email invitations, more casual but still “Sunday best” dress, party foods, possibly hired entertainment. The working class party would more typically have verbal invitations, eclectic dress, potluck foods, and entertainment would be personal and self-produced. This illustration really helped me look at class as dependent more on priorities and norms of behavior than on money and education alone. My family has enough money and education to put us solidly in the middle class, but our values reflect the farming/coal mining backgrounds of my grandparents. Our parties are SOOOO working class!
This resulted in me following the social business model of Working Class Acupuncture, where health care is offered living room style, rather than in a medical, “Eastern,” or health clinic style. For the full description of class, check out “Acupuncture is Like Noodles” by Lisa Rohleder et. al.
Thanks for all these comments. Keep up the great writing, JD!
I don’t think you’ll find many people who claim to be upper OR lower class. Both phrases have connotations of judgment and are somewhat taboo to use.
To me the most obvious difference between poverty/wealth and “class” is stigma or judgment, typically of mannerisms and language. A person raised middle-class who becomes poor can “pass” but if you grew up in the projects or a trailer park, chances are that you will stick out like a sore thumb in a middle class situation.
The reason we can’t really talk about class is that we don’t have it in this country, what we have is an amalgamation of a lot of things – culture, race, ethnicity, language/accents, education, wealth/poverty – that in certain combinations can come to define someone in a stereotyped way or allow them special access.
“…what we have is an amalgamation of a lot of things — culture, race, ethnicity, language/accents, education, wealth/poverty — that in certain combinations can come to define someone in a stereotyped way or allow them special access.”
So true. My mother is Latina and my father is Caucasian. I guess we were lower middle class when I was growing up, though I’m not sure how that’s really defined. I mean, I never went without, but we weren’t rich.
When I moved into my first apartment, the movers, who were also Latino, wanted to know “how a Mexican girl affords a place like this.” (It was a nice apartment, but pretty average in my city, as was my salary.) There also are people who’ve been surprised that I’m not a “country bumpkin” because I grew up in a small Texas town and don’t speak like they’d expect.
I’m middle class, but as an ex-boss said, I’d “feel at home at a chili cook off or at the Governor’s mansion.” He meant it as a compliment, but really it’s because I never wanted to appear like my social skills were lacking, so I became good at blending in.
I’ve been assigned a class many times based not on income, since the person would have no idea what I made, but on my race, where I grew up, how I speak, and the way I dress, which is usually nicer than my very casual city calls for.
My mom was from a “white trash” (her words) family of folks who worked in fields and factories and never got anywhere. She was the first person in her family to finish high school.
My dad’s family was solidly blue-collar: farmers, carpenters, factory workers. He was the first person in his family to go to college — after marrying at 18, fathering four kids in five years and doing jobs like driving tractors and trucks and working in the glass factory. He’d gone to electrician school but couldn’t pass the exam for some reason, so his longest-running job was repairing assembly-line machinery at an automobile plant.
One of their four kids got a two-year degree for a professional (dental hygienist); two of us got university degrees in midlife; the fourth was a corrections officer.
To be honest, I get along equally well with “intellectuals” and “regular folks.” But I think I feel more comfortable with the regular people because I don’t feel that I need to “perform” with them. All the years that I didn’t have a college degree (just got it two years ago), I felt that I was playing a role — and that if anyone asked where I went to school, my non-answer would get me kicked out of the group.
I was invited back to speak at the community college, at the same scholarship donor reception I’d helped set up as a work-study student a few years back. At the end of the program, I automatically started to help clean up. I felt bad watching students — who looked as tired as I must have looked — stacking chairs and carrying away dirty plates. Who did I think I was, anyway?
Yes, in many ways it does feel like playing a role. If I talk a certain way or express certain opinions, some members of my Latino family think I’m acting “white.” And if I ask my Caucasian family to pass the Cholula, they’re gonna look at me like I’m nuts. I’m in two worlds. It’s the same with wealth, too. My parents started out poor, my family is middle class now, but I’ve been in many situations where the people I’m around are wealthy.
I suppose I could say whatever and act however I wanted, but that’s just not me. In social situations I’d rather make the other parties comfortable. In other words, when I’m around family and “regular” people like myself, I spoon my soup toward myself, and on the few occasions when I’m among the upper class, I spoon soup away from myself. 🙂
I like to *think* it doesn’t play a role, but I’ve become recently aware that it does. For one thing, I have some family (not parents thank goodness) where money, house location and job are everything. I was quite literally told I am ruining my life several times when I chose to pursue some internships (and now a job) that they don’t think are “good enough.”
Second, in an effort to make some extra cash (your advice at work), I took a part-time job as a tutor for a company who caters to people who have a LOT of money. I tutor kids in mansions and often feel as though I am doing or saying the wrong thing. And when talking to the kids it becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly that they are in a whole different world than I am or ever was. Example, last night I was there to make sure a client did his homework (no joke, I sat there and watched him read textbooks…and these sessions are not cheap) and he was AMAZED that I didn’t get to go skiing every spring break.
Here in the UK class if very much defined by what school you went to – if it was a private or not. That is how most people look at you and your family. Especially at University – the private school crowd are only friends with privately schooled people.
Definitely Britain is a hotspot of social class. What is interesting is that you are not in one class or other regarding your income, you’re regarding your birth, social values and accent.
I’m living in the UK for the year and get a much different reaction here than in the US when I tell people that I went to a boarding school. In the US, people ask me what I did to deserve it (assuming I was trouble and my parents shipped me off so they wouldn’t have to deal with me), whereas in the UK I get the impression people assume I’m upper class, and perhaps a snob. This explains it!
You are 100% right. Boarding School usually means private school and a LOT of people judge you on that.
You could be an elite Doctor/Banker/Lawyer yet people will always ask where you went to school. It’s a legacy you cannot kick!
I am an African and lived in the US for a few years before moving to a northern European country. The one thing I noticed in the European country was that there seemed to be no class – everybody seemed to be on the same level. I was shocked to hear that one family friend was a millionaire but you could have never guessed it by looking at or hearing him talk. One thing that I also learnt was that you do not ask what someone does for a living because that would be trying to classify somebody. I found it interesting especially after living the US where people asked for your name, country of origin and type of work. I would say I liked the culture in the country up north.
In my country, you can tell from people’s dressing what class they are in and usually people get treated accordingly which is unfortunate. Class is quite prevalent.
My very first thought was if you really grew up unaware of class then you weren’t as poor as you thought OR you were very insulated with your particular class all around you.
My husband and I grew up very aware of class. Largely, I think, because our parents valued education and many people with similar financial situations didn’t. So, when you’re the kid on scholarship at a top notch school, your bad teeth and cheap clothes slap a giant “P” for poor on your head. Also, the inability to participate in the activities of your peers due to lack of funding makes you keenly aware that others have more money.
There was a time I was very intimidated by rich people. Whether it’s because we’ve aged or because we’ve gotten our teeth fixed and can afford virtually everything we want, I can’t say, but I can say that we no longer care about class. Perhaps it’s because we certainly still know many lower class people and via our children’s schools, we run into CEO’s of major corporations (other parents) with some regularity. In any case, we’re in that place where we really can look past someone’s income and decide if they’re a nice person or a jackass.
And in all situations, I have found the Golden Rule to work just fine, so I try to treat people as I’d like them to treat me. And that’s the lesson of class that we’re trying to pass along to our children.
Awesome and wise last paragraph.
Amen to that. As a baby boomer, I’ve enjoyed the move up from my parent’s working class background until recently, when I moved back down. Along the round trip (I guess that’s social mobility…ha!), I, too, observed the Golden Rule, tried to keep my head down, eyes and ears open and my mouth shut, so I could learn as much as I could about anything or anyone who interested me. So, now, and like Mom of Five, I don’t know if it’s a result of aging and not caring, but I define class as those who value themselves and others and treat each accordingly, and those who don’t. And you can be dirt poor, fabulously wealthy or somewhere in between and be either a great person or a real classless jerk! However, I get that society as a rule doesn’t use those guidelines, but I do and I act accordingly, so people think I have money, when I oh so don’t.
JD,
Thank you for this article. I grew up in the upper class. I am the third generation on both sides of my family to go to college. My father’s income has moved up and down from the high six figures to the low seven figures all of my life.
We’ve traveled, lived overseas and with this “lifestyle,” comes a complete understanding of all the unspoken rules that exist in upper class societies.
I see class differences most clearly when the upper and lower classes interact. People from my class background appear to be stupid, selfish boors when interacting with people from lower and working class backgrounds (“Why do have to fix the car yourself? Why not just take it your mechanic??”). People from working-class and lower class backgrounds appear to be awkward and unsure of themselves in upper class settings.
This is entirely undertandable. We place a premium on neatness, voice modulation and a kind of language that seeks to hide as much as it reveals. The kind of direct, plain-spoken English I experience when interacting with working-class people is largely absent amongst my class peers.
I grew up with the expectation that the world will conform to my needs/wishes. My wife, who grew up in a mixed class household, has a much harder time demanding fair treatment from doctors, for example. We have discussed that some of this behavior may be a result of her gender; but we’ve also discussed that her father struggles with the same issues.
I also believe that while my income is solidly middle-class, I do not identify with that class background because my cultural class is and will always be, upper class.
I think we do ourselves a disservice when we claim that class is strictly about money. I can always access my upper class behaviors and expectations at any time I want. That isn’t true of someone who grew up working-class who makes 2 million/year.
Kind regards,
Jay
Jay, I think you have wonderful insights on class.
Reading your response made me think vividly of the scene in the movie “Titanic” where Jack (Leonardo DiCaprio) attends the first-class dinner in a borrowed tux, and Rose narrates that he passed for money, but adds, “New money, to be sure,” probably from the railroads – meaning he had money but his mannerisms and lack of grasping the subtle social cues of the upper class meant he’d clearly come from a lower-class background.
Hi Laura,
Yes, this is exactly what I’m describing. Thank you for helping me to remember this scene from Titanic.
It’s also a great example because it shows what I know to be true from my own experiences, that class is about mannerisms such as word choice, word pronunciation and even voice modulation.
Take care,
Jay
Well, I think those people who ask “why don’t you take it to the mechanic” ARE (for the most part) stupid, selfish boors. There are plenty of uppper class people who wouldn’t say something so foolish.
I’m also wondering and I’m asking in all sincerity without a hint of sarcasm – do you think you’d always be upper class in attitude if you didn’t have your parents’ or grandparents’ money to fall back on in a worst case scenario? And do you think you’d still have the upper class attitude after living without an escape hatch, year after year, crisis after crisis?
I agree money doesn’t account for all of the class distinction, but I do think it is an inseparable part of it.
Thanks for the question, Mom of Five.
If I’m understanding your questions correctly, I think we are in agreement.
Class is inseparable from money, as you suggest in your final comment. I agree with you.
I will always be upper class, in part because I have always had escape hatches, and I believe I always will. Escape hatches exist not only as money from my parents, but their contacts, the knowledge I have about how to best present myself in a room of wealthy people – essentially my people.
That’s part of accessing my class standing that other classes don’t necessarily have access to.
I’ve also said that I will always be upper class because I do not care for people in my class standing who think that by working minimum wage jobs that they can somehow jettison their class background. I don’t wish to imply that they won’t have money problems, but you are absolutely correct that they probably have escape hatches.
Hope this all makes sense. Let me know if it doesn’t.
Kind regards,
Jay
“I will always be upper class, in part because I have always had escape hatches, and I believe I always will. Escape hatches exist not only as money from my parents, but their contacts, the knowledge I have about how to best present myself in a room of wealthy people — essentially my people.”
That’s very interesting, and you’re lucky to have those back-up plans and contacts. (I am not saying this with bitterness or sarcasm; it’s merely an observation.) I can see now why Bill Gates once said that his offspring won’t really inherit much from him – he’s given them a strong start in life with education, having an enviable social network, etc.
This is absolutely true. No matter how poor or unemployed or ill I may get, I always have my family to fall back on. No matter how well I do or how wealthy I may get, it will always be because of the opportunities they afforded me and the values they instilled.
As an American, my education about class came from living in England. In the US, we really like to pretend that class is strictly defined by economics. If you have enough money, you “become” upper class. This is not true – J.D.’s restaurant story is very apt in that just because one can afford to eat wherever you want does not mean that you are attuned to expectations of eating at fancy restaurant that often go beyond being able to afford it.
I think class is very much about culture. One can exercise some choice in the matter (moving into a different economic category, choosing a particular career, socializing with a particular group of people, joining a particular church), but part of one’s class identity is one’s family of origin. My brother and I have very different class identities in no small part because he never went to college, but I have graduate degrees. And, I might add, our salaries are almost identical!
There was a great scene in season 4 of the Wire where Bunny (an ex-cop working with a group of troubled high school students) took 3-4 students out for dinner at a fancy, white-tablecloth type of restaurant. At first the kids were excited to get a really great meal, but they quickly shut-down and became quiet…it was really obvious that they were incredibly uncomfortable in the upscale setting.
