Over the weekend I posted a flippant note about saving money on milk. I hoped to spur conversation about unit pricing, but it led instead to a comparison of milk prices around the U.S. and Canada. This discussion was more interesting than the one I had intended.
“Wow,” I said to Kris after reading some of the comments. “Can you believe anybody would pay $6 a gallon for milk.”
She has a point. Last week I stopped at the grocery store to buy honey. I was frustrated that the only honey available was from California, Maine, or Argentina (!?!). I wanted Oregon honey, preferably from a farm within twenty miles of our home. I’m willing pay more to buy local products because I want to support local farmers and merchants, to enrich my neighbors and my community.
Money and values
For all of us, shopping decisions go beyond just price. When we shop, we are voting with dollars. I support local merchants. You may support Christian businesses. Many of my friends make financial decisions based on concern for the environment.
I have a friend who lives within walking distance of a national chain supermarket. She could buy all of her food there. Instead, she drives ten minutes to a natural food store, where she pays a premium for her groceries. Obviously this isn’t frugal, but is it foolish? For you, it may be. But my friend is happy to pay the extra money for quality organic food. Buying her food from the natural food store allows her to spend money in support of her values.
Another friend is wary of U.S. dependence on foreign oil and of the environmental damage caused by heavy use of fossil fuels. He lives in a neighborhood that allows him to walk to buy groceries or to see a movie or to eat in a restaurant. He rides his bike to work. When he drives, he uses a Toyota Prius. Though he pays more for some of his choices, he saves money on others. (Choosing a walkable neighborhood is a great way to save.)
A third friend is a vegetarian, in part because of the ecological damage caused by raising animals for food. She also grows a lot of her own fruits and vegetables so that she can be sure of the methods used in production.
Our shopping decisions come from an intersection of money and values. Sometimes the least expensive item isn’t the best choice because it would require you to compromise your personal ethics. Sometimes you’re willing to pay more for a product that is organic or environmentally friendly. Some people are willing to pay $6 for organic milk because of the perceived benefits, not just to themselves, but to the world around them.
The ecology of commerce
Last year, one of my friends loaned me The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken, a book about the future of capitalism, about what sustainable economic systems of tomorrow might look like. I haven’t read the book yet, but I’ve skimmed it, and I’ve found a lot of food for thought. In the introduction Hawken writes:
To create an enduring society, we will need a system of commerce and production where each and every act is inherently sustainable and restorative. […] We must design a system where…the natural, everyday acts of work and life accumulate into a better world as a matter of course, not a matter of conscious altruism.
Is such a system possible? I don’t know. What I view as a better world may not be a better world to you. And isn’t there some value to a system where we do have to make sacrifices, do have to make conscious choices in order to support the causes we believe in? If showing our support for the environment is painless, are we really showing our support?
Hawken proposes eight guidelines that he believes can lead us to an economically and environmentally sustainable future. Though most of these concepts deal with market-level issues, a few have relevance to personal finance. Hawken says the ideal system must:
Be self-actuating as opposed to regulated or morally mandated. Give people a reason to choose organic or locally-produced food and goods. Don’t attempt to legislate it. Don’t proceed from a sense of moral superiority. Make it clear how these choices support the average consumer’s goals and desires.
Honor market principles. “We can’t just ask people to pay more to save the planet,” writes Hawken. “They won’t do it in some cases — and can’t in most.” Not everyone can afford to pay $6 for a gallon of milk. For sustainability to succeed, it must conform to our capitalist culture.
Be more rewarding than our present way of life. Hawken notes that “government, business, and environmental organization cannot create a sustainable society. It will only come about through the accumulated efforts of billions of eager participants.” And in order to get those billions of eager participants, people need to have options that they do not perceive as limiting. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice current comfort for some abstract ideal.
If you’re concerned with how your personal lifestyle affects the environment, consider borrowing Duane Elgin’s Voluntary Simplicity from your library. I’m not a fan of the book — when I reviewed it last summer, I wrote that it wasn’t about simplicity at all, but about “ecological living” — but I do think it could be interesting for those interested in living lightly on the earth and consuming less. Elgin relays four questions designed to encourage conscious simplicity and balanced consumption:
Does what I own or buy promote activity, self-reliance, and involvement, or does it induce passivity and dependence?
Are my consumption patterns basically satisfying, or do I buy much that serves no real need?
How tied are my present job and lifestyle to installment payments, maintenance and repair costs, and the expectations of others?
Do I consider the impact of my consumption patterns on other people and on the earth?
And remember my number one tip for saving the environment: buy less stuff!
Personal choice
When I bought honey at the grocery store last week, I tried to make a purchase that matched my personal values — I tried to buy local. But my grocery store didn’t let me make that choice. Instead, I was forced to compromise. I bought organic honey. From Brazil. By way of Ohio.
How are your shopping decisions influenced by your personal values? Do you consider the environmental impact of the choices you make? Are you willing to pay more for organic produce? Do you go out of the way to support local businesses? Are you worried that choices like these are luxuries available only to the affluent? And if you believe environmental concerns are largely unwarranted, how does this affect your decisions?
In 2006, J.D. founded Get Rich Slowly to document his quest to get out of debt. Over time, he learned how to save and how to invest. Today, he's managed to reach early retirement! He wants to help you master your money — and your life. No scams. No gimmicks. Just smart money advice to help you reach your goals.
I have a friend who lives within walking distance of a national chain supermarket. She could buy all of her food there. Instead, she drives ten minutes to a natural food store, where she pays a premium for her groceries. Obviously this isn’t frugal, but is it foolish?
I disagree with this assessment. Frugality is not about being cheap. It’s about getting the greatest value for your money. Value is subjective, regardless the preachings of certain money zealots.
If you friend finds this is the best way to get greatest value, then then it is absolutely frugal.
Another example…as an athiest, I don’t find any value in tithing to a church. However, a devout Christian would see this as an imperative and very valuable expense. Where I don’t have value, and therefore, frugality, someone else has great frugality because it is of great value to them.
It’s not organic if it came from Brazil! Well, in Brazil it is…
A huge part of buying organic should be that you avoid the consumption of fossil fuels used for transportation. If you buy honey that you got from Brazil via Ohio and you live in Oregon, you are only paying for the label.
“Can you believe anybody would pay $6 a gallon for milk.”
Some people don’t structure their lives out of maximizing their finances.
Some aim for health first, and do the best they can. Some aim for happiness. Some aim for leisure.
It might be an interesting direction to consider the motives and goals of folks who *aren’t* 100% focused on optimizing personal finances now and again. I’d suspect the large portion of us still pay the bills on time, but value different things than you might.
It takes up to four years to become a certified organic farmer for produce. So, just because something has not been “certified” organic doesn’t automatically mean it’s been doused in pesticides, or pumped full of hormones.
And, I bet you didn’t know this, but after three days, organic produce is potentially more harmful to your health than non-organic produce based on the fact that decay and rot begins to set in…So, before preaching to us about the virtues of organic, please inform yourself completely of all the issues.
You can get local honey at the farmer’s market. You aren’t being forced to buy imported honey at the grocery store.
No farmer’s market in April! And no produce stands, either. Give me a month, and I’ll have access to all sorts of wonderful local products. But this just highlights another aspect of this whole dilemma.
We are accustomed to eating a wide variety of food year-round. This isn’t natural. If we demand organic or locally-produced foods, there are all sorts of implications. If I want strawberries in March, they’re going to be from California or Mexico. I need to decide how I feel about that: is it more important to me to have what I want right now, or are there more significant things I should consider.
I would love to eat naturally grown foods. Unfortunately, there is NO guarantee that you buy anything more than a label when you buy “organic” or “natural.” There is not enough regulation in place for companies using those terms. Many people don’t know just how diluted those terms have become.
I don’t mean to bash natural foods, but I worry that what we’re paying for and what we’re getting are two WAY different things.
@ Dave: “And, I bet you didn’t know this, but after three days, organic produce is potentially more harmful to your health than non-organic produce based on the fact that decay and rot begins to set in…So, before preaching to us about the virtues of organic, please inform yourself completely of all the issues.”
I do buy organic and although I have no research to back up your claim (do you?), I must agree that organic produce spoils SO FAST that it sometimes amazes me. It’s normal and natural and to be expected, I guess, but when you stick with organic produce, once-a-week trip to the store is not enough. You need to get there twice weekly.
We have that dilema daily in the UK. We are no longer self sufficient in food. So much of it comes from overseas. When I buy organic it normally is produced by less intensive methods, and therefore more likely to come from Africa, South America, US etal. My other choice is to buy local, non organicly produced food.
