I spent last week in St. Louis for the third-annual Financial Blogger Conference. In two short years, Fincon has grown into more than just a gathering of bloggers. The place was packed with 500 bloggers, authors, journalists, sponsores, and financial professionals.
Naturally, the workshops and main-stage speakers were outstanding. Our keynote speakers included Jean Chatzky, the financial editor for NBC's Today show, and Pat Flynn of Smart Passive Income. Many of your favorite finance bloggers shared their knowledge in smaller groups, with talks like “How I Made $300,000 in Two Years with an Autoresponder”, “How to Use WordPress Like a Ninja”, and “How to Connect with Extremely Successful People”.
This year, I didn't have a main-stage talk. Instead, I participated in a panel on making money from your blog. I joined Luke Landes from Consumerism Commentary, Toni Anderson from The Happy Housewife, and Andrea Deckard from Savings Lifestyle for a one-hour discussion of ads and affiliates and ebook sales. (I learned far more than I shared; I'm four years out-of-date on blog monetization!)
My main gig, though, was as emcee for the event. In July, I decided I was done with feeling scared when I spoke in public. I wanted practice. I contacted Fincon organizer Philip Taylor (from PT Money) to ask if he needed help. Could I act as moderator? “You bet!” he said. It was a win-win situation, taking pressure off of him and giving me a chance to improve my speaking abilities. I'm glad I did it.
Success Stories
As you can probably imagine, when you bring 500 finance nuts together for almost an entire week, there's a lot of talk about money.
This year, I conducted about a dozen interviews. I'm writing an ebook about what it takes to achieve Financial Independence (especially the early retirement variety), so I pulled aside anyone I knew who had already done so. I asked them to tell me their stories. Though the details differed, the overall themes of each story were remarkably similar. Let me tell you my favorite.
One morning, I met an attendee for breakfast. For our purposes, let's call him Bob. (I'm giving him an alias for reasons that will become apparent shortly.)
For the better part of an hour, Bob and I had a routine conversation about saving and investing. For a while, we became bag nerds, discussing our favorite backpacks and carry-on luggage. He and I are both obsessed with finding the ideal bag. (Have a favorite? Let me know! I'm always looking for a better one.)
After a while, Bob asked me about my current project. I told him I was writing an ebook about Financial Independence, and gently pried into his own situation. “Are you FI?” I asked. Bob paused for a moment.
“I guess it depends on how you define it,” he said.
“Right,” I said. “There are different degrees of financial independence. There's the independence you get when you're no longer a slave to debt. You achieve more freedom when you reach occupational independence. But what I'm really talking about is the type of financial freedom that would allow you to retire. You're about 45, like me. Could you retire right now?”
Bob thought about it some more. “Well,” he said. “I suppose I could, but it would mean giving up a little of my current lifestyle. I'm not willing to do that right now.”
“That's the situation I'm in,” I said. “I could retire if I wanted to scale back. I don't want to scale back. So, I'm semi-retired. I still work, but I do it on my terms, and I don't make a lot, which is fine. I don't need to make a lot. Just enough so that I don't draw on my savings.”
“Yeah,” said Bob. “Me too.”
Then he changed the subject. “How are you going to publish your ebook?” he asked.
“I have a friend who publishes and promotes these things,” I said. “Why? Have you published an ebook?”
Bob blushed a little, which I thought was odd. “Yeah,” he said. “I've published a lot of them. I do it through Amazon.”
“Is it profitable?” I asked.
Bob blushed a little more. “Uh, very,” he said. “But part of that is because of what I write about.”
“What do you write about?” I asked, but I already knew.
Bob, deep red by now, spilled the beans. “I write…certain stories for ladies,” he said. “They run maybe 6000 words and I charge $2.99 each on Amazon. I sell a lot of them. A lot of them. Whenever I want to buy something, I write another one. It takes me a night or two to write, and then I let my wife edit it. I publish it on Amazon under an assumed name, a woman's name.”
By this time, I was laughing at poor Bob. “That's awesome,” I said. “I'm always preaching that people need to make more money in order to better achieve their financial goals. Few people listen. You've found a fun way to do it.”
“Yeah,” he said. “It's helped me pay off my mortgage. It helps to pay for vacations. And if I keep at it, it'll help me retire early.”
Everyone Hates a Winner
I learned a lot at Fincon.
For instance, Mrs. Moneyseed told me about a curious phenomenon. It turns out that folks don't like to read about people who achieve early retirement. “A lot of people have a mindset that retirement means you turn 65, move to Florida, and play golf all day,” she told me. “When we talk about early retirement on the blog, they get defensive.”
Later, in a conversation with Derek (Free at 33) and Mandy Knight (Lemonade CEO), they said the same thing. Derek was homeless at eighteen and hooked on drugs. By 28, he was married, clean, and mortgage-free. In a few years, he'll have saved enough to retire.
“People don't like to hear that I've been successful,” Derek confided. “People want to hear how they can get rich, but they're resentful of others who have done it.” Mandy told me how they'd been profiled in a newspaper and received mostly negative responses — and over something that, objectively, would seem to be only positive.
Throughout the conference I heard similar stories.
Eventually it occurred to me that my colleagues and I love gathering together once every year largely because, if only for a few days, we're able to spend time with like-minded people who don't condemn us for scrimping and saving so we can retire before 50 (or 40 or 30).
Perhaps nobody takes more heat than my friend Pete, better known as Mr. Money Mustache. I wrote about the MMM philosophy last month after spending a week with Pete in Ecuador. Just as he does at his own site, Pete got raked over the coals in the comments at Get Rich Slowly. “I don't get it,” I told him last week. “I agree with everything you say. If people would listen, they'd get rich.” He just shrugged. He's used to the criticism by now.
Two years ago, I wrote about America's love-hate relationship with wealth:
Almost everyone who achieves financial success believes they've done so through justifiable means. They believe they've earned their money (or deserve it), and they don't feel guilty for having it. Too, we're generally supportive and appreciative of our friends who make it big. (I can think of a handful of folks I know who have managed to acquire wealth, and I'm proud of each of them.) But when it comes to strangers who are rich? Then our attitudes seem to change.
There's an underlying distrust of the rich in mainstream American society, which seems odd. Isn't that what most of us aspire to? We all want to be rich, yet we resent it when other people manage to achieve their financial goals. We complain that they had advantages that we didn't, or that they cheated, or that they don't deserve the money. But what if the same thing happened to us? What if we became rich? How would we feel about such judgment and criticism?
Two years later, I still don't understand it. Why tear down people who have achieved success? Why not learn from them? Instead of looking for the reasons their stories and methods wouldn't work for you, why not look for the elements that do apply to your life? One response is constructive; the other is destructive, both to you and another person.
Back to Work
I had a great time in St. Louis chatting with old friends and new. But I didn't get nearly enough sleep. (Only today, after four nights at home, am I starting to feel normal again.) I'll return next year, of course; I hope to land the emcee gig again!
In the meantime, it's back to work, writing about money. For the past month, I've been locked in my office, hard at work on my ebook about Financial Independence. I'm something like 30,000 words in (it's tough to know since the project is scattered across many documents) with my deadline fast approaching. It needs to be turned in by Halloween.
This book may be the best thing I've ever created. What started out as a straight money manual has morphed into something more. It's now a treatise on personal and financial freedom. This feels like the culmination of everything I've been reading and writing about for the past decade. It's my life work, my legacy project. I love it. I hope you will too. (But you'll have to wait until January to see it!)
Author: J.D. Roth
In 2006, J.D. founded Get Rich Slowly to document his quest to get out of debt. Over time, he learned how to save and how to invest. Today, he's managed to reach early retirement! He wants to help you master your money — and your life. No scams. No gimmicks. Just smart money advice to help you reach your goals.
Sounds like a great event.
I guess that’s what the great thing about FI blogs are. The ‘like minded people’ are already seeking out others who think the same, and will find you. Thus they all create their own community.
In the end, we can only solve things in our area of concern. The rest… well it doesn’t really matter. If someone gets jealous, or defensive, it says more about them then it does about you/us.
