The guilt of wealth

I wonder if there’s more than guilt going on — maybe there’s also a continuing fear, especially when we look around and see that there are so many people who aren’t in as good a place, and there are disasters etc that aren’t in one’s control.
But I do think that establishing a committment to generosity does go a long way toward assuaging the guilt aspect. My husband has less guilt about spending money on himself than I do, and I think that one reason is that he is extremely generous; he has established several scholarships that are awarded on the basis of need, not “merit” and he donates regularly to a number of organizations he has decided to support (he’s also a regular blood donor). He makes a number of donations right away every January — and having done that, he seems able to not feel guilty about spending on himself and on us later in the year.
On the other hand, it may be that these feelings are a part of what it means to adopt simplicity — you just won’t get the same thrill from consumption anymore…

I don’t feel any guilt – though I do feel incredibly fortunate – but I do feel like I want to *help* family members and close friends who haven’t been as fortunate. I have to really hold back from offering financial help as I’ve heard that can really complicate relationships.

First/Second stage of PF: DENIAL of wealth. People who racked up more in material riches on credit cards and mortgage notes, than most human beings have seen over a lifetime, but still think they’re broke, and are never satisfied. People who complain about how bad they have it, while they’re filling the gas tank of their family automobile, dragging a couple spoiled rugrats home from soccer practice to their aircon McMansion.

Third stage of PF: GUILTY of wealth. People who write checks to Save The Children foundations, boycott stuff made in sweatshops in Bangladesh, and start charity foundations for single mothers. Result: people in Bangladesh are unemployed and starving, single mothers never learn job skills and stay on the public dole until they bite the dust, and Africa forgets how agriculture is done, while local farmers starve to death because they cannot compete with free food shipped in by rich countries.

Fourth stage of PF: ACCEPTANCE of wealth. The best way to help the world is to put people to work, and increase global standard of living. Invest your wealth in the tools to enable all of our brothers and sisters on the planet to become better off. This will return as much money back to you as it helps individuals across the world, as they enter the global middle class of the 21’st century, and realize their own dreams. People who use their wealth to invest in a better future for the world, by starting new industries, driving innovation to increase wealth worldwide, or by solving bigger picture problems. Examples: Bill Gates, Warren Buffett.

J.D.,

I think it becomes difficult to justify living in relative luxury when there are so many people struggling in the world. Sure, some are struggling because of their own poor decisions, but many don’t have the opportunities to succeed like we do in America.

The natural tendency of anyone who’s got their finances under control and learned that life isn’t all about them is to wonder how they can help others get to the point where their needs are met and their finances are under control.

I don’t, however, think it’s as cut and dry as Frugal Bachelor (#6) makes it out to be in terms of how we should help those in need. There is a place for immediate relief (the free food shipped in by rich countries) and there’s a place for developing the skills and local economy of those in need. Guilt shouldn’t prompt you to give for either type of cause. Love should be the reason for the gift.

There’s much more to life than wealth and enjoying luxury. Once you learn that truth, it becomes difficult to look at those who are truly poor and justify all the money we spend on our wants. I like the saying, “Live simply, so others can simply live.”

I actually do feel a little bit guilty sometimes, knowing that I’m taking advantage of a society that doesn’t value the work of (for example) Southeast Asian factory workers the same as it does those in America (do the exact same work and you’ll get paid more for it here), when I’m the direct beneficiary of that inequity.

But I also don’t feel like it’s my duty to fix all the injustices in the world. I live with them like anyone else does — some work in my favor, some work against me. Admittedly, for someone in my position, more are working for me than against me, so this probably makes it easier for me to be OK with it.

But the world is not a fair place. It has never been and never will be a fair place. Feeling guilty about my place in in seems a bit like the fastest wildebeest feeling guilty that the slowest wildebeest got eaten by lions instead of him. Maybe he should be thankful for his natural running ability, but that doesn’t mean he needs to go get eaten by lions to make the world more fair. That idea seems absurd to me.

Maybe I don’t feel guilty because I don’t believe that everything should always be fair. Sports and trials? Sure, they should be fair. But I don’t begrudge Prince Charles for being born into the royal family of England. I don’t feel that either he should have to give that position up, or he should have to share it with me, even though maybe that would be “fairer”.

So that’s my perspective, although it offers little advice, because my perspective is different from yours.

And I actually think the increasingly global economy will fix the inequality I mentioned at the top. American wages will come down as “third world” wages rise to meet them. Eventually, with commerce and shipping as easy as they are now and getting even easier, all these things will equalize, and you’ll get paid the same to assemble laptop computers in China as in California. Great news for the Chinese, not so great for Americans.

One more thought: Sites like this are constantly discouraging us from “keeping up with the Jonses” so to speak. At what point do you reach a minimum standard of living, above which, you’re just trying to “keep up with the Jonses”? Even if, in this case, that’s J.D. Jones?

Does your brother really *need* more? Sure, he may not have a mini cooper, but he’s got a warm home, a caring family, and his health, doesn’t he? I have never read you give any advice on this blog that says “you need more than what you are living with right now”, have I? We decry lifestyle inflation and excess material possessions, but when we ourselves are able to achieve those things, we suddenly feel bad for all those who can’t? Seems a little bit contradictory.

I very much identify with this article, although I am in an admitedly VERY different place than J.D. right now. Believe it or not, my husband and I are both unemployed right now (him through getting laid off; me through choice), and I feel a weird “wealth” guilt because unlike many other unemployed people in our region (metro Detroit), we are NOT having financial difficulties.

Let me explain a bit more: this summer my husband was laid off from his auto-industry job when I was in the process of switching jobs. We then had to make the difficult (to us) decision of whether I should 1) accept my newly-offered teaching job (I had already resigned from my previous job), which would require a long-term commitment to living in our area, which would probably mean that my husband wouldn’t be able to find a job in his field (again, metro Detroit), or 2) decline my teaching job, which would leave both of us unemployed but would give us the ability to move to anywhere in the country immediately once my husband found a job. I’m sure that many people would’ve have chosen option 1 in a heartbeat, but we actually ended up choosing option 2. Why? First, we aren’t particularly tied to this region and had been discussing moving anyway. Secondly, we are newly-weds who didn’t want to wind up in a long distance relationship, even if only for part of a year. Third, we live frugal lives, and knew that we could rely on our substantial emergency funds that both of us had wisely & independently built up before getting married. Because of these factors, we decided on option #2 — leaving us both unemployed.

We made that decision several months ago, hoping that my husband would be able to find a job relatively quickly. But today, we’re both still unemployed…and we’re actually doing just fine (I feel thankful, but also strangely guilty, to say that!). We’ve found yet more ways to be frugal (only using/insuring one of our cars, meal planning & creating a grocery price book to follow grocery sales, and getting our “entertainment” completely free through bike rides & walks outside or from borrowing books & movies from our library, etc.). And we’ve started selling some of our old stuff on ebay or craislist to make some “extra” money in addition to my husband’s unemployment benefits. Due to all of these decisions, we’ve just barely dipped into our emergency funds — leaving plenty of money left in case we need it!

While I am proud that we had chosen to save for those emergency funds and live frugally, I still feel a pang of guilt that we’re doing fine. I mean, we’re both unemployed; shouldn’t we be poor? Basically, I feel guilty for actually being able to afford unemployment! And there are so many people struggling in the metro Detroit area that I do feel a pang of guilt for being so financially blessed in comparison. Our hearts reach out to those in desparate situations, who aren’t there by choice and who are struggling to cover their expenses and face constraints in their job searches. Many of these people are tied to mortgages or have kids to support; my husband and I do not have these responsibilities and are free to move wherever, whenever.

I think that this experience has made me appreciate so much more the advice that J.D. and others emphasize: build up a substantial emergency fund. In our case, it is allowing us the freedom to actually make choices in such a distressing economy. We will have to face the consequences of our risky decision, but we both have high levels of education and are confident that a good opportunity will come our way sooner or later. Thankfully my husband is seeing an increase in job interviews and we’re hopeful that something will come through soon. In the meantime we’re surveying the job markets, applying to positions, enjoying life as newly-weds, counting our blessings, and trying to not feel too guilty about our “fortunate” situation.

Thanks, J.D., for another intriguing post!!

When I bought my Acura (with cash) a few years back I’m not sure if I felt guilt or felt I was being extravagant. I’m thinking it may be the latter since I knew I could make do with a Honda or Toyota, but I had to have a little extra luxury. Now when I shop for cars (I’m still driving my Acura) I know I have the cash for a Mercedes or BMW, but I can’t bring myself to get it – mainly because I see it as overkill when I know an Acura would do just fine – LOL! I’m by no means wealthy, but I’m doing well. I just find it is easier not to talk about money with others unless I’m sure they are in a similar position to me. I need to make sure I’m the same person I was before I had extra money. If other people perceive me as different and I know I am not I’ll know it is their problem and not mine.

I can’t relate at all, but I loved this post. I’m still working my way out of debt, but hopefully I’ll be prepared for what will come when I finally get to the wealth building stage. It’s amazing how many challenges money introduces into our lives- both positive and negative.

Great post. Having counseled thousands,the guilt is common. I am not sure why, when we have done all we can do, that we sometimes feel as if it is not enough.

I do think however, this is guilt best kept to yourself. Not showing excitement,and appreciation for the new purchases will definitely be felt by your spouse and hurt feelings and resentment may soon follow.

