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A place for Get Rich Slowly readers to ask questions
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It is currently Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:03 am




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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:07 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
First of all, thank you for the truly honest questions that have been posed thus far, and the answers that have been given. It has been very interesting and I have learned much.

However, the previous few posts were written as if an answer wasn't wanted, but only an argument. Do you truly want me to answer those questions so that you can understand, or were they written just for the sake of argument without a desire to learn?

Knowingly or not, enjoy hiding behind fear, ignorance, and "group think". They use those things to justify their IN-action because it helps them feel safe in their shell. Everyone in this world does it in some way or another, including myself at times, and it appears that's what you're doing now regarding this investment strategy.

I've offered you something very good that would bless your life and the life of people you come in contact with. Even if you only wish to explore this investment method as a possibility, I would gladly share, but you must truly desire to understand.

I have answers for your questions but I don't want to continue sharing this good thing with people who are going to trample it under their feet.

If you don't sincerely desire to learn what I have to offer then I feel truly sorry for you, but I am glad you're happy where you are and will willingly leave the conversation where it is. That way you can continue to tell yourself that you are right and I was wrong, and stay in your little world of impossibilities.

Either way, I am grateful for the helpful comments that have been made and hope the best for you all. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:16 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1827
There's an old story about a king who wanted to understand all there was to know about economics. His economic advisers went off to write down everything they knew on the subject, returning with 87 volumes of 600 pages each.

"That's too much to comprehend," the king complained, and he asked them to make it more concise. Four more times they tried, and four more times they were asked for even more brevity. Eventually, the economic advisers began to die off.

Finally, the sole surviving adviser came back to the king and told him that he could explain the entire subject of economics in one sentence.

"There is no such thing as a free lunch."

There it was. All of the complexities and depth of a topic as rich as economics summed up in nine simple words.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:49 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
VinTek wrote:
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."


...and the king's servant knew how anyone in his kingdom could get an excellent lunch for far less anyone in town, but nobody else wanted to hear it. So the servant continued to eat like a king even though he had the budget of a servant.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:53 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:29 pm
Posts: 1609
Location: Seattle, WA
RealInvesting wrote:
Knowingly or not, enjoy hiding behind fear, ignorance, and "group think". They use those things to justify their IN-action because it helps them feel safe in their shell. Everyone in this world does it in some way or another, including myself at times, and it appears that's what you're doing now regarding this investment strategy.


I was just thinking about this kind of statement the other day. (Perhaps subconsciously triggered by this thread. And/or by the first chapter of the Early Retirement Extreme book.)

Person A (skeptic): "that's just an MLM scheme"
Person B (amway fan): "that's just what they told me you would say"
A: "That's just how I knew you would respond to my statement"
ad infinitum.

Can be genericized to any controversial topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:58 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1827
RealInvesting wrote:
...and the king's servant knew how anyone in his kingdom could get an excellent lunch for far less anyone in town, but nobody else wanted to hear it. So the servant continued to eat like a king even though he had the budget of a servant.


Offering large gains for very little (or no) risk is essentially offering a free lunch.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:11 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:33 pm
Posts: 1136
Location: Illinois
Actually you first came here proclaiming, without a doubt, you had a great method for getting around the IRA contribution limits. It was only after we pointed out flaws in you plan that you claimed to be here for help finding potential flaws in your plan.

Now you're getting angry at us for pointing out flaws in you newly modified plan.

Some very valid points have been raised, but rather than answer them, you attack. That makes you sound eve more like a snake oil salesman.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:37 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
bpgui wrote:
Actually you first came here proclaiming, without a doubt, you had a great method for getting around the IRA contribution limits. It was only after we pointed out flaws in you plan that you claimed to be here for help finding potential flaws in your plan.

Now you're getting angry at us for pointing out flaws in you newly modified plan.

Some very valid points have been raised, but rather than answer them, you attack. That makes you sound eve more like a snake oil salesman.