I’m frequently amused/dismayed at the backlash directed towards people who achieve their goals. Who better to learn from than the people who are doing it? We all have the ability to be awesome and achieve greatness, you just have to take that step through the fear to acknowledge that you deserve it.
Congrats on the book, I’m looking forward to reading it!
In Australia we call it the Tall Poppy Syndrome – “people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised”
Poppys have always been my favourite flower since childhood & the nick name my Mother gave me
Grow tall & be colourful I say!
Glad to see J.D. tackle this topic. I’m getting a little weary of people who see a great reader story and pick it apart because so-and-so had this or that advantage that they didn’t. (And I’ll cop to feeling like that sometimes myself!)
I think we all have a success story in us. Regardless of our circumstances, it’s up to us to stop making excuses and go make it happen.
I think a large part of that is a defensive mechanism. We need to find somethign that the individual had that we didn’t. Some little item to differentiate ourselves from them. This lets us say, “Of course they could, they had xyz”. If they were exactly like us, we would have to take a hard look in the mirror because there is only one conclussion why we aren’t FI like them. We made mistakes they didn’t. That is a very hard thing for anybody to admit to.
Seriously? I really thought that people who made it were very much respected and looked up to in the U.S.?! I thought the Dutch were the only whiners here. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down seems to be the motto of a lot of fellow Dutch people when it comes to having a shitload of money.
I’m looking forward to reading your book.
Is fincon also accessible for bloggers from abroad?
No…you just get taxed more and suddenly you’re the cause of all of the the “injustices” and problems. Hopefully we don’t become like France.
@Matt,
I wish I could ‘like’ your comment a thousand times. It is the absolute naked truth.
Oh, spare me. Every part of society gets blamed by another part.
Shall we talk about the “welfare queens” and the “43% are takers” and all the people who are poor because they’re lazy? Even when they’re working three jobs and raising a family? Yup, their laziness is bankrupting this country.
So you have to pay taxes. Cry me a river. If you don’t care about the kind of society you live in, move to Afghanistan and pay no taxes.
I just want to say to keep on keeping on to all of you. I agree, there is no one in my personal life that I could talk to about wanting to retire early – they don’t get it. I don’t have a single family or friend who even ‘gets’ why I’d want to do such a thing. My husband is even skeptical that we can but at least doesn’t undermine my efforts to get it done. I think in a few more years he’ll start drinking the koolaid when he sees how close we are by then.
For my part, I can’t understand why they are all not trying to achieve FI. I’m inspired by all of the blogs you just mentioned. Even if I don’t use every idea put forth right now, I think there is value to seeing how people got to their results.
“drink the koolaid”? No matter how positive you want your message to be you can’t use a phrase that carries such a negative connotation and expect to be taken seriously.
I really love my Kelty Redwing backpack. It’s great for quick 1-3 day soccer trips, but I’ve done 3weeks in Europe in the dead of winter with it too. It’s front loading, which I prefer. Lots of exterior and interior pockets for organization and comfortable shoulder straps and waist belt. I have the 2009 version, but a friend has the latest model and it’s pretty glorious.
Ooh. Tantalizing! I’ll have to find a store that carries it so I can test it out.
I need to do a post about my obsession with bags and backpacks at jdroth.com. (Also, the quest for the perfect jacket. Here in Oregon, most of us own a variety of jackets because we have such a wide range of weather.) It’ll have to wait, though, until I’m finished with the ebook. 😉
I don’t think people hate “winners” (whatever that means, really, it’s an odd concept)–only the preachy/self-proclaimed/self-righteous ones and their mutual admiration societies.
That happens to me with all manner of militant proselytizers, from the ones who tell me I’m a chicken murderer to the ones who tell me I’m going to hell unless I take their flier. You’re tolerant with me, I’m tolerant with you. You try to impose your moral superiority unto me, I’ll punch you in the teeth (metaphorically, of course).
So if someone comes to tell me “hey, look at me, I’m a winner, do as I say or you’re a loser” I’m going to be a little peeved.
Anyway, that’s the gist of it I suppose.
On a different note, the case of the $2.99 stories is pretty awesome! I should give that a try, ha ha ha.
Yeah, I’m with you, El Nerdo. My problem with a lot of the early retirement crowd is not that they retired early (or reached financial independence or however you want to hear it). It’s that they assume that that should be my priority too; if I don’t make it my priority, they’ve assumed I’ve failed; am a “complainypants”; or am bitter about their success. But I’m not . . . it’s just not how I, personally, want to live my life.
I think personal finance bloggers run into another problem, which is that their job is something that is relevant to literally everyone. I also love my job and am good at it, but it is a niche field so I internalized fairly quickly that nobody else is really interested in hearing about it. I share the odd anecdote that I think crosses over to a general audience,* but mostly I talk about other things. Conversely, literally everyone has to intersect with personal finance, so it’s easy to make it a general topic of conversation. That does not, however, mean most people are actually interested in it the way people who make a hobby of talking about it on the Internet are. So their disinterest is actually sometimes not bitterness or resentment – it’s just normal, healthy disinterest in a subject they don’t care about beyond what they need to get by in life.
* I’m probably usually wrong and people are like “oh my God, why are you telling me this.” Sorry, guys.
El Nerdo nailed it. In my experience, people (in general, though trolls will be trolls) do not hate success. People can be repulsed by successful people whose pride in that success is interpreted as smugness, those for whom success seems to have resulted in a “my way is the best way” style of communication. And you get a lot of that at conferences… and from those who use their success as an entry to teaching others to succeed. It makes sense — teach what you know — but so many of these successful creatures are poor communicators who can no longer sympathize with their audience. Thus, the message is lost in an aura of self-admiration.
I was thinking the same thing. It’s like someone who lost 300 pounds and now eats nothing but chicken and spinach and works out 7 hours a day to have 6 pack abs. Good for them and all but I’m not interested in that life and don’t want to be preached to about how it’s The Way.
A lot of early retirement folks talk about it like it’s a moral thing and the only sensible choice and that’s what’s really annoying.
Exactly! I don’t mind people who are financially independent (I plan to be one someday!) but I do mind when they have a superiority complex about it and act like people who aren’t as rich as them are only poor because they’re stupid. Also, people who are so wealthy they have no idea how the average person lives really can’t be giving out advice. Like telling college students, “Just borrow $20,000 from your parents and start your own business!” If I had $20,000 to give away, I would be starting my own business with it.
Why the heck would all you guys read blogs about financial independence if it’s not your goal? …Or weight loss stories for that matter? Somebody comes across as smug, I usually click the ‘Back’ button and get outta there before I get all indignant about it and leave a snide comment.
This reminds me of the recent Maria Kang story about the mom that’s a fitness trainer and everybody got all angry about her poster. Sure, it’s a bit over-the-top for many people, but the level of indignant yelling about it (and social media bullying of her) went beyond any initial social faux-pas that was committed.
http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/hot-mom-defends-herself-against-facebook-haters-192149769.html
This isn’t a financial independence blog . . . .
Thank you! I was going to post the same thing. Lots of people want to get out of debt, save money and retire while they’re young enough to enjoy it. That doesn’t mean we all want to become entrepreneurs or financial bloggers! Nor would society sustain that many of us.
Totally agree with you here, Edward. To quote George Lucas, there are two types of people out there, Creators and Destroyers. It is usually far easier to destroy something, someone, or some idea, than it is to actually create anything yourself. To put in the time, energy, thought, effort, etc to make it.
These destroyers are everywhere. Films, music, art, blogs, politics, etc, etc. Hell, even look at any Youtube video’s comments. If you put yourself out there as a blogger, youtuber, celebrity, or religious/vegetarian proselytizer, somebody will be there to bash you. There is always somebody trying to knock the person down a peg, doesn’t matter what the subject matter is. People are inherently lazy. They are consumers. And above all, everyone’s a critic.