But the Supermarkets in their infinite wisdom see fit to have growers send all their produce to distribution centres in the UK (even overseas growers), then onto to places like Poland and Kenya to have poorly paid factory workers put the vegetables in little plastic trays, all the same way up and all the same shape/ length. And then have it all transported back to the UK. So until they stop doing that I will be buying local in season produce, from my local farmers even if they aren’t so hot on not using oganic methods.
I agree with the book, sustainability has to be practical and doable for everyone for it to work. I am actually surprised how much it has all caught on – I thought it would have fizzled a while ago. The people who will strike it rich and change the world are the ones who can create sustainability in products and things without forcing consumers to sacrifice much.
I try to buy national (Italian) produce at the supermarkets, I buy some things organic and/or local. I particularly love the monthly markets where I can find food specialties, organic *and* local produces, ecological cosmetics and handmade shirts – and where the stockbreeder herself explains her meat and lets us taste it after grilling a small piece on the spot. Now that is fun! 😉
Regarding milk, everyone who drinks milk should learn as much as possible about RBGH (assuming they live in a country that allows these hormones). RBGH, commonly shortened to just “growth hormone”, causes many serious illnesses in dairy cattle, and has been shown (in independent labs) to physically alter the chemistry of dairy milk. Anyone who has a spare 1hr 40min should check out the documentary “The World According to Monsanto”. You can watch the whole thing through Google video:
Maybe I’m spoiled because I live in Texas. We can get a lot of produce that’s fairly local and is organic and it’s all at the normal grocery store.
I had this debate with a transplant from Germany to the Berkeley area and she drove me nuts, griping about how American’s don’t care, etc. etc. I then pointed out to her that maybe she should stop using toilet paper, because I was pretty sure there wasn’t a toilet paper factory within 200 miles of Berkeley, CA. Or how about the coffee she was drinking by the thermos.
There is a lot to be said for trying to live locally and I do what I can. But what the world fails to see, IMO, is that the US in it’s shear size probably can’t live like smaller European countries. I’m not exactly sure that you could convince someone living in the Dakotas that they shouldn’t have access to fruit for nine months of the year because of the environmental impact of flying it in.
A.J. wrote: I’m surprised you didn’t explicitly tie this post or the previous energy post to Earth Day.
🙂
They’re implicitly tied to Earth Day.
Actually, the real problem — and this is completely true — is that I couldn’t find an official free-to-use Earth Day logo. I spent HALF AN HOUR (which is way too much time) looking for one. I found a logo that I liked, but it’s under a non-commercial Creative Commons license. Bah! You have to just imagine that there are Earth Day logos on these two posts.
My husband MUST have organic milk. He read a book about it and it makes him sick to drink the regular stuff now. However, because we’re paying so much for milk, i’m having to skip buying other things, like fruit. We’re living on a diet of frozen budget meals and organic milk. This is totally screwed up:)
Capatalism is good at providing profit to companies that offer the best value proposition to consumers. What’s often lacking–and this is not an attack on capitalisim, more of an attack on how our society uses capitalism as a means to absolve itself of all moral responsibility–morality is not rewarded as it should be by the laws.
In my opinion, laws should help create more of a connection beteen between profit and morality. Thinking only about short term profits loses site of the bigger picture. Thinking only about driving prices down right now ingores the burdens future generations will suffer as a result of our “do anything it takes” additude.
It’s a lose lose situation. Because I can afford to sacrifice a little money right now for future people, I choose to do that. I certainly don’t consider myself superior because of it–I would never fault someone who can’t afford locally produced items. But, our laws should help guide the prices in the right direction based on what is in the best interest of society in the long run. That is the morality that is lacking.
People who are in a position to have some foresight about the future and those who are able to help shape policy are held in check by short-sighted profit seekers. It’s the age old dilema that we struggle with at all levels of society but one that we can overcome with more awareness and a lot more caring by the wealthy and powerful.
Some people are digging up the grass in the suburbs and growing money crops to sell. I have a small but very productive garden that provides us with vegetable during the summer and part of the winter. I even had a form of greens that survived the winter in PA. The problem is knowing what to do with all the produce in August.
There was a funny cartoon that I have much simpathy for. A child asks his Mom: “Why do you leave zuchinni at people’s houses?” The mother responds: “Because people want them.” “Then why,” asks the child, “do we have to leave them in the middle of the night?
Give it time. It will fizzle. I do not know if you recall the early 70s, but that environmental movement, while making great strides, faded when fossil fuels got cheap again. This time, it’s going to fizzle because the snake-oil salesmen have gotten into the act and now declare things that are ‘green’ when, in fact,they are anything but. There will be (read: is) a glut of disinformation and misinformation flying around out there and people won’t know which way to turn or what is the ‘right’ thing to do.
I do not go out of my way to buy organic, because I cannot verify that it is, truly, organic. And as I like to say about natural products: there are a host of natural toxins and poisons, so natural doesn’t necessarily mean good for you.
J.D., I agree with Sharon. Make a trip to the Portland Farmer’s Market–it started in early April. Clackamas is also open, but I’m not sure they’d carry honey.
-JD
You say that, and, because of where this discussion started, I am reminded of a Steve Taylor song:
So you need a new car
Let your fingers take a walk
In the business guide for the born again flock
You’ll be keeping all your money, in the Kingdom now
And you’ll only drink milk from a Christian Cow….
That doesn’t forward the discussion any, I just like quoting Steve Taylor whenever possible.
In reply to Walter, the logic of your argument is essentially ‘since I cannot know for sure if X is Y, Y-ness is of no value to me’. I’m not sure this is reasonable. There are empirical scenarios where 100% truth is not sufficient for decision-making. We can make inferences about our world based on incomplete data, and it’s not unreasonable to do so. It’s not difficult to investigate ingredients and ask questions about the food you eat. I think the larger issue is one of priority – I prioritize food quality over most of my other daily routines. As such, it is very much in my best interest to learn as much as possible about the food I eat. Other people may not. Those that do will not fizzle in time. Mainstream media’s coverage of the green/eco/whatever “movement” will.
i think values are incredibly important when deciding how to spend one’s money. unfortunately, i’m not exactly in a position to “vote with my dollars” as the term goes.
i am very excited that the local farmer’s market is starting up again within walking distance from me at work. i’ve actually been able to find some good deals there, and the food is fresher. i considered signing up for a csa plan through the farmer’s market this year, because it’s a fantastic deal and the food is local and fresh, but i will be living alone for half the year. it would go to waste.
The Vancouver farmer’s market is fantastic, and they’re open now. I’ve seen local honey there. They used to be open year-round, but sadly that experiment seems to have failed. 🙁
wow. . . I love this discussion and what a timely post!
JD– Bumblebee farms is located in troutdale. I am doing a series of interviews with Dave, the farmer for my blog. It’s a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) that costs about $550 for 24 weeks (about six months). You can get as much food as you want. It’s certified organic.
Localharvest.org lists all the CSA’s in the United States.
>>How’s your garden coming anyways, JD? Is it “frugal”?
Also, the *cost* of eating organic is different than the sticker *price*. Organic, real foods make some people (like me) less tired. The act of conciously eating alone can make somebody stop wanting to buy and consume sodas and other things that are bad for you. Plus, the act of eating whole foods themselves fills your tummy up faster, so you’re less likely to over-eat. I’ve lost 15 pounds by simply changing to “organic” and drinking more water and no sodas (occasional beer still. .. )
I would’ve thought that you would have jumped on this bandwagon earlier. Check out today’s FoodDay in the oregonian. It’s worth it.
I read, possibly at Peter’s Cross Station, that all things have a cost. The cost has to be paid, in sticker price or other ways. If you are not paying it, someone else is.
I try to remember that. I’m not an organic milk person– I drink way, way too much, for one thing– but I try to buy local because then the cost is local. The labor is local. Anything bad coming from my purchase is local, which means I pay some of it.
I don’t compromise on books, though. I know too many writers. I’m trying to buy the books I’ve liked and will reread so the authors I like will get royalties. No used books unless I can’t find new ones, which sometimes happens. I want the people who write my books to keep writing them, which means I have to pay them in some way.
At our house the big joke when going to buy eggs is “Mom, I’m going to pick up eggs and I will make sure to get the beaked ones!” I will not let anyone buy any eggs that don’t say free range because they cut off the beaks of many of the caged ones so they don’t hurt each other. I think that sounds horrible so I pay whatever the price of free range eggs are even if it is double – you couldn’t be more right about values change how we perceive frugality!
