When Less is More: The Importance of Perceived Value
The things we buy have an absolute value — the price we pay for them — but they also possess relative perceived values. Not everything with the same price holds the same value to me. An $80 pair of work boots might be worth much more to me than an $80 sweater or an $80 meal in a restaurant.
And I can often (not always) derive more value from something cheap than from a more expensive equivalent. Our discussion about wine last week is a perfect example: a good $8 bottle of wine is more valuable to me than an excellent $80 bottle of wine. It’s difficult for me to detect a $72 difference between two wines. I get good value for that first $8, but the excess is an exercise in diminishing returns. (Plus, a lifestyle of good $8 bottles of wine is sustainable; a lifestyle of excellent $80 bottles is not.)
A night at the opera
Here’s an extended example. I enjoy live theater. On occasion, I pay to see a play or — more often — a musical.
A couple of years ago, Kris and I went to the opera for the first time. We dressed up, drove downtown, met friends at an expensive restaurant, and then joined the crowd for a performance of Mozart’s Don Giovanni. The night cost us over $200. We had an okay time.
Last year, we did the same thing. We dressed up, drove downtown, met friends at an expensive restaurant, and then joined the crowd for a performance of Mozart’s Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute). Again we spent over $200. Again we had an okay time.
We also attend many amateur theatrical performances. One of Kris’ co-workers is in a community theater, and we’ve been to see two of his shows. It’s not high art. The plays are cheesy, but they’re fun. The total cost is about $12 per event: $5 each for admission plus $2 for popcorn. But our main source of live theater has been small-town high school productions. These are always inexpensive and usually, well, interesting.
Sky Masterson finds value in gambling.
Surprisingly, I have just as much fun watching the neighbor kid as Sky Masterson in Guys and Dolls as I do watching a professional as Don Giovanni. Yes, it’s entertaining to be part of the whole opera-going experience: fancy restaurant, fancy clothes, fancy music. But it’s just as entertaining, and far cheaper, for me to eat dinner at Dairy Queen and then to catch a high school performance of You Can’t Take it With You or Oklahoma!
I’m not saying that a sixteen-year-old singing “I Cain’t Say No” is the same as watching a professional belt out the Queen of the Night’s “Der Hölle Rache” aria — few things can compare. What I’m saying is that for the cost in time and money, I get far greater value from attending community theater and watching the neighbor girl sing “I Cain’t Say No”.
Making the most of perceived value
This notion of perceived value goes to the heart of how we use our money. When we spend on things that give us little or no value, we’re wasting our income, our work, our energy. When we buy out of habit, when we spend compulsively, we obtain little in return for our efforts.
Over the past two years, I’ve worked hard to use my money in ways that bring me the most value. To that end I try to:
- Buy things I need — or truly want.
- Buy things I will use.
- Buy things that possess quality.
- Buy things used or on discount.
- Buy things I can afford.
Seeking value is a new way for me to shop. It’s a conscious process. I’m more mindful of my choices. I buy less Stuff, but I’m happier with the purchases I do make. If I make decisions that reflect my values, and that bring me commensurate pleasure, my money has been put to good use.
I’m glad to have been to the opera twice, but we didn’t return this year, and we don’t have plans to go anytime soon. That $200 per trip? I’d rather save it for home repairs or a vacation or a new car. Or to go see 20 community theater performances. These will provide me with greater value for my dollar. (Your mileage may vary.)
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There are 71 comments to "When Less is More: The Importance of Perceived Value".
I enjoy theatrical performances more than most people. I really do. But I don’t think I would pay $200 to see ANY performance. 🙂
I can usually get good seats at my local opera house for much less than $100, but better still, my community arts center offers often high-quality shows for about $15 a pop.
It’s important to support the arts, but it’s not necessary to pay an arm and a leg to catch a good performance.
Yup.
Buying for value outweighs buying for want.
When you buy for value, it will genuinely be used and will become a great buy but when you buy for want, then you’re buying it because you “think” you need it. This way, you might not even use it and end up wasting it away only to be resold at a lower price.
May I suggest a possible third way in this scenario that has the potential of getting you the best of both worlds?
A night at the opera doesn’t have to cost $200 (unless you purchase Orchestra seats and Renee Flemming is in town). You *could* choose to skip the fancy dinner and make the opera itself the event. You could also go to other (less pricey) professional theatrical shows (where you live has TONS of excellent theatre).
I’m not eschewing the community or high schools shows. By all means, go see them if you derive enjoyment from that. But is it not a *necessity* to over-spend to go see professional theatre.
When I go to the movies, I NEVER purchase anything at the concession stand. That’s not why I go there. I’m there for the movie. And the movie is my “fun” money spending. By not purchasing a soda and popcorn, I can go see more movies (which is what I really enjoy), rather than feel bloated by the over-sized popcorn and soda.
I know that’s not the way it is for everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with that. This is just a thought on a Third Way. 🙂
This is very insightful! I certainly agree. I couldn’t even fully enjoy an $80 bottle of wine because I’d be thinking too much about the cost. Of course, I can spend $1,000 on a new computer without batting an eye. Of course, my wife doesn’t fully see the perceived value in this!
Purchasing decisions are definitely influenced by one’s perceived value.
One thing that’s important to me in spending decisions is making choices that support the world being the way I want it to be–for instance, I buy my food locally because an economy where all food is trucked or shipped or flown in from long distances away scares me. Supporting local theater is more important to me than supporting flown-in opera productions, and they’re both more important to me than supporting Hollywood.