So you didn’t like the band’s album, or that comedian’s sketch, or that filmmaker’s latest work? Why spend the time and energy being destructive? Why not try and make something yourself? Maybe make something better?
There’s a great little documentary called Heckler about this phenomena in the world of comedians and filmmakers (primarily). It’s available on Youtube.
One is either a creator or a destroyer? What ever happened to shades of grey? Hopefully these days they apply to more than just erotic fiction. Such thinking might work in a science fiction movie, but when applied to real life, it breaks down pretty easily. In my opinion, this kind of dualistic thinking is rather destructive and facile.
I saw some of the “hot mama” drama unfold on another site I read. My first thought was, “she looks great!” And, I wasn’t too uptight about it anyways since I’m still holding up pretty well after having two kids.
At the same time, I also realize that she’s a fitness instructor. If working out is your job, you really should look like that.
Thanks for the laugh! I just shake my head at ads which are meant to get people upset. The best thing people can do is ignore them. Instead, they get international media attention…
Me too on the Amazon stuff El Nerdo!
We could join up, write it together – our first one could be called “50 Shades of Red” – and our main love interest named Bob.
I’m not sure how long ago it is now that I had a reader story in here on semi-retirement. Everyone was incredibly nice in the comments. The only negative was the frustration that some felt that they couldn’t do the same due to health care which is totally understandable. I’ve been a single parent throughout my adult life and I used to feel a bit of resentment sometimes towards two parent families having it a bit easier in terms of saving, sharing expenses, more time… I don’t know, it kind of spurred me on to earn and save more and I always appreciated it when married people I encountered complimented me for doing as well with my kids etc. as I had.
Agree with everyone that there’s a difference between smug know it all vs “this is what worked for me”.
Funny that Ryan mentions comedians. I was thinking about them earlier today, especially in opposition to gurus.
Comedians are always pointing out what’s wrong about us. So do gurus. But unlike gurus, who need to appear infallible so that the converts don’t abandon them, comedians can (and do) make fun of themselves– all the time. This is the reason why some of my favorite contemporary thinkers are comedians– from George Carlin to Louis C.K., comedians make the best social critics. Gurus, on the other hand, tend to irk me– even gurus that have useful stuff like the Ayatollah Ramsey or Peter Pan Ferris.
This is also why some of my favorite PF writers are the ones who are not afraid to spill the beans on their errors and poke fun at themselves. They don’t speak from above, they are on equal footing with their readers. I loved Kristin Wong’s article yesterday because hey, her emergency plan is actually successful, but she doesn’t come to tell you how to have an awesome emergency plan through badassity and if you don’t have one you’re an imbecile.
The other huge thing, for me anyway, is that PF should be about finding good workable ideas, not about the cult of personality.
For example: I love Elizabeth Warren. One of the reasons I do is because she didn’t spend one single page of his book telling you how she was awesome and her system is infallible and you should be like her or else you’re an idiot. Instead she talks about the people she’s helped, real cases she’s dealt with, and how her system can work for you. She doesn’t demand your devoted loyalty or tell you about her latest communing with the dolphins. She just tells you what you need to solve your problems.
As for financial independence itself, here two examples: Jacob Fiskar and MMM. I see Jacob as the real brain behind the early retirement movement– the guy worked out the math, he set up some systems, he nerded up his analysis, and explained why he thought what he proposed was doable. Sure, he is an eccentric by some measure and had some non-mainstream politics, but reading him gives me the sense that he didn’t try to make it all about himself. Sure, he had to eventually get “out there”, but that’s what bugged him and that’s why he quit– he didn’t want to be a “personality.” We need more people like him.
On the other hand, MMM may have some great ideas, but I get the sense that first it’s all about him and his persona and his mustache, and while I understand much of it is done in jest, the focus is still on personality (me me me me me me me). So he’s a personality. And not everyone likes personalities. There are too many of them, and some of us are fed up with “personalities”. I don’t need any more “personalities” in my life.
Now, MMM is not a stupid guy, I like some of his ideas, like his lending club investments, or some of his analysis on waste, but I’m not interested/enamored/in awe of his personality or his mustache or his lifestyle or his funny salute or his missionary position (I mean, stance!)– really, I ‘m too old to worship heroes.
Where Jacob gives me the tools I need to work out my problems in a relatively self-effacing way, putting ideas ahead of persona, MMM gives me a big helping of personal preaching and the tools come only after, or he mixes both so thick I start to space out when I read him.
So, when I need a FI tool for my toolbox, the first thing I do is reread Jacob. Yes, he is in there too, personality and all, but it appears to me that with him ideas always come first, and that’s what makes him great, even if one doesn’t always agree with him.
ps- I almost forgot to quickly add Charlie Munger. He doesn’t tell you how he’s an incredible winner bazillionaire and you’re a loser if you’re not a bazillionaire like him; he instead gives you a long list of useful mental models to become a successful investor and he explains why. And he doesn’t ask for your approval. Now that’s truly badass.
Oh my god, best comment ever!
Don’t forget the YMoYL team! No hatred for them either.
Great El Nerdo comments as always. I agree 100%.
And one side comment: I’ve never noticed that the people who are always trying to find themselves by hanging with these gurus are any happier than the rest of us. Actually the reverse. Sure, there’s manic points like during the Domination summit, but those are balanced by emptiness. Early retirement doesn’t make everybody happier. Being rich doesn’t make everybody happier. Selling the next big lifestyle thing doesn’t bring happiness. Why would I want to listen to someone who says I have to do it his way (and it is always his way, with the sole exception of Martha Stewart’s way) if that’s just going to make me worse off than I am now?
I really liked the, “Do what works for you” mantra. It was authentic. The guru thing, not so much. If that makes me a hater, so be it. At least I’m not telling anybody else the one true way to live their lives (or you know, calling them haters).
I agree, but you have to understand a lot of what these “gurus” do is personal branding. MMM is very good at it. He’s kind of like the shock jock of the PF blogosphere. Like him or hate him, everyone knows who he is and talks about him. It’s marketing gold.
I hate to say it, but personality and personal branding are a lot of what helps PF bloggers gain a following. J.D. entered the PF blogosphere at a time when there weren’t many people doing what he did — now everyone and their dog has a personal finance blog! I think we’re going to see a lot more cult of personality in the future as people learn more about content marketing.
Thanks, El Nerdo – you nailed it in your comments!
THANK YOU.
Besides, this article is ridiculous. People don’t hate success. We worship it. We only want to listen to people who have been successful. We give them instant authority, instant respect.
I’m sure rich people get some push back when they tell their stories. Guess what? So do poor people. And middle class people. It’s called life – not everyone will respond to you the same way. My guess is that the negative reactions just stick more in these people’s memories.
Unless they’re bringing it on themselves – like MMM. It is so unbelievably disingenuous to say that we gave him a hard time on this blog because he’s successful. Excuse me???? What about all the articles that are full of nothing but congratulatory comments for the writers?? I guess they just don’t count, because we didn’t like JD’s buddy.
And then to have JD not only tout such a ridiculous claim, but to exacerbate it by adding “I agree! If they’d just listen, they’d be rich, too!” Which a) completely ignores what we were objecting to, and b) presumes that everyone’s life is just that easy!
I have to say I’m quite offended by this post.
El Nerdo – I think you would truly love Joshua Kennon’s blog, he’s a bit more entrepreneurial and although there’s a personality there (how can there not be?), it’s self-effacing. He even has a blog category entitled “mental models”. I thought I died and went to PF heaven when I found his site.
1000 times in agreement with 7 & 51/El Nerdo, 12/Katie, 14/Luke, 16/Sarah, and 29/Shari (and love 44/Jacq’s suggestion of “50 Shades of Red,” LOL!). I can’t add a single better word to what you’ve all said. I just want to let you know I’m jumping up and down screaming, “YES! YES! YES!”