This is just a TV show, but I think that it was a realistic portrayal.
Everywhere I’ve gone in the US, I’ve felt the class issue (or maybe it’s more of a race issue, but the lines seem to blur in my opinion). Where I have felt it the least is in San Antonio.
I think the reason I feel it a lot is because my husband and I are from different cultures. So if we go into a Spanish speaking working class community, I blend in, unless I’m standing next to my 6’3″ blond hubby. Everyone just stares and sometimes they make rude comments in Spanish.
If we go to a predominantly non-Spanish speaking homogeneous community, my husband blends in by himself, and I stick out like a sore thumb. We get the same treatment as he does in the Spanish speaking communities.
Now that we have two children, people seem to be more accepting. It wasn’t so when we were two twenty-somethings dating.
One event sticks out in mind that I will never forget. Many years ago we were living in Hawaii (we were a military family). I was feeling really proud of myself because I had almost completed a BS in Mathematics. You could say I felt pretty accomplished. Anyway, one day we went to a mall near Waikiki in Hawaii. I went into a bakery by myself where a nice old lady approached me. We started a nice conversation, when she asked me if I would like to come clean her house. I was shocked at the proposal, because she assumed I cleaned houses because I am Mexican. I told her nicely that I didn’t do that kind of work. She then said that maybe I knew one of my people who could go clean her house. Needless to say, I felt at that point that I was never going to be seen as anyone other than a lower-class citizen. Even with a Math degree.
I just want to end this on a good note. Now we live in Texas and I have two degrees. Most everyone I meet sees me as a professional which is nice. This is a place where I’ve least felt the class distinction, even though it’s there in the background. I always have tried to ignore it and I try not to pass prejudices to my children. We live a happy life. 🙂
Your experience in the bakery reminds me of two incidents in ‘upper class’ stores when I was in the US. I was the only black customer and the security guards (black men both times, if I might add) immediately started following me when I went into the store. I was not sure at first if they were monitoring me and so I took quick turns in the store and sure enough, they were hot on my heels. This annoyed me no end and I just walked out of the store though I wanted to buy some items. I assumed they thought that I would steal something just because I was black. They did not mind the whites in the shop. It is frustrating especially when you know that 1) you don’t steal; and 2) you can afford to buy the items cash. It is more frustrating when one who looks down upon you is one of your own.
Pretty Woman!
Huge mistake.
It is frustrating to be followed around like that! They used to do it here in Poland a lot! Thankfully I think wages have risen so much that they can’t afford to pay 2 or 3 people just to stand around in the aisles watching us. I had the same feelings–1. I don’t steal, and 2. I can afford to pay for what I want–just leave me alone!
My only consolation is that they seemed to do it to just about anyone but I’m sure if you were more dressed up, then they would look less askance at you.
Been there, Ms. Life. The worst was when I was chased down the street by an unmarked “guard” because he thought I put something in my purse though I literally didn’t touch a thing inside the store. Ironically before I left, I saw three white kids robbing the store blind (pocketing loot right before the employees eyes, etc)…
Minerva – Your experience in Hawaii is highly unusual. I can guarantee the woman you spoke with who assumed you cleaned houses was not from Hawaii. First of all, most of us can’t afford house cleaners (we have the highest ratio of COL to avg wages in the U.S.). Second, there are few Mexicans living in Hawaii, so almost all house cleaners are various other ethnicities, predominantly Filipino (because 25% of the population of Hawaii is at least part Filipino). If I ever see a Mexican in Hawaii, I generally assume they’re tourists (unless they have a “Hawaii” accent). Also, most people under 50 are of mixed-ethnicity, so we generally assume NOTHING based on ethnicity.
The only person who can make you feel uncomfortable in social situations is YOU.
I believe that’s true, but I have certainly felt the way you mention. My wife’s work environment frequently puts us in social situations with well-paid physicians, and there are times when I feel a little left out in the small talk in groups when the conversation turns to family vacations in Tuscany or the latest country club gossip.
However when you get a lot of these folks one-on-one, you realize that they’re from standard middle-class backgrounds, but were the smartest kids at school and college and worked their tails off to get to their currents situations. It’s funny though, sometimes their spouses (male or female) are the bigger snobs, even though they just married the money.
Thanks for the insight J.D., I really enjoy the posts that make you think. I’ve been in a few situations where I felt uncomfortable, coming from just above the poverty line to hanging out with multi-millionaires made me act much more reserved. I would watch what I said and how I said it. I would hold back my comments when I heard something that was classist or stereotyping. I was intimidated and wanted to fit in. Now that I’m a bit older I don’t act differently and will call someone know if I disagree with their comments. I think it’s a part of growing up & maturing and being comfortable with who you are.
I agree. For me, I also think raising kids was integral in helping me feel comfortable in my own shoes.
The Class system is very much alive and well in the U.S. I grew up in the “poor”(we were solidly middleclass) side of a wealthy suburb. The more well to do landscaped around their property well enough that they did not have to look at us on a regular basis. The cliques in school were defined by economics almost exclusively.
As an adult I moved into a growing suburb that was once very rural. There is a very interesting mix of economics and social class. There is a very wide range of class here both economically and socially. There is a lot of poverty amongst the upperclass and plenty of levels of middle class in between. Everyone is aware and it still can be isolating. Class is a lot of time about values and social cues, regardless of income. EX: It doesn’t matter how much money you have if you go to the grocery store in your pajamas…people will view you as lower class. If you don’t have as much money but are educated and have a prestigious job you will be of a higher class.
And I don’t think this is going to change any time soon. I think, if anything, we may become a 2 class system…the have and the have nots.
Good article, JD.
I had similar feelings when I spent time in China with a group. We went to Suzhou, Shanghai, Qingdao, and Beijing. In addition to the differences in class that were apparent it exposed us to a new way of thinking. New traditions, thoughts, and customs.
Visiting another part of the world can change the way we think about things. I wish everyone would have the opportunity to visit somewhere outside of the US for the experience.
I like the link to the global rich list. We really do have a lot to be thankful for and I hope more people can see that.
I was aware this is an issue in South America, but only because my husband is latino and spent a lot of time working in South America. My husband has a strong indigenous and African heritage which gives him a darker complexion and non-European features. He said in some countries it was not unlikley that people would be very dismissive of him because they considered him to be of low social status.
Minerva, my husband and I have found it varies from community to community. The town where we live now is somewhat heterogeneous so we don’t stand out as that unusual from our neighbors.
One last thought: Class is as class does. Or maybe “class” does not equal “classy”.
well first, there are a few generalities ther about us retiree travelers dont you think? Everyonce in awhile there are these assumptions that once you retire you fall apart and have no life. Absurd!
As to your restaurant experience, I would simply suggest that its inapprorpate to eat in zipped off pants in a high quailtiy restaurant in the us as well. I guess im saying would you have had the same behavior back home or were you assuming that because you were travling it would be different.
I agree that it can be difficult when you move up that proverbial ladder. this is especially true for people who get traditional business jobs and have no experience with things like the entertainment factor. in other words, the impress the hell out of someone and then go to a business lunch and blow it all. the thing is though, there are ways to “fix that”-things like etiquette books work wonders.
Of course we are all part of where we came from eventually
For me, I consider my upbringing middle to upper middle class. My parents were certainly not rich, but my mom was able to stay home with us and they did try to give us every opportunity. But they were old school in that if we wanted to go to college, we had to figure out how to pay, and at 18 the choices were college, military or get a job and pay rent. I went military and through a combination of poor choices I would call myself lower class these days, though I’m trying to get back into school. My brother went to college and actually just got a law degree last year. I usually tend to feel like he’s the ‘good kid’ and I’m the ‘bad’ one, though my parents have certainly never said such a thing to me.
I am well aware of class differences here in America (Atlanta, GA). However, I use class division to motivate myself and drive my family up the socioeconomic ladder.
I want my family to live and enjoy the benefits of an upper class life, but I do not allow class distinctions to cultivate resentment or disapproval that would belittle the lower classes.
Becoming wealthy and living a high class lifestyle should always be a positive shift.
Up until college, I thought my family wasn’t rich. I didn’t think much about classes, but knew that my parents budgeted; that we only had one car until my mother got a job far away that required a commute; that we had a big mortgage; etc. But in college I dated a guy from a lower-class background, and he surprised me by how much he VALUED having money & a good income. For me, money wasn’t something to be chased; experiences and knowledge were more important. I realized that this was a “rich” mindset– if you think yourself “above money,” it might be because you never had to SERIOUSLY worry about it.
My parents’ families, on both sides, had been well-off and well-educated for many many generations. Though my family wasn’t super rich– especially compared with our ancestors– we were technically in the upper-to-middle middle class, and both my parents had PhDs. It was surprising to me to realize that my family was “culturally” upper class and had taught me some upper class values, especially regarding money.
On the other hand, I grew up in the casual Midwest and never felt socially comfortable in “real” upper class families on the East Coast.
I think that the kind of class that we think about is defined more by culture than income, but income is easier to measure and so becomes a proxy for class when journalists, social scientists or politicians need to talk about it.
I love this observation you’ve made:
“For me, money wasn’t something to be chased; experiences and knowledge were more important. I realized that this was a “rich” mindset— if you think yourself “above money,” it might be because you never had to SERIOUSLY worry about it. “
This is interesting to me, as a person who has always been arts- and liberal arts-oriented. I was oriented that way because my family’s middle-class background gave me the freedom to be. But now that I’m feeling a lot less economically and socially secure — I’m truly afraid of falling out of the middle class permanently — I find myself encouraging my history-loving teenage sons to consider careers in STEM fields. I feel like a classic striving immigrant mom (and I’m NOT bashing immigrants here, just talking about a survival mindset), pushing the kids to be engineers. It seems to come from my sense that our family is no longer “above” money — we may not be able to afford to be social workers and painters anymore. This recession has really had an impact.
Me too. As someone who has worked in non profits for 20 years, I really feel I can no longer ‘afford’ to work for them. I have to start chasing the money rather then work in social justice fields.
JD,
thank you for this great post. I still struggle to identify my spot in the US class system. I grew up in Germany were I really can say, class systems do not exist anymore. My parents were not poor, but also far from being rich. I was the first one in my family to get a college degree, but I never felt that people looked differently at me.
My husband however is Indian and comes from a culture that values classe (or cast) a lot.
We live now in the US and when it comes to income I guess you can “classify” us as upper middle class.
While I am happy with our situation, I am very grateful for what we have accomplished already, I dont feel the pain of not being upper class. My husband however, very much feels this pain. I can see how the differences in upbringing have an impact on how we look at classes and where we want to be.
For me the wish and drive to make it into a higher class defines the existence of a class system. Where I grew up people strive to have a better life, but do not think about it as moving to a different class. Here in the US where to me every other conversation is about money, things seem to be very different.
Thank you,
Andrea
I have always thought of myself as middle class. One day at the gym, a man was griping about his bills and how everything is so expensive. He looked at me and said, ” I don’t know how someone like you makes it”.
I was a little taken aback, do I look poor, do people see me that way?, do I look too stupid to earn a decent wage?. Wow, he really made me think. Then, I doubted myself, I must be poor!!
Little does he know, I am totally debt free, I paid off my house in 8 years, never had a car payment,pay cash for all that I do, and live quite well. I suppose I do look poor because I do without what most people must have.
Likely, I have less than this person that assumes I am poor, but probably have more wealth!! So much for assuming.
However much money that man may have, his rude remark shows that he has no class whatsoever!
Class is in the eye of the beholder.
I don’t think it’s definable by an income level, education level, comfort level in various social settings, taste in clothes or furniture, table manners, etc.
Perhaps it could have more to do with one’s sense of personal responsibility to meaningfully contribute to a community. I think of a lower class person as one who expects the world to provide for them, a middle class person as one who expects to earn what they have, and an upper class person as one who gives (time? money?) to those who have less (opportunity? money?).
J.D., this is such a timely post. I’m reading Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers: The Story of Success” (HIGHLY recommended) – the premise is that the biggest indicator of success is not hard work or talent (although those are definitely part of the mix), but having unearned, often hidden, advantages of circumstance. One of these is coming from a background of privilege, which provides access to opportunities that those of lower classes often don’t get. Another way of thinking of this is called the Matthew Effect – essentially the rich use their extra opportunities to get richer, and the poor who are shut out of advantages get poorer.
I was raised in a weird mix of lower and middle class; economically we straddled the poverty line, but intellectually my mother placed a high value on education, taught us to read before we went to school, and paid a huge chunk of her income on housing to live in the best possible neighborhood because she knew your surroundings influenced your children and what they’d grow up to be. (In our case, that meant a lower-middle class neighborhood instead of the projects I was born into.) I definitely picked up early on that groups of both poor people and middle-class people had unwritten, often unspoken rules of conduct that you were expected to follow.
Right now we feel lower-middle-class, and my son thinks we’re poor because I tell him we can’t afford iPods, iPads, and all the other electronic gadgets he wants (LOL!). But our salary definitely places us in what would be upper-middle-class or upper-class if we just didn’t live in such an expensive area and pay so much for housing.