I’ve found that being completely honest with myself has helped me find value much more easily. Sometimes the hard truth is that I don’t have fine taste (the value for me in cheap champagne), and sometimes it’s that I’m more materialistic in key ways (the value of nice clothes). And this ties in perfectly with your piece on adult allowances: having a limit and a timeframe also helps me make much better decisions about value.
Maybe I’m a snob, but I couldn’t even compare the opera with a high school play. Not that I wouldn’t find the high school play enjoyable, but a good opera performance can move me to tears. I also used to sing in competitions, and my college roommate studied vocal performance and opera, not to mention I took some opera studies courses “for fun,” so with all that, I’m sure I’m biased.
Two weeks ago, I saw Andrea Bocelli sing the part of Turiddu in Cavalleria Rusticana. You know how people have life lists of things they want to experience before they die? I checked one off the list that night.
It’s not that I haven’t enjoyed high school plays in the past. It’s just that I don’t like them enough to buy a ticket, however cheap, and get off the couch and go spend a couple hours there. I’d rather stay at home with Netflix. But, I don’t go to the opera that often, only for performances that I really want to see, and we don’t do expensive dinners beforehand.
I also think that if people learn about what was happening around the time the opera was written, it’s much more enjoyable. I think the context is important, as with any piece of art, but that’s just my two cents. 🙂
A thing is priced higher in one market than another usually for good reason. But the good’s value is constant. What you want to do in all circumstances is acquire the target at a price at or below its value (like a value investing approach to shopping). Often this means finding a market that does this inherently (used goods on ebay, for example), but much more frequently it requires the consumer to move the price through negotiation or discounting.
In other words, when there is something we want to buy, the first question should be to ascertain the value of it in units of dollars. The process of ascertaining this value is price discovery – comparison shopping, collecting discounts, cutting deals or haggling with salesmen, waiting for sales, etc. When you reach the point where different methods applied in different markets to the same (or equivalent) good are resolving to roughly the same number, you’ve discovered the actual price, i.e. the most accurate price reflection of value.
Now, it’s sort of pointless to do this with $40 items because the savings in real terms won’t be that great, but you need to get skilled at it when it comes time to buy a house, because you could end up leaving thousands or tens of thousands on the table. I’ve found it to be an important mental framework to use, even if you choose to ignore its results for the sake of convenience.
It’s not about saving, it’s more about searching for the value, discovering the universal price, for the good.
I’m in the middle of reading a book right now called, “Deluxe” by Dana Thomas, and this is all I can think – how perceived value is such an illusion!
Great examples. I have the same mindset, although to be honest we haven’t patronized our local high school musical or theatre company like we should have. I’ll be putting that on my list for next year.
I totally agree with EscapeVelocity. In addition to high school and community productions, our city’s university has a great drama department, and a lot of the local churches have concerts this time of year.
And going local also applies to sports. We Canadians love our hockey, but going to junior level or provincial league games is far less expensive than NHL games — and the community spirit can’t be beat! (Toronto’s farm league the Marlies have a better record that the Leafs!)
And to second Elizabeth’s comment on sports, consider women’s sports teams. Your professional, college, or amateur women’s sports team will be happy for the attendance, and it may be easier to obtain tickets for an equally exciting game. (Of course, once everyone catches on the demand will balance out…)
I agree that community events can bring much more joy and value than a large event with a stadium full of people. I loved watching minor league baseball when I lived close to two major league baseball clubs. There was a lot more interaction with people and the hot dogs were much cheaper too!
Agreed with everything JD said. That’s one of the several spending points I’m trying to get across to the kids.
My family currently lives in a flat in a duplex we bought so that we can have a stay-at-home parent and comfortably weather job interruptions — that’s “higher perceived value” for us than having us both working for pay and maintaining a bigger house.
Like JD, DH and I spend quite a bit of money on live performances. We go to the pro shows to be shaken and stirred, and the amateur shows to take the kids for cheap and to support performing friends. (We’re also amateur performers, so we’re in “that crowd”.)
Experiences are of higher perceived value to us than stuff. Travel is on our list of higher value items — we’d rather drive old cars and live in smaller quarters and take the kids abroad every year or two to explore the world with us. Also, classes and hobbies are of higher value than video games, and cable TV. We’re very open about our spending values with our kids. They don’t necessarily agree that doing a road trip to New Orleans would be cooler than getting a particular toy for Christmas, but maybe eventually?
How one spends one’s money reflects one’s values. Money is a tool and should be used to enrich your life whether it be wine, theatre tickets, electonic gadgets or a rockin’ pair of shoes!
I do appreciate an $80 sweater or a $100 skirt or trousers- I just buy them when they show up the thrift shop for $3 or $5(if I don’t wait for half- price days)- I like my skirts and trousers lined and decently made-I just can’t bear to pay the price at a regular store.
I will spend the money to see a Broadway play(although I try to get discount tickets) as well as see local(but I live in a big city) and school productions.
I totally agree! For the past three years, our annual Christmas date has been the local high school’s madrigal Christmas dinner/show. $15/person for dinner and a very entertaining show. We like live music, but we don’t have discerning enough ears to appreciate the professional performance that much more than the reasonably good amateur. If we did, the value attached to the professional performance might be much higher for us.
JD,
I think you are spot on in your article. What you’ve found out is that you don’t value the opera for the price that a night at the opera costs.
We all place our value on a given product/service/experience- and it can be wildly different than others.