Great discussion. I am a farmer in Iowa and depending on your views on agriculture, I would be considered a commercial and/or local family farmer. We tried to raise an organic garden but it was too heartbreaking to see produce lost to pests. We do eat our own free range eggs, because they have thicker yellower yolks, not a welfare issue, ours can get killed by predators. We sell pork and beef locally but most of it is sold to a packing plant, there is not enough demand in rural iowa to sustain a local rural economy that we can produce. We feed most of the corn we raise and then in return use the manure as fertilizer creating more sustainablity on our farm. I would like to encourage everyone to get to know a farmer and learn more about today’s agriculture and how food is produced. It is not all as the media reports and based on the comments above the mistruths do tickle down but so does the truth.
I think prices get jacked up simply because they are organic, not because they actually cost more to make. The perception is that organic costs more, so it does, when in fact, probably sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Andrea >> Learn how to set your hourly rate says22 April 2008 at 19:20
So, uh, I think I’m the person who said they paid $6 for a half gallon of milk. I usually pay C$5.79 for 2L. Two litres does not perfectly convert to a half gallon. Based on price per ml and converted to US prices, that’s about US$5.44 for a half gallon of *organic* milk — from an urban grocery store, not a big box in the ‘burbs.
As for where the milk comes from, it’s a local milk cooperative. White milk cannot be imported to Canada.
Milk is heavily regulated in Canada. No milk, organic or not, contains antibiotics. Growth and lactation hormones are illegal. All cows in Canada must have access to pasture and clean air. Organic milk and non-organic milk are nutrionally the same in Canada.
However, organic milk-producing cows cannot be given feed grown with synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. Those cows cannot be given antibiotics ever. In comparison, regular dairy cows have to discard milk for 2 days after taking antibiotics.
So, by purchasing organic local milk from a co-op, I’m supporting a number of sustainable practices. We only go through about 2L of milk a week, because we also eat almonds, cheese, yogurt, sour cream and so on. The choice to drink organic milk means spending about $150 extra a year.
I don’t know how I feel about paying more to support the local guy. The local Wal-mart for good or evil is also a local business. They pay their taxes and their employees, etc. They support local organizations.
What if the non-Wal-mart businesses in town sold their merchandise for the same prices as Wal-mart and then set up “donation boxes” at the front of each store saying, “We can’t do business as efficiently as Wal-mart. Please consider a little charity to keep us running.”
Would you just chuck some money in the the collection box and think, “Yeah, you don’t do business as well as Wal-mart?” But that should be rewarded. We need more businesses like that. Here’s a little of my hard-earned cash, cause you don’t earn enough the usual way.
I’m not saying that Wal-mart is necessarily that great. But intentionally shopping where stuff costs more is a kind of charity, and I wondered if people would feel differently if the charity were more obvious.
Karl Staib - Your Work Happiness Matters says22 April 2008 at 20:05
I do pay more for organic produce because I feel that it’s healthier. I also pay more at our local farmers market because I want to support local business. Using my money to cast a vote for the businesses in our area makes me feel good about my choices.
I know that whatever choice I make it will have repercussions. If I organic it may support a farmer in Florida, but I just weigh what is most important to me and go with it. I may support a farmer in Florida, but I would rather do that then buy something that may not be as healthy.
Ok, someone help me out with this one. What’s the difference between “organic” and non-organic honey? I’ve never heard of hormones or anti-biotics for bees.
Joel wrote: What’s the difference between “organic” and non-organic honey? I’ve never heard of hormones or anti-biotics for bees.
I have no idea. I actually was puzzled when I saw the label. Are these free-range bees? I’ve heard arguments that local honey has some actual health benefits (sorry, no evidence at hand to back that up), but organic? I don’t know what that means.
Honey produced by conventional methods may use chemicals and antibiotics to control bee diseases and in production. Organic beekeepers sustain the natural life cycles of bees and of course don’t use the chemicals or antibiotics.
Andrea >> Learn how to set your hourly rate says22 April 2008 at 23:04
In Canada, organic honey means that the bees are from an apiary that is not within 3.5 km of non-organic land. So no pesticides on the flowers and what-have-you.
Is there a prize for buying the most expensive milk? If so, I get it.
Normally I buy Lucerne milk at Safeway, which is kosher (supervised from the time of processing) and costs something like CAD$4.29 for 4 litres (close to a US gallon). But for Passover I buy special milk that comes from Montreal and is supervised from the time of milking. The cost? CAD$5.60 PER LITRE. So I spent $56.00 for enough milk for the 8 days of Passover. Ouch. But I wouldn’t consider doing anything else. (And I know many people who buy this milk all the time, but they generally don’t drink a lot of milk.)
Your interpretation of what I said is not correct. Instead of you saying ’since I cannot know for sure if X is Y, Y-ness is of no value to me’ I would say that ‘the justification for pursuing Y-ness is diminshed,’ much of which is based upon my prior concern that there are, particularly now, too many cases of the unscrupulous profiteering from genuine health and environmental concerns with products that do not provide the benefits being touted. In some cases, it is fairly easy to find out if the products are genuinely organic, and in other cases it’s not. Organic foods is an industry just like any other and just like in any industry, there will be those who cut corners, whether it be the distributor or the supplier of the product. And if people can peddle milk for 50-100% more per gallon claiming it to be organic when it is not, I have no doubt that there are those who are doing it.
I just moved to the UK from California. I’m constantly surprised at how small the price difference is here between organic and non-organic food. 1 quart of local or organic milk costs about £1.60, compared to about £1.20 for the conventional stuff. Choosing organic is usually a no-brainer now, whereas in California I felt like I was constantly debating whether or not I could afford to eat organic food.
Ben @ Trees Full of Money says23 April 2008 at 05:56
There are several couples that my wife and I are friendly with that insist that it is so much better for the environment to buy organically certified foods.
The irony is they have to drive 30 miles to the nearest premium organic food store, when they are literally a 10 minute WALK from the local “chain” grocery store.
I have no problem with them driving the extra miles for better tasting food if they want to, but don’t tell me that driving 60 miles to buy organic food is “better” for the environment.
eating less meat (we’re now at buying NO meat for the house, though I may still indulge when eating out) has made our food dollars go much farther — when we choose organic over non I don’t worry about the price difference because the way I see it I’m using the money saved from what someone else would use for a meat purchase. It generally does feel better to buy organic, especially in terms of dairy. My husband has switched to soy milk (he eats dry cereal with “milk”) which I’ve found works well in cooking, too, so that’s also a work-around for the milk question.
More generally, I want to agree with someone earlier who was making the distinction between frugal and cheap. I like to think about having a set amount of money and asking myself, how do I want to spend it — on one new book or several used? On a smaller amount of organic/local food or lots of mass-produced food? On a single, locally made piece of jewelry purchased directly from the artist or multiple items from a department store? At different times, different answers. (But always bring your own bag!!)
Wow, and I thought I was paying a lot for milk at $8 per gallon. Still, I would pay more if I had to because this stuff is white gold. It comes from a farmer in the next valley, it is raw and whole, and wow is it good. I’ve made the most amazing yogurt and cheese with it. Also, when it sours, you can still use it to make sour milk biscuits and the like – not like pasteurized milk that rots when older and must be thrown out (composted).
Buying locally is important to me for two reasons: first, I can get to know the seller and get comfortable with their operation. The word organic became meaningless to me the day that the USDA got control over it. I want to know that vegetables are grown sustainably, and that animal products come from critters who ate and lived their lives as they were meant. Secondly, I am supporting a local family instead of fattening the coffers of Cargill or Monsanto.
Producing as much of our food as I can is also very important. I love the education my children are getting, and I love the quality of the food. (Jeez, you have to wonder what they are spraying on that “non-organic produce” that doesn’t spoil so quickly to keep it “preserved” so well.) The garden and orchard provide the freshest fruits, vegetables and herbs. The tomato sauce I canned last year was amazing! And the pickles and saurkraut, made using traditional lacto-fermentation techniques, were also wonderful. We also keep chickens, and since they are out on the grass, we raise lambs each year to keep the grass short enough for the chickens. That lamb meat is the best I’ve ever had.
There is no question it is a lot of work, though you would be surprised at how little land you need. We do all of this on about 1.5 acres. At any rate, it is a labor of love, providing my family with the best food that I can, and providing my children with an education of what is real food and how it may be produced in a sustainable manner.
I am surprised slightly that in all the discussion about local produce and seasonal only eating that no one brought up freezing or canning. Am I the last person under 40 who does this?
I’m not fanatical about it but if I am lucky enough to acquire more locally grown veggies than I can eat I plan ahead for leaner months. Squash particularly freezes well, as do soups and sauces made with fresh veggies.
I am still working on ways to can fruits with no sugar that still taste good but its a work in progress.