Keeping a diary and recording the things you do to help others can make those things seem more real. We all try to “help others” but recording how will confirm it.

This is not a very discussed topic – my whole blog (MoneyChangesTHings) started off as a meditation on just this question – what is money for? but I found very few people with money who were open to discussing it; it is said that people are more comfortable discussing their sex life than their checkbooks. There are several books on the challenges of inherited wealth, but you’re talking about simply having a modest surplus, not vast wealth. Where does the guilt come from? To some extent, it is related to acknowledging how incredibly lucky and fortunate we are – born in a country with education, sanitation, sufficient food, infrastructure for electricity/fuel/ etc. two billion people on Planet Earth do not share these privileges. As you point out, they work hard, but so much less productively.
Once you have enough to accumulate a surplus, you can – of course – keep escalating your life style, but there’s evidence that this does not make you any happier, as your friend with the fancy car observes. In his case, it seems to have actually had the reverse effect. So you need to set guidelines for yourself – what is that surplus for? SOme people just keep on investing it, thinking that the point is to generate an even larger surplus, for the proverbial rainy day, and to leave to heirs, or just to have a balance sheet they can admire. I have challenged myself to donate 10% of annual income to charities- some gifts are significant, some are small – but all help others in some way. I also invest 1-2% of my assets in ways that directly improve our world. My favorite is http://www.microplace.org where you get a direct return (2-6%) for investing in microfinance! Now that’s a win-win. I would devote a larger per cent of my assets this way (community investing, for example) if my husband weren’t 10 times more conservative than I am! One thing that I am learning more about – how much farther finances go in alleviating poverty in the third world than in the US. It’s nice to send a kid’s friend to soccer camp – but for the same amount of subsidy, you could feed and educate an orphan in the third world for a whole year and think of the impact on that kid’s whole life!

Hey Angie (#21),
I was just talking about scholarships- not financial aid. I definitely think financial aid should be need-based, because of all the reasons you mention. Scholarships are different- those were historically given out for specific achievements, but I feel like they have moved away from merit based and toward need based.

Also, in the case that parents pay for college, parents who have saved are actually penalized for having saved. Of course, if the child is responsible for paying, that’s another story– but I think a lot of parents do pay, and I have literally heard people going out and buying new furniture or refrigerators before putting in their aid applications so it would look like they have less money.

Certainly, people are poor either because they had bad luck through absolutely no fault of their own, or made bad choices, or both. But I guess I feel like being rich is more likely to be the result of good choices- if only because if you come into a large sum of money through sheer good luck, and make bad choices, it will soon be gone.

“Live simply, so others may simply live”, is a
platitude, I think. I am well off, and VERY
appreciative, but I don’t think I feel particularly
guilty. I DO often wonder WHY I’ve been so lucky…..
Btw, I like the saying “Reduce, reuse, recycle” a lot
better.

I’m in a weird situation of having double-ended guilt. After seven years between jobs, I finally have a part-time low-income gig (it’s a start) that’s nowhere near my skill level. I have a Bachelor’s degree in a field that’s a tad dormant at present so jobs have been scarce. I’m blessed to have this job at all.

But because of the layoffs and other complex circumstances, I found myself broke and impoverished for the first time in my life.

Ironically, I also became the owner of three properties without the money to support them: one was my own home, and two were inherited. Thankfully, one has sold; the other will soon be on the market (I only need one, right?) I also inherited a cream-puff Buick luxury car with hardly any miles on it. Totally not my style, but… it’s newer and runs well, so who’s arguing?

But during my three-year period of being house-rich and cash-poor, I felt very strange claiming abject poverty while driving around town in a luxury car, living in a NICE neighborhood, and having all the appearances of being “OK” financially.

I felt guilty asking for assistance, because I had plenty of non-monetary stuff that “real” (perhaps “chronically” is a better word) poor people didn’t have–therefore I didn’t feel I really deserved public assistance, even for a short time (because, of course, my poverty was a temporary visit, not a permanent condition).

OTOH, I felt guilty for having stuff, because I hadn’t worked for it myself, therefore I hadn’t “earned” it. And with a college degree, I don’t feel like I “should” be applying for jobs that might be the only option for those without degrees. Then again, I have to eat, too, and food costs the same at the market whether you’re paying with cash, credit or stamps, right?

I’m not sure how I’m dealing with it, as I’m still working that out! But I’m finally on better ground financially, and I’m aiming to be earning on the same level as I look like I’m living.

J.D.,

Unless we’re talking about international-level banking, I do not feel that wealth is a zero-sum game. In other words, your financial winning does not automatically mean that someone else like your little brother is doomed to financial losing. That opportunity is still there for him. Perhaps some of the guilt comes from a mistaken underlying view of wealth as zero sum, when on the scale of individual households, I don’t think it is. The suggestion to donate to microfinance charities is interesting because it allows you to use your wealth in a way that gives the opportunity to another household to achieve the same goal. Win-Win, not Win-Lose!

I assuage the guilt by donating both time and money to various charities. I help build playgrounds, renovate low-income housing, organize toy drives, etc. Also, since I’m a big proponent of education and helping people help themselves, I do lectures at a local college on personal finance. And when individuals manage to wear me down, I’ll do one-on-one counseling…which can sometimes drive me batty because some people are only interested in get-rich-quick schemes.

My parents immigrated from Europe in 1953 with not too much more than some suit cases of clothes, as many immigrants did at that time. We lived in rural Southern Alberta on a small farm where we grew our own veggies and raised our own livestock. I remember spending summers shelling peas, shucking corn, canning, freezing, baking, etc, etc. We threw very little away and recycled all kinds of things. I don’t know specifics but I’ve got a pretty good idea of what my parents’ net worth is now and I’m seriously amazed. They saved and lived very simply all of their life so they could retire and take it easy.

But… habits, good or bad, are hard to break. My parents still live a very simple life. Even though they’ve amassed this huge next egg, they still don’t even spend the pensions they get each month. They are still saving, without even trying. My mom’s been wanting to spend money more freely but my dad doesn’t. After a lifetime of frugality, he has such a hard time loosening the purse strings. (This has caused more than a few arguments between them.) They are in their 80’s now and their health is good but they will never enjoy retirement as we hoped they would.

I guess my point is that we’re trying hard to form good financial habits and be frugal but you also have to learn to enjoy what you have before it’s too late. I’ll probably get a nice inheritance one day and I could certainly use it but I would much, much rather have seen my parents enjoy their retirement more than they have been. I’m finally figuring things out on my own and I’ve come to understand that it takes awareness and time to manage money wisely and struggling is part of the journey that I can’t skip.

But, I’m still going to enjoy a latte, once in a while. And when I have one, boy, does it ever taste good…

Your blog, following it, was actually incredibly helpful to me in climbing out of debt. “I have no words but thanks, and thanks, and ever thanks…”

On the other hand, I was recently fortunate enough to be able to offer a room to a friend of my daughter’s whose parents were unable to offer housing due to their own homelessness (I already house and board a college friend of mine who makes less than she spends on transport to and from her work as a server in a diner… thanks, Mr. Pink!) When filling out paperwork for my daughter’s friend to get into the local education system yesterday, I was required to divulge my total assets, and now my kid is furious with me because I am not buying a new winter wardrobe for her friend, citing my indicated preference to work until I drop in the traces and saying she would rather see people clothed adequtely than go to college and isn’t her college fund hers anyhow?

A talk is in order, I think.

Hi J.D.,

I don’t doubt you feel some guilt about the status of others, but as previous commentators have said you probably feel some uncertainty, too.

I wonder if the uncertainty isn’t so much that it could all be taken away from you, but about who you are now you have this money?

More than most, you have identified your personal life with your financial well-being. You have contributed an outstanding blog to the field of personal finance, based on your journey out of debt and into financial security.

In recent posts you have been making the transition to living with wealth. That’s logical and sensible I think — better than going back down the hill to debt again! ;)

But it’s also natural that this transition will make you nervous.

Your blog will surely amplify what are natural feelings anyway.

What will your readers think of this future you? Few, after all, will have come so far while you’ve been posting. Would you tell the truth about bigger, more luxurious purchases in the transparent way you blogged about paring down your cocoa consumption? How much of your new stability is based around the identity of you as J.D. the debt-beating blogger, due to GRS’s success?

I don’t have answers to these questions, and I hope they don’t come across as too pop-psychological.

In short: I think this would be a normal transition for anyone, but you’re going to have to live your transition out in public, which will bring extra pressures.

The history of GRS strongly suggests you’re up to them!

Good luck.

Buying yourself something is perfectly fine as long as you see it as a treat for all your hard work. When you identify yourself and your ego is attached to the new object (ex:car) that usually spells trouble. A car is just metal on rubber. In the long run it will not make you a better or happier person.

Like Sherry (#13), I think you no way should feel guilty for what you’ve achieved by hard work and planning.

In fact, I’d argue that this type “false guilt” is at the root of many problems in our society.

So many people these days have no idea of the principle of cause and effect. They think that affluence falls out of the sky and lands randomly on this or that person–they don’t connect the reward to anything they personally do. While it is true that some people work hard and end up poor, it is just not true 99% of the time.

So by all means volunteer, donate, and give back. But please, reject that guilt! You have nothing to feel guilty for.

