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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:31 pm
Posts: 405
The problem with illegal immigration isnt that laws need to be made, its that existing laws are not enforced. So, our wonderful state government made a law that states that the law needs to be enforced.

Mostly a complete waste of time. I sincerely doubt anything major comes of this law other than some protesting and a few isolated cases of police stupidity.

I also disagree on the idea that being detained until your citizenship can be confirmed is any different than being detained for a different crime you did not commit. I was once detained for a crime I did not commit, held for 8 hours, and then released with all charges being dropped soon afterwards. Its not a fun experience, and I empathize with anyone who goes through it, but there is little difference between being wrongly detained for something like theft or robbery and being detained for suspected immigration crimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:52 pm
Posts: 56
DoingHomework wrote:

And how did you know he was illegal? Or were you just assuming that since he was a brown-skinned Spanish speaker he was not properly documented and authorized to be in the United States?


Because I've been hit exactly four times in my life, none of them my fault.

Hit #1) A guy in Brat Pickup with a full load of hay switched lanes RIGHT INTO ME on the Mojave Narrows bridge. We both almost went over the side of the bridge.

Hit #2) Our pal, the No Habla Ingles Guy hits me pulling onto a side street from his house. Pulled right into the front passenger side of my truck with his van.

Hit #3) I was stopped on the 22 East Fwy on the other side of a hill, waiting for traffic to move. Some kid flies over the crest of the hill in his pick-up, notices too late that traffic is jammed up at the bottom of the hill, brakes hard, skids, and slams into my rear-end.

Hit #4) I was driving down Cypress Garden Blvd, and an elderly gentlemen pulls his van out from a side street with a stop sign (I was on the Blvd which had no signs and the speed limit was 45 mph) and he pulls his van right into my truck, t-boning me. (He says he never even saw me, yikes!).

In Hits #1, #3 and #4, all citizens involved PULLED OVER, GOT OUT OF THEIR CAR, showed me their driver's license, exchanged insurance information, and made sure I was ok, and I made sure they were ok, and they made the effort to make things right with me.

In Hit #2, our "No Habla Ingles" friend REFUSED TO EVEN GET OUT OF HIS VEHICLE, and as was pulling away as I was getting out of mine. I had blocked his van, and tried to get him to get out and exchange information, but he refused, and left the scene of the accident without talking to me other than shouting "No Habla Ingles" before swerving around me and peeling out. HMMMMM. Something's fishy. People don't DO that unless they're hiding something: Either they're intoxicated while driving, or they're drugged up or transporting drugs, or they're not supposed to be driving, or they're not supposed to be here in this country at all. Any of those things are ILLEGAL, hence the word "ILLEGAL". Who hits someone, then doesn't even get out or stop to exchange information? Criminals, that's who. And by refusing to even talk to me, he committed the crime of 'hit and run' so if he wasn't illegal before, he was then. Too bad I was powerless to do something about it.

Quote:
Actually though we say "illegal" what we mean is undocumented. It may be a federal crime. I can't be sure without reading U.S.C. Title 18 thoroughly. On a cursory review of that Title the only crimes I could find related to this have to do with obtaining citizenship fraudulently. No one is claiming that has happened here. So these so-called illegals have merely failed to follow the proper administrative procedures. If they had in fact committed crimes they would be entitled to a jury trial before conviction and punishment (including deportation) That would be very expensive and is not what happens. So I am fairly certain that all those screaming "illegal" are simply misinformed.


Trust me, it IS a Federal Crime to be in this country without proper documentation. Not 'may be', but IS. How do I know this? I have several friends who have emigrated to this country the LEGAL way, and one who is trying right now to emigrate from France. They have assured me that our officials have most certainly let them know that it is indeed ILLEGAL, as in "A Federal Crime" to be here without doing it the proper way. You can't just waltz into someone else's country without a passport or a green card, or going through the proper channels. Have you ever visited another country? It's a HASSLE. And in many countries, if you try to stay without doing it the legal way, it's a crime.