I’ve written before about how I actually pay *less* for organic food than I would buying conventional produce at a supermarket. My CSA costs just $23/week and it’s enough food to feed our entire family for the week if you add in, say, meat twice per week in addition to it. Even if organic meat costs about $30, that is still just $53 per week to eat completely organic! It doesn’t have to be more expensive, you just have to find an affordable CSA.
Also- this is another benefit that I haven’t seen anyone mention. When you get organic produce, save some seeds. Put them on a piece of newspaper and dry them somewhere. Pop them in some soil to germinate for a few days and then plop them in your front yard. It’s FREE (at this point), and you just might be able to grow some of your own produce.
Personaly I make the decision to only eat “happy” animals. “Happy” means that I know the famer who raised that animal, I know that animal had grass/earth, sky and a happy-ish life. More importantly I know that my food was not killed while sick, hurt or unable to walk. This gives me piece of mind even if it is more expensive.
Because I buy locally pretty much everything, eggs, bread, milk, cheese, butter, meat, vegs, and fruit. My advise to JD is go to the local farmer’s market when it is open and meet farmers you would like to do business with. Most of these people have produce all year long that they can sell you if you know where to locate them. If you make the time to make a local connection you help the community and the earth by not having food shipped to you.
Greener Pastures Says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I think prices get jacked up simply because they are organic, not because they actually cost more to make. The perception is that organic costs more, so it does, when in fact, probably sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Ever have a garden? If you have, have you noticed how much produce you lose if you don’t use any pesticides?
Now, presume that a conventional farmer loses significantly less produce because of his use of pesticides, so he has a larger crop. He sells his crop at a price that covers his costs and gives him a small profit (or sometimes not, because he is almost entirely dependant upon what the processor for his goods is paying).
Now, figure the organic producer loses more of his crop to pests. So his crop is smaller. Yet, he still had to produce the whole crop (including the part lost to pests) at a cost. So he has to get more for his smaller crop to cover his costs.
The local Wal-mart for good or evil is also a local business.
Depends on who owns the Wal-Mart. Does a local person own that Wal-Mart? Or is it a corporate owned store? I don’t know if Wal-Mart franchises or not. But if they don’t, if they are all owned by the central corporation, then no Wal-Mart is really “local”, which in this context generally means locally owned.
Having worked at an apiary for several years, I’m assuming that when you buy honey from a local producer that you’re buying the raw straight-from-the-tap honey that is not pasteurized or creamed?
The honey is so much better. If you live out of town on a farm, then consider buying a few hives from the apiary and working the bees yourself. From experience, there really isn’t all that much work to do. In spring and fall, feed them as much syrup (water mixed with lots of sugar) as they can take and for winter insulate the hives as much as possible so they can survive the winter. Buy a smoker (to pacify the bees while you work the hive) and we used to use burlap bags to burn, when we ran out, we would burn dried up cow patties. Yes, cow dung. It stunk, but it worked and was better to have calm bees vs. getting stung.
Apart from the rainy days getting stung, I really miss working bees. Tons of exercise, lots of fresh air…. ahhhh, perfect. Unless you’re allergic of course.
The discussion of frugalness or cost versus basically ethical eating is something that I wrestle with. In our household the vast majority of time we buy organic or free range meat and milk, and also most (not all, not the canned stuff) of produce as organic or local as well. The reason for the milk choice is that my 2 children drink a TON of milk, so any exposure I would like to minimize. The meat I buy I swear tastes better than the 99 cent specials at the big box, for the quality alone I would rather eat less but better meat than vice versa. Regarding organic fruits and veggies, I don’t know if they taste better or not, maybe they do, maybe they don’t. But alot of stuff I purchase I don’t necessarily purchase for what effect it has on me, but what effect it has on the environment. On example there is huge mortality (up to 50%) of migrating songbirds who visit conventional agricultural land in South America, due to their pesticide use.
Now all these decisions cost more money than conventional choices, and it restricts my ability to reduce my food budget. Right now I can afford it, but I’m not sure what I would do if I was faced with if it did make the difference in balancing our budget or not. At that point I would have to research even more and pick and choose my highest priorities, and be more flexible on the rest.
Another point I wanted to make is that the amount of greenhouse gases due to food production is way more influenced by the amount of animal (meat, dairy) product in one’s diet than distance traveled. So if you don’t want to count food miles, or want to do more to reduce your footprint, simply increase the number of meatless meals you eat a week.
Nice post – and something I discuss in my own life.
I do the local thing for food as much as I am able. It is a lot of extra work but I enjoy it for the most part.
One thing that is v. expensive but I am commited to most of the time: shopping from local merchants. I am so sick of seeing large corps come in and squash “the little people”. Every town looks the same to me for the most part and I still want people to make a living from their own business in the U.S.
Sometimes it is hard committing to this; many small merchants in my neighborhood don’t make it easy – such as limited hours – or- my fave! not being open when I arrive although it is within their posted times! And also I’m finding the selection is limited and/or they are out of stuff I need a lot. I try to stick it out but enough weeks of this and I find myself at Giant and the PetSmart – which makes me feel disappointment within myself. Shopping the locals for necessity is definitely more expensive, but I feel it is worth it for the “greater good”.
By staying in my neighborhood to spend the bulk of my cash too, I get to walk everywhere and not use gas. That appeals to me regardless of how much gas costs. I was like that when it was $1.10/gal.
“I bought organic honey. From Brazil. By way of Ohio.” Sadly you didn’t buy “organic” honey. Central and South America have different pesitcide standards than the US. Products from these areas are exposed to MANY MORE PESTICIDE TREATMENTS AND HEAVIER PESTICIDES than are used in America. There is no way to certify honey as organic anyway, if you think about it, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN TELL THE BEES TO ONLY GO TO UNSPRAYED FLOWERS. Crops south of the border are FREQUENTLY AND HEAVILY DRENCHED in pesticides. You bought the cheapest honey, but it wasn’t organic, and the sale sent American money to another countryy instead of the cash going to a local farmer. WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT WHICH DOES THAT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS, SO LIKE YOU, I TRY TO SPEND MY MONEY LOCALLY. Try advertising on Craigslist for local honey and I bet you find a beekeeper in the neighborhood for when you need another jar. If you want strawberries or grapes in January or February, try to buy them from California, as the south of the border ones are treated with loads more toxic stuff!
I am so surprised that no one has mentioned the health benefits of buying LOCAL honey. When you eat honey made from bees that live off the local flowers you become less allergic to them and seasonal allergies go down. Even though the honey is $6 it is still way cheaper than allegra or claritin.
I think that any “advice” from someone without experience working in agricultural production/regulation should be taken with a grain of salt and a pound of personal research. Profit margins are higher on organic goods, and individuals buy it because of rumors and myths about organic food.
Organic farms produce food differently. True, the cows do not receive antibiotics or rbGH/rBST on organic farms, but the end result for both is milk WITHOUT antibiotics. Milk (organic or not) has trace amounts of rbGH/rBST since that is a protein found in ALL COWS. Not using antibiotics actually makes cows suffer MORE. & if recovery without medication seems unlikely, a dairy cow with a simple respiratory infection will be slaughtered for its meat, or sold to a traditional farm where she can get the medicine she needs.
Regular milk is pasteurized and has a shelf life of about 20 days. Organic milk is ultrapasteurized (which is more forgiving of poor quality milk) such that it has a shelf life of about 90 days. What? Your milk has an expiration date comparable to real milk? Your store is putting it out in that time frame so you’ll think it’s fresher than regular milk!
“Free range?” Not monitored, and the male chickens are still killed in the same ways. The range is a small enclosure, unable to fit more than a few chickens at a time. Most don’t get that time at all. Sorry, if you’re not into animals being treated cruelly, better to be a vegetarian. Organic and free range animals suffer as much, if not more, than on commercial farms.
Well surely organic produce is better, right? Nope. Organic production is far less efficient than modern methods, so organic farmers use more natural and man-made resources (i.e. land and fuel) to produce their crops. Not to mention that most organic products are flown in from other countries. Why hello there, carbon footprint!
Your best bet for the environment is to buy locally-grown or locally-produced. But don’t fool yourself into thinking that organic is healthier or better for animals or more environmentally friendly. You’ve just bought into the hype.
As for Hawken asking us to not ‘attempt to legislate’ supporting local and organic farmers: The large farmers DO legislate for their favor. This is why corn-based and soy-based products can be so cheap, because they are government-subsidized.
Why not subsidize small organic farmers instead if that is something our society agrees is important enough to subsidize?
“If showing our support for the environment is painless, are we really showing our support?”
The best way to support a cause is to make it easy for people who don’t care as much about the cause and won’t invest as much as you will.