I find it interesting that anyone from Houston would comment/notice on Portland’s casualness, as Houston is also one of the most casual cities there is. Comes from a long history in oil – the wealthiest guy in the room was often in jeans and boots.
There is truth to that but it presents an incomplete picture of Houston How many of those jeans are pressed, the boots are top shelf alligator, and the outfit is finished with a fancy sport coat? I will grant you that the oppressive heat and humidity naturally precludes itself to overdressing, but those casual clothes surely aren’t from KMart. Appearances are very important and carefully thought out. As a native Houstonian I knew many girls in school whose mothers wouldn’t let them leave the house without make up. It reminds me of the post from the Eastern European commenter about dressing up for the museum and practically every time they left the house. It’s rooted in the culture, but appearances ultimately are about what sort of impression you want to create, which ties back into class.
As to the traveling restaurant issue, I completely understand that dilemma. When traveling you often want to try a great restuarant, but when packing for a multi-week excursion what’s going to get cut from your luggage? The sport coat you might use, or an additional pair of hiking shorts that will see several days of use? I realize that it’s just not possible for me to match the local clientele sartorially b/c of my circumstances so we’ll try and eat early or late if we’re going to a nicer establishment, keep something clean and unwrinkled for the occasion (obvious I know but not always easy), and try and wear at least one item, preferably a shirt or pants, that is non-travel specific, i.e. a button down shirt with Patagonia pants or vice versa. Then we’ll try and be as polite and non-difficult customers as possible and tip well. We’ll often still get stares, but that’s their problem, not mine.
This is one place where women have an advantage – I have a nice wrap dress that packs up as small as a t-shirt, and a pair of flats that pack pretty small. It won’t be impressive at a nice restaurant, but it will pass well enough. Men’s dress clothes are bulkier.
Thanks for bringing up this very interesting subject, which seems to be one of the subjects that we are least comfortable talking about. I have found that, as a teacher, it would make people more uncomfortable to talk about money than almost any other subject.
But of course there is more to class than money, and I think that education and manners (including unspoken assumptions and shared experiences) are just as important. My parents gave me access to education and in academia I have often felt my lack of a shared class consciousness more than my (relative) lack of money. It seems much more easy to earn money and to become more educated that to learn the social codes etc. In France I would say that the three aspects of class are more closely linked than in the U.S.
Tom
I really like the idea of turning the concepts of class on their heads. In fact, I enjoy being that guy in a fancy restaurant looking more casual than everyone else. It makes them wonder if you are MORE rich and MORE comfortable than they.
lol
i’m with you.
throw race in the mix and then you will see a very interesting evening!
John – no, I don’t think you have more money than anyone else. I think you’re a slob who doesn’t know how to respect other people and places, like the kids who wear pajama pants everywhere. Tshirts and shorts are for the gym, polos and dockers are for casual Fridays, jacket and or tie as a minimum for church, suit for wedddings and funerals, black tie for the opera.
Unless of course you’re a callow 20ish tech type who thinks a beer tshirt and cargo shorts is the last word in male apparel.
Hey Roberta – you can make the rules and spend your life worrying about what others think.
I’ll wear what I want, where I want, and be happy.
Deal?
Well Said, John!
I consider myself lower class, though anyone interacting with me probably wouldn’t. Raised in public housing by a single mother who dropped out of high school. Our values were definitely lower class: life is a struggle, will always be a struggle, don’t try. Avoid risk at all costs. She was born in the 40s raised by sharecropper parents and I think life beat her down at an early age. I wouldn’t have said I was lower class growing up but I had some inkling we were poor. Mom was very religious and I noticed none of the other congregants lived in neighborhoods like ours. We drove an old car that had ripped vinyl, windows that fell if you shut the door too hard, and it left a trail of smoke wherever we went. Mom was always worried about the “light” bill, so much so that we didn’t even have a bulb in the refrigerator because she was convinced it used too much electricity. So I have memories of rummaging through a dark fridge, not sure of what I was grabbing until I took it out.
At one point when I was an older child, maybe eight or ten, I was watching tv and an ad for a particular car came on. It was a typical car ad with the car speeding fast through winding roads on some remote hillside. Something clicked and I realized that the car my family rode in was used, that someone had owned it before us. I realized there are people who buy cars new without ripped seats and falling windows and aren’t smoky. I started to realize why we were always receiving clothes and homebaked goods from friends. I have a hard time accepting gifts or favors today because I assume people feel sorry for me.
Why am I lower class now? In large part because I’m now unemployed. I loved my job and my work was a huge part of my identity. When people asked where I worked I was proud to tell them because our business had status in the community. We had our critics, but mostly we were respected. I don’t have a lot of education or money, so my job defined my class for me. I also feel a lot of those lower class values I was raised with coming back. Avoiding risk. Never trying. Aiming low. I hate it and I try to fight it but it’s hard. Sometimes it feels like that a destiny has already been decided for me, and no matter which path I take doesn’t matter because they all end up at the same place anyway. I worry about living in fear my whole life like my mother. Perhaps if I’d been born in a higher class I wouldn’t be discouraged so easily. Now that I think about it, I believe one of the main values that separates us in the lower class from everyone else is that we don’t feel in control of our lives so the choices we make don’t matter much.
This rings so true.
If you can find it, I highly recommend Bridges Out of Poverty by Dr. Ruby Payne. I don’t agree with everything in the book, but it does go through the mindset of people in poverty, in middle-class and upper-class. The perceived helplessness is definitely something that sticks out among people who are poor.
I recommend See Poverty…Be the Difference by Dr. Donna Beegle. Donna’s story is unusual and inspiring. She comes from a family with a history of generational poverty.
Thank you for your suggestions. I will have to try to ILL both of them since neither is at my local library.
I don’t know if I’ve ever been in poverty. I never considered it the same as being poor. To me, poverty is extreme poorness, to put it clumsily. If you’re poor, you had very little to eat today. If you’re in poverty, you haven’t had anything to eat at all. That type of thing.
Something struck me when I read your words: “life is a struggle, will always be a struggle, don’t try. Avoid risk at all costs”. You say these are lower class values, and this attitude is hard to fight.
It definitely is hard to fight! Because I am not sure this has anything to do with human values or attitudes. This may be related to something a lot more ancient and primal than that, a basic biology of mood. There has been a lot of research on both human and animal behaviour that good things and good moods increase risk taking while bad moods decrease it. Even studies on bees show that they are more willing to reach out when they have good living conditions, whereas shaken distraught bees are more risk averse.
The implications of this connection to me, are two-fold. One, it validates the difficulty of fighting this. It’s genuinely hard to shake this feeling off because it is so deeply rooted. But at the same time, it is not an indication of anything about you. It’s something not only all humans share – it’s something we share with animals. Put people with “upper class values” into circumstances that they interpret similarly (interpretation is very important), and they will be similarly affected.
And this self-awareness gives one tools to overcome it, such as learning to do little things to put yourself in a good mood, grounding and anchoring in one’s strengths, etc. As well, we successfully overcome a lot of our natural impulses in everyday life so it is possible. (Not to be taken as an argument that all of them need to be – far from that, it’s a about finding a balance that is most adaptive to a particular situation).
Put people with “upper class values” into circumstances that they interpret similarly (interpretation is very important), and they will be similarly affected.
But I believe that what distinguishes the upper class is that they don’t interpret situations the same as the rest of us. If they did, they wouldn’t be upper class. Even when they lose everything, it is only a short while before they become successful once again. Risk aversion may be human nature, but their upbringing has rewired them to think differently.
I think overcoming risk is much more complicated than just being in a good mood, but I do agree that self-awareness can help. I know that a lot of my risk avoidance is based on irrational fear. I tend to ask myself “what if” a lot. But I am trying to change that into, “why not?”
I also grew up lower class, managed to get into an Ivy League college, and now do quite well and run in a somewhat upper-class circle. I also felt like our friends were working from a rulebook I hadn’t been given, so I went and bought one; Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior. I found it very helpful (and hilarious at times), and now I feel fairly confident that I at least know many of the “rules” in social settings, even if I don’t always choose to follow them.
Also, we live in Portland as well… and as I tell my determinedly casual husband, wearing nice clothes to a restaurant or theater is a sign of respect to the other diners/patrons. Even if you don’t give a damn about what you’re wearing, it’s rude to subject everyone around you to your hairy legs and ratty t-shirt when they’ve gone to a lot of trouble and expense to enjoy a special evening. Or that’s what I tell him, at least. 🙂
If you can’t be bothered to put a little effort into your appearance before dining at a fancy restaurant, do everyone else a favor and get your food to-go.
“The nature of wealth. What does it mean to be rich? Most of us in the U.S. have a lot of money by world standards, yet we often seem poorer when it comes to family and friends. We’ve created a society that isolates us. We’re short on social capital.”
This is sort of thing that makes me unsubscribe to your blog. There is no such thing as “social capital”. I shouldnt have to tell an adult that anything that is imaginary does not exist. Same with class. Also nothing is cheap or expensive, it subjective to what you value. Like when I was in America I thought clothes was super cheap and food to be very expensive.
I disagree. Social capital is very real, and it’s very powerful. Just because you can’t quantify it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
If it doesnt occupy physical space it isnt real. Quantifying things is how we manage physical space. So if we cant quantify it, it very possible it doesnt exist.
Republic of Zen, I doubt you really believe that if something “doesn’t occupy physical space it isn’t real,” as that would mean your ideas themselves do not exist.
So, love isn’t real?
More like Republic of Denial!
If you don’t have any social capital (e.g., cave dwellers, the Unabomber, etc.), it doesn’t mean nobody else has it.
There’s a reason country clubs and such other places exist– to grease the wheels of commerce.
Also, there’s a reason people in certain industries form communities in particular locations –artists and financial experts in New York, film people in Hollywood, businesses that deal with Latin America in Miami, and so forth– beyond obvious geographic advantages, there is a high value of having personal relationships with people who can further your business.
I have a group of friends who work for free in each other’s films– no money is exchanged, but value is created by cooperation. That’s social capital. Knowing somebody well enough that you can make a multimillion dollar deal on a handshake– that’s social capital too.
Okay, to put it in a geekier way since you want to define the real in terms of physics (I’m down with that, just want to expand on a limited definition):
You think that only things that occupy space are real. But “space” — space really is a dimension of matter, isn’t it? Together with time? So we can agree that matter, which occupies space in time, is real, yes? So we have matter in spacetime. Real. Then we have a 2nd type of matter known as energy, if Einstein is correct, yes? Energy exists in spacetime too. So far so good?
Let me advance here the notion that there is a 3rd type of matter, which we’ll call, for greater confusion (ha), “information.” Information is the organization of a system, but it’s more than that a static shape. It’s intangible, but it’s real– it interacts with matter and energy over time.
For example: The information in an atom is what allows it to interact with other atoms in specific ways– change the orbit of a couple of electrons, add a neutron or proton here or there, and you’ll get a different reaction altogether. The information in your cells is what allows you to breathe, move, eat, reproduce, and pass your information (!) along to your descendants.
Biological systems keep themselves alive, exchanging energy and matter with their environment, but also maintaining their organization, which fends off entropy. Without this particular organization (“information”), life would not be possible.
As humans, we have gone beyond metabolic and genetic information and moved our data onto culture, which we use to manipulate matter and energy to a greater degree. Bits and bytes and the contents of the mind are as real as hydrogen and also exist in spacetime.
These are old books at this point, but I’d suggest the classics “What is Life” by Erwin Schrodinger and “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (yes, he’s the one who coined the term “meme” with is now used for lolcats, etc.), if you want to read about these things.
I agree with JD.
Social capital is very real. def: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital
This reminds me of a blog that has provided a wealth of information on social capital. Thomas Sanders, Executive Director of the Saguaro Seminar at Harvard has been kind enough to post his research here: http://socialcapital.wordpress.com
Here is one example of many:
Consider an employee that has an idea for the betterment of his corporation. The employee can go at it alone trying to get the corporation invested in the idea. However if the employee is able to get a Vice President to champion his work, he will have greatly increased his chances of success.
my ideas themselves exist, but what they represent may not exist.
Love is a chemical, thus exists.
Information as data exists physically as bumps on gel, I have no idea how information is stored in organisms, but I will look this up.
Oh my friend it is very real indeed. I found out 2 weeks ago that the contract on a project I was working on was not going to be extended (i.e. it was time to find other work). Very calmly and confidently I made a couple phone calls and had 2 high six figure positions lined up to choose from 3 days later. I am not telling you this to brag — but I assure you that exchange had everything in the world to do with social capital (predicated on hard work, exceptional results and [likely most of all] great relationships).