@El Nerdo, I wish what you said were true. However, recently someone posted a reader’s story about how she and her spouse paid their enormous school debt and their mortgage (something like that), but felt weird about telling their friends. There were a lot of negative comments on this blog about they could only do it because they had a high income, etc., then a lot of posts about how others couldn’t do that because they didn’t make as much and would never make enough. The poster wasn’t being smug or saying anyone should be behave like her–it was just a success story. Given the comments, I totally understood why they didn’t want to tell their friends about being able to pay off the mortgage.
Pawprint, I can’t remember that article so I can’t tell how things went. But with what i wrote here I’m not denying the existence of resentment, which is a powerful force in human life, and is a huge subject on its own.
But just because resentment is real and some people will hate successful people just because of their success, it doesn’t follow that all criticism or opposition to PF bloggers is motivated by resentment. That’s both a narcissistic and delusional stance–a kind of “don’t hate me because I’m beautiful” blanket defense and a tyrannical demand for validation.
Agreed. There are some reader stories that come across as self-righteous and out of touch, but it seems any success story is fodder for complaints about how the poster was “lucky” somehow.
We’re all lucky somehow, and I’d wager we all have our fair share of challenges too!
Pawprint – I imagine you’re talking about “Our lightbulb moment”? I see your point, but I don’t agree. First off, the criticisms were mostly directly at the vagueness of the story. Secondly, it IS hard for the average American to understand how someone can pay off hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt in such a short amount of time. My guess is that this couple made at least three or four times more than the average American salary. You are asking a lot of people to just respond with “Rock on!” instead of pointing out the discrepancy between the poster’s economic situation and the reality of the vast majority of Americans.
I went back and looked at the post in consideration, and while you are correct that she was indeed not engaged in much persuasion, she did say at the end: “We truly believe that any one can become debt-free.” This may be true, but I don’t think it’s rude or mean-spirited to point out respectfully in the comments that it’s a lot harder for some people to become debt free (w/o mortgage) than others.
I’m asking this honestly – what criticism is acceptable and what isn’t? When GRS publishes a reader story, is the only acceptable comment, “Awesome! Thanks for sharing!! You are an inspiration!!”? If so, I will most certainly exit stage left.
It feels like JD is still missing the point: MMM wasn’t getting ripped on because of his success, he was getting ripped on because of his arrogance. The way it comes through in his writing, the disdainful way he treats dissenting comments, the way that he considers only his methods to be “the way” and that if you don’t follow them then you’re beneath him.
I think a lot of the “hatred” toward MMM and those who have achieved financial independence is in MMM’s own head. Read this straight from his own website:
“Mr. Money Mustache is a family man living in the United States who retired from work, relatively wealthy, at about age 30. After several years of retirement, he noticed that his still-working peers were envious of his lifestyle. They were making more money than he ever had, yet they were somehow still broke. So he decided to write this blog to educate the world on how it is done.”
I would love to go there too someday
Sounds like I need to get to a Fincon event sometime. I believe there is backlash against people who have achieved success because those people are frustrated with there own situations and don’t know how to do anything about it. I was a little bit that way until I got my financial act in order.
Ah, so your friend Bob is the author of all those dinosaur-themed “special interest” e-books we’ve been hearing about lately!
Oh man, I came to the comments to call that out too. I’m glad I’m not the only one guessing it!
I am equal parts intrigued and horrified by this. How did I miss such a major paleontological event?
I can understand that mindset. My whole blog is dedicated to financial independence but it’s tough taking advice from other FIers still. We all have our own ideas about the topic.
And if you haven’t read Your Money or Your Life, that’s some of the best info on FI I’ve read. Not just the pursuit of it, but creating a sustainable lifestyle. Good stuff!
Looking for something new to read, can you provide a link to one of the $2.99 stories?
JD, sounds like an awesome event. looking forward to reading the book.
Haters will remain haters. Sometimes, they could accomplish the same FI as the next guy, but they don’t want to do the work. Their time is spent at criticizing the guy who is proactively working toward FI. I am know people who barely have a constant income and their life style is so much more luxurious that mine o and i can save 40% of my income.
Let them hate while the rest of us who wants to achieve FI work. Our hard work will pay off and they will just keep hating.
I know this will never happen, but can we please retire the term “hater”? My eyes pretty much glaze over any time I see someone use who uses that term. It is so juvenile and has become an online catch phrase for pretty much anyone who doesn’t fall all over themselves in admiration or for commenters who dare to challenge the author’s views. It is dismissive, imprecise and overall just plain annoying.
I think in general J.D. is collapsing people who engage in nuanced criticism with trolls. The two are very different things. I rarely notice much trolling on GRS, so I’m not sure what the point of this article was on this blog. My take away from your conference is that personal finance bloggers are a sensitive bunch who thrive on compliments and bristle at questions or criticisms. It doesn’t surprise me, per se, but I would at least expect some degree of self-awareness. Instead, the article devolves into a more sophisticated version of Esther’s “haters will be haters.” I guess I bristle at the notion of placing all the blame for this disconnect on the “condemners” rather than recognizing that perhaps this is a two way street. Like El Nerdo so eloquently expressed, perhaps the message is delivered in such a way that encourages these negative responses.
One of the things that helps early retirees Iv’e found is to just say we are unemployed or a consultant. It helps deflect envy and might even gain sympathy.
The theme on my site is to be wealth but blend in. There’s also no point to look rich in the government’s eyes. That just invites more taxes and more scrutiny!
It was great to meet you at fincon J.D.! I think it’s the misery loves company thing. Those that struggle want to read about others who struggle so they don’t feel so alone. Instead of reading success stories and using that as inspiration, they feel jealous. Hey I occasionally feel that way. That’s a great story about Bob. It just goes to show you with some creativity and hard work, there are a million ways to make money!
I had so much fun at FinCon, and I was so happy to have met you. I have a fear of public speaking as well, but you seemed so natural as an emcee! That does seem like a good way to prepare for public speaking.
I am really looking forward to your book. We want financial independence and are working hard to achieve it. We sort of feel like we have achieved it by starting our own businesses, and this first taste of it has been great so far.
When we tell people about our plans and what we are currently doing, many people think that we are insane. I guess that’s just how it is. There will always be haters and people who think you are crazy, or just a liar.
I am also in search of the perfect bag. I’d love it if you would write a post on More Than Money about what you are currently using and why, and maybe any lessons learned…
Sounds like a great book. I don’t know why there are so many haters. I’m pretty lucky with my readers. Most have positive response and I can’t complain. Anytime I get public exposure, there are a lot of negativity though. I guess the general public likes to spout negative comments anonymously.
As a fellow blogger….I would love to see a future blog topic on here about creating an eBook. Seems like it would be a whole lot easier to make money by releasing one based off of an audience as large as this blog vs. a smaller one.
I think part of the issue is the current socio-political atmosphere in this country where the rich are vilified for having so much and that their wealth must be taxed to provide for the rest of society. It sounds like socialism to me, and socialism does not work in the long run. Eventually people will get lazy, stop working, and expect the government to provide for them. Of course if everybody did this, nobody would make any money to be taxed to pay for the freeloaders.
Oh, Jesus.
The current line of complaining about socialism is, yes, probably part of the problem. But not the way people complaining about socialism tend to think, I expect.
I think it takes only a few negative experiences with people who either tell others how they should live or complain bitterly about services to others who haven’t experienced financial independence to tar the whole movement with the same brush; when you add to that the guilt people fell internally for not being financially independent, they tend to get cranky.
Right now, there’s also a certain amount of resentment for people who live on ‘investments’– i.e. investing in the stock and bond markets– because while those markets’ crash ushered in the recession, they’ve rebounded while the non-financial world hasn’t yet.
Paul is exactly right. And the trouble is that most people are like Katie and the 45 people who gave her a thumbs up: Snarky, and condescending.
I hear more people griping on the internet griping about how “evil” the 1% is, and how they should be taxed into oblivion, without even considering that those 1% might be hardworking people who are trying to give back to the economy by investing, starting companies, and hiring people who are poor, such as myself.
Our nation is full of people now who want to not only bite the hand that feeds them, but to destroy it entirely.