Believe what you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:59 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
VinTek wrote:
Offering large gains for very little (or no) risk is essentially offering a free lunch.


"Free" is offering something for nothing. I'm offering lunch for 60% of what it costs everyone else.

Here are two simple questions I'd like everyone to answer for me. Maybe it will help me better understand why you are all so afraid:

Q: To you, what is the "safest" thing you could invest in that could yield you a 12% (or better) return on your investment?

Q: In your mind, what is the most someone can earn on their investment before the alarms go off in your head and you think it might be a scam? (Be honest with yourself)


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:33 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1827
RealInvesting wrote:
Here are two simple questions I'd like everyone to answer for me. Maybe it will help me better understand why you are all so afraid:

We're not actually afraid. Some of us actually do financial risk management for a living and for the reasons outlined above, believe that you're statements of "very low or no risk" are deceptive. With in investment portfolio primarily in equities (weighted to small caps and value stocks), I'm considered very risk tolerant. However, that does not mean that I'd be willing to march into a casino and put all my money on "red." Why are trying to make your case so strongly? Surely you're not concerned that we'll all wind up in the poorhouse if we don't take advantage of your "offer."

RealInvesting wrote:
Q: To you, what is the "safest" thing you could invest in that could yield you a 12% (or better) return on your investment?

Risk/reward are irrevocably tied. That's why we do risk analysis before making an investment. So far, a close examination of your methodology is not yielding a ratio acceptable to most of us. We believe that you are understating your risk by a considerable degree. We also think there may be legal issues with it.

RealInvesting wrote:
Q: In your mind, what is the most someone can earn on their investment before the alarms go off in your head and you think it might be a scam? (Be honest with yourself)

It's not a matter of how much we can earn. You can legitimately earn 100% by going to the roulette table, but also have to take on high risk. And there's no scam there. The alarm bells go off when we hear things that don't make sense (like claims of little or no risk) when they're compared to the real world.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:33 pm
Posts: 1136
Location: Illinois
RealInvesting wrote:
Believe what you wish.

So your not going to answer the points raised against your strategy?


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
bpgui wrote:
RealInvesting wrote:
Believe what you wish.

So your not going to answer the points raised against your strategy?


See my post above, apparently not.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19
Your post was a breathe of fresh air. thanks for getting to the point.

VinTek wrote:
We're not actually afraid. Some of us actually do financial risk management for a living and for the reasons outlined above, believe that you're statements of "very low or no risk" are deceptive. With in investment portfolio primarily in equities (weighted to small caps and value stocks), I'm considered very risk tolerant. However, that does not mean that I'd be willing to march into a casino and put all my money on "red." Why are trying to make your case so strongly? Surely you're not concerned that we'll all wind up in the poorhouse if we don't take advantage of your "offer."


Why am i trying to make my case so strongly? I'm just trying to call the orange barn an orange barn. When i'm told i'm being deceptive because there's no such thing as an orange barn because they're always red and they can't be any other color without being on fire, then my natural response is, "Yes, it really is orange and it's not on fire". Call it defensive if you wish, but I'm just stating it as it is. You can call me blind if you wish, but the fact is that there are (as i've said already), hundreds and thousands of people that agree that it's orange and have done tests on it and have confirmed that it's true. It's such a simple investment strategy and yet somehow everyone here is afraid of it. You can lead a horse to water but...

As you see a few posts back, I've stopped trying to convince anyone and have already decided to allow others to call it a dangerous, impossible, a scam, a pink elephant, etc.

I'm just disappointed that nobody really wants to believe in a good thing that works everywhere and can benefit so many people, Yes, "with very little risk and a high return".

VinTek wrote:
Risk/reward are irrevocably tied. That's why we do risk analysis before making an investment. So far, a close examination of your methodology is not yielding a ratio acceptable to most of us. We believe that you are understating your risk by a considerable degree. We also think there may be legal issues with it.