I’m kind of distraught that you’d equate community theater with ‘cheesy’. My local community/civic theater is often better than anything the professionals put on. Each of these actors works hard in their spare time to put on these productions. We have Doctors, teachers, businessmen and women.
@Taleah (#19)
I don’t equate all community theater with cheesy. Trust me, however, when I say that the two shows we’ve seen are cheesy. They’re meant to be. They’re like old-time Dastardly Dan stuff.
I would also add that in order to live a frugal lifestyle you have to evaluate what emotional value is added by the price you pay. What I mean by this is some people enjoy something BECAUSE of how much they paid for it. Others put more value because of the deal they got. Some people like the opera because $200 for an evening means it’s exclusive and they like that feeling. It also means they had to have $200 to spend on an evening and it makes them feel like they have more money than they do. NEITHER HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL EVENTS OF THE EVENING OR INTRINSIC VALUE THEREIN. But the price adds to the emotional value and therefore the value to you.
Living a frugal life means changing your mindset so you get more emotional payoff from getting more intrinsic value for less money.
I think the key point, one that is not really explicit in the article, is that you are lucky enough to have tastes that can be satisfied by relatively cheap shows/wine/meals, etc. . .
The same is true for me as well. However, there are some people, whether they have perfect pitch or are an opera snob, who probably couldn’t stand watching a high school production and where only a big (SF, NY) city production would satisfy their tastes. Some people need the best and most expensive, while others derive enjoyment from good, but not great, things.
Keep an eye on colleges if you want to see professional performers at bargain basement prices.
This year, I was lucky enough to see two world-class bassists in one evening, for five dollars at ASU. Back when I was in college, I got to see Don Giovanni performed by students and faculty ($5), and a national jazz singer ($3!) who blew my mind.
I find I have a similar reaction to restaurants and dinners our much of the time. When I go to a cheap, interesting place and spend $10 for dinner, I often feel great about the experience. When I go to a fancy restaurant and spend $50 for dinner, I often get the same amount or slightly more total enjoyment out of it, but feel disappointed because some part of me things I should get 5 times more enjoyment than I get from the cheap place. My enjoyment-per-dollar is much higher at a less expensive restaurant.
Great post! I’ve been thinking about perceived value a lot lately, especially around the gift giving holidays. We live in a world where the value of the gift sometimes depends on the price the gifter paid. For example: If I gave a gift worth $60 and only actual paid $30 (because I got it for a steal), does that lessen the value of my gift? Maybe not, if the recipient doesn’t know the actual price I paid, but what if that person did. There are members in my family who tend to think that you must spend a certain amount per individual regardless of the price savings you might have gained. I on the other hand think the perceived value of that gift is what truly matters.
I agree with Sara, in comment #6 – it’s important to know ourselves and our tastes! I live in the bay area and can go to the SF Opera for $25 bucks (yeah.. very very very very high up and far from the stage). Even so, I find that much as I’d like to love opera, I really don’t. I’ve heard a few arias in passing that are lovely, but the experience doesn’t move me.
I thought of trying more expensive seats, but I’d have to at least quadruple my expense to get even remotely decent seats. All in all, I feel like it’s out of my interest and price range, so now I’m going to keep my eye out for local theater options.
Also, if I do want to try opera again, I’m going to track down some of the movie theater simulcasts from the Met. The tickets are still pricey (~20 bucks) but the seats will be MUCH better.
Following Pastabagel@8’s comment on determining value through price discovery:
Sometimes people do benchmark the value of a good by its market price and then, when this good goes on a mega-sale (like now, when merchants are attempting to woo reluctant spenders with deep discounts this christmas season), they sort of forget that getting a $3,000 TV for $600 is only a “steal” if their personal value for the TV exceeds $600. Price discovery can help you get a better sense of a reasonable market price, but ultimately, it’s the personal value you place on the item that matters.
I’m not sure how far we can take a value investing analogy into shopping for consumption goods, simply because it’s unclear to me how we would define and measure the “fundamentals” of a TV. There’s no PE ratio, etc., to examine.
Perhaps the analogy would work better if we could buy and sell items the way we do stocks. But it seems that unlike stocks, where buyers don’t really care that someone else has “owned” the stock before them, most consumer goods lose market value once they’ve been “used” – where “used” can mean brand-new in the box. The only objective value of these kinds of goods I can think of is resale value (discounted for your time/effort costs of actually selling it). If you can buy a TV for $300 and resell it to someone else for $600 net of your time costs, maybe that is legitimately a steal.
Of course, talking about buying a house complicates matters, since people will simultaneously view this purchase as an investment and a consumption good, with all the craziness that ensues.
I’m not trying to imply that Pastabagel is wrong, but merely pointing out that even something that looks as objective as price discovery may not be enough to keep a thoughtful, frugal person from making a poor purchase decision based on some illusory ideal of “true value” rather than personal value.
Funny you should mention those three plays specifically – Guys and Dolls, Oklahoma! and You Can’t Take It With You are all plays that I’ve been involved with at my (now former) high school. The first two as a stage manager, the last one just last month as their director!
I heartily agree – community theaters and a high school with dedicated students can provide gems of performances, and the cost makes it a downright steal (often less than the cost of seeing a movie!). Plus, you just know these places really need your support during bad economic times. I worry sometimes that with all the budget cuts, things like drama club will be cut from high school programs. The only way to help prevent it is to go buy some tickets, I think! (And vote on the budget, if you live in the district.)