The hand that feeds them, huh?
http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2
My favorite line was, “I’m sure that many of these wealthy people have worked very hard for their money, but do you really believe that the CEO is working 380x than his average employee?” Who cares what you believe? Go work harder/smarter and get what you want out of life. How does anyone else’s success or failure have anything to do with your own? No one is holding you down, unless you become successful, then you become the enemy 1%?
I think it’s funny that the narrator starts by quoting a survey of what a small sample of people thought/think/believe. It’s like when a European talk show asks Americans on the street questions that most 5th graders can answer. Wrong answer = haha all Americans are idiots.
@115
“How does anyone else’s success or failure have anything to do with your own?”
There is a strong correlation between nation’s “happiness” (health, satisfaction with life, life expectancy of the population) and distribution of wealth. Greater inequality leads to negative consequences for the nation as a whole, and, among other things, kills entrepreneurial spirit and social mobility – the very things you seem to be advocating as road to “you own” success.
Student Loans Worked Out, my views come from my personal experiences and if I am wrong, I’d like to know why so I can correct my internal compass. I hope you don’t take any of my arguments personally as they aren’t meant to be.
That said, you aren’t addressing anyone’s arguments. Not Paul’s/BD’s, “the rich are vilified for having so much.” Nor my argument, that the presence of financially successful people has no bearing on your own financial success. This blog, for example, is all about pulling yourself into financial independence/success.
I was interested when you said, “Greater inequality… among other things, kills entrepreneurial spirit and social mobility.” That was such a bold statement that I tried looking up evidence for it. I couldn’t find anything supporting that claim, but if it exists please link it. The closest thing that I’ve found was a 2011 study* that found “Only low-income participants–people whose income placed them in the bottom 40 percent of the entire U.S. population–reported reduced happiness in times of greater inequality. For other Americans, inequality was not reliably linked to greater happiness or unhappiness.” Again, how does anyone else’s success or failure have anything to do with your own (financial success)? It doesn’t, at least not in America.
*
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/does_inequality_make_us_unhappy
@117
It is laudable that you consider correcting your “internal” compass, but it is not my intention to engage in long educational posts, so I hope you’ll forgive the brevity of my reply. I do think that my remark about inequality and social mobility is relevant to this discussion, and in particular the comment about “hand that feeds them”.
As for the discussion and data about the connection between social mobility and income inequality (for example), why not google it? The search engine brings up plethora of data for your perusal. Again – forgive me if I do not want to search/summarize it for you. But – I do not want to.
A final note: a person who believes the rich (I am not talking folks with a couple million in the bank who reached their financial independence through hard work and smart investments – this is essentially middle class. I am talking the really rich, as in Walmart owners rich) is the hand that “feeds” the nation is delusional.
Please read BD’s post carefully. He was talking about the top 1% but you’re specifically talking about the top 0.00001%. Top 1% are households with incomes above $394k before taxes in 2012. That’s easily within the reach of a family lawyers, doctors, small business owners, or Google employees. While the owners of Walmart are by definition in the top 1%, to group them with small business owners and doctors is unfair.
You bring up “social mobility and income inequality,” but from everything that I’ve found on the google*, the solution involves, “improved access to education, better childhood nutrition and financial literacy, as well as individual initiative.” This has nothing to do with the top 1% or taxes**.
I’m not even sure what you’re talking about when you say, “folks with a couple million in the bank who reached their financial independence through hard work and smart investments — this is essentially middle class.” Some households in the top 1% could fit that definition but middle class?
Please don’t feel obligated to respond if you don’t want to. I wouldn’t want that. : )
* http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-08/gatsby-stays-on-farm-as-income-gap-limits-u-s-social-mobility.html
** http://blog.acton.org/archives/57857-why-social-mobility-matters-and-income-inequality-does-not.html
@119
Yes, I will not engage in a long discussion, although it may help clear misunderstandings etc, but I do not feel it’s worth it.
Let me just point out that the phrase you took an issue with in your comment “I’m sure that many of these wealthy people have worked very hard for their money, but do you really believe that the CEO is working 380x than his average employee?” clearly did not pertain to people earning 394k a year.
Also observe that BD started his post by endorsing Paul’s post (which was an anti-socialism rant, and had not a notion of 1%).
Please read BD’s post carefully. He was talking about the top 1% but you’re specifically talking about the top 0.00001%. Top 1% are households with incomes above $394k before taxes in 2012. That’s easily within the reach of a family lawyers, doctors, small business owners, or Google employees. While the owners of Walmart are by definition in the top 1%, to group them with small business owners and doctors is unfair.
You bring up “social mobility and income inequality,” but from everything that I’ve found on the google*, the solution involves, “improved access to education, better childhood nutrition and financial literacy, as well as individual initiative.” This has nothing to do with the top 1% or taxes**.
I’m not even sure what you’re talking about when you say, “folks with a couple million in the bank who reached their financial independence through hard work and smart investments — this is essentially middle class.” Some households in the top 1% could fit that definition but middle class?
Please don’t feel obligated to respond if you don’t want to. I wouldn’t want that. : )
* http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-08/gatsby-stays-on-farm-as-income-gap-limits-u-s-social-mobility.html
** http://blog.acton.org/archives/57857-why-social-mobility-matters-and-income-inequality-does-not.html
@119:
NB: a million in net worth (“in the bank”) is not the same as income of a million. One could achieve that net worth on much less that top 1% income, given some luck, of course.
Most of the time, success stories are interesting. Some of the time they are inspirational. If I ever have a problem with successful people, it usually has nothing to do with their journey to success. Instead, its generally people using their newfound platform to espouse their own personal ideas on topics unrelated to finance. The eat organic, be a vegetarian, dont watch tv, be ignorant(in the case of MMM, who is an interesting man but says some incredibly strange things sometimes), etc… type of ideas that have nothing to do with financial independence.
I dont mind reading those kinds of stories, as long as the author is willing to defend their ideas or recognize that its a personal decision.
I don’t think the backlash on this site to MMM had as much to do with his success as the strange cultish vibe surrounding his blog and followers. His (VERY lengthy) blog comments tend to be a disturbing collection of sycophantic back-patting and mustache-speak (not to be a complainy-pants!). I think his ideas are good and he generally means to be helpful, but a little dissent would probably even out his opinions a bit.
I agree. People flood his comments section with “Wow, so insightful!” and other such meaningless drivel within moments of it being posted.
Also, it doesnt help that MMM tends to delete any dissenting voice.
Exactly, nobody likes a person who acts like they are above criticism.
Derek Halpern’s last post was similar to this one.
He didn’t necessarily talk about people who “hated on” wealth, but success in general.
Being humble and wealthy is much different than being cocky, preachy, and wealthy.
So, I guess it’s all in the delivery, which immediately raises people’s defense.
If a post reads, “you, too, can be rich by doing [x,y,z],” it doesn’t consider all the other elements in another person’s life that restrains them from doing it.
It’s sage advice, I’m sure, BUT the audience is lost once they are offended.
For example, not everyone can write 6000 word books. Maybe they suck at writing or just can’t find the time.
Imagine if your friend went around saying, “you, too, can be wealthy if you just write a book per night?”
The solution, then, is to be humble. Haters will still exist, but I’d argue that the number of them will decrease.
What do you think?
I think what you’re saying is that the cookie cutter approach to FI doesn’t work for a lot, if not most people.
On most personal finance blogs even sometimes on GRS, the assumption is that you completed your undergraduate degree at 22, graduate degree at 26, obtained a well-paying job right after graduation, married by 30 to another high earner and have given birth to all of your children by 35, (though you’re better off childless, like JD) healthy, have a job that offers full 401K match and so on.
Though I don’t fall in any of the above categories except for the fact I don’t have children, I came here at the beginning of GRS to learn how to live a more frugal lifestyle and (hopefully) become financially independent with what I have.
I’ve come to the conclusion, not just on GRS but other sites, if you don’t have most of the items on the list above, its more of an uphill climb that someone who at least had a paved road. I don’t think many people who’ve achieved FI truly understand and I’ve never met anyone who had challenges excel financially except though sheer luck.