I can totally relate to your post, since I’ve been expert at feeling guilty almost all my life.

Here’s how I’ve conquered my guilt:

1. Ask yourself: if your guilt had an purpose, what would it be?

I’ve learned that we think what we think and feel what we feel because one part of us believes that it is good for us to think/feel that way — that it saves us from something bad or gives us something good.

I used to feel guilty because it made me feel like a better person.

(Just like I used to constantly worry about everything because I believed it would save me from making mistakes.)

2. Ask yourself: if I weren’t feeling guilty, what kind of person would I be?

By feeling guilty I tell myself that I’m not an insensitive and selfish person. Which is of course ridiculous — especially when you’ve done something RIGHT.

Just the fact that you don’t want to live the same kind of miserable life people around you live (because you’ve already experienced it and didn’t like it), doesn’t make you insensitive, greedy, arrogant, selfish or anything bad. It makes you smart — and human.

If you look at the babies, you’ll notice that all they want is to feel good — they’ll cry until they get what they want (food, sleep, cleaned up). And isn’t that what we all want? Wouldn’t it be really stupid to want to feel bad for your whole life? I personally believe it would.

3. Stop saying that you’re lucky or fortunate — no, you’re not.

You didn’t win in a lottery or inherited tons of money. You re-evaluated your life, worked hard on yourself, changed habits and made better choices. You followed your heart and seized the opportunities that were given to you. You made it all happen, not luck.

If you look at REALLY closely to the lives of those “less-fortunate” around you and really evaluate their choices and actions, you’ll notice that they’re not less fortunate than you are. They just weren’t willing to make as good choices as you did.

They might have been offered even better opportunities than you were, yet they never took them. They didn’t take responsibility for their own actions but blamed everything else, including bad luck, for getting the life they created with their poor choices.

Yes, one can always argue that they might have had bad upbringing or were born with a smaller IQ etc. that made it harder for them to see what they’re doing wrong and do something about their lives — BUT you can always find examples of people who had it even worse and still were able to make the best of their talents and resources and are now living a happy and fulfilling life.

And even if it really wasn’t someone’s fault that they’re doing worse than you’re, it’s not your fault either!!!

You can feel guilty even after the cows come home, but it doesn’t make their lives any better — it doesn’t even make them feel better or like you more. Nor does feeling guilty make your life any better — only makes you enjoy it less.

4. Understand that by enjoying the fruits of your labor, you’re actually helping other people.

By being proud of your accomplishments and really enjoying the life you’re now living, thanks to your smart choices, you inspire others to change their lives and get what you’ve got.

Instead of feeling bad about doing what’s right and apologizing that you got what everyone wants, be willing to help others to get where you’re at. Which is exactly what you’re doing with this blog!

So keep up the good work and please motivate and inspire us all even more by showing us how much you enjoy your new life and all the resources that you’ve earned all by yourself!

Thank you so much for all the tips and inspiration you’ve given us so far!

Interesting topic, JD. DH and I have been in phase 3 for a while. I have some guilt for being well-off while others aren’t. Different reasons, though, I think:

— I feel guilty when I had advantages others didn’t — I won the birth lottery in most ways that counted. Most causes I support are about disadvantaged people in less-secure parts of the world, and for improving educational opportunities for children.

— I feel lucky when we are equally smart and worked equally hard (or they were smarter and worked harder), and things worked out better for me for reasons no one could reasonably foresee. (20 years in software development, and haven’t been laid off yet.)

— I feel admiration when the others have come from disadvantaged backgrounds, had vision, and worked harder than I could imagine making it to a level of security and comfort. (Two of my SILs from the Philippines.)

— I DON’T feel guilty for anyone who started where I started, didn’t work very hard, didn’t step out of their own comfort zone, and rewarded themselves every stop of the way. Nope. (Thinking about various family members at this point.)

One more thought — because I have no way of knowing where most people came from or how they got to where they are now, I allow myself the twinge of envy looking at someone’s cool toys, and a nudge of gratitude/guilt hearing about a foreclosure or catastrophic illness or job loss. Then, I either try to do something constructive or let it go.

Hey JD,

You can feel less guilty about what you have if you appreciate it and don’t take it for granted.

You don’t see yourself as better because you have bigger stuff. You embrace what you have, and are happy to use it, but you appreciate it. You really appreciate it; not just saying you’re not taking it for granted aloud or to others, but feeling it deep inside. You don’t get used to having it, and continue to work at it to make it better. The same can go for great relationships when you see others around you with unfulfilling ones.

I’m sure it takes longer for some to feel less guilty than others, but that appreciative mindset can help to speed up the process.

It was great to read your personal experience with the guilt of wealth, thanks for sharing,
Oleg

I was just thinking about this yesterday. This very topic. Why?

Let me explain. I just took a vacation to Crete. I earned the money teaching English. I looked for the best deal and had saved enough for my two daughters and myself. I went with a lady from our church who has no family and needed someone to travel with since her health doesn’t allow her to travel by herself. I live in Poland so it’s not like it’s as far as from the states and I could do the whole thing (flight, hotel, food) for approx. $600 each. I had saved the money diligently for over a year, often teaching in inconvenient times and ugly weather when I’d rather be at home.

Yesterday I went to see a lady who has 3 children, a husband who is sick and apparently in a lot of pain and recently lost his job. They have a nice flat screened tv, but it’s not all paid for, I found out. Her husband lost his job recently and they are in danger of losing their housing to a worse situation (they are in public housing, but can be moved to worse public housing that doesn’t have running water even though they personally installed the running water and bathroom in this place years ago with their own money). I found out on the 16th they will have some visitors who may come and take their tv in order to pay the unpaid balance of their rent (about as much as one of cost to go to Crete)–about $600.

As I left their house, I felt a bit guilty. Why? I fight it. I fight in my mind…I could pay this lady’s unpaid balance. should I? We don’t even own a flat screen tv. If she had not purchased the flat screened tv, she’d have that money (theoretically, though probably not really) to pay the rent they owe.

I just don’t know what the right thing is. I do feel “lucky” in the sense that I was born an American with English as my native language. I can get paid almost $15-20/hour just for conversing in English so people can practice with a native speaker.

The other question is…what will this help help? If I pay the balance this time, will it just be a matter of 3 months til the next crisis? What is to be done as a more permanent solution? Can the husband, who has developed a severe physical problem, get put on some sort of disability that might help? The wife just had a baby 2 weeks ago and can’t work right now.

I’ve often wished I could help people by providing work. That is what they really need. JOBS so they can pay their own pay. Unfortunately here in Poland jobs for the unskilled seem in short supply.

@ Karen (comment #9) — Consider yourself lucky that your parents made good choices that enabled you to go to college without need-based scholarships.

I used to teach high school so I’ve seen the circumstances some students have to deal with — parents’ job loss, divorce, death of one or both parents, abuse, critical illness, natural disaster, etc. No amount of money is worth what these kids go through, and many of them would be trapped without a way to build a better life for themselves.

I felt guilty all throughout my undergrad because my family could afford to send me to school, but I lived very frugally compared to my friends who had lots of student loan money. Looking back, I think my guilt helped me form better financial habits :)

We have an opposite problem in my extended family. My parents inherited and then built up wealth. My brothers jumped on the family business -which went belly up after my dad left it.Dad has since passed away. My mother feels guilty and gives all kinds of things (season passes, private school tuition, cars, house motgages, vacations) to the boys since she WANTS them to continue to live wealthy. When they make money(sales commission), they immediately spend it on toys- begging for more from mom when they are out.
Anyway- just another side of guilt. What will your children expect from you? Even your very Adult children?
A tough – but real- issue.

I’ll continue to help as many people as possible improve their financial situation. Maybe if I can help others achieve wealth, I won’t feel guilty about my own.

Absolutely. I am not one of these people who see guilt as an entirely negative emotion. Guilt can be a negative emotion. It can also lead one to spiritual growth.

You have worked hard to achieve what you have achieved, J.D. You have also been lucky. Both things are so. So you should be enjoying the fruits of your labor without experiencing feelings of guilt. But to do that, you need to give back. You need to help others too. That needs to be part of the mix.

I don’t view the guilt feelings as a sign that you have not already found the right mix. I view them as a sign that you have not thought things through to the extent necessary to be sure yourself that you have found the right mix. Just keeping thinking it through, not going into denial over the feelings of guilt and not allowing them to be the only thing you pay attention to either. You will eventually come to know what is the right balance.

Rob

I can totally relate to this. My extended family is a mix of the ridiculously wealthy and the dirt poor. Some of it is through choice, some of it isn’t. I’m middle class right now, but when my SO graduates pharmacy school, I will be living quite well. Supposedly.

I feel fortunate, though, that I am able to do things like take one of my cousins for the best meal she’s ever had in her life, or I can give my sister $1000 without it really costing me anything.

“He worries that his kids will grow up to take for granted those things he views as blessings.” My fiancee and I struggle with this the most. His parents struggled to make ends meet when he was younger but through hard work, perseverance, and good fortune have become quite wealthy. He is old enough to remember his family struggling and so appreciates the position we have gained for ourselves (We both have college degrees and the potential for great jobs with time, we have saved enough money to pay for our wedding and to get us through if one of us loses our job) But his younger brother only remembers being wealthy and so takes material possessions for granted and thinks nothing of spending money he did not earn for himself. We do not want our future children to take wealth for granted and struggle with how to raise them to be appreciative.