It’s win-win, if you can pull it off: More people support your cause, even if you haven’t raised their actual concern. Since they can easily participate, the problem takes on a smaller size and they are more willing to care about it – since the problem now seems solvable. And you get the same ease or affordability that you’ve worked to bring to others.
Right now, affordable and convenient local produce is tough to come by. A site like LocalHarvest, however, helps people locate affordable local foods that often have convenient delivery. Pioneer Organics is a business that makes buying organic food easier and delivers (great for car-free living!), plus they clearly mark local foods as well.
And I think I’m going to try our old CSA again . . . thanks for the reminder, y’all!
Okay, so I hope I don’t sound like a jerk here, and I don’t want to discourage anyone who consumes responsibly. But I’m not sure that the best way to change the world is by changing our consumption patterns. I believe this thought may be a sad symptom of a world in which we believe that everything has to do with consumption. I think it probably has more to do with the way you treat people every day. Maybe shopping responsibly helps you support in a very indirect way the effort to make the world a better place, but you can support that effort more effectively by just being a decent, helpful person and being kind to other people you encounter in your daily life. I feel this is actually much more difficult and more important than changing what we buy, although I won’t criticize the genuinely good sentiments that are often behind this type of behavior.
As for Hawken asking us to not ‘attempt to legislate’ supporting local and organic farmers: The large farmers DO legislate for their favor. This is why corn-based and soy-based products can be so cheap, because they are government-subsidized.
There are organic corn and soybean farmers and there are eligible for the same support as non-organic. It is by crop and not method of production. BTW there are some organic farmers who are larger than non organic. Size does not determine method of production either.
Be self-actuating as opposed to regulated or morally mandated
Revisiting this post, it occurs to me that sometimes things must be morally mandated in our society. The proper treatment of the animals we eat, for instance.
If we simply rely on the companies to do right, it will never happen. We live in a Milton Friedman society, where corporations have been told for years and years by our most “free-market” leaders that their only responsibility is to earn money, regardless the harm they may cause. If we want corporations to do the right thing in this day and age, it MUST be mandated or it will not happen. We have seen this again and again over the last 8-10 years. Must we list the constant reminders? Start with Enron and work your way down…
My feeling is that you should have gone with the conventional California honey and not the organic Brazilian honey. CA practically local to OR. BUT, There was an interesting article in the New Yorker discussing the idea of carbon footprints and the problems trying to measure them. Relevant to this discussion were several scenarios (some involving Great Britain as I recall) where the carbon generated by local produce was actually greater than the carbon from imported produce, even from places as distant as New Zealand or Africa, because those more fertile lands require less carbon intensive farming. Similarly in New York city, the carbon footprint of wine from France is less than that from California. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_specter
There are 66 comments to "Money and Values: The Ecology of Commerce".
yes, these are luxuries for the affluent.
I have a friend who lives within walking distance of a national chain supermarket. She could buy all of her food there. Instead, she drives ten minutes to a natural food store, where she pays a premium for her groceries. Obviously this isn’t frugal, but is it foolish?
I disagree with this assessment. Frugality is not about being cheap. It’s about getting the greatest value for your money. Value is subjective, regardless the preachings of certain money zealots.
If you friend finds this is the best way to get greatest value, then then it is absolutely frugal.
Another example…as an athiest, I don’t find any value in tithing to a church. However, a devout Christian would see this as an imperative and very valuable expense. Where I don’t have value, and therefore, frugality, someone else has great frugality because it is of great value to them.
hahaha!
It’s not organic if it came from Brazil! Well, in Brazil it is…
A huge part of buying organic should be that you avoid the consumption of fossil fuels used for transportation. If you buy honey that you got from Brazil via Ohio and you live in Oregon, you are only paying for the label.
Buying organic is an investment in your health.
How much does colon cancer surgery cost?
“Can you believe anybody would pay $6 a gallon for milk.”
Some people don’t structure their lives out of maximizing their finances.
Some aim for health first, and do the best they can. Some aim for happiness. Some aim for leisure.
It might be an interesting direction to consider the motives and goals of folks who *aren’t* 100% focused on optimizing personal finances now and again. I’d suspect the large portion of us still pay the bills on time, but value different things than you might.
J.D.,
You can get local honey at the farmer’s market. You aren’t being forced to buy imported honey at the grocery store.
It takes up to four years to become a certified organic farmer for produce. So, just because something has not been “certified” organic doesn’t automatically mean it’s been doused in pesticides, or pumped full of hormones.
And, I bet you didn’t know this, but after three days, organic produce is potentially more harmful to your health than non-organic produce based on the fact that decay and rot begins to set in…So, before preaching to us about the virtues of organic, please inform yourself completely of all the issues.
You can get local honey at the farmer’s market. You aren’t being forced to buy imported honey at the grocery store.
No farmer’s market in April! And no produce stands, either. Give me a month, and I’ll have access to all sorts of wonderful local products. But this just highlights another aspect of this whole dilemma.
We are accustomed to eating a wide variety of food year-round. This isn’t natural. If we demand organic or locally-produced foods, there are all sorts of implications. If I want strawberries in March, they’re going to be from California or Mexico. I need to decide how I feel about that: is it more important to me to have what I want right now, or are there more significant things I should consider.
I would love to eat naturally grown foods. Unfortunately, there is NO guarantee that you buy anything more than a label when you buy “organic” or “natural.” There is not enough regulation in place for companies using those terms. Many people don’t know just how diluted those terms have become.
I don’t mean to bash natural foods, but I worry that what we’re paying for and what we’re getting are two WAY different things.
@ Dave: “And, I bet you didn’t know this, but after three days, organic produce is potentially more harmful to your health than non-organic produce based on the fact that decay and rot begins to set in…So, before preaching to us about the virtues of organic, please inform yourself completely of all the issues.”
I do buy organic and although I have no research to back up your claim (do you?), I must agree that organic produce spoils SO FAST that it sometimes amazes me. It’s normal and natural and to be expected, I guess, but when you stick with organic produce, once-a-week trip to the store is not enough. You need to get there twice weekly.
Hahahahah Organic vs Air Miles debate
We have that dilema daily in the UK. We are no longer self sufficient in food. So much of it comes from overseas. When I buy organic it normally is produced by less intensive methods, and therefore more likely to come from Africa, South America, US etal. My other choice is to buy local, non organicly produced food.
But the Supermarkets in their infinite wisdom see fit to have growers send all their produce to distribution centres in the UK (even overseas growers), then onto to places like Poland and Kenya to have poorly paid factory workers put the vegetables in little plastic trays, all the same way up and all the same shape/ length. And then have it all transported back to the UK. So until they stop doing that I will be buying local in season produce, from my local farmers even if they aren’t so hot on not using oganic methods.
I agree with the book, sustainability has to be practical and doable for everyone for it to work. I am actually surprised how much it has all caught on – I thought it would have fizzled a while ago. The people who will strike it rich and change the world are the ones who can create sustainability in products and things without forcing consumers to sacrifice much.
I try to buy national (Italian) produce at the supermarkets, I buy some things organic and/or local. I particularly love the monthly markets where I can find food specialties, organic *and* local produces, ecological cosmetics and handmade shirts – and where the stockbreeder herself explains her meat and lets us taste it after grilling a small piece on the spot. Now that is fun! 😉
Regarding milk, everyone who drinks milk should learn as much as possible about RBGH (assuming they live in a country that allows these hormones). RBGH, commonly shortened to just “growth hormone”, causes many serious illnesses in dairy cattle, and has been shown (in independent labs) to physically alter the chemistry of dairy milk. Anyone who has a spare 1hr 40min should check out the documentary “The World According to Monsanto”. You can watch the whole thing through Google video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-842180934463681887
I’m surprised you didn’t explicitly tie this post or the previous energy post to Earth Day.
Happy Earth Day
Maybe I’m spoiled because I live in Texas. We can get a lot of produce that’s fairly local and is organic and it’s all at the normal grocery store.
I had this debate with a transplant from Germany to the Berkeley area and she drove me nuts, griping about how American’s don’t care, etc. etc. I then pointed out to her that maybe she should stop using toilet paper, because I was pretty sure there wasn’t a toilet paper factory within 200 miles of Berkeley, CA. Or how about the coffee she was drinking by the thermos.
There is a lot to be said for trying to live locally and I do what I can. But what the world fails to see, IMO, is that the US in it’s shear size probably can’t live like smaller European countries. I’m not exactly sure that you could convince someone living in the Dakotas that they shouldn’t have access to fruit for nine months of the year because of the environmental impact of flying it in.
A.J. wrote: I’m surprised you didn’t explicitly tie this post or the previous energy post to Earth Day.
🙂
They’re implicitly tied to Earth Day.