@Lucky–Very true. I saw opera performances put on by my university, and they were all very good and very inexpensive…sometimes free. I know the students were happy to have an audience, too, since my roomie was often one of the performers.
There are inexpensive ways to enjoy operas, if you’re actually into the music and performances, that is, and it’s not all about expensive dinners and premium tickets.
Andrea Bocelli is pop music!
(a pop SINGER)
Sally@27:
I’m not sure how far we can take a value investing analogy into shopping for consumption goods, simply because it’s unclear to me how we would define and measure the “fundamentals” of a TV. There’s no PE ratio, etc., to examine.
Actually, a TV is a very easy case. You have those technical metrics to compare TV’s across brands: resolution, response time, bit-depth, refresh rate, contrast ratio, brightness, etc. This is especially true in the case of modern high end electronics, like TVs, where the major components of each device for all the brands are made by only a few companies. (e.g. 5 LCD panel manufactures make 80% of the LCD panels on the market, and none of those 5 are Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, or Sharp (http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800463334_480700_NT_1c8a583f.HTM))
It’s much harder for something like an opera or a restaurant, where almost everything is subjective.
I guess the larger point is to divorce emotion from the determination of price. The emotional component I think establishes the value, the determination of price is a completely objective process divorced from emotion.
My husband LOVES the Charles Shaw “extreme value” wine at Trader Joe’s, which I think costs $3 a bottle here ($1.99 in Cali – “Two Buck Chuck”) – I feel like just making the bottle ought to cost more than this, I wonder how they make a profit?? He now refuses to drink anything else, because every time he does, he keeps saying “this may be good, but I know a good wine that only costs $3!!”
The only comment on this in the previous post was to say ‘don’t buy it because if it only costs $2, it must not be made of high quality ingredients’… well, we are only concerned with the quality of the taste and the price. 🙂 As you point out, perception is everything, all the branding and advertising in the world don’t matter if you love the product.
I feel the same way about going to the movies. I have a hd tv at home. I just can’t see the value in going when I can wait and enjoy a film in the comfort of my house with home cooked food.
I like J.D.’s post and what I came away with is that people put different values on different experiences/goods/services. Someone might value really good wine so that $80 bottle is a real treat and they are willing to spend the money. Someone might value really good food so they spend more on fancy eating experiences at home and out and about.
For me, I value travel and art. When we travel we stay at either very high end accomodations or very different/unique accomodations, both of which tend to be pricey. We just returned from a Thanksgiving weekend trip and we stayed in a unique historic Inn right on the beach and I paid the extra to have the biggest room with the large deck overlooking the water. Some might say, yikes why would you pay so much for a room, you’re just sleeping there, but for me (not so much for Mr. Sam) I value that extra special room with the view. Same thing with art, although this is one that is an issue for Mr. Sam and since we have a $300 agreement (anything over $300 has to be discussed an agreed), I made a choice some time ago to only buy original art. And while I certainly can buy some lovely original art that is reasonably priced, my art purchases tend to be on the pricey side. A few years back I bought a beautiful, original painting and paid for it in installments ($X a month until it was paid off). I value art and I willing to pay for it.
I kept “value” in mind when we were looking for a house; I kept on telling our real estate agent that we were looking for a “value property”. Our agent didn’t get what I was talking about at first, but she eventually figured out that we basically, 1. wouldn’t settle for a home and 2. were looking to get as much for our dollars as possible (in the way of house, property, etc.).
Vince Scordo
Good post. I try to spend money that has a higher perceived value for me with my health. For example I will spend money on the gym, vitamins, sport teams, because my activity level and health are important to me. I have a higher perceived value for all of those than what they actually cost because exercise is very important to me. I hate spending money on nightlife and wasting it on expensive drinks. sure I’m having a good night with friends, but I don’t get the same value out of it. That’s my thing, what are other people’s?
😀 Two buck chuck and opera are really good examples of value being personal. We used to drink two buck chuck, but our tastes have changed, and we no longer enjoy it. It tasted fine as long as we didn’t know what good wine tasted like. I still don’t see the value in wine over $40, but I’m happy when I can find something I really enjoy for $10-25.
We would NEVER pay $200 for a night of opera. We just don’t have a taste for it. I’ve paid $30 each for theater tickets, and felt cheated; I’ve paid $10 for rush seats and thought it a fantastic bargain. (It helped that the show we saw for $10 was waaaaaaay better than the show we saw for $30, at the same theater!) So I’m likely to spend slightly more for wine than for theater and be happy with the value I’m getting.
Everyone will have a different experience.
🙂
I have been sitting here navel gazing and asking myself “What WILL I pay more for just because of personal value?”
Most everything that comes to mind doesn’t fit the criteria. I am willing to pay more for intrinsic value. Either quality (ex: we buy nice power tools to last) or performance (ex: We have a nice computer for DH to run simulators for school).
I feel so lame! I don’t drink. We don’t go out. I wear jeans to work (and don’t care about clothes). I’ll sometimes go out and get a really nice steak, but only when I’m travelling and work is picking up the tab.
HOWEVER, I find myself paying a bit more for name brand groceries. Not the ones that are the same (like ketchup), but I will not buy generic cereal, cheese (at least not to be eaten raw or as main flavor), peanut butter, soda, etc. In fact I find myself paying quite a bit extra for imported Coke that is made with sugar instead of corn syrup. I restrict myself to one or two per week but they give me personal satisfaction disproportionate to the price difference.