JD–
Thanks for this blog post. I know I have posted this before, but I am working through a federal service program called AmeriCorps*VISTA this year. That stands for Volunteer In Service to America–and my pay reflects my title. If I were to average out an hourly wage based on my monthly living allowance, I’m making below $5.00/hour. My fiance and I share a household, and he is working his way through nursing school with a full-time job that pays under $8.00/hour. We qualify for and receive food stamps, and even with this extra help we struggle with money, always worrying about the littlest expenses.

According to the federal government, we live in poverty. But I work with people in poverty everyday who are far worse off than we are. Unlike many of my clients, we have zero credit car debt. And while we were in college getting an education, we started saving for an emergency fund (and a wedding). I am proud to say no matter what is going on in our lives, we have added a sizeable portion of our (albeit limited) income to those accounts every month. Our hope is that we won’t live in poverty forever and we recognize the only way to move into the middle class is to save.

That being said, I struggle everyday with feelings of guilt for not wanting to live like this forever, for wanting more financial security. Because I work with the poorest people in my portion of the state, I feel like I am abandoning them to save our money and move into the middle class.

So I know firsthand that it’s a difficult place to be in, but I have learned a few things about this feeling. I think you’re exactly right–you should not feel as guilty if you know that you are doing something to share the privileges you have with others and lift them up with you. If we were doing everything to help ourselves and nothing to help our neighbors, then that guilt would certainly be more applicable. But by continuing to give to other people–through time, money, advice in this blog, etc.–that guilt should fade over time as you know you have made a difference in the lives of others less fortunate.

Comment #40 — “A car is just metal on rubber. In the long run it will not make you a better or happier person.”

I insanely disagree. My cars are my life… I’m definitely better because of them and much, much happier because they’re in my life. I also have many awesome friends because of them, and someday hope to make money doing something car-related.

Just had to add that in; I’m sick of people acting like having a nice car makes you a horrible, awful, shallow person.

@Foxie || CarsxGirl :
As condescending as it sounds, it’s easy to feel the way you do when you’re 21. Then you grow up. I did it — I poured time and money into a Mustang and the community that came with it. Ultimately what did it get me? Nothing. Sure, I had fun with it for a while. I had friends in Mustang clubs and track days and car shows to go to. And to be sure, owning a nice car doesn’t make you a bad or shallow person. But still, like comment #40 says, you’ll probably look back in a couple years and think “It was just a car”.

To put it in perspective, imagine some a decade younger than you. Maybe a 12-year-old girl who got her first cell phone for her birthday. How excited she is about that little device. How she wanted it in pink. How she was accepted into the cool kids group at school because she got whatever phone’s currently the stylish one. She outfitted it it with all the cool accessories, and showed them off to her new friends, who said “wow, that’s awesome I wish I could afford a turbo kit (or cell phone case or whatever)!”. Imagine her saying “My phone is my life… I’m definitely better because of it and much, much happier because it’s in my life.”

And you’d look at her and think “in a few years you wont even remember that phone, but you’re a kid, so I understand your excitement.” Everyone ten years older can do the same to you and your cars.

There are some really great comments on this particular GRS post. I think Charles (#7) said it best. I would like to add, however, that a great amount of guilt felt by those who have money to burn has to do with the plundering of the Earth’s limited resources. There is no doubt that the human impacts on climate change, and environmental degradation in general, caused by excessive consumption is truly manifesting itself in consumer consciousness. If you feel guilty about buying unnecessary material items, you should. It means that you care about the health of life on Earth and preserving precious resources for future generations. If you don’t feel guilty, you need a lesson in morality.

First off, I love this topic. I talk about it whenever the opportunity arises because so many people are so torn on how wealth could and should be distributed in society. I am among them! Even so, in the dozen years since college graduation and especially over the past few years as my husband and I have watched our net worth grow into a shockingly substantial number I have developed some thoughts serve as my guideposts. Perhaps they will provide direction for you and others as well, J.D.

I should start off by saying that we don’t have the guilt that you write of, but instead we feel a strong sense of responsibility. We are thrifty by nature, took advantage of great educations (full scholarship for one and part for the other), work hard, blah, blah, blah and all the “right” things to get us into this situation in the first place. So we could certainly argue that we have every right to enjoy, horde, and even flaunt what we have. That, however, is not in keeping with who we are.

Like many people, we don’t want our children to grow up knowing how rich we are. I think most of us would agree that breeding a sense of entitlement into children (or adults!) has very negative outcomes both for the individuals and for greater society. We choose not to live in the very high end neighborhoods we could afford, and from the outside our lives look very much like those of our neighbors. So in that sense, our kids could just blend in. But at the same time, we want to teach our children that we are incredibly well off, and that a lot of that came to us through opportunities that we were equipped to accept. Although many of us middle and upper class folks point to various program guidelines and say, “See, everyone has the same opportunity we did to be successful,” the more that you actually interact with the destitute and working poor, the more you realize that they are not remotely equipped to take advantage of so many of those opportunities.

I believe that financial education is one of the keys to unlocking those doors. I financially support programs that work to make this a reality for everyone, not just people who had fathers who taught them the ins and outs at home like mine. Another way that I support these efforts is by volunteering my time as an IRS-certified volunteer tax preparer through the VITA program. I am not an accountant, and you don’t need to be. http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=119845,00.html This has opened my eyes about the disparity in access to opportunity in my own community in ways that reading statistics and writing checks never did. I have also been shocked out of my complacency by other experiences. My husband once was distributing food among weekly rate hotels in town. His team stopped at a horribly run down motel at the edge of our neighborhood. Our neighborhood mailing list includes a good bit of wishing that it would just fall down as well as several other businesses that border the neighborhood. One of the people he brought food to told him that being able to live in that falling down motel for a while now had been the best thing to happen to her in 10 years. Talk about a change in our perspective… Another time, my two-year old and I waited at a bus stop with a newly released felon who had spent all day being turned down for jobs. I knew about agencies in town who offer lots of services to help, but his parole officer hadn’t told him about them. He asked good questions that revolved around access – like whether they were on a bus route. (I didn’t know.) While we waited, he flagged down a garbage truck as it passed and asked the driver if he knew how he could get a job driving garbage trucks – he had heard that the city waste service was willing to hire felons. Are we falling short as a society if we don’t make sure he even knows how to step onto the first rung of rejoining society? If we instead leave him alone to be tempted by the easier path of committing another crime to be “taken care of” again? These aren’t easy questions, and I wrestle with them regularly.

My message to you is that guilt is not productive. Leave it behind. Decide what kind of life you want to live and what kind of person you want to be. Then make sure your money follows your mouth, whichever way that may be. If particular purchases make you feel guilty, it’s probably not something about that purchase specifically that is bothering you but rather a more general uncertainly about whether your wallet is following your values. You mentioned surprise that charitable giving doesn’t take care of the guilt. That doesn’t surprise me one bit. We have been giving substantial sums to charity ever since graduating from college, even before our debt was paid off. But the kind of engagement I described above over a period of several years has really changed how we view and relate to our money. I like FrugalBachelor’s terming of this as a fourth stage of personal finance. When it comes to charitable giving, many people say that you should give until it hurts, but I think that totally misses the mark. When it comes to charity, you should give until it feels good. In other words, once you’ve got your giving directions and amounts aligned with your values and goals, you’ll know you’ve hit the mark. It is never a completely done deal, and you’ll still wrestle with exactly what to do each year. But it sure feels good to watch your money dance to a tune of your making.

Very interesting, JD, and a great discussion thread going on now. I often feel the same way around our main group of friends, all of which have a couple of kids and where the wife only works part-time, if at all, and who therefore have much less disposable income than my husband and I do (although we are expecting our first child next year).

But what I feel is not guilt, and I wonder if yours really is as well. Rather, I feel *embarrassed*. Embarrassed that we can buy a new house, that we went out to this or that restaurant, whatever. I don’t feel guilty because I’ve not done anything wrong, they’re just on a different path to us. They made choices and while they sometimes make comments about us having it easy that we can do this or that, they are happy with their choice, as we are with ours. But I am conscious that I don’t want to look like I’m bragging to them, so I downplay our news. Because it’s embarrassing.

We have other sets of friends who are childless, and who all work, often in much more lucrative fields than us. I don’t feel embarrassed talking about these things with them at all, in fact most of them are doing better than we are. It’s a relief to spend time with them sometimes.

I don’t think you should feel guilty–you should feel proud. Not everyone has gotten to where you have. I am on my way to your realm–I am already proud of the progress I’ve made, and will never feel guilty

Another great post JD and so many good comments here. I am well off, debt free, and have a very significant savings. The only guilt I ever feel is when I hold back from my children. I’d like to give them everything they desire but I know that by teaching them how to earn and save for it themselves they will be far better off. At ages 26, 24 and 22 now I can see the fruit of this harder path as they each make their own way in such a positive, debt free fashion.

However, I have experienced some very interesting challenges that are similar to the guilt you mention. I don’t consider myself “religious” but I do consider myself a spiritual person. As I’ve saved more and more money I’ve become very intrigued by the verse in Matt 19:24 that says, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

That to me speaks very heavily about the responsibility of having money. What you do with your wealth is very important. I have come to realize that a conscientious person that cares about others and the challenges around the world will wrestle with how wealth is supposed to be used. I have come to believe that the guilt you mention may really be more of a sense of deep responsibility that most of us inherently feel to our fellow man. How do we best use that wealth to better others? Having money adds a “weight” about my shoulders that I never anticipated having. For those of us with a conscience having money carries an important responsibility.