Totally agree with 50/Carla. I have debated trying a reader’s story that focused on outlining the outliers: what life situations make it easier to obtain FI with a little work vs. which ones impact the ability to reach FI. But I worry people would construe it as making excuses, when instead it should be seen as what makes it easier vs. harder.
I’ve noticed audiences tend to prefer two types of stories: 1) underdogs who made it big despite the challenges they face and 2) redemptive narratives where people dramatically changed their ways and paid off huge amounts of debt, etc. No one really wants to hear from people who had some luck, a lot of preparation and used the benefits they had to their best advantage.
It seems people love to poke holes in stories that aren’t quite so heroic.
Yes, Carla.
I have a post on my site that shows how I have a 50% savings rate BUT I also start with a disclaimer that it’s easy to have a 50% savings rate when you earn $100k per yer.
Some bloggers throw around the idea that everyone can save 50% of their income–this is just not true.
Imagine, if my bare expenses were $24,000 per year but I earned $48,000 per year–easy.
BUT, if my bare expenses were $24,000 per year but I earned $30,000–Not so easy. I would have to find a way to cut $9,000 of additional expenses.
Not everyone understands the value of a holistic view on life.
What I found out is, there are some people that just simply enjoy telling others that they are wrong. Those people are very opinionated and start their phrases with “No” .
I personally owe a lot of my life’s happiness to financial bloggers like you. Think about it. You teach us something Free of charge. Due to you guys, we were just fine when we relocated and had many financial ups and downs. Thanks to you guys, we can sleep good at night even if we have o income coming in sometimes. You guys thought us this lifestyle and guess what, this is how my grand parents lived and there is toning strange about it.
I love reading Luther’s success stories and learn from them. I personally admire the successful people.
Thank you for your writing and can’t wait for the book.
Paris.
I think people don’t like others that achieve success because it’s kinda a coping mechanism. If they can feel about about someone else’s success, then they won’t have to feel bad about themselves and the poor choices they’ve made.
As Pete tells everyone, just about anyone can get to FI if they’re willing to structure their life differently. Most people aren’t willing to take that leap, so they get angry at others who have!
This is kind of what I was saying above. Not structuring your life to achieve financial independence at a young age is not, inherently, a poor choice. Sometimes it’s just a choice. Of course people are going to be annoyed if they’re told that they structured their life badly just because their priorities are different than someone else’s.
Katie,
Good point – I like the way you put it better 🙂
I think the hate comes from people who are unwilling to live the same way that Pete (for example) did in order to achieve financial independence. We are mostly talkers, and we hate the doers, the ones who are our own age (or worse! younger!) who have done something extraordinary. It’s hard to look within to see how you can get better — it’s easy to leave a nasty comment on someone’s blog, telling them that they’re not actually retired unless they qualify for AARP and get a senior discount at Denny’s.
Wow this is interesting insight. I hadn’t ever considered a PI blogger’s perspective before. I guess if you have reached success, and are using your experience to generate income by telling other people how to do the same in some way, you’d have to run a very fine balance of using your story to sell the idea that you are ‘qualified’ to help others in some way to achieve their FI goals and not just be talking about yourself all the time. I guess it could seem like everyone just wants to know what you can do for them, instead of taking the time to listen to your story. I would certainly act that way (what can you do for me) if i was thinking of paying for services (even if it was a seminar, or a financial conference) from a person working in the Personal finance field.
As to this “Pete got raked over the coals in the comments at Get Rich Slowly. “I don’t get it,” I told him last week. “I agree with everything you say. If people would listen, they’d get rich.”” Perhaps you didn’t listen to what all the commenters were saying JD! A lot of people said that his delivery style isn’t a fit for them. Whereas GRS style of delivery does fit. It’s less of matter of what he’s saying and more a matter of how he says it. El Nerdo and several other commenters captured that thought really well (comments 7,11,13,15,25 etc).
Thanks for the new perspective. I guess we should all try to actively listen to each other. Interactions like that could perhaps be more fullfilling for all parties involved. (though I realize that the blogshere doesn’t lend itself to that very well, but it’s something to think about during personal interactions)
This is an insightful comment. One the one hand, J.D. and others expect their audience to be open to hearing their personal finance stories and be less critical; yet on the other hand, J.D. continues to be obtuse about the well-documented reasons why many people don’t enjoy Mr. Money Mustache. Pssst – it’s not because they don’t want to be rich. Indeed, it is like he didn’t listen at all to the last post on GRS. When authors or bloggers respond ungraciously to criticism or dismiss it as “trolling” or “complaining” they are not so subtly sending the following hypocritical message – I expect you to listen to me and really hear what I’m saying, but I won’t afford you the same courtesy.
Like I said in my comment above, communicating with the public is a two way street. And if the amount of articulate criticism you are receiving is high (and let’s face it – the GRS crowd is articulate!), then there’s probably something you could learn from it or internalize to improve yourself. If you’re not willing to learn from others, why should I listen to you? That’s the beauty of humility – it can make your message all that more powerful.
Jane,
I love this comment:
“If you’re not willing to learn from others, why should I listen to you? That’s the beauty of humility — it can make your message all that more powerful.”
Consider it used for my next status update, blog post, or tweet…if you don’t mind. 🙂
:). Glad it resonated, Romeo. Reproduce away!
Agreed. Think about it, would anyone today know the name Dale Carnegie if he had been someone who never listened to others? A large part of the advice in “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is about LISTENING to others.
I think sometimes it’s about nuance and presentation rather than just the idea that “everyone hates a winner”. (As a sidenote, this feels like a very pessimistic view of the world – I like to think most people are supportive or at the very least ambivalent toward others.)
There’s only so much of a person’s success story that can be presented in a single blog post. 700 – 2000 words is just not enough time to really understand the decades of thought and experience that shaped the author’s (or profile subject’s) story arch.
When only part of the story is seen, I can understand why people want to know more information and details about the HOW – because even if you don’t have the exact same goals, there might be many applicable lessons that you can learn. And maybe that’s the underlying cause of what’s being interpreted as “hatred”.
I guess I look at the example of Steven Chou, who posted his reader story on GRS last year.
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2012/12/09/reader-stories-why-giving-up-100000-a-year-was-the-right-choice/
His was a success story, and if you wanted more nuance, you needed to go to his website and start reading more of the details.
Some readers didn’t and that’s understandable, but Steven answered questions by politely engaging and directing readers to posts where he had already answered those questions.
Then at FinCon last weekend, he gave a talk in which he shared even more details of his business processes and addressed specific questions that audience members had as well. And even after all 3 of these interactions with his family’s story, I’m sure I still only know a fraction of it.
A collective desire to disregard backstory and nuance would seem to contribute to the attitudes that JD seemed to see (though we personally haven’t ever encountered such attitudes), but I guess maybe that’s a symptom of this era of “Twitterature” rather than literature.
Is the number of those who disagree or profess to “hate” the FIer’s success actually a large percentage?
I suggest that the percentage of actual “haters” is small and many bloggers, like most people, react strongly to negative comments versus replying to people already agreeing with them and end up trying to further explain their position. Then, because that’s where they spend additional time and energy, it inflates the recalled number and importance of the negative comments.
I don’t think it’s a hate so much as envy rearing it’s ugly head. From personal experience, I can say that I had envy of you, J.D., at first. You’d done a lot of the things with your blog that I wanted to be able to do with mine. You’d achieved that success, and continue to do so.
Somewhere along the way, though, I came to the realization that you and others that I was envious of were just regular people like me. Nothing special about you or them, except that they put in hard work and got stuff done.
Instead of envy, you and the others should be, as you are arguing, models of emulation. Envy is a negative energy. Emulation is a positive energy, and you’ll always get better results with positive energy.
P.S. if you’re looking for reviewers of the ebook when it comes out, I’d love to do so.
Add the not so subtle assumption threading many of these PF blogs that our choices are just naturally supposed to lead to our passion and happiness, and I can see where people can feel the envy.