A lot depends, as you say, on what you value. Once upon a time, I was very poor, and there was stuff I never thought about; most material goods were in the “going to the museum” category – look, don’t bring home. There was a brief period of “affluence” – to me, anyway – and I bought things I had never had (thriftily). I’m a little older, and while I still look wistfully at things I’d like to own, I realize that (a)I’d rather not OWN any more clutter; (b)I don’t want to LEAVE BEHIND clutter for more family to have to go through; and (c)one of the best gifts you can sometimes give those you love is NO CLUTTER. Give a gift that doesn’t take up room and doesn’t need to be dusted! Clear out your garage before you die so those you love don’t have to when you’re gone!! – and I’m deadly serious. My brother’s best friend had the same attitude, and he and my brother set a date to do just that – and then he died, unexpectedly. And the garage still needs to be cleared out. So there are different ways to value different things.
I’ve been thinking about this all day, and come up with the following:
I love backpacking, I’ve lived out of my pack in more cities than I can count, and even now as a professional when I travel for fun I end up in a hostel more often than anywhere else. I don’t need to spend more than $20 on a nights sleep when I won’t be spending any time there awake anyway!
But when I travel for work I need to be up in the morning smelling good and being well rested. I also need internet in my room, or other non-public area, and a desk that I can work at in the evenings. I won’t often spend more than $100 on a night, but sometimes it is more like $250 depending on the city, and I value every dollar of it!
Sometimes you have pay more to get more, sometimes it is worth it, sometimes it isn’t. What you decide to spend the ‘extra’ money on is a statement of your values. When I am working I value the nights sleep more than I value the money.
I equate your post with having dinner at McDonald’s vs. a ‘fancy’ restaurant. I suppose someone may value both meals at the same or a similar level (although you may be hard pressed to find that certain someone) … I think though, that deep down you are justifying the saving of money by diminishing the value of the more expensive choice. This then, is not a proper value equation. It would be more honest for you to say that you can’t afford the opera, and that a cheaper alternative exists in the forms of Dairy Queen and high school theater.
Shortly after college I bartended at a pretty exclusive wine/champagne/cognac bar. We were required to attend tastings regularly. What I learned is that after the first drink, it didn’t really matter all that much! After about the 3rd or 4th brand we were trying, it could have been any swill. I had the opportunity to try some really good products – the opus ones, and le grand dames, but I learned they really aren’t that much better than a glass from a decent bottle under $10. Which is good because with the job, mortgage, and responsibilities of later years, I don’t have champagne tastes on my more realistic beer budget!
I’m digging the value-investing analogy because that’s the first thing that came to mind as I read the post. Sure, I just happen to be reading The Snowball, the new authorized biography about Warren Buffett. But this idea of finding a personal value of a given thing is neat. Is it a perfect analogy? No, but that doesn’t take away from its neatness.
I think about this a lot, and have enjoyed all the posts and reflection. It’s tough for me to admit that my sensibilities aren’t refined enough to enjoy supposedly higher qualities of some items, but the honesty is healthy for my ego.
My ‘cheap is okay because I can’t really tell the difference’ list:
mac and cheese; dishes/china; rice; blue jeans (thanks, goodwill!); theatre/live performances; red wine; budget hotel rooms
My ‘I’ll pay more for real quality’ list:
kitchen knives; beer; socks; peanut butter; carrots (yes, really); ink pens; books; fruit
Then there’s a long ‘I wouldn’t want it at any price’ list, and a ‘not enough to pay for it’ list, and a few more lists too!
Over the years I have found that money itself has relative value also. I think a $20 is worth less to me now (not just because of inflation or buying power) than it was before. But maybe if I adjust my perspective a little again, I can start treating it like the $20 I did before.
I love live events – however we choose which events we go to carefully. We have wonderful free events in the summer as well as some spectacular events which are under $20. For a treat we will go to a production that comes into town and pay attention to which seats we get – ussually second or third tier – but the sound is still good.
*For those of you who say you don’t like opera but would like to think about the period of the shows that you have seen. Just as music today is very different from the ’50’s operas very greatly as well. Listen to music from different time frames and see what you like best. I love works from the Romantic era (1800’s) especially Puccini!
I found this post a perfect example of reverse snobbery. You didn’t have to have the expensive dinner -or the pricy seats. I’m an opera fan and don’t do either of those things. I don’t think there’s a comparison between professional opera (or the symphony,if it comes to that and amateur musicals or school plays, either.
We pick our priorities and the values we place upon them. Personally, your choices in this instance would make me break out in hives and you’ve made it clear that my opera choices would effect you similarly. However, mine is the correct choice for me and I imagine – yours is for you.
This hit a really wrong note with me and I wonder what you would have done or felt if you really fell in thrall with your evenings at the opera.
If I weren’t sick, I’d write a long reply, but I just don’t have it in me.
Trust me that there’s no reverse snobbery going on here. I like the opera. I just don’t like it $200 worth. I agree that maybe I should try a cheaper version of the evening. My point wasn’t to denigrate opera. It was to show how I didn’t get value for my money when I was paying that much.
Great post and I definitely agree. I go to one or two pop/rock concerts each year because there are only a few that I really care about and don’t mind shelling out some money for those. I don’t mind a high price for a Broadway show or a symphony concert that I really want to see. I don’t care much about attending sporting events so I’ll only go if it’s a cheap seat because that’s all it’s worth to me.
It gets a little tricky if my friends don’t find the same value in certain events, for example if I don’t mind the ticket price but my friend balks at it, or vice versa. But they’re my friends for a reason, so obviously we do have some common interests and find some events that we all want to attend at the right price for everyone.