Another example: today I had a friend / business associate text me saying he needed 3K in short term financing for his business for 10 days. I wired him the money 5 minutes later no questions asked AT ALL. He was utilizing social capital there as well I promise. In all likelihood he received 5-30 of these wire transfers from his network today (could be less or more depending on the transaction he is caring out — I literally don’t know the details). He owns a 7 figure business and is highly connected as well. Before you tell me I am an idiot. I have a simple question for you to chew on. Would you pay 3K knowing that the person you gave it to could in turn either 1.) Hire you for lucrative job or 2.) Make a call and refer you for a lucrative job? I am confident I will get my 3K back (I have done with a couple times for him) — but if I didn’t… It was an investment in social capital 😉 I have found those investments to be the most rewarding. #Truth of the day
I’m not entirely sure this matters — but I should mention I grew up extremely poor (family of 6 way below the poverty level). I had to learn early on that hard work will only get you so far. At some point you really have to master meaningful relationships to get traction.
I slide up and down the class ladder all the time as I go from drinking a beer with my brother-in-law on his back porch in rural South Carolina talking on my “old school” cell phone to shaking hands with upper-class senior executives and deca-millionare clients the next day. I enjoy being around other people who have that humble approach as well.
” I had to learn early on that hard work will only get you so far. At some point you really have to master meaningful relationships to get traction.”
I am learning that lesson the hard way. As a loner and introvert, it takes real work and effort to step outside of my box and make meaningful contacts. It gets even harder with age. Though I am only 33, most people are already well-established with their contacts – and generally the people I hang and converse with are at least 10 years my senior.
Carla, you’re the only one I’ve ever seen in a financial forum that I can relate to. I’m the exact same way…loner, introverted, but a hard worker, who is learning from her successful slacker brother that hard work will get you nowhere without people-schmoozing skills (he graduated with a 2.5 gpa, and is now making close to six figures as a real estate manager, due to his charisma).
It is hard to break out of that loner, introvert pattern, especially when life keeps handing us hard knocks. But, we gotta keep trying,
Carla it is NOT to late! I was very introverted as well growing up. I hate the cultural perception of “networking” — and all the quick-wrist stereo types that come with it. Focus on a general interest in people and their lives — and how you can create value for THEM. Focus on QUALITY over quantity. It is much more valuable (profitable, career advancing or otherwise) to befriend ONE senior level executive in your company then 10 middle managers running around trying to cut each other’s heads off before the next layoff. If you can’t get time with them FIND OUT where they spend time. Go there. Hint: they like to watch their kids play sports.
Nate, this is where I think we run into the issue of class again. The upper class purposely choose activities that limit their accessibility. Playing golf on private courses with exorbitant fees, for example. Maybe Carla doesn’t have kids or like sports. If she shows up at some executive’s kid’s soccer game, how will she explain her presence? I think her motives would be quite transparent, especially if she is not white or male, as executives tend to be.
@BD – Thank you so much for your feedback! I’m always open to new ideas.
@Nate & Vanessa – Nate I love the feedback, and it brings me back to square one: how do I break into an already very established group of people? Vanessa is right, I am a single, childless, woman of color. In terms of activities (especially ones that cost a large amount of money), there is not much I have in common that would make it easy for me to blend in. The one thing I have going for me that I can think of right off the bat that would immediately get others attention (and I hate to say this) is that I am attractive, fit and dress well. I can also converse on any topic that comes up about any subject matter, but I would have to break in first. Unfortunately, looks are almost everything in our culture, and its very fleeting and subjective.
One thing that I have to look out for when I’m a single loner in certain situations is men who are only looking for one thing. When I used to volunteer at high class social events (usually to get my foot in the door), getting hit on my old, married executives, politicians, etc was not unusual no matter how conservative my demeanor was. I’m talking about men slipping me their hotel card key or room number while offering to buy me a drink while no one was looking.
I think its a matter of somehow finding at least one person I could trust, that doesn’t have an ulterior motive that could help me through the door.
Carla, I am also a woman of color and a bit of a loner and felt I could relate to you as well. I’m also a bit geeky and goofy which surprisingly makes it hard to relate to people who share my background. So I don’t really fit in anywhere.
I’m sorry to hear about the creepy old men you have to deal with. How do you turn down their advances? I imagine you have to be very delicate about it, as these men are often in powerful positions and could close a lot of doors to you if they take offense.
Hey Vanessa,
I play the flattered, friendly “thanks, but no thanks role”. I let them down easy so that I wont risk shooting myself in the foot. Word gets around if you’re mean or nice and it could cost me a contact (maybe not him, but a colleague of his). I know woman who play into it and take advantage, especially financially, but they are only hurting themselves.
I guess if you’re a young woman you have to be cautious depending on the industry you want to network in.
So money doesn’t exist?
Because most of what we call “money” has been pulled from thin air – a bank just *claims* that it exist.
Money, as a strict term, exists. Its value is imaginary. Coins have a function other than buying things, you can melt them down for industrial purposes. Now the may most currencies are created out of debt is fraudulent, as the data they manipulate is trying to represent things which are not physically there.
I havea stock pile of silver coins which definitely do exist.
Great post 🙂
It’s funny because I grew up poor but in my head I’ve always been rich lol.
My parents split up and my sister and I were raised by my mom who ended up in a lot of debt due to the divorce/custody battle while my dad is fairly wealthy. So we were poor…sometimes very poor and on welfare, but because we had had money and because my mom was used to having money, I ended up as a bit of a snob! I have experienced a lot of “rich people stuff” like summers in Nantucket and VIP tix at the monte carlo masters that most of the friends from my middle to upper-middle class neighborhood weren’t accustomed to. At least now my bank account is starting to enable my delusions of grandeur.
Going to a restaurant in sweats is tacky no matter what social class you fit into!
Interesting post, J.D.
I grew up middle class, with an English professor as a father and a writer as a mother. However, my father came from an extremely wealthy family and never had to work a day in his life until he was a professor. My mother, on the other hand grew up poor and worked from the time she was old enough.
As an RN married to an emergency services worker, I consider myself to be solidly middle class. But I do think about class, and here’s why:
I live in a large, somewhat formally decorated house in a nice neighborhood. *I* know everything’s from Goodwill and garage sales, but my kids’ friends do not. They assume we’re rich. These kids, many of whom are first generation Americans or low income seem stiff and uncomfortable in our home at first, which always makes me feel bad.
The kids live in apartments or rental houses, so I can see how our house seems opulent.
As a result of this, my kids’ friends prefer to socialize in their own homes instead of ours.
I disagree that class is less apparent here in Oregon than other places in the U.S. Any trip south of S.E. 82nd will support my position.
Thanks for a thought provoking post, and welcome home. It sounds like you had a great trip.
Katy
I hate that, when the kids (or parents) come over and start either apologizing for their own places, or making stuff up about how they have a big house somewhere we just can’t visit… on the other side, our relatives and some work friends are afraid to visit our neighborhood (really, it’s safe! I even ride the bus here, it’s fine!) or assume we’re just about to remodel/refurnish with new stuff.
We both come from mixed-class (working & middle) families, so I don’t know how we ended up in such an awkward middle place – this neighborhood is just like the ones I grew up in, it shouldn’t scare or shock our parents.
Katy, this sounds like an opportunity. Could you find occasional ways to mention, in front of your kids and their friends, where your stuff is coming from? In a natural-seeming way, like “We’ve got those video games we picked up at Goodwill last week, if you guys want to try them out,” or “Here’s a box of nail polishes we’ve been collecting from garage sales — you girls could give each other manicures.”
It might take some doing, but it seems like it could go a ways towards making the friends more comfortable, and could also provide some important context to your own kids, about how to live well on less money.
Believe me, I do! I am always talking about how my furniture are curbside and thrift store finds and how our vacations are free or almost-free. I point out how the movies we watch are from the library, and when it comes times for birthday gifts, I give gift cards to the used video game store. (Look, you can get three for the price of buying one new one!)
I am a one woman frugality publicity machine. Probably to a fault.
Katy
*Rushes off to register “GetMarxistSlowly.org”*
I too live in Portland (transplant from the Bay Area) and in a lot of cases, I am the most “formally” dressed; even when I have to testify in court as as a CASA amid a room full of lawyers.
I’ve always been conscious about my appearance to the outside world. In my case its more about race and less about class or social economic status. Face it, I believe Caucasians can get away with being more casual, even borderline sloppy without getting the “side eye” than someone of color could. Just going by my personal experience and the way I was raised. The only time you’ll ever see me “Portland casual” is when I’m going to the gym in the mornings.
I am not upper or even middle class financially, but no one would ever guess just by looking and conversing with me from the start. I can cover well, even without spending a dime. Its just my personality more than my desire to show a different face to the outside world.
i agree.
“I believe Caucasians can get away with being more casual, even borderline sloppy without getting the “side eye” than someone of color could.”
No question about it! See that picture of JD’s Santiago family dinner above? See that guy in the background with the scruffy hair and tshirt? (sorry if that’s you, JD; I can’t tell!) Now imagine if he were black! What would we or the Chilean family think of him then?
That’s the member of the Chilean family who cooked for us. 🙂
I’ve come to the sad conclusion that no matter where you work or live women need to dress a step ahead of others in order to be respected.
good morning,
hilarious in part-but let me break down how class looks in the pacific northwest. i’m in seattle and definitely a transplant from other environs, so here is it-how to tell the class differences in the oregon, washington state areas.
1. the type of car that they drive. doesn’t matter if they buy it new or used, there are certain types that certain classes buy.
2. where they vacation.
3. what they do on vacation.
4. believe it or not, the grocery stores that they shop at.
5. the places they go out to eat.
6. the neighborhoods that they live in.
wow. looks like the same everywhere else in the world huh?
there is no blending between the people who own and must have a prius to protect the earth and the people who are driving a 87 chevy malibu. one shopping at whole foods for dinner and the other shopping in the in the international district for inexpensive cuts of meat.
but i like the illusion that there is!
I agree with you 100%!
In terms of cars, if you drive a Suburau, you’re one of the cool outdoorsy types, not a couch potato by any means. You’re the ultimate god(dess) if you don’t have a car, but ride a bike everywhere.
Do you shop at Winco vs New Seasons?
Do you frequent the east vs the west side (you’re a snob if you prefer west Portland).
Beer vs wine?
What kind of coffee do you drink?
Food carts vs. sit down restaurants?
Zupans vs. Trader Joes?
In some ways I see these subtle class wars here more than when I was in the Bay Area. The snobbery is so apparent on both sides.
you know the first car that came to mind was a subaru when i was writing that post!
and going to rei for things to walk through the woods in!
and the most telling of all WHAT TYPE OF COFFEE YOU DRINK!
and don’t even begin to get me started on Trader Joes, because some folks who wouldn’t be caught DEAD due to their politics in Whole Foods will hurt old ladies and small children who get in the way of them getting to Trader Joes!
and then follow up by having their organic foods delivered to their homes from a CSA farm ( community sponsored agriculture).
when i moved here from Ann Arbor, yes i know, another stop in the hippie universe, and i love it-anyway when i first moved here from there and went to the food coop in Seattle i actually stared.
it was like a regular grocery store. and the racism was so funny. when i asked for an application for the food coop, they told me they weren’t hiring.
they couldn’t even imagine i was going to join. so it was their turn to stare at me and try to clean up their confusion.lolol
Racism is a whole ‘nother post. Of course it not like parts of the south of Midwest, but its there in a different way. When you’re only 6% of the population, you feel it and constantly reminded of it, even in a liberal city.
You mention education, hard work and luck as factors that helped you to move up. While I wouldn’t say my husband and I are rich we certainly live a more stable life financially than his family.
I have a degree and in addition I feel I’ve financially educated myself, which I think is different. (There are stupid -unwise- people with degrees.)
DH “only” got a certificate in his field. However, an additional factor played in his “success”. In his company they focus on building indigenous leadership. Because he fit into that category he moved into supervisory and management positions early in his “career”. He also will forthrightly speak about the fact that there is an unspoken rule specifically to push men that fit the indigenous requirement higher up in the organization.
I remember my dad saying he was so poor growing up he couldn’t afford the steam off a free lunch. Of course, he was a product of the Great Depression (born 1918). I think he used to like saying that because he really managed to make something of his life. He started by driving a truck and then he bought trucks and hired other people to drive them. He was a high school graduate as was my mother(also the daughter of a truck driver), but that’s as far as they got with their education. They both worked at the family businesses (2 of them) probably about 60+ hours each per week while I was growing up. They both had impeccable manners and were generous to a fault.
Although my family “had money” compared to others in the very small Midwestern town where I grew up, I still feel like I was raised socially as lower class while economically we were probably middle to upper middle class. My family had a housekeeper and a vacation home. I think that wealth, or lack thereof, and social standing do not determine what or who you are in this country as long as you are not on the very far ends of the spectrum.
As an adult I have no idea where I fit in as far as class goes. My husband (the son of a doctor and all the privilege that comes with it) and I own our own business that caters primarily to very wealthy people. We earn a nice living, have no debt and live in a condo right on the beach in South Florida, but part of my job is to scrub toilets as well as other cleaning duties. My husband’s primary work responsibilities have him working with his hands and getting filthy daily. We are college educated and have traveled the world. Neither of us do anything even remotely related to our degrees.
I like to think I can fit in comfortably anywhere on the class spectrum, but I really don’t know where I stand in terms of wealth or social class which seem to be incredibly important to many people in the area where I live.