Quote:
Interesting that "Miranda" was an Arizona case. And Miranda is a hispanic surname. Arizona cops seem to have a history of abuse...and guys like Mr. Miranda are often the target. Might also interest you to know that the SCOTUS has recently agreed to hear another Arizona case related to police abuse that could be as significant as Miranda.


I'm not crazy about cops in general, but even _I_ know that saying crap like "Arizona cops have a history of abuse" and singling out Arizona cops as having a special abusive history is ridiculous. ALL professions all over the nation, and all walks of life and beliefs have their share of bad apples. There are abusive bankers, abusive doctors, abusive atheists, abusive christians, abusive cops, abusive ACLU members, etc. And conversely, there are good guys in all those instances too.

If you're worried about the Arizona cops profiling certain groups of people, then you have no right to profile them by saying "Arizona Cops have a History of Abuse". However, if you can say "Well, Arizona Cops have a history of abuse", then the Arizona Cops can say "Well, Arizona Hispanics have a history of being here illegally." Aren't both profiling in your eyes?

Brenda wrote:
Personally, I think Arizona's new law is just one born out of desperation. They're desperate after all the shootings, drugs and murders, and they just want to uphold the Law that the Feds are ignoring.


DoingHomework wrote:
I would agree. You were frustrated when the gentleman hit you then left you holding the bag. Arizonans are frustrated with the situation, blue and green alike. But frustration is not a good reason for passing laws.


I believe laws come from people being frustrated due to injustices being committed, actually. Arizona is under the injustice of a tide of crime that has been directly linked to illegal aliens, mostly in the name of drugs. A rancher was recently shot and killed by an illegal immigrant. An officer was shot recently as well by an illegal. Drugs AND people are constantly being smuggled across the border from Mexico to Arizona. The law-abiding citizens of Arizona are at wit's end and in the middle of a huge drug war, and Coyote business, and they're fed up! They're tired of these injustices. They're tired of the Federal Government refusing to do anything about it. Even now, Obama is like "Oh, well, Congress is really tired. We'll just put this whole issue on the back-burner". And none of the presidents before him were much better in this instance. People are getting tired of 'nothing being done' or worse yet, presidents wanting to give all people here illegally "amnesty". That's an even bigger slap in the face for those like my friends who had to jump through multiple, time-consuming expensive, hoops to do things the right way and be here legally. :/
And so, the states directly on the front lines of all this, are desperate to change things for the better, for the law-abiding citizens of the USA.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:31 pm
Posts: 405
Quote:
People don't DO that unless they're hiding something


I hate to break it to you, but yes they do. There is a certain small part of any population that just does not give a crap about you, and will do whatever is solely in their own best interest. These people come from all different races and backgrounds. If you sincerely think there is no one out there that would simple pull away from an accident just to avoid a hit on their driving record then I dont know what to say.

It very well could have been an illegal immigrant that hit you, but its far from a certainty.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:52 pm
Posts: 56
Savarel wrote:
Quote:
People don't DO that unless they're hiding something


I hate to break it to you, but yes they do. There is a certain small part of any population that just does not give a crap about you, and will do whatever is solely in their own best interest. These people come from all different races and backgrounds. If you sincerely think there is no one out there that would simple pull away from an accident just to avoid a hit on their driving record then I dont know what to say.

It very well could have been an illegal immigrant that hit you, but its far from a certainty.


Then like I said, if they weren't a criminal (or "illegal") before, they are now, because that's a hit and run. Doesn't that carry a worse sentence if caught, than just bucking up and saying "yeah, I did it"? You'd think that someone wouldn't want to take that risk. But then again, maybe I'm giving people more credit than they deserve.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:54 am 
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It seems the rancher was not killed by illegal immigrants. He was killed by American drug smugglers.

It is clear that Arizona needs to make it a crime for Americans to be in the state for the purpose of smugging or killing.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:59 am 
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Brenda wrote:
...

Brenda, I'm not convinced you have any evidence that the person who hit you was in the country illegally.