I have also found that when trying to explain this to others who don’t have such wealth they will often look at me like I have two heads! I may be a little strange looking but a two headed dude I’m not!!

So what do I do about it? Two things, first, I have continued frugal living, treating myself occasionally but not flaunting it. Second, long ago I found the only way to relieve that weight is to aggressively pursue responsible giving. Responsible giving to me means that it is NOT a handout but results in a situation where someone “learns to fish” instead of just being given a fish. I also carefully examine each organization to make sure that their overhead is VERY low. That’s why I love organizations like http://www.kiva.org. Giving to me is not only money but time!

I also discovered that for my personality I had to do it as anonymously as possible. If I was recognized for my giving I only felt worse. By giving and helping anonymously that weight has become a blessing.

Good luck in your journey JD and thanks for sharing. You’ll figure this out too!

Regarding assuaging guilt with donations: I need to remind people yet again that many, many charitable organizations need your TIME and your STRONG BACK just as much or more than your DOLLAR.

I think it’s just a variation on survivor’s guilt, not something you should actually feel guilty about.

I mean, if you’re in a car accident and other people die while you live, you’re going to feel that same kind of guilt. It’s not because you did something wrong, because you didn’t deserve to survive, or because your survival somehow cost the others their lives. It’s irrational.

Funny I always find myself in this same situation. Like it’s your fault you can afford things and others can’t.

I guess it’s human nature to sympathize with others.

There are even times we do not want to tell our relatives where we are . My wife and I would normally plan trips without announcing it to others. We are sometimes guilt stricken to afford some not too lavish vacation.

It’s crazy. Sometimes we do not give straight answers when asked if we own this business they saw. Specially if we have a hint that the question is more of just to satisfy their curiosity, we would just give a polite smile.

I think this guilt feeling is because we have been there and we know how it feels to be in their situation and so it makes us a bit careful to offend others with our display of wealth.

Even in giving to charities, we prefer to be anonymous donors than have our names posted all over the place or announced.

It is good to have brought this up. I now feel we are normal people. I’ve developed this notion that we are just being paranoid about financial stuff.

I used to feel guilty about my wealth but not any more. I have come to terms with it and I accept it. Just the same way I accept having green eyes or being born with brown hair….it is what it is. My wealth isn’t happenchance. It didn’t come my way by accident. It was worked for. It was worked for by me and my predecessors.
But I also know that just as easy as money can come your way, it is even easier to lose it. I have come to realize that money and wealth is a gift from God. As long as I am grateful for my wealth, vow to help others less fortunate than myself and never ever do harm with my money, I have learned that wealth is something not to be ashamed of or feel guilty about.

If you inherited the wealth I could see where you may feel guilty from time to time because you did not really earn the money. However if you did all the hard work and studying and sacraficed you should never feel guilty EVER.

I have been in situation since I am the guy with the money that I am the one pressured. People assume since you have it you should just give it to them! Usually these are the people that buy all the frivilous items you would never dream of buying and usually they have a story. I need it for taxes then they go and buy a drum set. When they get it home their wife puts a hammer through each drum since he did not spend the money on her. (TRUE STORY) Since I don’t waste my own money it is hard for me to give it to someone else to waste it. I prepare for a rainy day and others ask me to hand them the umbrella. I would never let a love one starve or get evicted but short of that I have learned to say no more easily every year and for the last 10 I have said No almost exclusively without any guilt. Reason….it is always the same people that come back for money. Tell them no and they figure out a way to survive.

@Big Al[86]:

One of the most true sayings I know: “Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime. Or at least until all the fish run out from overfishing.”

OK, So I added that last part :)

The best way to prevent the guilt is to purchase the item as a gift for someone you love. My husband would have a hard time going out and buying a PS3 for himself, however if I’m the one who wants to get it for him as a birthday gift there is no guilt. So JD, learn to think of the furniture as a gift to your wife because not only has she earned but it also serves as a reminder of how much you love her. Furniture> roses

You also do not talk about your finances or brag about the stuff that you do have. Think modesty.

People will not see a purchase as being wasteful if they know that it is something that you love, have done your whole life, and have made sacrifices for. A large fishing boat for a man in his 50s who has gone fishing several times a year since he is a little boy is not outrageous.

It would be a tragedy to let yourself feel guilty for a feeling that someone else may or may not be having. If someone cares about you then the only feelings they will have are good ones when they see how much you enjoy your purchase. No one else matters since they don’t care about you anyways.

Ask yourself these questions:

Did I work hard? Did I get where I am without cheating someone else? Did I live by my values?

If you can answer yes to all three, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Does your brother really want (or need) more material possessions? Perhaps the best thing you could do for him is just “be there” and support him. I noticed you didn’t mention feeling guilty about your Mini, but you did about the furniture – perhaps your old furniture was just fine and you didn’t really need the new stuff?

@April, #90 – You’d think that people wouldn’t judge someone who loves fishing who buys a fishing boat in their 50’s – at last! But people do.

My husband and I have worked hard, saved a lot, bought a house and a business. Some of this has been done on our own, and some of it with assistance from family. However, my in-laws are children of the depression, so to *them*, anything that isn’t housing and basic food & clothing = frivolous.

Whereas DH and I work hard on the concept of balance, since we see them in their 70’s, unable to enjoy the fruits of their hard work. So we DO travel. We DO have nice cars. We DO save 15%+ for retirement. We DO give to friends in need.

Yet, to my in-laws, the idea that I might buy a new car is HORRIFYING. The idea that we bought jet skis (with CASH) and have used them from May-November every year for 5 years (after renting for 10 years) is HORRIFYING. They just cannot reconcile the idea that buying something simply for FUN or because you WANT to is OK. They equate spending with a moral failure.

And recently, my husband’s brother and his wife split up. As a result, my brother-in-law is going through some financial hardships, since he needs to pay the mortgage on his own, and he needs to buy out his soon-to-be-ex from the family business. When we sent him email about planning for a holiday weekend NEXT JULY, he replied snottily, and said that he guessed he no longer ran in our “financial circle.” So yes, not only do we feel guilty, but our relatives seem to LIKE making us feel guilty.

As I told my husband several years ago – “If we’re the flighty ones in the family, your family really needs to expand their horizons.” :^)

So yes, we struggle. Sometimes a lot. Our answer has been – we’re not hurting anyone. We work hard, and we’re not achieving success by exploiting others. We save. We give. We help. We’re thoughtful when we do spend. We pay cash. So it’s NOT a moral failure to enjoy some of that result. We may not be able to work or travel forever, so we need to be OK with the idea that others might judge us, and do what’s important to us. In the end, personal finance really is personal.

>>to the person who made this comment:
>>Anyway- just another side of guilt. What will your >>children expect from you? Even your very Adult >>children?
>>A tough – but real- issue.

I can tell you how to avoid some of the the problems of parental wealth versus adult children’s expectations (based on what my family has done):

#1 – be clear from an early age that your children should not expect an inheritance. Both of my parents (divorced) have made repeated statements about not expecting anything to be left over from their lives beyond some cherished mementos. If I get a dime from either estate I will be surprised and grateful.

#2 – be generous with LOANs but charge your adult (18+) children interest. My dad has done this for both my brother and I and it has worked out well. We both have borrowed some significant sums ($2,000-8,000) at different times in our lives and we have both paid our parent back in a reasonable and timely fashion.

#3 – the best advice I got from Suzie Ormon was the idea that you pay people back before corporations, darn your credit score if need be. Teach your children to understand the value of preserving personal relationships, and they will be able to borrow money even if a bank won’t lend to them.

I think this post really hit a nerve. So many people have responded but I might as well put in my 2 cents. Living a frugal lifestyle had always been a difficult goal for my husband and I to reach. We lived in an area where living frugally is like trying to lose weight being surrounded by an all you can eat buffet. We found ourselves constantly hungry for more “stuff” and novel experiences.
Fortunately, we hadn’t managed to have kids yet. I knew for me having kids would be where the rubber would hit the road financially. Because my dad passed away when I was a kid, my mom had to go to work instead of staying home with my brother and I. I knew no matter what, I was going to find a way to stay home. So here I am 7 years into the parenting odyssey and making good on that commitment has changed my life.
If I could name the one thing that has changed for me it is learning a deep sense of gratitude. Living on just my husband’s income proved to be quite challenging and without prayer and an abiding trust in God’s care for us, I would have given up. For quite a while I complained to God about how hard this life we had chosen had turned out to be. However over time, my thinking started to change. I began to see managing our household and its finances as a game to see how far I could stretch a buck. This is where gratitude became so instrumental: I started to look at everything we had as gift from God and I learned to really enjoy it. Gradually, it became easier and easier to say to no spending money because I looked at what we had and I knew it served our needs just fine. I found I was becoming emotionally attached to the worn items we already had because they were a gift from my Creator and like a gift from a really good friend, I treasured it because of the relationship it represented. I started considering myself VERY well taken care of because that was precisely the case.
Seemingly without even knowing it, we gravitated from barely making ends meet to having extra money to save every month. To say the least, I am overjoyed at this development. The clincher is I knew it wasn’t me that did it. It was the work that God did in my heart and I am delighted by His kindness. Loving the treasured less, I am much happier now than I have ever been.
Are you wondering what guilt has to do with this post? Here’s the thing: Because we finally have money to get a few nice things, I find I don’t really want them. I can’t think of a good reason to get a fancy new _____ because the one we already have works fine and I like it. I find I am constantly talking myself out of spending money. Finding the reason to purchase something is now proving to be the challenge. At present I am working on how to spend money with integrity of purpose. I want to know that every dollar I spend supports the principles I know to be of highest value in my life. When I do that, I am satisfied and so is my guilt.