Elizabeth says: “For those of you who say you don’t like opera but would like to think about the period of the shows that you have seen. Just as music today is very different from the ’50’s operas very greatly as well. Listen to music from different time frames and see what you like best. I love works from the Romantic era (1800’s) especially Puccini!”
Not only that–it has to do with where you are in your life, too. I never thought I would be an opera fan (though I grew up with classical music–I’ve just never liked classical w/vocal)… this summer, while in London for research, I went to Covent Garden for the heck of it. I’d seen one opera before (a college production which, while okay, didn’t do anything for me)–but I figured I might as well give the pros a shot. I bought one of the higher-end “day tickets” (the Royal Opera holds about 70 tickets for same-day sale), figuring it might well be the last opera I’d ever see.
Well, it blew my mind–I can say without exaggeration it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I don’t just mean because it was musically beautiful, but because it was intense _on every level_… at least as physically intense as the time my sister-in-law let me test-drive her Porsche!
Would I have had the same reaction at another point in my life? Maybe, maybe not. It’s now an important part of my life, though, so I budget for it–and I’m lucky to live in a part of the country where you _can_ get decent seats if you plan well. In NYC, seats in the boxes at the Met are just $15 ea.–you just have to grab them before they sell out. And to come full circle to Ramit’s original point–I would much prefer to pay $15 a dozen times to be relatively near the orchestra for 12 performances [though with the risk of not being able to see a corner of the stage], than pay $180 once for a “premium” seat at one opera. As to dinner beforehand, it’s usually a sandwich! You just have to be honest with yourself about what things are really important to you–and you have to have enough imagination to recognize that “opera” doesn’t have to mean “a night at the opera as it’s snootily understood, i.e., with fancy clothes and an expensive dinner beforehand.”
Not to diss people who want to try the latter once or twice, of course!–just saying that it actually is possible to love/enjoy opera even if you’re not rich enough to have your chauffeur (or even a cabbie) take you. And it’s possible to discover you suddenly have an abiding passion for something you never thought you’d _ever_ be into…
Sam @ #35: For me, I value travel and art. When we travel we stay at either very high end accomodations or very different/unique accomodations, both of which tend to be pricey.
I love to travel, too–but for me it’s the destination itself that is the point of it. When it comes to accommodations, I’m far more likely to stay in a hostel, or shop around online for the cheapest acceptable hotel so I have more money to spend on local food and other experiences. And I like staying in hostels because I get the chance to meet all kinds of people from all over the world; since I travel alone, meeting my fellow guests also gives me the chance to find activity partners to go sightseeing with, or to try out a restaurant.
(Another thing I do to cut travel costs if I’m staying in hotels is depart on Sunday and fly home on Friday, because Sunday-Thursday hotel room rates are lower than weekend rates. And I’m willing to go off-season, in most cases–I go to New Orleans every year in May, immediately after Jazz Fest is over and before the weather gets too sultry. It’s dirt cheap, and still a great time, and during the week there are far fewer drunks stumbling around the Quarter. But I digress…)
For me, food is the thing I’m most willing to spend money on when traveling. I don’t spend time in places that aren’t known for good local food. I’m pretty much indifferent to where I sleep, so long as it’s clean and safe, but lousy food? That’s a vacation-killer. [laughs]
sally @ #27: Sometimes people do benchmark the value of a good by its market price and then, when this good goes on a mega-sale (like now, when merchants are attempting to woo reluctant spenders with deep discounts this christmas season), they sort of forget that getting a $3,000 TV for $600 is only a “steal” if their personal value for the TV exceeds $600.
I caught myself in this just recently, when the chance to buy a really nice LCD TV at a steep discount presented itself.
And then I pulled up short–my current TV still works; why think about replacing it? And not only do I watch very little TV as it is, but I’ve pondered getting rid of cable TV altogether. That TV was a great deal–but was it a great deal for me?
I thought about how much I would honestly be willing to spend on a new TV on any given day, should the old one crap out. I decided that $250 was perfectly reasonable, and that $400 was my absolute upper limit. The TV on sale was $700. And yes, it had a much nicer picture than my 15-year-old 19″ TV, but did that really matter to me? No. My personal value for “a TV” does not exceed $400, and in fact is significantly less than that.
Great post. I think we could substitute many habits in your closing list.
* Buy things I need – or truly want.
* Buy things I will use.
* Buy things that possess quality.
* Buy things used or on discount.
* Buy things I can afford.
For example:
* Use Time for events I need – or truly want.
* Use Time for events I will use.
* Use Time for events that possess quality.
* Use Time for events that are used or on discount.
* Use Time for things I can afford.
-or-
* Eat Food that my body needs – or truly wants.
* Eat Food that my body will use.
* Eat Food that possess quality.
* Eat Food that is used or on discount. (coupons, doggie bags, left-overs)
* Eat Food that my body can afford. (if you exercise a ton, you can eat more if not, you can’t.)
JD and Kris,
I’d heartily recommend, if you are able to get over to the westside or Portland, the productions of Bag & Baggage.
http://www.bagnbloggage.com/history.html
Community theater, even having used the Octagonal Barn at the McMenamins Cornelius Pass Roadhouse for several of the productions in the past. (Macbeth and the very funny “The Complete Works of Shakespeare” among the several I’ve seen)
You know, this very idea prompted my husband and I to go on an extreme debt reduction plan. A year and a half ago, we learned that the performer Sting was going to play in our area. The minute the tickets went on sale, my husband bought “the best” (costing $400 for the 2 of us). A few months later, when the concert took place, we went out to dinner with a group, and my husband bought a round for the group. Well, in short, the evening cost nearly $550, and it wasn’t that enjoyable. (I could go on about the drunk peeing in front of us, but I won’t!)