In about a year’s time my husband and I plan on moving to semi-rural Washington state and I cannot wait to leave behind the gross materialism of where we live now. It seems as if many people here like to look like they have a lot of money even if everything they own is leased and they’re in debt to their eyeballs. Here, looks are everything.
I am from a country where strong caste system shaped and formed the society. If you are a daughter or a son of a doctor, you will most likely be a doctor. Likewise, if you are the child of a farmer, you will likely be a farmer. Classism along with racism is also very strong. I grew up in a tight community where I was not exposed or interacted much with the other ethnic groups. Since I grew up in a bubble, I used to think racism do not exist since I wasn’t exposed to other races until my family and I migrated to the U.S. I remember debating with my U.S. history teacher in high school about racism and how it did not exist in my home country. The truth is, racism and classism exits whether we like to admit it or not in every country. United States happen to be the place where almost everyone dresses and acts the same compare to the other countries which seemingly blurred the class boundaries. Additionally, credit is easily available to its citizens. Consequently, most people cannot tell who the millionaire is and who has the all the luxury items but have debt up to their eye balls. This is the best part of America that I love.
While money does help shape the class, the attitude and manner are the most important determinants that are differentiating the class level. After all, from my own experience it is difficult to bond with a person from a different class background since you have less similar values and life experiences to share. The person perceived themselves as lower class typically have some sort of hatred toward the upper class person.
I think there was a clear divide between classes here in the UK, but it is slowly starting to improve. There is still a definite ‘working class’ attitude and some snobbery from the middle and upper classes.
Interesting. I live in the US and class is something I’ve been thinking about lately, after denying it for years.
I grew up lower-middle/rural poor in the US but my family was very aspirational, always emphasizing education, culture, and behaving, talking, and dressing like the upper-middle class (or trying to). As a teenager I resented this; I thought it was snobbish and out of touch, and I happily went off to live my life as if class didn’t matter.
Years later, I’m middle aged and I can no longer deny that class is real in the US. I also can’t deny that I’m now upper-middle class with my education, job, and life goals. I’ve had 2 marriages fail mainly, I believe, because of class differences. There are huge differences among the classes in their expectations/assumptions about what the roles of men & women should be in marriages, and this is a big problem if you are a woman with upper class expectations of autonomy, career, etc.
Yes there are exceptions, but I now realize that I shouldn’t get romantically involved with a guy from a lower class or with a lower education than my own–it’s just not likely to work out because of the culture clash.
I agree. People from different social background do not value the same things. In your case, your career and education. It is more difficult for a women. I have experienced the similar situation when my ex boyfriend did not understand the value of education and my motives to become successful. I guess that is why he is my ex now.
I completely agree. I was raised in an upper-middle class family where education was considered normal and expected. Both my parents have college degrees. Although my mother’s father was pretty worthless, my maternal ancestors were quite wealthy. My great-great grandfather was a college dean (Virginia Tech). There was never a question that my sister and I would go to college. On the other hand, my husband’s family of origin would be considered lower class. My husband is the only one with more than a high school diploma. His mother’s grammar is horrible, and she took no interest whatsoever in her children’s education. Her daughter, my sister-in-law, got married right out of high school and had her first baby at 19, just like her mother did. My mother-in-law was living with my husband and me while I was studying for the bar exam, and she actually told people that I was studying “on purpose to avoid spending time with [her].” Higher education, especially for women, is apparently something she can’t even comprehend.
Wow, yes, yes, yes. I came to the same decision, too. It surprised me because I was raised in a low-income family, and never would’ve expected it of myself.
But after dating guys from different classes, I’ve realized that it really does make a difference. Like you say, the expected roles, how conscious/educated people are about feminism and things like class or religious differences…. It’s quite stark.
It’s made me realize that I probably belong to the upper class or upper-middle-class.
Then again, I’m a biracial gal raised in a middle-class community, sent by my low-income parents to (very) upper-class schools. So I think I just don’t fit in anywhere. :-/
Racism, classism — of course they are prevalent in LatAm, just like they are here and in many other countries! I’ve lived in Chile and have friends and family there. Class and racism is very complicated topic there, that often is wrapped up in politics as well which then gets into topics like Pinochet and the dictatorship.
I love reading your travel posts and the insights you have when you come back. I just wanted to share a story from my time living in Ukraine. This post is about the definition of wealth.
I was visiting one of my neighbors for dinner and they had an Uncle who lived in the US one summer working for a ranch in the 80’s.
His family started using the definition of wealth you have choosen. “Americans make $30k a year so you are wealthy”. Normally this turned into hours of me trying to explain that while I was in the Ukraine I was living on $300 a month, no more.
This time though the Uncle spoke up and asked his brother “How much does milk cost?” The brother replied the equivalent of 20 cents American for roughly a half gallon. The Uncle then turned to me and asked the same question. At the time milk was $3.00 a half gallon near my home. He then followed this routine for several more minutes with different items. By the end the Uncle laughed and said “So you make the same amount of money, its just the government that sucks”
Translation = I came from a low middle class American family and was sitting in the home of a low middle class Ukranian family. The difference was that it if I called to complain about the pothole covers being stolen from the street my government would replace them. In Ukraine you stuck a long branch into the open hole so people didn’t drive into it.
Then lets look at life inside the US. I currently live in CA, if I took my same income and moved to New Mexico I could buy a large home on acres of land, send my children to a private school, travel where ever I wanted and have a large savings account. I currently live in a two bedroom condo, share a car with my spouse, send my child to public shcool, am working on creating a savings account and can only travel once a year to a “cheap” location.
When you take only gross income and do not account for taxes, cost of living and social safety nets you are not really determining wealth. You are just stating a number. Its like pointing at me and saying “you’re white” and assuming that justifies your theory of “….fill in the blank”
I could write a whole blog post in response to your blog, so summing up my reaction to yours in a single comment will be tough. First of all, my husband grew up very similarly to you – in a trailer, rural community, etc. He never knew he went “without” until he got to college (Duke) and realized just how wealthy many of our peers truly were. I, on the other hand, grew up in a staunchly upper middle class family, in a very upper middle class community. We were all Stepfords in my hometown – we looked the same, we acted the same, we did the same things. I thought I was very wealthy – that is, until I too went to college and saw just how high that “1%” really is.
My husband and I are now middle class (not upper middle, not lower middle, just middle middle). We live in a middle class neighborhood; we drive middle class cars. We do middle class things, like belong to the YMCA. While I am more aware of the divide between the middle class and the lower class (a function, I think, of growing up in the upper middle class), my husband is vastly more aware of the divide between the middle class and the upper class (again, because of his background).
You asked whether a class divide still exists in this country – you betcha. I rarely think about race, or religion, or ethnicity as a dividing factor in the U.S.; however, I frequently note socioeconomic differences. We’ve replaced our prejudices that once focused solely on the color of our skin or our house of worship and replaced them with the number in our bank account. I don’t like it, but it’s the truth.
I grew up in the Southern U.S. and most definitely was aware of “class.” In both senses: socioeconomic class, and cultural class. The two had one common denominator, which was education.
There were upper-class whites and upper-class blacks. They may or may not have inherited money (I’m guessing mostly not) but all had at least a college education, all had good English language skills, and all supported the mainstream churches, symphony, community theatre, etc.
There were also lower-class whites and lower-class blacks. These folks had much more in common with each other than with the “upper-class” regardless of race/color. Their culture tended more to fundamentalist-fringe churches, monster trucks, and the like.
There were no Latinos in the community at that time, and the only Asians I knew were a trio of siblings whose father was posted at the nearby Air Force base.
What I observed from an early age was that those in the upper class had higher expectations for themselves and for others, and high standards of acceptable behavior, speech (less obvious regional accent, better grammar etc), grooming, and the like. So from an early age I associated those traits with both a higher cultural standard and a higher socioeconomic status.
The middle class, which certainly existed, was definitely more fluid and able to interact with relative ease both up and down. In that environment, the middle class was almost entirely white.
Even though we lived in a trailer (a.k.a. manufactured home) I generally considered my family upper class because a) our home and cars were in good repair; b) both my parents were college-educated; and c) coming from the Northern Midwest, none of us had discernible regional accents.
J.D.,
If you want to mix with locals more, I recommend to not travel with organized tours anymore. Get on a REAL bus, not a tour bus.
You have been to South America twice, you can certainly do the next trip ( or the first to a new place) on your own.
Go for it!
🙂
No worries, K. That’s my plan. When I return to South America — which may be a year away — I plan to stay for an extended period (probably in Cusco), just lounging around and writing Get Rich Slowly while living day-to-day life. I can’t swear this is my last tour group, but I’m ready to strike out on my own, I think.
Cusco?? A long term stay in a tourist town surrounded by other Americans and Europeans is only marginally better than a guided tour. Just rent a place in Lima (try San Miguel). And bring some decent clothes (or buy some there).
Hey, to each his own. I’ve never been to Cuzco but my son’s well-travelled Spanish teacher told me that if she could spend an extended period of time in Latin America she would do it in Cuzco. Go for it, JD. (I’m currently loving being a student/expatriate in Montreal, so I can relate.)
I don’t understand the appeal of the tour bus *at all* personally. They remind me of when I went to Santorini. My wife and I rented a house looking out over the Caldera from a very nice couple from Athens. We’d watch cruise ships pull into the bay, and then for the next four hours a big crowd of people would crowd into the village and go through all the little touristy shops and then they’d have to leave again.
We stayed for a week and rented a car and went wine-tasting and went to the beach stayed for the sunset and pretty much got to explore the whole island, not just the most touristy parts of it (I mean, it’s Santorini, it’s touristy all over, but still). The tour bus seems just like the cruise ships.
It really depends on what you want out of your vacation. Sometimes, I want to sit back, hang with the locals and just relax so we rent an apartment and chill. Other times, I want to further my education and what better way than with somebody who absolutely loves and knows the area they are guiding you through?
When my husband and I were in Munich, we rented an apartment because we wanted to hang out, drink A LOT of beer, check out museums and explore on our own time. No need for a tour bus or a guide.
In May, we are going to the Galapagos. That is a place where I definitely want to be on a tour. I want a tour guide to tell me what type of plant that is and the behaviors of the animals. I would never know where the best place to snorkel with penguins and then sunbathe with iguanas without the tour guide. I could “stumble upon” these things by reading some blogs and books, and then island hop on a rented boat, but I have a list of things I want to experience and see so a tour with an experienced tour guide who knows the area is perfect for this type of trip.
Much like everything in life, there is no right or wrong way to do something. It is whatever works for you at that time.
i have travelled to other countries extensively. i encounter racists everywhere.
american who travel to vietnam and insist on the people there speaking english to them.
i have encountered american racist when attending highschool in california. some of them are even violent. in fact you only need to read american history to realize that the usa has a violent history of racism.
Sorry about your bad experiences. I think (hope) most of us do try to be openminded (and certainly not violent).
“What do you do?” runs the risk of touching on class status in this country as well. I HATE it when people ask me that. This is mainly because I have a complicated class status: I grew up materially comfortable and am very well-educated, yet have “come down in the world” so that these days you will typically find me working some service job. Hence, if I am talking to strangers of the professional class, they will initially perceive me as one of them… until the dreaded “What do you do?” And I have to say, um, right now I’m working as a restaurant hostess.
You know, Eve, to those people I tell them I love to cook, sew, write (for myself), very interested in fitness, etc. They usually get the point that I am not defined by my occupation or career (or right now, lack thereof).
In a number of parts of the world, it’s considered extremely rude to ask someone about their occupation. It’s interesting that, in the USA, this question is asked. To me, it smacks of (at best) middle class status of the speaker. Why? Because anyone who has traveled at an upper-class level would know this, and adjust their conversational skills accordingly, even in the US.
Just something I wanted to share!
I like to ask people, “So, what do you *like* to do?” (Often it’s not their job!) That speaks more to hobbies, free time, passions.
Even though I love my job I don’t like talking about it, it’s the kind of thing that can monopolize a conversation and I’d rather learn about other people. So I usually give a high-level answer. Many times people want to drill down, which I find rude. They want to know what company, etc.
I ask “What do you do?” but I never only mean “what is your job?” If you work, go to school, take care of your kids, then tell me that. I just want to know how you spend most of your time. I could ask about your family, but I don’t know them. Why would I care how they are doing? I could say “tell me about yourself” but that sounds too much like an interview.
Yeah, I’m actually very interested in hearing other suggestions for basic ice breaker questions instead of, “What do you do?” I saw the one from Spain early in the comments, but would love to hear more what the typical phrases are in other cultures.
Someone we just met asked my husband, “So what’s your passion?” It kind of threw him for a loop because he was much more prepared to answer “What do you do?” so he could talk about his job. Actually, the “what’s your passion” question got us both thinking about what we’re passionate about, if anything, in our lives.