I'd love to hear which STATUTE illegal immigrants are violating to make it a federal crime. Because I'm unable to find one...but that does not mean much. But everyone accused of a crime in ths country is entitled to a jury trial. Where are the millions of jury trials against these millions of illegal immigrants we hear about?


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:13 am 
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Brenda wrote:
Trust me, it IS a Federal Crime to be in this country without proper documentation. Not 'may be', but IS. How do I know this? I have several friends who have emigrated to this country the LEGAL way, and one who is trying right now to emigrate from France. They have assured me that our officials have most certainly let them know that it is indeed ILLEGAL, as in "A Federal Crime" to be here without doing it the proper way. You can't just waltz into someone else's country without a passport or a green card, or going through the proper channels. Have you ever visited another country? It's a HASSLE. And in many countries, if you try to stay without doing it the legal way, it's a crime.

Do you know which statute? Just because some border patrol agent or bureaucrat says something is a crime does not make it so. Many things are just civil offenses. The crimes in the criminal code don't seem to address this.
Brenda wrote:
If you're worried about the Arizona cops profiling certain groups of people, then you have no right to profile them by saying "Arizona Cops have a History of Abuse". However, if you can say "Well, Arizona Cops have a history of abuse", then the Arizona Cops can say "Well, Arizona Hispanics have a history of being here illegally." Aren't both profiling in your eyes?

Perhaps. And certainly not all Arizona cops have a history of abuse. It might better be said that the history of law enforcement here is embedded in the old west days. As institutions they don't seem to think they are accountable. The rights of people they make contact with are not their primary concern.

Brenda wrote:
I believe laws come from people being frustrated due to injustices being committed, actually. Arizona is under the injustice of a tide of crime that has been directly linked to illegal aliens, mostly in the name of drugs. A rancher was recently shot and killed by an illegal immigrant. An officer was shot recently as well by an illegal. Drugs AND people are constantly being smuggled across the border from Mexico to Arizona. The law-abiding citizens of Arizona are at wit's end and in the middle of a huge drug war, and Coyote business, and they're fed up! They're tired of these injustices. They're tired of the Federal Government refusing to do anything about it. Even now, Obama is like "Oh, well, Congress is really tired. We'll just put this whole issue on the back-burner". And none of the presidents before him were much better in this instance. People are getting tired of 'nothing being done' or worse yet, presidents wanting to give all people here illegally "amnesty". That's an even bigger slap in the face for those like my friends who had to jump through multiple, time-consuming expensive, hoops to do things the right way and be here legally. :/
And so, the states directly on the front lines of all this, are desperate to change things for the better, for the law-abiding citizens of the USA.

Again, I would agree with much of what you are saying. Something shold be done. But until we get every member of Congress and every armchair politician in the country to actually walk along the border they will not understand how ridiculous it is to suggest we have a secure border. We'd be spending ten times what we do now to patrol and maintain a fence. I think most Americans would be surprised to see what the real border looks like. What we need is economic policy that is realistic and bilateral agreements with Mexico to address problems on both sides of the border.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:24 am 
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Savarel wrote:
I also disagree on the idea that being detained until your citizenship can be confirmed is any different than being detained for a different crime you did not commit. I was once detained for a crime I did not commit, held for 8 hours, and then released with all charges being dropped soon afterwards. Its not a fun experience, and I empathize with anyone who goes through it, but there is little difference between being wrongly detained for something like theft or robbery and being detained for suspected immigration crimes.


There is a huge difference:

Prospective employer: Mr. Savarel, have you ever been arrested?
Savarel: Yes...but I didn't do it
Prospective employer: I see. We'll let you know about that job...don't call us, we'll call you.

Now, if we allow detention based on race or appearance, which it seems is the only possible observable police could use to create that reasonable suspicion, then we make it more likely that hispanics have an arrest record and that makes it more difficult for them to get a job.

Yes, it is illegal for a prospective employer to ask that arrest question. But it happens all the time. It also creates a public record that employers can dig up with ease.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:51 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:29 pm
Posts: 1609
Location: Seattle, WA
DoingHomework wrote:
Yes, it is illegal for a prospective employer to ask that arrest question. But it happens all the time. It also creates a public record that employers can dig up with ease.