I think guilt can be healthy because that is what makes you step forward and do good for others. But I also think that many people do things simply to assuage guilt that may actually hurt others in the long run. It was pointed out early in this list of posts that when we give people things (food, clothing, whatever) we can stunt their drive to do for themselves and we can undercut people who provide those things as their own livelihood. Or we mean to give aid to starving people in Africa and the warlords take it an enrich themselves that makes the conflict last that much longer.

But I think that often people who feel guilty are people who are otherwise optimists. It isn’t so much that you ARE fortunate as you FEEL fortunate. For example I am often waiting for the other shoe to drop in my life because I feel so blessed: I’m due some misery. But when I say that out loud my friends look at me like I’m crazy and they ask about the tenant that cheated me or the unexpected need to remodel my house (huge leak due to problems a previous remodel just painted over). But I take those things in stride. It’s part of life.

I remember being in the fourth grade and feeling really guilty because I was by far the highest performer in the class. It wasn’t fair that I was smarter, it was a twist of fate. And a couple minutes later I was thinking how unfair it was that my family was poor and my classmates had gotten so many more cool toys for Xmas. Then it hit me: LIFE ISN’T FAIR. We play the hand we’re dealt. Money isn’t the only thing that isn’t even. I know wealthy people and high earners who are lonely, bitter, have cancer, are crippled, or any number of problems money can’t insulate you from. And I know poor people who sing like the residents of Whoville on Christmas morning. Life is what you make of it, money is just one part.

All good advice. But, you might add to the list “get a job with a public employer that provides one of the most generous pension benefits in the country.”

I’m guessing that your millionaire neighbor was a public school teacher in Oregon. Public employee’s in Oregon of your neighbor’s vintage were blessed with guaranteed (!) 8% returns on their retirement accounts-regardless of the performance of the market. So, your neighbor has a guaranteed pension for the rest of his life based on a retirement account that grew at no less than 8% per year-regardless of the performance of his other investments. I applaud him for his thrift, his attitudes, and the way he has constructed his life, but he is working from a foundation that most of us will never ever have-the promise of a monthly pension check from a source that will not be depleted.

So can we avoid guilt in this world? We can feel guilty if we are careful and live below our means and purchase things with cash. OR we can feel guilty everytime we use a credit card while getting ourselves deeper into debt.

I know which “guilt” I would prefer to have

I always seem to come to comment way too late — over 100 comments in front of me, and unfortunately I don’t have time to read them all.

But fear not, JD, you are not alone. We’ve had the same feelings — and we’re just getting started on our life journey!

We aren’t “rich” by any means — we don’t have a million dollar portfolio, we don’t own a mansion… but we have a bunch of cash saved up for various goals (“new” car, emergency fund, etc.). Sometimes I sit and stare at our Excel spreadsheet and I am just baffled that we’ve been able to sock so much cash away (plus our Roth IRAs) when I know many of the people we know haven’t done the same.

At the end of the day it is 100% the choices everyone makes. Sometimes I feel guilt, sometimes I feel regret that we aren’t out there living financially irresponsible lives. (And how crazy does that sound!) One of my fears is that we live this incredibly responsible life and then I die before we get to really enjoy it. (The “live like no one else so you can live like no one else” part of the deal.)

Great post.

@Justin [103]

Not trying to bring the guy down-I’m fine with him having a pension. I wish more people had them.

My point is that this guy operates from a position that fewer and fewer of us will ever be in, which is to have worked under retired with a defined benefit retirement plan (and a damn generous one in his case). A person whose primary retirement income will be derived from a 401(k) doesn’t have nearly the same amount of security.

Hello JD!
I’m Tiago and I’m writing from Sao Paulo, Brazil.
I totally understand what you mean because I face a similar situation in my life.
Going straight to the point, here are my thoughts: sometimes helping others to get wealth won’t make you satisfied, won’t make you happy. That’s because you know deep down that some people just didn’t had any chance to do so. They were born poor and had bad education (from family and/or school) and therefore they can’t have what you’ve got. My suggestion is go to a homeless shelter and help them out in some way. Offer your other qualities as human being, not only your knowledge on this matter. I’m sure you will feel a lot better and you will give them something they need, and I’m not talking about money or wealth.
I guess for me it’s easier to see that since I live in a poor country and the social differences here are big and everywhere.
That’s it.
Great blog, by the way!
Cheers.

What a great post, I really enjoyed it! My husband and I are in our late 30s/early 40s and because of our modest lifestyle, aggressive savings strategy and reasonably healthy incomes, we are consumer debt free and own our house without a mortgage. Not that I would ever trade this situation for something less secure, but I do find that it’s harder (i.e. I feel guilty, as described in your post!) to say “We don’t want to spend money on that” than it is to say “We can’t afford that.” I think that once you’re financially secure, your values become more public, if that makes sense. Other people can see what you do and don’t spend money on when your spending is up to you, and that’s not always an easy thing.

Thanks for the fantastic blog, I really enjoy reading GRS and have learned so much from you and your guest bloggers!

How funny but true. We work so hard for many years to get what we want and then when we get it we feel bad about it. I think we get this feeling due to years of accepting we cannot have it, or we have accepted we are from a social level that having a BMW is not normal. Then when we get it – it is a shock to the system and we feel that we don’t deserve it due to the strong hardwired feelings and thoughts we have carried for many years.

“The worst guilt is to accept an unearned guilt.” – Ayn Rand

This is the first time you’ve written a post that has annoyed me :-) I am a middle class urban frugal mom who thinks of money similarly to you. But I think this guilt thing reeks of confused socio-political morality. Modern liberalism teaches us that money is an evil tool of the conservatives so even when we work hard, live in moderation, behave frugally and responsibly, and even give away money to charitable causes, we STILL feel guilty because we associate money itself with something filthy. This is obviously absurd unless you’re living some grotesque bling-bling Dynasty ‘lifestyles of the rich and famous’ kind of life.

I say dump the guilt. It is a hugely inefficient use of time. If you can help others than great, but you can’t do *everything* for them – they have to meet you halfway or it won’t work.

@Pistolette[115]:

This! Way to hit it right on the head again. I find Ayn Rand’s philosophies becoming more evident every day, on both sides of the fence. I see more and more people falling into the traps of the “liberal” thinking you defined above, due to the polarization of the issues based on the current domestic political landscape and actions. And I am realizing that there are more people than I expected that are ready to reject such thinking, and move on to a personal value-set closer to rational self-interest.

Here’s the one question I always like to throw out to people, because one of two things will happen: They will either answer quickly and honestly, or you can practically see their twisted rationalities implode on themselves.

The scenario: Your significant other is sick, but luckily there is a cure! But you can barely afford it, and will likely be in debt for the rest of your natural lives. There are also 5 other people in the hospital, and you have been talking to their families while in the waiting room. You find out that all of them have the same sickness, and the total cost of their cures is the same as that for your wife/husband. Would you honestly let your wife/husband die, in order to save these other five strangers?

I don’t think I’ve met anyone who could honestly answer that they would save the five strangers. But that is exactly what their philosophies of self-sacrifice and the “greater good” call for! This is the key to exposing their true motive: They never want to sacrifice themselves for others, but rather, want others to sacrifice themselves for them. Once you see through this, your guilt and pity for them suddenly melts away.

J.D. – Have you considered how starting a business could provide jobs for the less priveleged? Although I don’t know the specifics, Dave Ramsey counsels people how to get out of debt. Could you start a “Get Rich Slowly” phone-counseling business? Perhaps pulling counselors from your huge and intelligent commentor pool?

Avoiding guilt is why I am thankful to have the Church teach me about charity. Since I incorporated charitable giving (money and time) into every step of my financial growth, I know that I was able to help people all along the way. And since my charitable giving is a percentage of my income, growing my income also helps others.

It sounds like you are on track to be living the exact same way you were before with the one difference of not being in debt. It is still the same lifestyle, and the same assumptions: that purchases lead to happiness.

What you have at your disposal are time and money. Perhaps it would be worth considering skyrocketing your spiritual development rather than merely skyrocketing your savings. Meditate daily. Donate (time and money) to charity. Offer free personal finance consulting to people who struggle. Open a non-profit aimed at aiding those in debt to overcome the hurdles needed to make that transformation in their life.

Looking for happiness in the material world is fleeting. You can have anything you want materially. That is easy. Happiness is not material.

I don’t think having a goal and a plan for your future, financial or no, should make you feel guilty. You mention “getting breaks”, but I think opportunity will knock at many doors, and the person has to have the willpower to open those doors.
Sure, if you robbed someone to get your money you should feel guilty. Getting rewarded for hard work should not make you feel guilty!