But as a stay at home mom, I HATE this question. Usually when I answer, “Well, right now I’m taking care of a 3 yr old and a 1 yr old”, that’s usually the end of the conversation. If I had a defined profession with a paycheck, usually people would ask more questions about it, but I find it insulting that actually telling people what I do at the moment, which by the way is truly the hardest thing I’ve ever done, ends the conversation. It’s as if there is nothing more to say.
I do some freelance writing on the side for not very much money, and even that usually motivates people to say more to me after that. I find it disheartening, and it has led me to be more apologetic in tone when I say it, as if this is just a temporary job that I will leave when I find something “better.”
Or I just ignore the question and tell them that I have a Ph.D., something that honestly isn’t even on my radar of experience at the moment, but something that most people find impressive and interesting.
Jane, I sympathize, but I’m not sure what else you expect people to ask. If they’re a parent, they already know what you’re going through. If they’re not a parent, there’s no way you could sum up what you do in the span of a brief conversation. I might ask how old your kids are, if they’re a boy or girl. But beyond that, I wouldn’t know what else to say. Please enlighten me, because I never want someone to feel their life isn’t interesting just because they’re a stay-at-home parent.
“I’m not sure what else you expect people to ask.”
I expect people to ask the same kinds of questions that they would ask anyone who has a job.
But I am aware that my job is not the only type of job that ends the conversation right then and there. I guess this goes back to the discussion of class. I don’t imagine if someone said “I am a cashier at Walmart” that most people would say, “Really? Tell me more!” I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the work that leads people to ask more questions are what we consider professions rather than jobs – the type of work that has more societal cache and respect.
If someone ends the conversation then and there, that implies to me that they think what I do is rather uninteresting and not really that important. My reaction to downplay being a mostly full time mom is largely a learned response and a protection mechanism.
I usually ask why someone chose a particular career. What kind of training did they need, if any? Do they like it? But I highly doubt those are appropriate questions to ask a parent.;)
Edited to add a winky smile, lest I be taken completely seriously.
Jane,
I hear you there– I’ve been the mostly-stay-at-home-mom thing too. Whether or not that’s considered a valid or interesting thing to do depends on the listener. Other parents will often engage, non-parents not so much. I also find myself, like you, having this irrational urge to bring up my various degrees, though they in fact have nothing whatsoever to do with my life right now. As though there were some status I need to claim, if not through professional employment, than at least through education.
And yet paradoxically I hate it when people latch onto that education and act as though it makes me something better than they initially thought I was. “Oh, you went to Vassar?” and suddenly there’s renewed interest (though with a definite tinge of “so what the hell happened?”). And I want to say, “I don’t give a #$#% about Vassar, it was probably a massive waste of my family’s money, and I’d be just as worthy of respect as a human being if I were just a restaurant hostess… right?” I’ve never been a Walmart cashier, but I can certainly attest that retail jobs in general, once mentioned, tend to stop the conversation in its tracks. If you are talking to those of the professional class.
This is why it used to be thought rude by the English to ask questions about what you do etc. Instead you talk about the weather. :0)
“i’m a stay at home mom ” How about, “I am busy raising the next generation.” People get that. Then start talking about some interesting book you are reading, or movie you have seen.
You have 50 years to live after your kids are gone. I appreciate that you are busy raising the generation who will care for the society I have been a part of.
I have a considerate friend who usually asks questions more like, “So, what have you been doing lately?” even when first meeting people, in order not to put them on the spot about their work. If they’d rather talk about an activity they do or some non-career work, their answer is still appropriate to the question. He’s been doing that for years, even pre-recession. I’ve always thought it was very tactful.
That is very tactful. I am going to steal that, hope he doesn’t mind. 🙂
I am very conscious of this right now. I grew up Upper Middle class, While I attended a state Univeristy, my parents were able to pay my whole way. Hubby went back to school in his mid 30’s and is a Project Engineer. Our son is a JR in High school attending a Parochial Prep school where the graduates are going to 4 year colleges and be athletes, lawyers, doctors, etc. My family also expects my kdis to attend a 4 year college. My son is doing well in math and science but loses interest in English, history, etc. So I have been steering him towards a 2 year program in IT (where his current interests lie) so he can dirive right into relevant classes. But I feel I have to explain all this. Just last night we were visiting with my nephews who asked what colleges their cousin was looking at. I felt I had to defend the position…
You have an excellent point about education. I keep reading articles about how American manufacturers are desperate for skilled workers who have the training (from community colleges) to work the computerized manufacturing machinery, yet our society pushes students to attend 4-year universities that may or may not provide a degree that can be used to get a job. A 2-year associates degree and a manufacturing job is considered (much) lower class than a university degree and office work, even though the former may offer much better pay.
I was skimming the comments, and yours caught my eye. My husband and I are small business owners. He runs a machine shop, producing prototypes. It is quite difficult as an employer to find highly skilled employees, and there are no longer the training programs in place to supply the labor needed. This problem will only grow, as the majority of the workforce in this field is nearing retirement. Our employees put in a lot of hours and work hard, but with overtime, our most highly skilled employees bring in six figures per year (and fully employer paid health insurance). Yet, it’s still ‘blue collar’ work that many won’t consider doing.
My significant other has both a technical two year degree and a four year university B.S. and he got the B.S. first. He went back for a technical degree when he couldn’t get into the technical field he wanted to based on the university education. I have a M.S. and those I associate with usually also have upper level degrees (vs am friends with who grade on a number of other factors beyond class). The justification that makes the most sense when I explain this is that he is following his passion. This really makes more sense to Americans and not Asians, who usually value following your passion less and class more.
If your child doesn’t know where his interests lie and is being steered, perhaps it would be good to entertain the idea of a gap year/community college and making the goal to figure these things out plus how to implement it? Education is a time and monetary investment. As others have pointed out, it can also be a class and networking investment. I’ve seen people at different incomes who have significant motivation to achieve their goals and that’s a great asset.
Regarding IT, if you take the time to look at target careers and job listings for those careers, you may see the “4 year B.S.” requirement quite often. If one doesn’t have other factors which overcome the minimum requirement such as very relevant work experience, released products, patents, or open source tooling (basically nerd cachet), then the resume will be dismissed. Don’t base a higher schooling decision solely on the courses offered or what he dislikes studying. Look at the required skill set. The goal is to get as close to his target career path’s avenues of entry and build relevant job skills through internships or independent projects.
I didn’t think about class until I got involved with my fiance whose family is very wealthy. They were poor when they moved here from the US but were very successful during the dot com era and now are wealthy. While this was never a problem for me, it created issues between me and my family because of the opportunities my fiance’s family could offer that my parents couldn’t (we met in college and have been out for 4 years, so we are still pretty involved with our parents in regards to vacation, etc). It has not always been easy to have a “cross-class relationship” as we call it.
What I love about my fiance’s parents though is that they may be retired from their original careers, but they have made second careers out of philanthropy and impact investing (have you ever done a post on that?)
I’ve also gotten involved with a group called Resource Generation, which focuses on connecting young people with wealth who want to work on social justice issues. It’s been an amazing experience, partially because so often people think of wealthy people, especially young people, as lazy, spoiled, bratty etc, but these people are so far from that. They are engaged, passionate and compassionate people that have often felt they need to hide their wealth from those around them because it can have such an impact on perception.
I’m forever negotiating my relationship to class and money and I’m glad I’ve been exposed to it because it is still very present in the US, even if people don’t want to acknowledge it.
I’m disabled, poor and have a college education. I don’t fit in anywhere, but I realize I live in poverty. But, I eat well and have computer access, clothes to wear and a place to live. I’ve made compromises, I live with my family of origin for financial reasons. I’m only poor in the U.S. In many other countries this situation would at least qualify as “middle class”.
I’m very aware of status and class. I can tell what class you are by your shoes. Seriously! That doesn’t mean I know how much you have in the bank or how much in debt you are.
Take a look around. Or should I say on the ground…
I have heard it said that first impressions are made by your shoes and your haircut.
While I was at the Chicago Tribune another reporter said to me, “Oh, I like your shoes! Where did you get them?”
Without thinking I replied, “Kmart.”
She physically recoiled from me. It would have been comical if it hadn’t been so startling.
If I’d said “Kmart” while I was at the Anchorage paper, the other person probably would have said, “Wow, score! I bet you got a good price!”
After that, any time someone said “What a pretty blouse” or something like that and asked where I’d gotten it, I’d reply, “You know, I can’t really remember because I’ve had it for a while.” Didn’t want to cause any more whiplash for my fellow workers by replying, “Value Village” or “Goodwill.”
Here in Seattle I can say “Value Village” or “the St. Vincent de Paul” and invariably the person will say “I shop there, too” or “I’ve never been in the St. Vincent — guess I better stop by.” I’ve never had anyone say “eeewww,” either through word or deed.
I wonder if she would have recoiled if you had said Target, which is essentially the same type of store as Kmart or Walmart but somehow much more acceptable for middle class people. Where you shop for your toilet paper, toiletries and other life essentials is very much embedded in class in this country. I know people who buy clothes at Target who wouldn’t be caught dead wearing something from Kmart, even if all things equal they looked and felt the same.
It’s the same with Aldi vs. Trader Joe’s. Some of the things they have are exactly the same but with different labels and prices to reflect the people buying them and their class.
I’ve noticed a big emphasis on class in my experiences. My father is a lawyer, easily making 6 figures, pushing on 7. I went to a private school, where most of the kids had the great privilege of going to a private school. I think kids are brought up thinking in classes whether hey realize it or not. As we get older, we open our eyes to see what we value. Peoples values radically change based on heir background and “class” per se.
I grew up middle class, but now live below the poverty line and live and work in a poor city. Class is pretty constantly knocking on my door- it’s in the unexpected behaviors of people all around me. It’s “I’m just glad to have a job” instead of “I’m going to be an architect”; it’s “They’ve got a deal, $2.99 for the chicken bucket” instead of “A new vegan restaurant opened up downtown.”
ahem…more to the point class is (or was) fractal. The closer you look the more class divisions emerge.
The men of my mother’s family were all stevedores in the Port of London before containers. God help you if you called them a docker. Dockers to them were unskilled labourers who unloaded ships – fit and thick. They were stevedores – the skilled men who loaded ships – a different class entirely 😉
Even in my dad’s day they was a clear division between skilled tradesmen and unskilled machine operators.
Class is a daily part of my life – I’m the protocol officer for my company, based in London, and regularly have to grapple with royals and nobles both minor and major. I grew up in Canada, upper class but not monied (class is an attitude, not a bank balance. . .my mother’s family were old and therefore posh) so I had, in the words of my boss ‘the correct foundations’. There followed six months of brutal bootcamp in which we analysed every aspect of my behaviour – from how I stand to how I speak, my haircut, my clothes, my jewellery, how I cross my legs, make small talk. . .even how I fidget! – and laboriously stripped out anything less than impeccably upper class to replaced it with the appropriate habits. Five years later, I have to admit that there are clear differences between the classes (at least in the UK), and it’s made me much more conscious of class distinctions elsewhere (and yes, they are still there in the US and Canada!). Two books have been my dog-eared guides and saviours: Debrett’s, to uncover the correct behaviour; and Kate Fox’s masterful ‘Watching the English’ to understand why!
I’d like to read a guest post from you – this sounds fascinating.
I’ve read both of those books and LOVE them!
I grew up upper-middle class (US), and married into upper class (British).
The concept of class being an attitude is, to my mind, the dividing line between between middle class and upper-middle/upper.
I notice class very much, but I think that’s mainly because I’m British and just find the whole notion rather fascinating. The thing about the upper class in the UK is they’re actually pretty poor. Well not poor. They’re land rich, but if you look at their lifestyle they’re driving a 1970s Land Rover and swanning round their draughty farm houses in moth eaten cashmere. That’s the old, old money. They don’t flaunt wealth. Toby Young, son of a lord and writer of How To Lose Friends and Alienate People talks of nobility as a family heirloom that you keep in your house, occasionally dust, but never flaunt at people, and I think that’s very true.
I’m middle class and happy about that. My mum comes from working class Manchester roots- she was the only one of 4 siblings to go to university. My dad is from lower middle class roots, although his family lived in a trailer at one point before they climbed the social ladder. I had a typical middle class upbringing- ballet and swimming lessons, cello tuition, grammar school, and a path to university. This was all available to me because my parents chose to be middle class- my mum chose to go to university and marry above herself, and my dad chose to take a well paid job in a completely new part of the country.
I have to say, having a middle class Home Counties accent opens a lot of doors and gives people a generally good impression of you. It’s been very advantageous all over the world.
It’s been very strange for me moving to the city for university and adopting a much more working class lifestyle. No organic this, or fresh that. Frozen foods. Having to carry lots of things on the bus because I’ve got a bus pass and can’t afford the tube fare. I kinda like it now, but sometimes I get upset and just want to throw a tantrum. Last week there were holes in my only pair of shoes and I had a choice between buying new shoes or buying food I wanted to eat. This week I’m living off rice 🙁
The comment about the British upper class is SO true!
My MIL (British) has a title, lives in a gorgeous estate with tons of land, and has a very nice income from her land. She is, hands down, the CHEAPEST woman I know. She has jewelry worth more than 99% of American houses, and washes out plastic baggies for re-use, among other frugal habits.