Many of us make choices we have to live with that may or may not lead to happiness. Maybe an otherwise wonderful spouse isn’t on board with the frugal path you want, divorce? You just got the overseas job offer of a lifetime, the day after you’re parent has been diagnosed with cancer, take it? You’ve come to seek FI later in life and you’re in a high income job you can tolerate but would love to pursue that low income passion, kids approaching college and still other outstanding debt, make the change?
You can own your choices, but that doesn’t always make them palletable and often when we read about someone pursing a passion we would like or living a life we could have had or seems easier than what we’re dealing with that envy bug can come out and bite us.
I think I’m going to get carpal tunnel syndrome from refreshing this comment page throughout the afternoon…
Great post as always, J.D. But I’d sure love to know what the books are that “Bob” writes and publishes on Amazon!
Thanks for your perspective on FinCon 13 JD. I didn’t go this year but maybe the next one!
I do tend to agree that when it comes to a general audience, most reaction tends to lean negative on successful personal finance stories. More destructive comments full of “I didn’t have those circumstances, etc” rather than like you say, learning from the success of others.
I have an Osprey Talon that was great when I used to run/bike to the dojo. It’s got a mesh back so you don’t sweat too much and you can put a hydration bag in it.
It’s strange how some people don’t want to see “real” people who put in the work successful but yet make others famous for their reality TV lives.
For you bag search … http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/minaal/protravel-carry-on-travel-faster-happier-and-more
J.D.: Here is the best business travel bag…Red Oxx “Air Boss”, as referenced on onebag.com.
Bag idea:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/minaal/protravel-carry-on-travel-faster-happier-and-more
MMM is brilliant because he makes tens of thousands of dollars a MONTH and preaches frugal lifestyle of $40,000 a year or less to get people in. He’s laughing all the way to the bank and more bloggers should emulate his style of saying one thing but secretly so another.
I am certainly not resentful of those who retire early, I am resentful of the 1% who are goifing a living wage from average Americans.
I would love to be able to save enough to retire early on net 18k and a huge student lian debt.
Reading about a kid who oays off his ivy league education with his ivy league job really never helps.
Cheers
I have never heard the term bag nerd but my dad absolutely was one!! Love it. My dad was a golf pro and passed away almost 20 years. There are two things that I often wonder what he would have thought about them. One is all the amazing wheeled luggage available now and the other is Tiger Woods. One of my favorites from his bag collection is a leather backpack on wheels.
I think the moral of the story *here* is…don’t utter a mention of Pete or MMM at J.D.’s old GRS.
What I find interesting is that when a person pursues FI, the theme is “10 reasons I’ve chosen to be rich/FI.” Then once that is accomplished, the PF morphs into “10 reasons why I choose to live like I’m poor.” The funny thing is, they are the same thing. You’re living below your means to get rich/FI, then living below your means because your banked. Well, good for you, I say. It’s all going to your last years of life regardless, isn’t it? Nursing homes, health care, etc. It’s all gone regardless. Whether it’s personally banked and sold off or never banked and provided by society. Most of us here don’t have a trust fund to back our balances. Perhaps the smart ones live life to the fullest and save just enough.
I’m still thinking about Pawprint’s point about the particular reader story and Elizabeth’s complaint about how the comments to reader stories can be frustrating. It is true that people almost always chime in with complaints and “Yeah, buts”. I can certainly see how this is a problem and could originate in jealousy or resentment. One suggestion I would have to the powers that be is that they strongly encourage specificity in the stories. Like Romeo Jeremiah said, if you are forthright with your higher salary and admit that saving is easier for you, then this will stop a lot of the criticisms in their tracks.
But where is the line? Should we always praise success and avoid relating someone’s story to our own? That is essentially what is happening when someone voices a criticism.
What if Kim Kardashian and Kayne West came on here and posted a reader story, “How I paid for my Bentley….in cash.” Would that help to explain why people with lower incomes respond the way they do? Yes, this is an extreme example, but when a blogger is posting about how she paid off her mortgage and all her student loans in two years, for a person making the average American salary, it might as well be a discussion of a luxury car that costs more than their house. It is that far outside of their reality.
Another thing, I notice that commenters do tend to be more critical with reader stories promoting a blog. I imagine that might come from the sense that they are being sold a product and thus have a right to speak out about what they don’t like.
The very same thing is happening in Singapore as well, with the average citizen resenting the rich due to the huge disparity between the rich and the poor. I guess this happens in most developed countries, where people are presented with almost equal opportunities, yet only a handful are successful. It is easier to resent the successful ones than to look inwardly at themselves on what went wrong. I used to have the same kind of mentality and resent the rich. It is until I finanlly learnt to gain control of my financial life that I see accumulating wealth, early retirement and living a debt free life as something attainable. All we need is the right mindset and proper planning in our lives.
I think you’ve confused hating success stories with hating the story teller.
Take the guy who writes Free Money Finance vs Mr. Money Mustache. Both are unarguably successful.
FMF comes across as being an honest and good person. The kind of guy who would pull over and help you change a tire. Or invite the new guy over to his house for Thanksgiving because he knows that he’s lonely.
MMM comes across as being arrogant and condescending individual with a ‘my way is the only way’ attitude. From reading his posts I think he would laugh at someone who needed help changing a tire and probably throw stones at them because he doesn’t approve of cars. MMM wouldn’t invite anyone over unless they were were a complete adoring sycophant (just see his carefully cultivated echo-chamber of comments for examples).
It’s the personality that drives the dislike, not the success.
Thanks for the tip on Free Money Finance; I hadn’t heard of this one and am checking it out. I still occasionally look at MMM but I can’t/don’t want to change my lifestyle to match his so therefore most of his posts really aren’t relevant to me or usable in a constructive way.
I also need to check out El Nerdo’s recommendation of Jacob’s early retirement blog.
GRS does remain my favorite though.
There was a very popular minimalist blogger a couple of years ago when the recession just hit.
His voice on his blog was cool at first but then as his blog grew, he had an attitude of “I’m better than you” and he started saying he didn’t care if he offended anyone, people could unsubscribe to his blog if they didn’t like it.
He just had this very militant attitude, I just got turned off by it. I’ve read other minimalist blogs that aren’t snotty and to them it’s more like “this is what works for me…”
I was never a minimalist but I was into reading minimalism blogs awhile ago.
Some people in the PF blog world are like this as well, and I just can’t read them anymore. Other blogs like GRS are more reasonable.
Goodness, I remember him. Actually there were several who were like that and it put a bad taste in my mouth.
I have noticed that from certain commenters on other personal finance blogs and almost blogged about it myself. There are some that will write negative comments saying that of course the blogger could pay off all that debt they live somewhere that cost of living isn’t as expensive. The blogger worked hard to get to where they are at, they didn’t pay off the debt overnight. As someone else commented, we should look to their success as inspiration and guidance in helping us pay off our own debt!
Read the column and the replies with a great deal of interest, but there is one point everybody seems to miss. Not everybody has the talent to do this. Seriously. I know that is a blasphemous statement to make in this country, but some people have a definite talent for various things, and other people do not. I am a pretty good musician, but I’ve got a cousin with Grammys on his mantle, so I know the difference. I’ve got a degree in business, and a friend who has a successful business, and I see the difference between the two of us as well. Case in point. I read a magazine article that I thought was really interesting. I gave it to him – and within a year, he had used the information in that article to create several very lucrative opportunities for his company. That’s the difference between being a back-porch player and backing Dolly Parton. For some reason we’re okay with the idea that not everybody can be a great musician, but we refuse to admit that not everybody has the talent for this money thing. Yes, you can teach the concepts, but there are people who grab that information and run with it and people who don’t. Not because they’re lazy or unwilling, but because they just don’t have that spark that puts them on the Grammy-winning level.