Actually, the real problem — and this is completely true — is that I couldn’t find an official free-to-use Earth Day logo. I spent HALF AN HOUR (which is way too much time) looking for one. I found a logo that I liked, but it’s under a non-commercial Creative Commons license. Bah! You have to just imagine that there are Earth Day logos on these two posts.
My husband MUST have organic milk. He read a book about it and it makes him sick to drink the regular stuff now. However, because we’re paying so much for milk, i’m having to skip buying other things, like fruit. We’re living on a diet of frozen budget meals and organic milk. This is totally screwed up:)
In my opinion, laws should help create more of a connection beteen between profit and morality. Thinking only about short term profits loses site of the bigger picture. Thinking only about driving prices down right now ingores the burdens future generations will suffer as a result of our “do anything it takes” additude.
It’s a lose lose situation. Because I can afford to sacrifice a little money right now for future people, I choose to do that. I certainly don’t consider myself superior because of it–I would never fault someone who can’t afford locally produced items. But, our laws should help guide the prices in the right direction based on what is in the best interest of society in the long run. That is the morality that is lacking.
People who are in a position to have some foresight about the future and those who are able to help shape policy are held in check by short-sighted profit seekers. It’s the age old dilema that we struggle with at all levels of society but one that we can overcome with more awareness and a lot more caring by the wealthy and powerful.
Some people are digging up the grass in the suburbs and growing money crops to sell. I have a small but very productive garden that provides us with vegetable during the summer and part of the winter. I even had a form of greens that survived the winter in PA. The problem is knowing what to do with all the produce in August.
There was a funny cartoon that I have much simpathy for. A child asks his Mom: “Why do you leave zuchinni at people’s houses?” The mother responds: “Because people want them.” “Then why,” asks the child, “do we have to leave them in the middle of the night?
Andy,
Give it time. It will fizzle. I do not know if you recall the early 70s, but that environmental movement, while making great strides, faded when fossil fuels got cheap again. This time, it’s going to fizzle because the snake-oil salesmen have gotten into the act and now declare things that are ‘green’ when, in fact,they are anything but. There will be (read: is) a glut of disinformation and misinformation flying around out there and people won’t know which way to turn or what is the ‘right’ thing to do.
I do not go out of my way to buy organic, because I cannot verify that it is, truly, organic. And as I like to say about natural products: there are a host of natural toxins and poisons, so natural doesn’t necessarily mean good for you.
J.D., I agree with Sharon. Make a trip to the Portland Farmer’s Market–it started in early April. Clackamas is also open, but I’m not sure they’d carry honey.
-JD
You say that, and, because of where this discussion started, I am reminded of a Steve Taylor song:
So you need a new car
Let your fingers take a walk
In the business guide for the born again flock
You’ll be keeping all your money, in the Kingdom now
And you’ll only drink milk from a Christian Cow….
That doesn’t forward the discussion any, I just like quoting Steve Taylor whenever possible.
In reply to Walter, the logic of your argument is essentially ‘since I cannot know for sure if X is Y, Y-ness is of no value to me’. I’m not sure this is reasonable. There are empirical scenarios where 100% truth is not sufficient for decision-making. We can make inferences about our world based on incomplete data, and it’s not unreasonable to do so. It’s not difficult to investigate ingredients and ask questions about the food you eat. I think the larger issue is one of priority – I prioritize food quality over most of my other daily routines. As such, it is very much in my best interest to learn as much as possible about the food I eat. Other people may not. Those that do will not fizzle in time. Mainstream media’s coverage of the green/eco/whatever “movement” will.
i think values are incredibly important when deciding how to spend one’s money. unfortunately, i’m not exactly in a position to “vote with my dollars” as the term goes.
i am very excited that the local farmer’s market is starting up again within walking distance from me at work. i’ve actually been able to find some good deals there, and the food is fresher. i considered signing up for a csa plan through the farmer’s market this year, because it’s a fantastic deal and the food is local and fresh, but i will be living alone for half the year. it would go to waste.
@both J.D.s 🙂
The Vancouver farmer’s market is fantastic, and they’re open now. I’ve seen local honey there. They used to be open year-round, but sadly that experiment seems to have failed. 🙁
wow. . . I love this discussion and what a timely post!
JD– Bumblebee farms is located in troutdale. I am doing a series of interviews with Dave, the farmer for my blog. It’s a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) that costs about $550 for 24 weeks (about six months). You can get as much food as you want. It’s certified organic.
Localharvest.org lists all the CSA’s in the United States.
>>How’s your garden coming anyways, JD? Is it “frugal”?
Also, the *cost* of eating organic is different than the sticker *price*. Organic, real foods make some people (like me) less tired. The act of conciously eating alone can make somebody stop wanting to buy and consume sodas and other things that are bad for you. Plus, the act of eating whole foods themselves fills your tummy up faster, so you’re less likely to over-eat. I’ve lost 15 pounds by simply changing to “organic” and drinking more water and no sodas (occasional beer still. .. )
I would’ve thought that you would have jumped on this bandwagon earlier. Check out today’s FoodDay in the oregonian. It’s worth it.
Zach
pennywise-poundfoolish.typepad.com
How’s your garden coming anyways, JD? Is it “frugal”?
HA! Excellent point. 🙂
Odds are looking against it at this point, aren’t they?
I read, possibly at Peter’s Cross Station, that all things have a cost. The cost has to be paid, in sticker price or other ways. If you are not paying it, someone else is.
I try to remember that. I’m not an organic milk person– I drink way, way too much, for one thing– but I try to buy local because then the cost is local. The labor is local. Anything bad coming from my purchase is local, which means I pay some of it.
I don’t compromise on books, though. I know too many writers. I’m trying to buy the books I’ve liked and will reread so the authors I like will get royalties. No used books unless I can’t find new ones, which sometimes happens. I want the people who write my books to keep writing them, which means I have to pay them in some way.
At our house the big joke when going to buy eggs is “Mom, I’m going to pick up eggs and I will make sure to get the beaked ones!” I will not let anyone buy any eggs that don’t say free range because they cut off the beaks of many of the caged ones so they don’t hurt each other. I think that sounds horrible so I pay whatever the price of free range eggs are even if it is double – you couldn’t be more right about values change how we perceive frugality!
@JD.
stick with it till harvest time. Growing is slow business and it’s been a hell of a hard season this year.
Recommended reading:
barbara kingsolver’s “Animal, Vegetable, Miracle”
I think prices get jacked up simply because they are organic, not because they actually cost more to make. The perception is that organic costs more, so it does, when in fact, probably sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t.
So, uh, I think I’m the person who said they paid $6 for a half gallon of milk. I usually pay C$5.79 for 2L. Two litres does not perfectly convert to a half gallon. Based on price per ml and converted to US prices, that’s about US$5.44 for a half gallon of *organic* milk — from an urban grocery store, not a big box in the ‘burbs.
As for where the milk comes from, it’s a local milk cooperative. White milk cannot be imported to Canada.
Milk is heavily regulated in Canada. No milk, organic or not, contains antibiotics. Growth and lactation hormones are illegal. All cows in Canada must have access to pasture and clean air. Organic milk and non-organic milk are nutrionally the same in Canada.
However, organic milk-producing cows cannot be given feed grown with synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. Those cows cannot be given antibiotics ever. In comparison, regular dairy cows have to discard milk for 2 days after taking antibiotics.
So, by purchasing organic local milk from a co-op, I’m supporting a number of sustainable practices. We only go through about 2L of milk a week, because we also eat almonds, cheese, yogurt, sour cream and so on. The choice to drink organic milk means spending about $150 extra a year.
I don’t know how I feel about paying more to support the local guy. The local Wal-mart for good or evil is also a local business. They pay their taxes and their employees, etc. They support local organizations.
What if the non-Wal-mart businesses in town sold their merchandise for the same prices as Wal-mart and then set up “donation boxes” at the front of each store saying, “We can’t do business as efficiently as Wal-mart. Please consider a little charity to keep us running.”
Would you just chuck some money in the the collection box and think, “Yeah, you don’t do business as well as Wal-mart?” But that should be rewarded. We need more businesses like that. Here’s a little of my hard-earned cash, cause you don’t earn enough the usual way.
I’m not saying that Wal-mart is necessarily that great. But intentionally shopping where stuff costs more is a kind of charity, and I wondered if people would feel differently if the charity were more obvious.
I do pay more for organic produce because I feel that it’s healthier. I also pay more at our local farmers market because I want to support local business. Using my money to cast a vote for the businesses in our area makes me feel good about my choices.
I know that whatever choice I make it will have repercussions. If I organic it may support a farmer in Florida, but I just weigh what is most important to me and go with it. I may support a farmer in Florida, but I would rather do that then buy something that may not be as healthy.