This entry reminded me of this book: http://amzn.to/z3GVGC
And to answer your last question, there is a lot of overlap between class and wealth, but one does not get you the other.
The class system pervades everything in the United States. If you don’t believe it, you aren’t really looking.
I grew up in a weird social location. I was both extremely poor (like where is the next meal coming from and will we be evicted) to comfortably middle class. My parents both advocated middle/upper class aspirations, but chastised me when I was “acting like a snob.”
Going to college was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to negotiate. Not because of the actual academics, but I just didn’t know how to “do college” (especially graduate school). My family pushed me to pursue education, but had no idea of how you actually do it. People who are of upper classes don’t always realize how much cultural knowledge you need to navigate opportunities to get ahead.
Class is about so much more than money. Often times the keys to the kingdom are the right kinds of cultural knowledge, connections, and opportunities.
I have noticed that many lower class who graduate from college will still end up in lower class sort of jobs. I think that the mind shift and culture needed for high income jobs is not obtained with the education.
Glad you had a nice trip!
I heard something similar about Mexico too. The Northern area looks down on the more native Southern area. It’s like that all over the world. The wealthy class always like to be surround by other wealthy people.
I like Portland, most people are down to earth. I’m sure even many wealthy people wears jeans and gortex and hit the bars.
There are even wider difference between new and old money. I went to school with very rich people from South and Latin America. There are so many differences not just class.
JD- I grew up in Portland and work in the social services here now. If you don’t feel class differences, it’s because you are now of a “high enough” class to be so privileged (as am I. I don’t mean to point a finger, merely to raise a point). We don’t admire upper class behavior here, but we sure do look down on the lower class- when we’re not gentrifying their neighborhoods, forcing entire communities out to Hillsboro and Gresham.
I enjoy GRS, and am glad you have touched on the important interplay of class and wealth. I welcome more informed posts here on the subject.
My wife spent 6 months studying in Chile while she was in college, and noticed many of the class differences J.D. pointed out. Her host family had a successful tourist store which afforded them a nice standard of living. They looked down on others who did not have as good of a situation. They also looked back fondly on the rule of Pinochet, who was friend to the upper class.
Long time reader, first time poster. You really should check out the book Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. He goes indepth into some of the most successful people in the US and shows how it’s not all self made men.
Seriously, I think you should move to New Mexico.
Maybe because I was raised in Portland, I have to agree most people here are just casual, with everything: from clothing to finances. However, my extended family comes from the East Coast and I definitely feel a sense of class groups there. It always strikes me as very strange.
I recently read a report that said a certain percentage of people here in Poland lived in poverty. There was a study done by a group in Europe called Eurostat.
Apparently there were 9 factors that help determine if a person was poor. If you met a certain number of these 9 factors, then you were classified as poor. Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate the study in English, but a couple of the factors were 1. if your family can’t afford to take at least one week of vacation a year. 2. if you can’t afford to eat meat every other day 3. if you can’t afford a car, etc., 4. can’t afford to keep your home warm.
These were at least some of the values and consideration of material deprivation by this group.
I’ve read more than one article on this topic, but at least one of them is here. http://www.krakowpost.com/article/1827
I grew up in rural Georgia. My parents worked blue collar factory or service jobs making little more than minimum wage until I was around 12 years old, and then divorced and my mother had to raise my sister and I on one income. Needless to say we had a lower class life, and the trailer JD grew up in above looks much nicer than most of the places I lived in growing up. Luckily, I was born with the gift of being much more intelligent than most other people I knew and it helped me do well in school. I graduated as valedictorian of the public high school I attended while at the same time starting college (at a public university) a year early on full scholarship. After graduating with a finance degree, I was lucky enough to land a great job where my salary almost quadrupled over the 8 years I worked there. I attended law school at night (also at a public university) while working full time and after law school landed a job at one of the largest law firms in the southeastern United States where I have now worked for several years. Most of my colleagues came from wealthy backgrounds and attended Ivy League undergraduate and law schools like Harvard or Yale.
Having moved up from very near the bottom of the class scale to a place which is very comfortably upper middle class if not lower upper class I constantly find myself in situations where I don’t fit in because I didn’t have the background in culture and etiquette that others around me had.
Shane, congratulations on overcoming the undertow. Fortunately, “cultural” class is easily acquired. 🙂 Start spending a little of your money at museums, the symphony, the opera – go to openings, etc, where there are opportunities to meet people – and then read up on the history of the art you’ve taken in.
Watch different sports, too … I couldn’t care less about most sports, but knowing *just enough* about enough of them to participate in conversation really helps get around that outsider feeling.
And you might consider joining a service organization like Rotary International. It sounds as though you’ve spent most of your life working very hard, which has probably kept you out of a lot of social circles. This is NOT a unique problem … I’d venture to guess for people in your situation, it’s common.
Good luck and again, well done.
And thank you for not copping an attitude about your accomplishments, and for acknowledging the bittersweet nature of your having “arrived.” May you continue to have success. Perhaps you’ll have an opportunity to help someone else along.
Awesome picture at the Torres! In 2001, my wife (then girlfriend) studied in Buenos Aires in grad school so we went down to Patagonia when I visited. We saw the Torres and hiked the “W” from the Torres del Paine all the way to Lago Grey. Amazing trip and I only wish I had a better camera at the time.
I think there are also class distinctions based upon education level, which can coincide with wealth class distinctions, but not always.
Finally, we live in the Bay Area and while not as casual as Portland, people dress pretty casually here as well. I say wear whatever you want as long as you don’t mind and the restaurant doesn’t mind.
Very interesting post!
I grew up poor, but didn’t know it. Everyone in my tiny town was poor, so everyone dressed in the same WalMart and K-Mart clothes, lived in equally crappy houses, and drove equally rusted-out cars.
When I left that tiny town to go to college in New York City, the issue of different classes became clearer to me. Most of my college budddies were middle class, and one was upper-middle class. (She was a debutante.)
After graduation, I had these grandiose fantasies about going to fancy parties in Manhanttan, but that never happened. You don’t go to fancy parties if you don’t hang out with rich people. And really rich people in New York don’t really hang out with poor people in New York, unless it’s to tell them what time to pick up the kids and where to park the car.
Any conversation about class in which one person says, “I was wearing zip-off pants,” tell you all you need to know about about where that person ranks in the (real or perceived) class system.
Great post – and about a subject that I think people (understandably) avoid, but one where honest conversations would be beneficial to everyone.
I’ve thought about it a lot recently. I came from an upperclass family, but never really noticed it. Who really does when they’re a kid? My dad was a doctor, my mom stayed home, and we lived within our means. But we NEVER had to worry about the basics, or even the not-so-basics. We went camping instead of to Hawaii, but all the kids were able to take whatever lessons or classes we wanted to. We went to public school, but there was never a concern that my parents wouldn’t be able to pay for whatever college we got into. We were comfortable and it never occurred to any of us kids that it wasn’t like this for everyone. I went into a field that was fulfilling but not necessarily as well-paid as it would have been if I went into medicine. (Do what you love and the money will follow? Not always…) I make enough, and we’re okay. But both my husband and I have to work to make sure we stay that way.
My husband came from a very different background. His mom was on welfare at one point, he wasn’t able to finish college because at 18 he was completely on his own and while he was smart enough to get into college, no one ever showed him how to get the aid he needed to pay for it. He’s worked hard, and has done well for himself – better than he might have thought when he was younger. But without access to a lot of the opportunities many of us took for granted when we were a kid, he’s had to work a lot harder to get to where he is now than he otherwise would have had to.
We’re now expecting our first child, and it’s been an interesting series of conversations as I realize that despite both of us working, I’m not going to be able to provide my kid with the things I had growing up. Although it never bothered me before, When I think about it, I feel a little guilty that I didn’t go into a career that would have made more money so that my child can have the same advantages I had. I wish one of us could afford to stay home. I wish I didn’t have to pay attention to what we make to make sure that we stay okay. (It probably also doesn’t help that most of the people I work with married people who do VERY well. I don’t envy them their success, but it can be difficult to hear about it without feeling a little sorry for myself because the things they take for granted are things that are beyond our reach. I refuse to go into debt to keep up with the Jones’!)
My husband, on the other hand, is thrilled he’s going to be able to provide a better life for his son than he had. That even though we might not be able to afford music lessons, summer camp, AND karate lessons, we can at least do one out of three – which is more than he ever had. I have to remind myself that we’re still going to be able to offer our son enough, even if it’s not everything I WANT to be able to give him.
I think class is something you don’t notice as much or don’t mind when you’re always moving up. Or if everyone around you is at about the same level. But when you’re the one heading down, or surrounded by people who are just a little “above”, it’s hard not to notice it.
The bottom question is that some people have money to let them do, more or less, what they want. Class ways of eating, or dressing, can all be learned. The single issue, is, do you possess enough money to guide your own life with out having to bend to some employers’ will? Every thing else is negotiable and can be learned.
I think we should all be careful if we find ourselves claiming it is “hard to tell” whether there are class differences. This probably just means you are privileged enough not to notice the differences and that you belong to the dominant group – no matter what group you may have been born into. If you look, the differences are there.
I would also point out that it seems Portland is 75% white (compared to 64% of the U.S. as a whole) and has 13% of people living in poverty (compared to 15% of the U.S. as a whole). So Portland is not as diverse as the U.S. in general, and has fewer people who are poor, which may contribute to it being hard to “tell” who is who. (All this from Wikipedia).
I grew up in a distinctly blue-collar neighborhood, but with a well-paid single working mom who had more disposable income than most so we went skiing and travelled while I was growing up. I always felt like we were pretty well-off and that sense of having more than enough has generally stayed with me. I’ve also had very little to prove — my clothing and car labels were unimportant growing up and I was probably one of the few in my graduating class who had firm plans to go to college. My husband, on the other side of town, grew up in a very wealthy neighborhood where his family was always struggling to keep up and I see in him and his sisters a greater (not in a good way) appreciation for all-things-expensive. I’ve tried to raise the girls to look for quality not quantity, but to recognize that quality can come from anywhere. I think much of our perception of class has to do with how we lived compared to others.
I thought I grew up poor. I didn’t. I thought I didn’t have as much as others. I did. Like you, I came to many realizations about class and what I did and didn’t have when I traveled my Senior year in college.
Some of use start the race of 100m race of life 50m up the track. Others start the race 25m behind the starting line. Poor is a mindset you can work yourself out of but you can’t take the poor out of a successful person. It stays with you. It doesn’t have to hinder you but it stays with you.
Interesting post with some interesting insights.
Fascinating how class differnces come into play in different cultures, in this case different countries within South America. Unfortunate to see such comments like the guy noted about northern vs southern S.A.
Personally, I am starting to be able to detect class differences in the sense of noticing people who clearly have money but are trying to appear modest. Whether it’s trying to fly under the radar (most likely), or a genuine lack of interest in money (less likely), there seem to be more of these such people these days.
That being said, I am generally more aware of class differences these days than I was when younger.
Uh, not about class, but Patagonia! My husband and I went a few years ago and stood in the exact place you did. We love Patagonia. It was such a wild windswept place. We have traveled a lot and this is one of the most magical places we’ve been.
I grew up aware of class. My mom is Russian, growing up my grandfather was very wealthy until the Russian revolution in 1917 and he and his parents lost their wealth.
During these turbulent times he met my grandmother who came from a working class backgrounds. Anyway my mom grew up poor, she went to university and met my father who is from Costa Rica.
Anyway they moved to Costa Rica and my mom struggled so much. She did whatever she could to survive, it turns out my dad’s true colors were revealed, he was a dead beat and he had an affair. Their marriage quickly fell apart.
My mom felt bad about being a professor in Russia and having to go take any low wage job just to survive because she had to start over in Costa Rica. She became a hairstylist and later met an American, so we moved to the U.S.
Unfortunately he was one of those American men that marries foreign women and takes advantage of them. He was verbally and psychologically abusive. She got divorced again and became a hairstylist once again. She worked for a salon for awhile and then she she opened up her own salon and within five years of opening it was making close to a six figure income. She said this was only possible because there were opportunities in the U.S.
Anyway my mom is now in her late fifties and got re-married for the 3rd time to another American, this time she chose a great guy. I’m finally happy that my mom was able to find a great guy. He even calls me his daughter.
Anyway throughout her life she definitely climbed up and down several socioeconomic statuses. Not only that but its funny how my great-grandparents and grandparents went from wealthy to poor, and how their child went from professional to working class to upper middle class just by moving to different countries and making certain choices.
I’m just glad that my mom found happiness, growing up I was very aware of social status. When I was a child I used to be intimidated by wealthy people, but then I started reading etiquette books and then I started feeling less intimidated when my mom became upper middle class and our lifestyle changed.
I also realized when you and your family are moving up and down several socioeconomic statuses that its really mostly in the mind. People will have their own opinions about you but its up to you to feel confident in yourself and your own abilities. If you come from a mentality of defeat then you’ll never get anywhere.