Anyway, when the concert was over, and we were back to our day to day lives, I realized that had we applied that $550 to our mortgage, we would have been able to knock out 3 months worth of mortgage(principle). It was that very minute that I sat down with DH and said, look, if we have the kind of money to do a one night event, then we have the money to supercharge our debt repayment. So, we developed a plan to pay off the mortgage early. We stuck to the plan until last month, when we decided to stick the money in the money market account, as who knows what’s going to happen with this economy. In doing so, we’ve been able to knock down about 60% of what was owed on our principle, and now, much more goes to principle every month than last year. That feels much better than many concerts or shows. We still splurge a little, but it’ll be a long time before we ever do that again…a good lesson learned!
To my mind, this is probably the best GRS post I’ve read (and I love local productions too!). It goes to the heart of happiness and the novel fact that lower consumption can definitely support human happiness — while leaving enough resources in place to support future generations. My site Diamond-Cut Life has many posts on this same topic. http://diamondcutlife.org/
Consumption smoothing is my motto. I will pay more for something if I deem it to be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. The value of the experience is worth the extra cost.
That said, my son and I have had some excellent nights out at our local High School football stadium this season. It’s cheap and the community spirit can’t be beaten!
You have a very good point, and I can agree with it entirely only because I entirely disagree with your example. 😉
My wife and I have a motto: “fewer, nicer”. We’ve both agreed that we’d rather have one stellar evening at the Opera each year — even if it costs us $400 — than to attend 10 other performances a year at $20 each. For us, the memory of that singular event is much more valuable than the little mundane memories of other items. (For us, the Opera is especially important: it’s how we met, it’s my wife’s degree, etc.)
We feel the same about wine. I find many bottles we absolutely adore in the $40-80 range; I’d rather have one of those a month than a $10-20 bottle each week.
This approach has also reduced a lot of clutter. I have two very nice suits ($600 each retail, but I took advantage of a 2-for-1 sale) and a handful of fine shirts ($80 each) for work. This will last me for several years, and takes up very little closet space.
So, in the end, I agree — value is not just about the cost paid, but the quality of what you purchase. And “quality” is subjective.
Ahem. Clearly, I meant 10 other performances at $40 each. Typo.
Pastabagel@27 – thanks for the clarification; I see where you’re coming from now.
Re: Chris in #22.
I agree that JD has tastes that can be met with a cheaper experience. I don’t think it was that he couldn’t afford it as another poster mentioned.
Maybe tastes as related to opera/music (esp. those with esp. high levels of training) can’t be easily changed, nor is it necessary..we. can adjust our tastes for food. When we moved to Poland and Kellogg’s Frosted Flakes were 4x the price of a store brand I informed my family that we were going to “learn to like” the cheaper ones. At first my family rebelled, but we did, and began eating only the cheaper ones. After a few years of eating the cheaper ones, my children were given real Kellogg’s upon arrival back in the states and they didn’t like them!
I have been thinking about this in relation to travel. I have the chance to go on a cheaper trip to Africa at HB but want to wait and save the money til I have enough to go for AI (all inclusive) as I will feel more pampered…and I want to feel pampered on my vacation. 🙂 So, for me, the value is in having it nice. However, I don’t HAVE to have it. I don’t get 10x the value out of a $50 meal as opposed to a $5 meal. IN fact, I don’t enjoy a $50 ‘cuz it costs too much–can’t help but think it is a waste of money.
I’m the opposite of the one poster who said she’d rather buy the real Coca Cola. I’m opposite. At almost $2 for 2liter (Coca Cola), if I’m going to drink soft drinks, I told my family we were going to drink the store brand that I can buy for under $1 for 2 liters. You can learn. I actually value the bubbly taste more than the actual “coca cola” brand taste. My tastes are much wider than that. Amy Daczyn ofo the Tightwad Gazette introduced me to that idea years and years ago.
When I travel, I value being able to eat out and get up and walk away from the mess. Thus, I don’t want to do picnics if I don’t have to. That’s part of what is valuable to me about vacations.
Not just Coca Cola, IMPORTED COCA COLA! Way more high brown than what the rest of you riff raff drink.
But that’s the point. I spend the same amount and get one soda and four glasses of water to your five sodas. It’s the same way with calories. I would rather have one sugar soda per week than a diet every day. It’s worth it to me.
The trick is being conscious of your tradeoffs. My grandmother got on my mom’s case for “wasting” money on long distance bills, but my mom never ate out while my grandmother did once per week. Talking to friends was my mom’s luxury, eating out was my grandmother’s. A key to budgeting (both money and calories) is knowing what your luxuries are, and keeping the list exclusive. When everything is a luxury then nothing is. You’re just a glutton.
As someone who worked in the opera industry, I am extremely curious as to why you felt you only had an “ok” time.
I don’t know where you live, so I don’t know what opera house you patronized.
Many opera houses have dine/ticket combos where local restaurants cut you a great deal – ask the box office.
Also, it is usually only mainfloor or orchestra seats that are so expensive – most operagoers don’t buy these seats unless they are hard-core fanatics or very well-heeled.