That depends on state laws; in some states it is legal to ask about arrests, no matter the outcome of the case. According to this http://www.lac.org/toolkits/arrests/arrest_inquiries.htm such questions are legal in 36 states, including Arizona.

So much for innocent until proven guilty!


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:09 pm 
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DoingHomework wrote:
I have not said that there is an analogy to what the Nazis did


Well, I guess I must have misinterpreted your reply of "Nice." to what DTR wrote... an odd response if you actually disagreed with his insinuation...

DoingHomework wrote:
but I think arguing specifics is hardly the point. As I'm sure, we have a history of passing laws that exclude one group or another yet do not do it overtly. We debated Jim Crow laws for nearly a century. There was a sound economic basis or slavery.


I think the "specifics" are rather important here. The "specifics" are what separate Arizona's law from Jim Crow laws or those in Nazi Germany. The Arizona law says nothing about being, or appearing to be, a certain race. It does not give more or fewer rights, freedoms, or opportunities to any one racial group. It does not take advantage of one racial group for the economic benefit of others. The Arizona law merely says that police need to more aggressively enforce the laws that already exist. Those laws don't discriminate between races either. If someone has white skin and red hair then they are just as wrong as anyone else if they are in the country illegally and working under-the-table, and the law does not treat them any differently. What you seem to be concerned about is the fact that the law will disproportionately affect Hispanics. Well, whose fault is it that so many Hispanics decided to sneak into the country illegally?

DoingHomework wrote:
it is not a federal crime as near as I can tell.


This is wacky. I am not a lawyer and cannot possibly dissect and make sense of the entire US Code, but even you have used the term "illegal immigrant" in this very thread. The best I can offer is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_entry#United_States on this which links to a Congressional Research Service Report, referencing the Immigration and Nationality Act, and stating that it is a misdemeanor. In any case, do you really think it is 100% OK to just walk into our country without permission and do whatever you want?

DoingHomework wrote:
If it were then the federal courts would have jurisdiction. What Arizona has done is to create a state crime of failing to abide by a federal administrative procedure... tax evasion is a federal crime.


You're just being slippery and disingenuous. First, are you not required to pay income tax to the state of Arizona? Second, I know you'd be crying foul just as loudly if it were the Federal government who decided to crack down on this. So far, at every step of the way, you have made a point of not coming out and agreeing that the illegal Mexican immigrants in Arizona have actually done anything wrong. You obliquely start talking about punishing other people (white people, legal residents, employers who evade taxes, etc.) when nobody here has argued that those people should be let off the hook either. But when we talk about someone of Hispanic origin being punished then your immediate, knee-jerk reaction is that racism must be at play.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:31 pm
Posts: 405
Quote:
There is a huge difference:

Prospective employer: Mr. Savarel, have you ever been arrested?
Savarel: Yes...but I didn't do it
Prospective employer: I see. We'll let you know about that job...don't call us, we'll call you.

Now, if we allow detention based on race or appearance, which it seems is the only possible observable police could use to create that reasonable suspicion, then we make it more likely that hispanics have an arrest record and that makes it more difficult for them to get a job.

Yes, it is illegal for a prospective employer to ask that arrest question. But it happens all the time. It also creates a public record that employers can dig up with ease.


So what is the difference?

Quote:
That depends on state laws; in some states it is legal to ask about arrests, no matter the outcome of the case. According to this http://www.lac.org/toolkits/arrests/arrest_inquiries.htm such questions are legal in 36 states, including Arizona.

So much for innocent until proven guilty!


Yeah, its pretty ridiculous. Thankfully most companies just hire a 3rd party to do the background check, most of which only count felony convictions. Although I was turned down when applying to move into an apartment complex simply because of the arrest, which made me very unhappy!