This “hating” stuff. You’ve been reading too much Ayn Rand and it’s made you paranoid. It’s not your success that’s annoying people. It’s the attitude that too often accompanies it. Do you really believe that everybody has the same IQ, the same skill set, and the same opportunities? That’s what the “Yes but” people are trying to tell you. You would not expect somebody who’s been struggling to play the banjo for years, has a cheap instrument and arthritis in their hands, to appreciate it a bit if my cousin told them “I practice 2 hours a day. Just do that and you’ll play like I do in 3 years.” You’d think he was a jerk. So why do you expect anything different just because the the topic is money? You’ve got a talent for money. Have the decency to be grateful and realize how easily it could have been for underwater basket-weaving.
Armand, this is an excellent, excellent perspective. Thanks for sharing it! I think you’re giving El Nerdo a run for his money for “best comment ever”. 😀
I wonder if some of the issue is that FI people become a bit “out of touch” with most other folks and struggle to communicate in a way that others can connect with. They experience the world from another perspective simply because their circumstances are different.
My husband and I lived like we were poor during the first years of our marriage and paid off our mortgage in just over 5 years. It’s a small house and we don’t drive fancy cars or have kids(yet), so it was achievable for us without a high income.
At first I was excited to read the recent post from the woman who also paid off her house early, but the comments made me wince. They weren’t unduly harsh, but I felt unsettled. Upon reflection, I think it was less of an issue of people being critical than it was of not being able to easily relate to the story.
JD, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that your blog became popular when you were in the figuring things out phase of your life. Now that you’ve matured in your financial situation, this blog stays fresh and accessible due to new voices like are more like the “old you.”
It’s interesting reading this here, with J.D. being the author. It seems from my view that J.D. took a very gradual approach and over the years, has transformed to feel more like MMM. As time has gone on, J.D. has clearly changed his views and doesn’t even enjoy the things he used to treasure–which is fine. We all change and we NEED to change, but it’s human nature to not like dramatic change.
Reading many success stories is wonderful, but often, I am reading success stories that if I tried to apply, would mean dramatic changes for me. There was a point where I could afford so little, so I loved being able to finally afford the hobbies I enjoyed. Now, I’m shifting to being more thrifty, but it’s gradual. I can be rubbed wrong by people who suggest dramatic change is the only way to go. I dislike it when people suggest their way is the only way or is the best way, as if people were widgets and one size fits all. We each have different goals, desires, experiences. I wonder if that experience that J.D. got the conference is because people were being misperceived–on both ends.
To me, I strive for balance. I’m not sure if I would ever make a good retiree–I get purpose out of work. But I also am striving to be better financially.
It seems that PF blogs are either describing how to make your own detergent and tooth paste OR that you need to follow the teachings of a guru and be retired by 30. Very little middle ground. (Or perhaps I just haven’t found those blogs.) If we are going to be honest for a moment, most people (including me) are never going to get rich by starting a blog or writing stories for Amazon. So the “you can do it too!” meme doesn’t really ring true. I’m not really pushing back against the post, just giving my thoughts on why a lot of people do.
My thoughts exactly.
PF blogs are really about feelings. They entertain us on a long road full of mostly boring decisions.
When I was a kid, my teachers explained that a good story needs to have a problem. Characters, setting, and dialog aren’t enough.
Success stories feel like a novel where nothing really bad happens to anybody and everybody works hard until the story finally ends. If the hard work is enough to provide a plot, it becomes a a triumph over adversity story. If author needs to find something within himself to succeed, it is a redemption story.
Re the book project…
If this site was started around 2006, then sold in 2009, whereupon you, JD, were suddenly FI – I would feel that I wouldn’t glean as much knowledge about FI and how to get there as I would from someone who had taken the slower path that I (and most people) have taken or are taking. And with more common factors like children for example and balancing FI with kids is a little complicated but most or many people have them. Let’s face it, it’s a long, long journey for most and sometimes it’s hard to keep your enthusiasm up and keep yourself disciplined. And sometimes it’s one step forward, two steps back due to life happening. So hopefully, you have more common/relatable scenarios in there – you can read all about different approaches on the early-retirement.org forum.
I also like the perspective of people who reach somewhat basic needs FI and then continue to work and downshift etc. to be able to upgrade their lifestyle or quality of life (like Joshua Kennon talks about on his site and how I did it) vs. people who just love being super-frugal for its own sake (like MMM and ERE) as some kind of personal challenge. There’s something to be said for the “live like nobody else so that you can live like nobody else” philosophy vs “live like nobody else so you can hoard a lot of money”. I absolutely love this stage of having the basic needs and wants covered and working for some pretty awesome extras. You really don’t mind working so much if you’re working to pay for fun.
Re: carry-on bags, I love the Osprey Porter. Recommended by a friend who also loves it. No wheels, so that never takes up space in the back or hits your back. The straps are comfortable. The bag is quite roomy — mostly just one big pocket with a roomy top pocket for those liquids (easy access in security) and a flat top pocket that can fit documents and maybe a jacket if needed. The bag has flaps with clips that cover the zipper, so it would be challenging for someone to open your bag without you knowing about it.
Overall, really happy with the bag. No joke — my husband tries to claim it when we fly. We might need to pick up another one for our next big trip.
Re: your MMM comment, JD, I don’t think that’s the issue. I actually think MMM has a lot of solid advice but his often tactless approach and gross over simplification of people’s lives is what puts a sour taste in my mouth.
His response to criticism is equally cryptic by calling dissenters “complainypants” or simply not posting most of the negative comments. I have no problem with anyone who wants to seek a simpler existence and as such minimize their financial footprint. However, the reality is the economic world would not function if everyone wanted to quit their day job by 30. Frankly, many of us are not cut out to spend our lives in such a way and to insult financially stable professionals who may “only” be saving 30-40% of their income instead of 50-75%. Try telling the single mom making 30-40k to suck it up and save 75% of her income – it’s simply not going to happen.
As others have said, it’s not that many of us disagree with everything he has to say, it’s that his Internet persona gets old and the cult like following really limits conversation.
Perhaps all this criticism has something to do with the fact that people save and retire early don’t adhere to the common notion of retirement. Like Mrs.Moneyseed said, retirement is something that is ‘supposed’ to come at 65, not at 30 or 40. Also, there is the fact that not everybody has the strength of will to save so scrupulously for them to even consider retirement. Perhaps they’re just jealous?
Resentment and shame. Those are the simple answers as to why people try to cut down those that are most successful than they are. People resent other people’s success because they have to look into the mirror and realize they did not make the same choices, sacrifices that others made to make it to where they are at this time. Shame again because they have to take stock and they did not have the fortitude, will, education to make those same choices to give them what this person who they hardly know “has over them”.
It also depends on the messenger. If the messenger just goes about their day, doesn’t grab you by the throat and force feed you their “wares”, then all is good. If someone wants to tell me the reason they are successful when I didn’t ask, or wants to claim religious enlightenment as the reason, then again, the messenger is killing the message. This is where trolls, people who think they know every situation, etc. come into play.
Every person has a different deck of cards dealt to them in their limited number of trips around the sun. If you have situation X, and do Y, you can have positive outcome Z. For any situation, X, Y, Z are on a moving scale. That is the power of Personal Finance blogs. You can see those situations, and see what worked for others, and what didn’t and it if it will apply to your situation. That is why I am subscribed to many and read them. 95% of the information I know or doesn’t apply to me, but the other 5% can come in if I put those words into action.
It all depends on the people. You can’t control peoples’ thoughts. I love MMM’s writing. Yes, he can be a little arrogant, but it’s not like he’s being selfish and hoarding knowledge. He openly shares his story and how he got there. I like his openness.
There are always people who are going to be jealous of success.
But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t keep trying. I actually found the ‘ladies stories’ story quite interesting – whilst it’s not something I would do myself, I wouldn’t have a problem with someone who achieved success in a way which wasn’t immoral or illegal (certainly, many of the crooks running large companies are more morally reprehensible!)
Heck with this finance stuff, tell me more about the dirty books. *leers*
Do you think it is possible that people get ugly and resentful hearing about how other people got rich because they feel underneath that somehow the system isn’t fair? Or maybe that they don’t want to have to do the hard work that is necessary to get there?
Or maybe a little bit of both.