Ok, someone help me out with this one. What’s the difference between “organic” and non-organic honey? I’ve never heard of hormones or anti-biotics for bees.
Joel wrote: What’s the difference between “organic” and non-organic honey? I’ve never heard of hormones or anti-biotics for bees.
I have no idea. I actually was puzzled when I saw the label. Are these free-range bees? I’ve heard arguments that local honey has some actual health benefits (sorry, no evidence at hand to back that up), but organic? I don’t know what that means.
Honey produced by conventional methods may use chemicals and antibiotics to control bee diseases and in production. Organic beekeepers sustain the natural life cycles of bees and of course don’t use the chemicals or antibiotics.
In Canada, organic honey means that the bees are from an apiary that is not within 3.5 km of non-organic land. So no pesticides on the flowers and what-have-you.
Is there a prize for buying the most expensive milk? If so, I get it.
Normally I buy Lucerne milk at Safeway, which is kosher (supervised from the time of processing) and costs something like CAD$4.29 for 4 litres (close to a US gallon). But for Passover I buy special milk that comes from Montreal and is supervised from the time of milking. The cost? CAD$5.60 PER LITRE. So I spent $56.00 for enough milk for the 8 days of Passover. Ouch. But I wouldn’t consider doing anything else. (And I know many people who buy this milk all the time, but they generally don’t drink a lot of milk.)
Your friend drives 10 minutes to the store to buy milk rather than walk next door?
How is this an appropriate example for upholding Earth Day?
I hope she brings her own grocery bag.
The local Wal-mart for good or evil is also a local business
The point is, are the products local?
To J.,
Your interpretation of what I said is not correct. Instead of you saying ’since I cannot know for sure if X is Y, Y-ness is of no value to me’ I would say that ‘the justification for pursuing Y-ness is diminshed,’ much of which is based upon my prior concern that there are, particularly now, too many cases of the unscrupulous profiteering from genuine health and environmental concerns with products that do not provide the benefits being touted. In some cases, it is fairly easy to find out if the products are genuinely organic, and in other cases it’s not. Organic foods is an industry just like any other and just like in any industry, there will be those who cut corners, whether it be the distributor or the supplier of the product. And if people can peddle milk for 50-100% more per gallon claiming it to be organic when it is not, I have no doubt that there are those who are doing it.
I just moved to the UK from California. I’m constantly surprised at how small the price difference is here between organic and non-organic food. 1 quart of local or organic milk costs about £1.60, compared to about £1.20 for the conventional stuff. Choosing organic is usually a no-brainer now, whereas in California I felt like I was constantly debating whether or not I could afford to eat organic food.
There are several couples that my wife and I are friendly with that insist that it is so much better for the environment to buy organically certified foods.
The irony is they have to drive 30 miles to the nearest premium organic food store, when they are literally a 10 minute WALK from the local “chain” grocery store.
I have no problem with them driving the extra miles for better tasting food if they want to, but don’t tell me that driving 60 miles to buy organic food is “better” for the environment.
eating less meat (we’re now at buying NO meat for the house, though I may still indulge when eating out) has made our food dollars go much farther — when we choose organic over non I don’t worry about the price difference because the way I see it I’m using the money saved from what someone else would use for a meat purchase. It generally does feel better to buy organic, especially in terms of dairy. My husband has switched to soy milk (he eats dry cereal with “milk”) which I’ve found works well in cooking, too, so that’s also a work-around for the milk question.
More generally, I want to agree with someone earlier who was making the distinction between frugal and cheap. I like to think about having a set amount of money and asking myself, how do I want to spend it — on one new book or several used? On a smaller amount of organic/local food or lots of mass-produced food? On a single, locally made piece of jewelry purchased directly from the artist or multiple items from a department store? At different times, different answers. (But always bring your own bag!!)
Wow, and I thought I was paying a lot for milk at $8 per gallon. Still, I would pay more if I had to because this stuff is white gold. It comes from a farmer in the next valley, it is raw and whole, and wow is it good. I’ve made the most amazing yogurt and cheese with it. Also, when it sours, you can still use it to make sour milk biscuits and the like – not like pasteurized milk that rots when older and must be thrown out (composted).
Buying locally is important to me for two reasons: first, I can get to know the seller and get comfortable with their operation. The word organic became meaningless to me the day that the USDA got control over it. I want to know that vegetables are grown sustainably, and that animal products come from critters who ate and lived their lives as they were meant. Secondly, I am supporting a local family instead of fattening the coffers of Cargill or Monsanto.
Producing as much of our food as I can is also very important. I love the education my children are getting, and I love the quality of the food. (Jeez, you have to wonder what they are spraying on that “non-organic produce” that doesn’t spoil so quickly to keep it “preserved” so well.) The garden and orchard provide the freshest fruits, vegetables and herbs. The tomato sauce I canned last year was amazing! And the pickles and saurkraut, made using traditional lacto-fermentation techniques, were also wonderful. We also keep chickens, and since they are out on the grass, we raise lambs each year to keep the grass short enough for the chickens. That lamb meat is the best I’ve ever had.
There is no question it is a lot of work, though you would be surprised at how little land you need. We do all of this on about 1.5 acres. At any rate, it is a labor of love, providing my family with the best food that I can, and providing my children with an education of what is real food and how it may be produced in a sustainable manner.
I am surprised slightly that in all the discussion about local produce and seasonal only eating that no one brought up freezing or canning. Am I the last person under 40 who does this?
I’m not fanatical about it but if I am lucky enough to acquire more locally grown veggies than I can eat I plan ahead for leaner months. Squash particularly freezes well, as do soups and sauces made with fresh veggies.
I am still working on ways to can fruits with no sugar that still taste good but its a work in progress.
I’ve written before about how I actually pay *less* for organic food than I would buying conventional produce at a supermarket. My CSA costs just $23/week and it’s enough food to feed our entire family for the week if you add in, say, meat twice per week in addition to it. Even if organic meat costs about $30, that is still just $53 per week to eat completely organic! It doesn’t have to be more expensive, you just have to find an affordable CSA.
Also- this is another benefit that I haven’t seen anyone mention. When you get organic produce, save some seeds. Put them on a piece of newspaper and dry them somewhere. Pop them in some soil to germinate for a few days and then plop them in your front yard. It’s FREE (at this point), and you just might be able to grow some of your own produce.
For more info about CSAs see:
http://www.localharvest.org/csa/
Personaly I make the decision to only eat “happy” animals. “Happy” means that I know the famer who raised that animal, I know that animal had grass/earth, sky and a happy-ish life. More importantly I know that my food was not killed while sick, hurt or unable to walk. This gives me piece of mind even if it is more expensive.
Because I buy locally pretty much everything, eggs, bread, milk, cheese, butter, meat, vegs, and fruit. My advise to JD is go to the local farmer’s market when it is open and meet farmers you would like to do business with. Most of these people have produce all year long that they can sell you if you know where to locate them. If you make the time to make a local connection you help the community and the earth by not having food shipped to you.
Greener Pastures Says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I think prices get jacked up simply because they are organic, not because they actually cost more to make. The perception is that organic costs more, so it does, when in fact, probably sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Ever have a garden? If you have, have you noticed how much produce you lose if you don’t use any pesticides?
Now, presume that a conventional farmer loses significantly less produce because of his use of pesticides, so he has a larger crop. He sells his crop at a price that covers his costs and gives him a small profit (or sometimes not, because he is almost entirely dependant upon what the processor for his goods is paying).
Now, figure the organic producer loses more of his crop to pests. So his crop is smaller. Yet, he still had to produce the whole crop (including the part lost to pests) at a cost. So he has to get more for his smaller crop to cover his costs.
The local Wal-mart for good or evil is also a local business.
Depends on who owns the Wal-Mart. Does a local person own that Wal-Mart? Or is it a corporate owned store? I don’t know if Wal-Mart franchises or not. But if they don’t, if they are all owned by the central corporation, then no Wal-Mart is really “local”, which in this context generally means locally owned.
@J.D. and all else who love honey.
Having worked at an apiary for several years, I’m assuming that when you buy honey from a local producer that you’re buying the raw straight-from-the-tap honey that is not pasteurized or creamed?
The honey is so much better. If you live out of town on a farm, then consider buying a few hives from the apiary and working the bees yourself. From experience, there really isn’t all that much work to do. In spring and fall, feed them as much syrup (water mixed with lots of sugar) as they can take and for winter insulate the hives as much as possible so they can survive the winter. Buy a smoker (to pacify the bees while you work the hive) and we used to use burlap bags to burn, when we ran out, we would burn dried up cow patties. Yes, cow dung. It stunk, but it worked and was better to have calm bees vs. getting stung.