I was a huge Ayn Rand fan when I was younger. Fifteen years ago, I thought she was brilliant. I’m older now, and I’ve seen more of the world. I realize things aren’t as simple as she would have us believe. I also think she does a poor job handling grey areas. Things are not as black and white as in The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. Yes, there are absolutes, but not as many as she thinks there are.

Plus, I’ve never been satisfied with what I call the “Eddie Willers problem”. Willers is Dagny Taggart’s loyal assistant and long-time best friend. He’s not a genius, though, and he’s not an industrialist. He’s merely a hard-working guy who wants to lead a happy, moral life. And when the Great Men stop the world, they screw him over — and the people like him.

Also, I find it hilariously ironic that Rand’s ideology has been co-opted by the neo-cons. For decades, she was shunned by liberal and conservative alike. But while the liberals dismissed her as a minor annoyance, the conservatives were especially vitriolic toward her and her ideas. Now they think she’s keen? Boggles my mind. And since so much of the conservative movement in the United States is based on a fundamentalist Christian mindset, how do they reconcile their love of the ultra-atheist Rand?

Anyhow, I still like many of Rand’s ideas, and on a personal level, I subscribe to her philosophy. I just don’t think it’s appropriate for national policy making. It’s too black-and-white and ignores the very real concept of social capital (in a Randian universe, there is no social capital).

JD – I think you nailed the Ayn Rand discussion perfectly. Your wisdom about how the world works contributes to your blog’s success.

I too was an Ayn Rand fan in my earlier years. I considered myself a “social Darwinist”. But, as you point out, Rand misses the key element of civil society – the glue that holds it together – social capital. Humans are wired to maximize social capital. Societies lacking in it fail. Unfortunately, we are on that course. Read Putnam’s Bowling Alone, and it will scare the heck out of you.

Anyway, I think the guilt you describe is fully related to social capital. If your efforts in life are not dedicated to developing and maintaining social capital, then your actions are inconsistent with the basic function of the human being. A society that emphasizes and supports selfishness is destined to fall apart. Listen to your guilt – it is telling you something. Use it as a guide to do the right thing. You usually do.

@Justin (#129)
????

Social capital is not a “cure-all”. It is, however, a very real component of society, and one that Rand ignores. She is so anti-altruism that she disregards the possibility of doing something good now for my neighbor (or for my community) with no immediate perceived benefit. From my experience, giving without the expectation of return often produces unexpected and unintended benefits, both for myself and for others. Rand isn’t fond of “giving” if there’s no immediate benefit to the self.

My point is that social capital is largely ignored — not just by Rand, but by most economists — and that’s too bad. It’s a very real and very important thing.

Thank you, Amy. I’ve been looking for something like that for years. I actually have Branden’s The Art of Living Consciously here on my desktop (I used it as reference for the first two chapters of my book). I’m familiar with the broad outlines of his story, but I’ve never read anything like this from him.

I particularly like the bit where he talks about the difference between sacrifice and benevolence. I think this gets to the heart of one of the problems of Rand’s philosophy:

I am referring to the principle of benevolence, mutual helpfulness and mutual aid between human beings. I believe it is a virtue to support life. I believe it is a virtue to assist those who are struggling for life. I believe it is a virtue to seek to alleviate suffering. None of this entails the notion of self-sacrifice. I am not saying that we should place the interests of others above our own. I am not saying that our primary moral obligation is to alleviate the pain of others. I am not saying that we do not have the right to place our own interests first. I am saying that the principle of benevolence and mutual aid is entirely compatible with an ethic of self-interest and more: An ethic of self-interest logically must advocate the principle of benevolence and mutual aid.

Given that we live in society, and given that misfortune or tragedy can strike any one of us, it is clearly in our self-interest to live in a world in which human beings deal with one another in a spirit of mutual benevolence and helpfulness. Could anyone seriously argue that the principle of mutual aid does not have survival value?

Great stuff. Thank you.

INTERESTING this post arrived today, simultaneously with my weekly Philosopher’s Notes – on who else – but Ayn Rand – and this week’s booknotes – drumrollllll – THE FOUNTAINHEAD! Check it out here – free clip to listen to and summary if you are NOT familiar with Rand.

http://philosophersnotes.com/titles/the-fountainhead

Rand was a kook and idiot. Perhaps she was a compelling kook, but one shouldn’t take her writing seriously. It’s ridiculous psuedo-capitalist mumbo-jumbo.

Anyone who quotes her is a fool.

There’s a reason she’s not studied in important political science or philosphy programs. (Or at least not any ones I’ve ever seen.) I never encountered her once on a reading list and neither has anyone I’ve ever met.

Please understand that there is only one point I’m attempting to get across here. And that is that no one is owed any part of your personal success, beyond fair payment for goods and services rendered to you. Whether it be through guilt-induced charity (subtle) or taxation for welfare programs (openly coercive). While I accept the Randian principle of rational self-interest, I accept that not everyone derives value from the same things, and that different values will produce different results. I believe this is what Nathaniel Branden calls “Confusing reason with ‘the reasonable'”. I simply call it, “there is no accounting for taste”. Hopefully that clarifies my position, and I really do believe we are basically all in agreement.

@JD[132]:

“My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue.”

-–From “Playboy’s 1964 interview with Ayn Rand”

I see no disagreement here. They seem to be advocating the same thing: That if you personally find value in charity, then there is no reason why you should not partake. But the idea of it being a moral duty, a moral lien against your successes because others aren’t as successful, I reject. And that kind of lien is exactly what you described in your post JD.

@barnetto[135]:

Their actions could also be seen as selfish, in that they are working to prevent destruction something they value, which is the basic human right of free life. The progression of the Holocaust is a good example as to why this is important for everyone. It started with just the Jews; it later generalized to everyone who is not an able-bodied Aryan. That is why this is an entangling factor, and why it is removed in my scenario.

The loss of free life does mean so much more than that extra 10% of your earnings. I agree completely with you, and I was mistaken in what I said before. The basic point I was badly trying to present is that I see little difference in these two options:

* Forcibly submitting the results of my work to a government, in order for it to “justly” redistribute it, presumably giving me some share of it back to me so that I may obtain the necessities of life.
* Involuntary servitude, where I am forced to work for someone else’s profit, and that person provides the basic necessities of life to me.

The difference between 35% taxation and 100% taxation is just a number in a formula. But the difference to those who must endure it… It is so much more than that. That is what I meant by the difference being 10%.

@137

Would you mind posting a link to the story you mentioned? I don’t take her for the norm and I’d like to see more specifics on her circumstances.

As far as the charities go, you’re not comparing apples to apples. The difference between us and other countries is probably due to culture and/or the fact that there is no need for many charities when government programs fill their role.

The book “Limbo” helped me shed some light on some of these ideas; I recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-Dreams/dp/0471714399

Oftentimes people who have not earned success find it difficult to understand the mixed emotions felt by the newly (1st generation) successful. In this case, I mean both the poor and those for whom success was heavily subsidized by family. I have yet to meet anyone who truly pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps who did not have these feelings.

Intellectually, I’m quite proud of my modest achievements, but it feels wrong for my life to be so easy when it is so hard for so many.

@JD: My point in bringing up Rand is that her philosophies regarding GUILT, the topic of this post, are very appropriate. I agree with you that she tends to oversimplify, but it doesn’t mean all her ideas are invalid. As an independent thinker I do not disregard wise words simply because my political opponents use them to their advantage. If the neo-cons want to contort Rand for their own benefit they are free to do so. I’m secure enough in my ideas that I don’t feel I have to say the political opposite for fear I may be associated with the wrong party. Btw, I love this blog (esp your garden stuff because I do urban gardening. Keep up the good work!).

Extreme thoughts are only worth reading if they are combined with rigor and skill. Nietzsche is a good example of an extreme, but rigorous thinker. Rand may have a compelling style, but she’s neither rigorous nor skilled as a philosopher. Anyone with a charming prose style can sway their reader with bold statements and unsubstantiated claims. She just doesn’t hold up when you really think about what she says.

Many philosophers have charming styles, but they are read because they also have the rigor.

And I didn’t mean my peers directly. As far as I know Twain, Dickens and Austen have not been dropped from reputable English Lit department syllabi. And as far as I know, Rand has not been adopted by reputable philosophy or political science departments.

It’s possible that Rand’s fiction is worth reading. However, the philosophy that underpins it is nuts.

A number of commenters have danced around it, but this guilt that one may feel about one’s material wealth is why many people do change their social circles when their financial circumstances change.

While we are prepared to have varying circumstances, we often dislike being far from the median, and we often dislike having our acquaintances being an outlier as well. Social pressure acts on us regarding finances, political views, clothing, and a whole host of points.

If you have grown up in a circle where substantial debt is common, it feels odd to have no debt and odder still to maintain the no debt. If you grew up in a circle that did not feel advanced education was worthwhile, it feels odd to be studying hard.

It’s not to say it is destiny, but social/family pressure is very, very succesful unless we are aware of the pressure others place on us and the pressure we place on others (It’s a two-way street for sure). Social pressure is almost always disguised, and often has a beneficial effect, so it can’t be discarded wholesale.

When I visit some of my family, I’m the not quite poor relation, and in others I’m the successful one, so I fancy that I can adapt to changes in circumstances quite well, but perhaps I’m just the median.