If you are healthy then you can achieve pretty much whatever you want in life. If you want to be wealthy and financially secure then you can attain it. Unfortunately some people feel that they don’t “deserve it” or they’re not “good enough” and my mom had plenty of excuses to give up but she didn’t.
Moving countries twice was very scary for her. The scariest was probably living in Costa Rica, because she said she almost wanted to give up, Latin American countries are very very poor and people are more aware of class there than in the U.S. I know American Tours like to paint Costa Rica as this great tropical place, but there is also a poor Costa Rica that most tourists don’t see.
Being poor in the U.S. is different than being poor in a Latin American country or in Russia even. In a high quality country like the U.S. a poor person from another country feels like a rich person. Anyway my mom is an open book about money, status, and whatever else she wants to talk about with me. Talking about money was no big deal, she was always a saver and never had any debt.
She taught me how to balance a checkbook, and she always told me I could be anything that I wanted to be. I believed her which is why I’m in college getting my degree. I have great plans for my life. Even in these horrible economic times, I still believe in the American dream. Its because of everything that my mom and I went through together.
EDIT: Just wanted to add, a lot of times it is about attitude. I’m a happy go lucky person naturally even though I’m making 12k and trying to go to college right now. People ask me a lot “Why are you so happy?” and I say just because.
Really just because I’m making $12k doesn’t mean I’m going to do that forever. Besides why should I be sad? I have my family, my health, a great boyfriend. Sometimes poor people get stuck in this metal rut instead of looking at the positive.
I think choosing to be happy has a lot to do with how I was raised and what my mom taught me. She always said never let anyone bring you down and to always keep going.
“As I always do in these discussions, I’ll point out that if you’re reading this from the U.S., it’s very likely that while you may be part of the 99% here, on a worldwide scale you’re probably one of the 1%.”
This is true of many developed nations and, personally, it’s an important point to make and think about. However, just your salary in the US would put in the top 1% in another country doesn’t make it any easier to live here. Here is where we live unless you plan to move overseas and try to leverage geographic arbitrage. Here is where we have bills we worry about not being able to pay (or can’t pay). Here is where our kids go crappy public schools, or good ones. Here is where we live in bad sections of town – where we worry about gangs, teen pregnancies, rape, robbery, murder, drug addiction, school drop outs, abusive spouses, jail time, etc. Here. Telling someone making $9/hr in NYC that they’d live well overseas doesn’t improve their situation here in the US.
I’m very thankful that I was born into a middle class family that loves me, in a town where I grew up feeling safe and protected, with decent schools. I do not feel guilty for winning a geographic lottery versus the millions in the world who “lost” it – though to say that is VERY patronizing. Just as your guide Matu’a appreciated his home much more than the “opportunity” to study in the city, many poor people in the world would appreciate more money or opportunities but would not necessarily want our lives in the US.
Very interesting post JD. The media here in the US almost never mentions class.
Some good books on the subject…
http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331011554&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Redneck-Manifesto-Hillbillies-Americas-Scapegoats/dp/0684838648/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331011655&sr=1-1
Also, there was a British drama from the 70’s called Poldark that was primarily about classism. (You can netflix it.)
I grew up and still remain upper middle class, though most people would probably call us “rich”. Perhaps we do fall into the wealthy category, but it is our habits and outlook that are upper middle class. My husband was raised blue collar/middle class. We are both college educated, but my husband has his MD.
I do not think about class, and I suppose I always instinctively know the proper thing to do or say. My husband is less intuitive, but I don’t let his occasional minor gaffes bug me.
Going back to your example, if I found myself in a foreign restaurant, wearing casual travel-type clothes, I do not think it would bother me. I certainly would not rush through my meal over it. Now I might phone ahead to ascertain typical dress code for the restaurant, but once there I would enjoy the meal.
Really?
I was raised upper middle. If I had walked into that restaurant and it was obvious I was underdressed, I would have walked out. Dining, for much of the world, is an experience not a meal.
Sorry, JD, this is where the term ugly American comes from- not caring about the feelings of your host.
I am a woman in my late 20s — and I feel like I might have some interesting insights on the class issue. I grew up upper-middle-class in a wealthy NJ suburb of NYC. Though my comments will seem like generalizations, I can comment on my family and families like mine. (In my case east coast and mid-west “old money.”)
An emphasis on experiences rather than things. I had one pair of jeans but took horseback-riding lessons, tennis lessons, went to summer camp, and played an instrument.
An emphasis on good health, athletics, and appearance. We were expected to play (and excel at) high school sports. A bonus if you can continue to play sports in college. Being overweight is not really an option. As a female, my mother was vigilant that I was healthy and relatively attractive (braces, dermatologist, contacts). Clothes were to be conservative and appropriate — though we didn’t own many of them.
An emphasis on good manners, especially to the elderly, women, and service people (i.e. waiters and waitresses). You stand when a lady comes to the table, leave huge tips, and write thank-you notes for every possible occasion you can think of.
An emphasis on education. We never went on vacation but all four of us children went to 4-year private universities which my parents paid for. Our house was filled with books, not “toys.” Good grades were expected, never rewarded. Higher education is a given, with professional degrees expected for most of the men. This sounds sexist, but most women will marry and have children.
An emphasis on saving and hard work. We were all expected to hold jobs from age 14 on. Once we got our first paychecks, we were marched down to the local bank to open a savings account. We were told to save HALF of our earnings. This wasn’t enforced in any way, but we all obeyed. Our father talked to us about savings and debt. We were never to purchase anything on credit.
An emphasis on a nice house rather than nice cars.
An emphasis on social situations. Though I wouldn’t consider my parents particularly religious, we all went to church every week. We belonged to a country club and we all joined sororities and fraternities. Yes, some of the stereotypes about these institutions are true, but they are deep wells of social capital. These people will help you find a job, write you letters of recommendation, and create the million little connections that lead to an easier lifestyle.
An emphasis on kindness and etiquette rather than happiness. My parents never wanted us to be happy, but gave us the tools that would help us achieve happiness on our own.
Most of these families had fathers that worked long hours. Most of these families had homemaker mothers whose full-time jobs were developing social capital for their children. Most of these families stay married through various bouts of unhappiness, this is “best for the children.” Children have a stable nuclear family to use as a touchstone during difficult transition periods (i.e. I lived at home rent-free for a year after college while saving money for an apartment). I never worry about my parents’ retirement or future health crises, I know that they have provided for themselves.
I make these observations in the spirit of social anthropology — I hope I don’t come across like an entitled brat. After writing all of this out, I feel incredibly fortunate. Though I felt like my family was stuffy and old-fashioned growing up (though we all loved each other) I now realize that all of these things gave me advantages. An education with no debt, an ability to chit chat with anyone, etc. Clearly this lifestyle is not for everyone. Some people run away kicking and screaming. Most of us have started to unconsciously recreate what our parents gave us. None of these things guarantee happiness, but they make your life easier. You have a safety net, financially and emotionally. This enables you to take risks and pursue interests.
I don’t get it. If you can have a wonderful time with your ex for this long PLEASE try to work this marriage out. Your divorce sounds stupider and stupider the more you talk about all the fun times you have with her.
Class distinctions are very much alive! I grew blue collar & Catholic, in a lower middle class neighborhood, with a hardworking skilled labor dad and stay at home mom. My mom was very smart and well read but didn’t have a college education. We were taught from Day One the value of education and books, raised with good manners and kindness. We had everything we needed and some extras but nothing fancy. Some of my brothers and I were in the gifted programs at our schools and I was always in classes with the wealthy and country club set and none of those kids were actually my friends outside of school–wrong neighborhood. All five of us kids went to college and all are solid middle class–we are a writer, nuclear engineer, PR Manager for a fortune 100 corporation, nurse, and computer systems engineer for an aviation company. My siblings married people with similar backgrounds–the kids of hard working blue collar dads & the first to go to college. My husband’s dad was the first to go to college in his family and was middle class but definitely not upper.
We live in a middle class, white collar neighborhood of pleasant, comfortable and well kept houses but not high-end in an affluent suburb–and believe it or not, we’re the undesirable neighborhood here in the midst of multimillion dollar homes. The Have-a-Lots have their own cliques and social circles that I can see my kids are excluded from (they are in elementary school). People seem to have an urge to label and divide no matter what.
J.D., you asked a question that is very tough to answer. Like the first respondent, I am Dutch too. And like her my parents moved up. So my perspective is mostly Dutch.
The first problem is how you would define a social class. It seems to me that in the western world there is now a very big middle class, which comprises about 90% of the population, or even more.
Moving into the middle class is easy, moving out of it is hard. There probably are subclasses within this middle class. And I am not sure of how easy it is to mve between those classes.
In Holland you can tell what class people are in, but only if it really stands out. Thus I can see is someone belongs to the upper class, middle class or lower class. But within the middle class, that is hard.
What you will see is that there is a lot of distinction in the upper class. The top 1% are different from the rest of the top 5%. Especially with the “blue bloods” looking down on everyone else including non blue blood old money, who in turn look down upon new money.
And then there is always a small group that does not care what group they are in (my family among others). But they might surprise with the group they actually fall into.
Portland has a DIY vibe to it. But I’d also point out the West Coast uniform from REI isn’t exactly inexpensive, especially by global standards.
Not inexpensive, but practical. As a long-time REI member, I never shopped there more than when I moved up the Portland from the SF Bay – even for socks and underwear. Between the constant rain, sometimes sweaty summers and the outdoor activities that’s so tempting (even going on urban hikes), you will feel like crap walking around in soggy, wet cotton clothes and shoes all the time.
“If you’re reading this from the U.S., it’s very likely that while you may be part of the 99% here, on a worldwide scale you’re probably one of the 1%.”
I like this statement. Oh well yeah, I am an African from South Africa. Even though I too moved from lower class to more than just comfort (even in the standards of the first world), I did that through good education and lots of sacrifice combined with luck.
And let me mention that, I also managed to help my parents and siblings out of that poverty state. My very humble husband is not comfortable with telling people where we live because he is very uncomfortable with class distinction.
Great article! Many people do not realize the social class differences in the US because they are less obvious and we seem to interact with people in the similar social classes but they are there!
This has been a pretty fascinating read – especially the comments. I have been stewing over my reply for a little while. I know class exists in the US. By strict income measurement – my husband and I, and both sets of parents are upper class. Yet in life, we lead a comfortable middle class lifestyle. We have modest homes, relatively inexpensive cars (yea, I drive a Sequoia, but it’s an SR5 not a Limited or a Land Rover or a Lexus – like my coworkers).
*However*
I have a college education and have travelled overseas, it gives you a more worldy perspective. He has a two year degree and limited experience outside the US. I also grew up on the East Coast and my mother made sure we visited the MET and other cultural places, in contrast, my husband grew up hunting and travelling the US in road trips. I think that people who don’t know us would place me in the upper class and him in the middle to lower. Which I think is unfortunate – because I have learned so much more from him that has inriched my life – I think he feels the same about me. I do think that often our class destinctions run more along the lines of interests (Nascar versus the ballet) and connections. But I have found valuable social capitol at all ends of the income spectrum. It does you no good to get that high paying job when you can’t find a mechanic/plumber/electrician you can trust.
Regarding class I would say just this one thing: As a man or woman thinks, so shall they be.
I dislike the idea of recognizing class or paying attention to it.
I might make more money than someone with a fancier wardrobe and fancier car. I am the type of person that likes to do things myself, even if I’m saving a lot of money or making a lot of money. This may be because of my background where my parents divorced and both went bankrupt. My dad recovered fine and my mom was barely able to feed us and pay for heat.
I was exposed to both worlds and I feel the worst kind of financial sin is living beyond your means. I enjoy living well within mine and not pretending to be of any specific class.
Do not fall into the ‘Family’ trap in how that equates riches. In a lot of countries, people ask about your family because they can get an idea about your financial wealth and class from it. They are finding out the same information, or at least information to form a guess about your class, but from a different source.
As far as class in my life or america in general, I think we have a LARGE band of middle class people and what middle class is depends on where you live (Country or City, North and South, etc). Most people like to say they are middle class, but it isn’t as narrow as that. You’d have to find out that person’s definition or an academic definition to proper place yourself.
I think that in america, you can move up in class with hard work, education and luck, but can easily and quickly move down with a few bad money moves. We desire to limit the downward spiral any way we can.
In other countries, you are born in one spot and that is pretty much it. Education and marriage can help, but it still won’t be same as america.
Being born in the Philippines, but growing up in the US it’s been about chasing the American Dream–continuously (re)inventing yourself without boundaries. This is my biggest love in being American (yup I said it), there are no rules or limits. Only you set them for yourself, so don’t.
I started and sold a Dot.com in my early 20s and have never looked back. Myself and my wife are the Joneses and we set our own rules. Just because it’s marketed by our culture doesn’t mean that we aspire to live someone elses’ dream.
This was a provocative article that reminds me that your attitude is everything (you onlu feel out of place because you chose to feel out of place) and we each have the power to live the life that we want if we chose to live freely and not on others’ terms.