Apart from the rainy days getting stung, I really miss working bees. Tons of exercise, lots of fresh air…. ahhhh, perfect. Unless you’re allergic of course.
@JD
One other good reason to buy local honey:
http://www.helpthehoneybees.com/#/howYouCanHelp/signAPetition/
The discussion of frugalness or cost versus basically ethical eating is something that I wrestle with. In our household the vast majority of time we buy organic or free range meat and milk, and also most (not all, not the canned stuff) of produce as organic or local as well. The reason for the milk choice is that my 2 children drink a TON of milk, so any exposure I would like to minimize. The meat I buy I swear tastes better than the 99 cent specials at the big box, for the quality alone I would rather eat less but better meat than vice versa. Regarding organic fruits and veggies, I don’t know if they taste better or not, maybe they do, maybe they don’t. But alot of stuff I purchase I don’t necessarily purchase for what effect it has on me, but what effect it has on the environment. On example there is huge mortality (up to 50%) of migrating songbirds who visit conventional agricultural land in South America, due to their pesticide use.
Now all these decisions cost more money than conventional choices, and it restricts my ability to reduce my food budget. Right now I can afford it, but I’m not sure what I would do if I was faced with if it did make the difference in balancing our budget or not. At that point I would have to research even more and pick and choose my highest priorities, and be more flexible on the rest.
Another point I wanted to make is that the amount of greenhouse gases due to food production is way more influenced by the amount of animal (meat, dairy) product in one’s diet than distance traveled. So if you don’t want to count food miles, or want to do more to reduce your footprint, simply increase the number of meatless meals you eat a week.
Nice post – and something I discuss in my own life.
I do the local thing for food as much as I am able. It is a lot of extra work but I enjoy it for the most part.
One thing that is v. expensive but I am commited to most of the time: shopping from local merchants. I am so sick of seeing large corps come in and squash “the little people”. Every town looks the same to me for the most part and I still want people to make a living from their own business in the U.S.
Sometimes it is hard committing to this; many small merchants in my neighborhood don’t make it easy – such as limited hours – or- my fave! not being open when I arrive although it is within their posted times! And also I’m finding the selection is limited and/or they are out of stuff I need a lot. I try to stick it out but enough weeks of this and I find myself at Giant and the PetSmart – which makes me feel disappointment within myself. Shopping the locals for necessity is definitely more expensive, but I feel it is worth it for the “greater good”.
By staying in my neighborhood to spend the bulk of my cash too, I get to walk everywhere and not use gas. That appeals to me regardless of how much gas costs. I was like that when it was $1.10/gal.
“I bought organic honey. From Brazil. By way of Ohio.” Sadly you didn’t buy “organic” honey. Central and South America have different pesitcide standards than the US. Products from these areas are exposed to MANY MORE PESTICIDE TREATMENTS AND HEAVIER PESTICIDES than are used in America. There is no way to certify honey as organic anyway, if you think about it, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN TELL THE BEES TO ONLY GO TO UNSPRAYED FLOWERS. Crops south of the border are FREQUENTLY AND HEAVILY DRENCHED in pesticides. You bought the cheapest honey, but it wasn’t organic, and the sale sent American money to another countryy instead of the cash going to a local farmer. WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT WHICH DOES THAT WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS, SO LIKE YOU, I TRY TO SPEND MY MONEY LOCALLY. Try advertising on Craigslist for local honey and I bet you find a beekeeper in the neighborhood for when you need another jar. If you want strawberries or grapes in January or February, try to buy them from California, as the south of the border ones are treated with loads more toxic stuff!
I am so surprised that no one has mentioned the health benefits of buying LOCAL honey. When you eat honey made from bees that live off the local flowers you become less allergic to them and seasonal allergies go down. Even though the honey is $6 it is still way cheaper than allegra or claritin.
I think that any “advice” from someone without experience working in agricultural production/regulation should be taken with a grain of salt and a pound of personal research. Profit margins are higher on organic goods, and individuals buy it because of rumors and myths about organic food.
Organic farms produce food differently. True, the cows do not receive antibiotics or rbGH/rBST on organic farms, but the end result for both is milk WITHOUT antibiotics. Milk (organic or not) has trace amounts of rbGH/rBST since that is a protein found in ALL COWS. Not using antibiotics actually makes cows suffer MORE. & if recovery without medication seems unlikely, a dairy cow with a simple respiratory infection will be slaughtered for its meat, or sold to a traditional farm where she can get the medicine she needs.
Regular milk is pasteurized and has a shelf life of about 20 days. Organic milk is ultrapasteurized (which is more forgiving of poor quality milk) such that it has a shelf life of about 90 days. What? Your milk has an expiration date comparable to real milk? Your store is putting it out in that time frame so you’ll think it’s fresher than regular milk!
“Free range?” Not monitored, and the male chickens are still killed in the same ways. The range is a small enclosure, unable to fit more than a few chickens at a time. Most don’t get that time at all. Sorry, if you’re not into animals being treated cruelly, better to be a vegetarian. Organic and free range animals suffer as much, if not more, than on commercial farms.
Well surely organic produce is better, right? Nope. Organic production is far less efficient than modern methods, so organic farmers use more natural and man-made resources (i.e. land and fuel) to produce their crops. Not to mention that most organic products are flown in from other countries. Why hello there, carbon footprint!
Your best bet for the environment is to buy locally-grown or locally-produced. But don’t fool yourself into thinking that organic is healthier or better for animals or more environmentally friendly. You’ve just bought into the hype.
As for Hawken asking us to not ‘attempt to legislate’ supporting local and organic farmers: The large farmers DO legislate for their favor. This is why corn-based and soy-based products can be so cheap, because they are government-subsidized.
Why not subsidize small organic farmers instead if that is something our society agrees is important enough to subsidize?
“If showing our support for the environment is painless, are we really showing our support?”
The best way to support a cause is to make it easy for people who don’t care as much about the cause and won’t invest as much as you will.
It’s win-win, if you can pull it off: More people support your cause, even if you haven’t raised their actual concern. Since they can easily participate, the problem takes on a smaller size and they are more willing to care about it – since the problem now seems solvable. And you get the same ease or affordability that you’ve worked to bring to others.
Right now, affordable and convenient local produce is tough to come by. A site like LocalHarvest, however, helps people locate affordable local foods that often have convenient delivery. Pioneer Organics is a business that makes buying organic food easier and delivers (great for car-free living!), plus they clearly mark local foods as well.
And I think I’m going to try our old CSA again . . . thanks for the reminder, y’all!
Okay, so I hope I don’t sound like a jerk here, and I don’t want to discourage anyone who consumes responsibly. But I’m not sure that the best way to change the world is by changing our consumption patterns. I believe this thought may be a sad symptom of a world in which we believe that everything has to do with consumption. I think it probably has more to do with the way you treat people every day. Maybe shopping responsibly helps you support in a very indirect way the effort to make the world a better place, but you can support that effort more effectively by just being a decent, helpful person and being kind to other people you encounter in your daily life. I feel this is actually much more difficult and more important than changing what we buy, although I won’t criticize the genuinely good sentiments that are often behind this type of behavior.
As for Hawken asking us to not ‘attempt to legislate’ supporting local and organic farmers: The large farmers DO legislate for their favor. This is why corn-based and soy-based products can be so cheap, because they are government-subsidized.
There are organic corn and soybean farmers and there are eligible for the same support as non-organic. It is by crop and not method of production. BTW there are some organic farmers who are larger than non organic. Size does not determine method of production either.
Be self-actuating as opposed to regulated or morally mandated
Revisiting this post, it occurs to me that sometimes things must be morally mandated in our society. The proper treatment of the animals we eat, for instance.
If we simply rely on the companies to do right, it will never happen. We live in a Milton Friedman society, where corporations have been told for years and years by our most “free-market” leaders that their only responsibility is to earn money, regardless the harm they may cause. If we want corporations to do the right thing in this day and age, it MUST be mandated or it will not happen. We have seen this again and again over the last 8-10 years. Must we list the constant reminders? Start with Enron and work your way down…
My feeling is that you should have gone with the conventional California honey and not the organic Brazilian honey. CA practically local to OR. BUT, There was an interesting article in the New Yorker discussing the idea of carbon footprints and the problems trying to measure them. Relevant to this discussion were several scenarios (some involving Great Britain as I recall) where the carbon generated by local produce was actually greater than the carbon from imported produce, even from places as distant as New Zealand or Africa, because those more fertile lands require less carbon intensive farming. Similarly in New York city, the carbon footprint of wine from France is less than that from California.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_specter