Isn’t is more a matter of:
– years of keeping up with the Jones’s and going into debt
– years of avoiding keeping up with the Jones’s and paying off your debt
– suddenly finding that your last name now is ‘Jones’ and getting used to the new role?

@KF[151]:

I can’t really address much of what you’ve said, because I don’t really agree with most of it. But here are a few points:

“Society” does not determine the wages of a profession. Simple supply and demand do. Anyone with an able body can be a janitor. High supply, low wages. Only highly trained people can be doctors. Low supply, high wages. Obviously, as said before, there are aberrations to this.

The best way to keep kids from being “over-entitled losers” is to instill in them work ethic, not charity. What happens if your children end up un(der)educated and poor? Will they not expect charity then, because that is exactly what they were brought up with? Charity conditions expecting something for nothing; work ethic conditions getting nothing without earning it.

There is one “charity” that I support when I can: Habitat for Humanity. Why? Well, first I go and work, and I learn home construction and maintenance skills which can be applied to my own benefit. Second, they actually require their beneficiaries to earn their home; they do not simply give them away for free. They must help in the construction or rehabilitation of the home, and they must still pay for a mortgage, though it is a small non-profit loan covering H4H’s outlay of funds into the house. By doing this, they instill pride and ownership of the home into their beneficiaries. It is truly THEIR home that they earned, not one that was simply given to them.

Actually, it is not due to resource limitations that so many around the world suffer. If that were the case, Hong Kong would not be the economic powerhouse it is today. What leads to extreme poverty is a) lack of firmly substantiated property rights (or lack political stability to enforce them), and b) lack of free trade (i.e. having overly strong economic controls, regulations, and barriers in place which prevents small businesses from developing and flourishing). Simply making a transfer of resources from one place to another won’t fix that problem. In fact, in some ways, it makes the problem worse by making those countries reliant on the handouts we give them.

That doesn’t mean it’s wrong to try to help… on the contrary. But instead of focusing too much on the symptoms, we need to keep our eyes on the underlying problem.

I think that the guilt you feel is a beautiful thing. Some of that guilt (I speculate) may come from the fact that you are teaching people about how to be frugal on this site… while at the same time splurging a little bit more. You will eventually get used to being able to afford some of the “finer” things. But you can use that to keep you from going overboard and not getting a swollen head!

Before I decided to post I read every single comment, to see if anyone’s made this point and to get a sense of the community on the subject of guilt. There will be readers who disagree with my examples and I’m very interested to hear reasons and other examples. There will probably be readers who disagree with the entire concept, in which case I hope to read why.

I think one source of wealth is worthy of feeling guilty about, another is not.

The first is privilege. Privilege here is defined as something that benefits you, that you don’t have as a result of your own efforts. Morrison #84’s example of brown hair is one case. If brown hair is a tremendous benefit in getting wealth, then it’s a privilege and not an earned item. Examples of wealth-inducing privilege in US society include well-educated parents, being white, growing up in a house full of books, being offered test prep classes, not having to work during the school year. I think this is what tosajen #46 means when ze talks about winning the birth lottery. Since we didn’t do anything to earn these benefits, they’re worth feeling guilty over.

Things that benefit you that come from your work, are earned and not something to be guilty over. Some examples include learning from the good role models around you, making good financial decisions, working hard at what you do no matter what level you start at. If having brown hair were an advantage I guess dying your hair would count as well.

People’s condition is a mix of privilege and work. People without privilege can work hard and do well, people with privilege can waste it entirely. But it’s easier to do well if you have a better starting position.

In my perfect world we’d all have the same starting position; our finishing position would depend on what we do after that.

This year, I paid off my house and started saving properly. I’m 31 so consider myself very well off… and yes, with that comes guilt.

My brother has made so many poor financial decisions. So out of guilt, I loaned him $65K AND let his entire family move in with me, rent-free. He subsequently quit his job and is doing nothing.

Now I feel like I’ve been taken advantage of, and it was my guilt that put me in this position!

Wow! I just linked back to this post and the comments are wonderful to read. The post is good, but what makes this blogging thing so fantastic is the shared experiences. That alone is an embarrassment of riches. I wish my mom and sister would get on the internet, but they refuse, to their own detriment.

As far as feeling guilty. Mea culpa. I’m not rich money wise, but I know I’m rich, if that makes sense. Certainly I have money, but my richness is derived from gratitude. Gratitude for the sun, the air we breathe, my family, and especially the commenters on this board:-) I wonder if I were to become poor (materially) would I not be happy?

I have a few rich relatives. I guess there is some envy there, but I’m surprised at how unhappy one of them is. So the rich I don’t feel a lack, but with the poor, I wish I could give them all a million dollars. (Though I don’t have that:-)

I was raised by very frugal parents on a farm. I entered the workforce at 20 (1980)and now 32 years later, I feel like I’ve worked hard, but know that I mis-managed my money at times. I furthered my education, switched careers when economiuc conditions demanded it, paid for a house and generally got along, but I also spent money foolishly on useless things. When my father died I received some money that paid off the remainder of my mortgage. I felt guilty, but overtime I also committed to cleaning up my financial act and have adopted a much more frugal lifestyle where I am very conscious about what I spend and on what. Recently, my immediate family sold the family farm and we each received a substantial sum money and now I am confused by the amount of guilt I feel about being financially secure. I am relieved and extremely grateful, but I am also feeling awkward as if all the work I did in the past is now undermined by receiving money. I am also somewhat depressed and anxious. I have enjoyed reading these posts and have got some good ideas about values – I have always thought about setting up a scholarship fund and I am thinking about how to achieve better balance in my life and giving back to the community, something I never really did in the past except through financial contributions when I could afford it. I feel somewhat off kilter about the future and will now be more aware about self-destructive behaviors that could manifest.

My parents (both with high education) from some accident lived in a poor area in the poorest 9-floor house of the street. Due to the architecture (the house had a space for a cosy yard) people from the house gathered in the yard, both kids and adults. I lived there until 14, then we moved.

I remember people there, some adults, some kids I was playing with. They were same people as others, I loved some of them, but… may I use the world ‘stupid’? They just did all the stupid things people can do. Have fun instead of studying, be cinical about life, sacrifice yourself for a family, laugh on other people, rely on your family instead of becoming financially sustainable – all kind of things which leads to the small profit in short term and big losses in long term. Even if they had a chance to get out of poverty, they wouldn’t use it. If to talk using only logic (without any compassion) they deserved their poverty in a sense their actions led to poverty.

But you know what? They are people, same as us. It is possible to understand only when you are friends with them. And – together with that – they just never had a chance to learn about long term things. No one teached them. No one cared about them in childhood. They tried to live the best way they could in that environment, and because environment was poor and uneducated, they became the same. My family was different because my parents had university degree. My mother pressed me hard to study at school because it was the only way for me to make my way in life. Their mothers didn’t. They just didn’t know that’s its important. And that’s the most scaring thing to understand.

Now I am in a very good position. I will not become extra rich, but I have stable position in middle class, even maybe for upper middle for my kids. I am young, have good health, some good contacts, good education. I am ok. But sometimes I recall the mother of one of my friends of that time – overweight, with low income, family of four in a studio flat. They did their best to get out of poverty, but…. I cannot do anything with that.

And yea, I really can do nothing. When I was younger, I was very active in social initiatives. But the main problem is their mindset or equally education. If you give them money, they will stay poor. They need to change habits, to start thinking about future, etc – that’s key thing. It’s about learning. But everyone who was teaching, coaching or dealing with poor people (I did all) knows how difficult it is to teach. Especially for adults, almost impossible, unless they decided to change their life. Only kids and young people, 30 is somewhere the upper limit. How to help poor adults – I don’t know. Maybe only supporting therapy or smth like that.

I wrote quite a lot but this is what touches me. I hope I will be able to contribute later, with more experience and resources. I was volunteering young, but it was not very effective.

And last. I read only this blogpost, but I like the name of the blog. If you are lucky, if you are moving towards being rich, try to involve your (!!!!close) friends and relatives. Try to make them work hard too. Try to make them learn about life too. It will slow down the progress, but you will get rich with a bigger crowd and (one more important benefit) you will have with whom to socialize. I once heard lecture of one very rich man, he told ‘don’t trust anyone’ – he don’t have friends. That’s very sad old years.

And please, don’t feel guilty :) Be proud that you created wealth. Please :)

With love,
Anna

Here is my simple take… My identity isn’t defined by my bank account. I believed that when I made 40k, and I believe it when I made 100k. I actually have a great salary, have what I consider a reasonable home and while still have some student loans, they are very low interest and I’m plugging away at them. My identity is based on the fact that 1) I’ve been happily married for 15 years and 2) have two great kids who I believe I’m raising right. 3) I’m also a person of great faith so I’m active in my church and in giving back to my community. For me, my income should be a resource to help me be the best that I can in those 3 areas. If things have been crazy at work and maybe my time with my kids was sacrificed, then to me, that Disney Cruise isn’t a lavish, foolish waste… It’s a blessing that I am able to give my kids and family some awesome time together. If my church has a project they are working on to help others and I can drop $500 bucks on it… Awesome. I think for me, that phrase of great power comes great responsibility is golden. I would suggest if there is guilt in this situation, that individual might need to do some soul searching on who they are and how they are fueling what they believe in!