Buy a cheap seat and rent a pair of opera glasses, or bring your binoculars (and yes, men use them)
Rush tickets are often half-price, and the dress rehearsal is also usually sold as a ticketed event (with the understanding that you are watching a rehearsal, which can be a LOT of fun)
just a few choices…
Great post! I think the pop and popcorn is part of the fun of going to the movies. We like to wait for the cheap theater to get shows we like, spend $1 to get into the movie and buy the snacks. We do our fair share of checking out DVDs from the library (for free) and providing our own snacks, but when we do go to the theater, it’s for the buttery popcorn. LOL!
In the spirit of the season, I’m trying to get the grandparents to “buy” an experience this year for my boys rather than gifts. We let each sibling pick out a gift to get their brother. Last year we spent abut $50 on one of their gifts (from one brother to the other) and it was used for a couple of days and eventually got sold at a garage sale. Pitiful! This year I’d love it if we could do a fun dinner and then pack into a van with hot cocoa or cider and drive through a place with tons of holiday lights. We can visit in the car and talk about all the cool displays, enjoy our snacks and listen to our favorite holiday music. I’d bet that the memory of that would stick with my boys for a lifetime and be significantly cheaper than that darn toy!
Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so must value be. I wouldn’t pay much for opera or wine, but I’m willing to pay for a massage now and then or would install a remote-controlled gas fireplace if my next house doesn’t already have one. 🙂
I’m afraid I didn’t have time to read through all of the comments, so I apologize if this has been mentioned already.
Another option if you enjoy opera is to go see it in the movie theater. One of my professors mentioned this in class. Apparently they do professional recordings of live operas and you can go see them in a theater setting with surround sound and all the normal movie bells and whistles, and at a fraction of the cost of going to a live performance. I’ve yet to go to either a live or a prerecorded opera so I can’t compare the two, personally, but he seemed to like the experience for the price.
Here’s a little more info I found with a quick search: http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/hd_events_next.aspx
The diversity of comments just goes to show that the values we put on things are inevitably individual. If someone has a different value set about material possessions and experiences to me then what right have I to knock it?
If we all perceived the same value in the same things not only would the world be a boring place, but we would be playing into the hands of marketers who could hike up prices and make even more profit.
Like JD, I’m happy with wines at the cheaper end, and appreciate the taste just as much as I do a more expensive wine (also appreciating how much more of that taste I can have for the same money). In fact here in Greece I can get perfectly drinkable wine in plastic bottles or tetrapacks, even cheaper still than glass bottles.
I had a co-worker who was horrified by my ‘lack of taste’ and determined to educate me into better ways. Not surprisingly, she failed. It really doesn’t matter to me whether someone thinks I have taste or not, I’m confident in who I am and don’t feel a need to live up to anyone else’s value set.
Talking about the opera. Since my wife and I decided to live on a tighter budget, season tickets to the opera are out. A night at the opera is just too expensive. But I do miss opera. So, once in a while I still get an opera fix and we get cheaper tickets which cost a lot less than the good seats we used to get each season.
You don’t get the value with a professional vs. local for the same reason you don’t like expensive wine. You personally can’t tell the difference. Like they say, it’s an acquired taste. Once you notice the difference between two levels of something, it’s hard to go back unless it’s not something you care about.
I appreciate professional musicians because I can tell the difference. It’s one reason I don’t listen to a lot of pop music, the singing especially is often awful! I also won’t buy acrylic yarn for knitting with. Wine on the other hand, I do cheap because the good stuff tastes pretty similar to the cheap stuff. I also buy cheap purses, because while I know there’s more quality in the more expensive bag, I won’t get the value out of it, because I don’t use purses much, and I just don’t care.
In general for utility use/enjoyment, I agree that an $8 bottle (or a $15-20 3liter box, which comes out as between 3 and 7 dollars per bottle) is the way to go. I also would like to add that a higher price tag, although correllated with a higher quality in general, is no guarantee of an excellent wine. For that you usually need to combine higher price with either luck or knowledge about wine to pick out the right bottle.
So for most cases, I go for the sub-$10 a bottle stuff. It does the trick at a price I can afford to buy fairly regularly.
However, if you ever experience a truly *GOOD* wine, you will be immediately able to tell the difference.
I had one a few weeks ago by accident, and I was astonished. There was a complexity and layering of flavors that I had never experienced before. And it wasn’t a really expensive bottle either-a $16 Beaujolais.
It was leagues beyond the $8 bottles, and beyond all of the other $16 bottles I have had. I am also guessing that I will never find a wine like that in a box. But guess you could say it was an “outlier” statistically.
That being said, unless and until I start pulling in triple the amount of money that I am, there are no regular $16 bottles in the cards for me, let alone $50 bottles!!!!
Maybe all this worry about cost/value, etc, is hampering you’re enjoyment of the opera and other high-priced things.
While I am very much in favor of saving, and share a lot of the philosophy expounded at this site, I think the “economist” in me has to take a break sometimes and let other “irrational” personalities have their fun.
Every once in a while I “go crazy” for the good cause of a romantic night with a girlfriend, or a nice time with some good friends. The only way to do it is “all the way”, take the money you’re willing to spend and spend it as if there were no tommorow, have a good time, have an extra piece of cake :). No worries, today you’re a rich man.
Of course, I would never jepordize my personal finance for such things. But come on, $200 bucks twice in you’re life, and you couldn’t help analizing cost/benefit…. hmmmmm…. isn’t that too much?
What happens when J.D.’s friends read on the internet that he’d rather do home repair than go out with them to the opera again?