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:54 pm 
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timwalsh300 wrote:
to the state of Arizona? Second, I know you'd be crying foul just as loudly if it were the Federal government who decided to crack down on this. So far, at every step of the way, you have made a point of not coming out and agreeing that the illegal Mexican immigrants in Arizona have actually done anything wrong. You obliquely start talking about punishing other people (white people, legal residents, employers who evade taxes, etc.) when nobody here has argued that those people should be let off the hook either. But when we talk about someone of Hispanic origin being punished then your immediate, knee-jerk reaction is that racism must be at play.


Tim, I'm not trying to be disingenuous. Those that are in the country without proper visas (avoiding the term "illegal') may have done something wrong. I will leave it up to the federal courts to decide. Because when I read the United States Code section that is cited in the Arizona law, it seems to give aliens 30 days to properly register or be subject to a fine not to exceed $100. Yet the Arizona law misses that little tidbit and requires Arizona law enforcement to verify legal presence before releasing. That seems to be a contradiction if they are not even required to register for 30 days.

I've done a little bit more reading. One thing the new law does is make it a felony to provide medical assistance or any other kind of assistance to illegal aliens. So, the legislature wants to lock up the church groups that give them water. and take them to hospitals so they don't die. There is an exemption for licensed EMTs but not for me if I find someone dying in the desert. I better check immigration status before treating him - I could go to jail for a year or more. Oh, and judges are not allowed to shorten or suspend that sentence.


"Nice." was a comment about a funny twist dtr made to your words...not agreement that you are a Nazi.

Tim, this law is just plain mean spirited. I encourage you to go read it. I don't deny there is a problem or that something should be done with it. But there is major "winking and nodding" going on here. It is clearly about locking up hispanics. It is one step short of declaring open season on illegals in the desert. Arizona already has laws making it legal to shoot tresspassers or people scaring cows. I can see this law being twisted like you can't even imagine. I am predicting the future here though.

Go read the law. Much of it seems reasonable. But think of the worst that can happen and you'll see where this can go.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Savarel wrote:
So what is the difference?


The difference is that when hispanics are targeted for detention or arrest just because of their skin color or accent and the unfounded suspicion that they are illegal, they are potentially discriminated against in employment for the rest of their lives.

If you were wrongly arrested then that is not right either. But were you in the wrong place at the wrong time or was it because of your skin color? To me that makes a huge difference.

Savarel wrote:
Yeah, its pretty ridiculous. Thankfully most companies just hire a 3rd party to do the background check, most of which only count felony convictions. Although I was turned down when applying to move into an apartment complex simply because of the arrest, which made me very unhappy!


It is ridiculous. And my reference to Jim Crow laws was because many of them seemed reasonable on the surface - you were eligible to vote if your grandfather was...no discrimination there...except that in practice it didn't work. Separate but equal drinking fountains....what a horrible part of our past. But I know not everyone agrees. They try to take control of the legislature and pass laws to take us back to those times.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona immigration law
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:56 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:31 pm
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Quote:
If you were wrongly arrested then that is not right either. But were you in the wrong place at the wrong time or was it because of your skin color? To me that makes a huge difference.


I will agree with this in principal. Someone could conceivably be arrested just for being hispanic and speaking spanish, assuming he has no ID on him, held for X hours until his SSN is verified, and then released.

That is obviously wrong, but with modern technology a cop should conceivably be able to connect your SSN to your name from their patrol car. That opens up a whole new can or worms, but the number of times a person will be randomly picked up and arrested for "looking hispanic" will be close to zero. 40% of the population of Phoenix is hispanic, if police checked the identity and citizenship of every hispanic looking dude they saw, they would literally spend all day on the same street.

The law just requires cops to verify immigration status after arresting someone for an unrelated crime, car accident, traffic stop, etc...

I'm not saying this is a great idea, or that is the best solution, but its not nearly as terrible as some people think.

The original point I was making was that cops currently use all sorts of BS ways of arresting you, even knowing nothing will stick and you will be released the next day anyway. There is little outrage when a college student gets arrested for having an empty plastic bag on him so why the outrage when a hispanic guy gets arrested for being an illegal immigrant?


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