Great, i can handle this type of concern. I'm not a finance person, i'm a real estate investor. How do you prefer this type of data be presented to make it easy to assess the danger? is there a format you like? i might be able to follow it so we can all be on the same page.

VinTek wrote:
It's not a matter of how much we can earn. You can legitimately earn 100% by going to the roulette table, but also have to take on high risk. And there's no scam there. The alarm bells go off when we hear things that don't make sense (like claims of little or no risk) when they're compared to the real world.


1) I don't gamble, ever. And no, Real Estate is not gambling either.

2) If i ever said "NO Risk", then I was at fault. I agree there is no such thing as "no risk". I will still stand by "Little Risk" though. It just so happens that this "little risk" strategy IS a real world strategy.

For anyone wondering about this "new" or "illegal" method of investing I am proposing, which is to loan cash on a real estate deal with a low LTV, Try this: http://tinyurl.com/6k88wuy


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 1149
Quote:
I'm not a finance person, i'm a real estate investor.


You've said this a couple of times and we all can agree that it's most assuredly a true statement so why don't you listen when finance people tell you that this scheme of yours is chocked full of red flags?

Q: What makes you (the non-finance person) believe that the average Joe Six Pack off the street would be willing to risk their IRA money with you (the real estate flipper) in the middle of the worst housing recession in history?

A: Greed. Your greed is relying on their greed. The real question is who gets the goldmine & who gets the shaft when this house of cards comes tumbling down?


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:33 pm
Posts: 1136
Location: Illinois
RealInvesting wrote:
bpgui wrote:
RealInvesting wrote:
Believe what you wish.

So your not going to answer the points raised against your strategy?


See my post above, apparently not.

Disappointing, but very typical. Valid points are raised and instead of answering the points, you refuse to answer. That will certainly help you gain the confidence of investors.


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 Post subject: Re: Cash + Real Estate + Roth IRA = Infinite Tax Free Retire
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:17 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1827
RealInvesting wrote:
Why am i trying to make my case so strongly? I'm just trying to call the orange barn an orange barn. When i'm told i'm being deceptive because there's no such thing as an orange barn because they're always red and they can't be any other color without being on fire, then my natural response is, "Yes, it really is orange and it's not on fire". Call it defensive if you wish, but I'm just stating it as it is. You can call me blind if you wish, but the fact is that there are (as i've said already), hundreds and thousands of people that agree that it's orange and have done tests on it and have confirmed that it's true.


So tell me, how much skin do you have in the game? How much have you personally invested? Did you make money? How much? Can you prove it?

RealInvesting wrote:
1) I don't gamble, ever. And no, Real Estate is not gambling either.

Any investment carries a certain amount of risk unless it's guaranteed by an entity such as the FDIC. As such, most investments, including real estate, are a gamble. The only difference is the degree of risk. When I invest, I take on a certain amount of risk. But when I do so, it's carefully calculated to match my risk tolerance. I bought my house from someone who earned $14M in his career. I got the house cheap because he had to file bankruptcy. How did he lose his money? By investing in (commercial) real estate. Tell him that real estate is not a gamble.

RealInvesting wrote:
2) If i ever said "NO Risk", then I was at fault. I agree there is no such thing as "no risk". I will still stand by "Little Risk" though. It just so happens that this "little risk" strategy IS a real world strategy.


You haven't proven the "little risk" portion of your assertion with empirical evidence.

RealInvesting wrote:
For anyone wondering about this "new" or "illegal" method of investing I am proposing, which is to loan cash on a real estate deal with a low LTV, Try this: http://tinyurl.com/6k88wuy


I see a list of sites to help people make hard money loans. I could just as easily Google up with a list of companies that teach your forex, or commodities trading, or daytrading via technical analysis. What is the point of your list? I see nothing that lends legitimacy to the methodology.

Wikipedia wrote:
Hard Money is a term that is used almost exclusively in the United States and Canada where these types of loans are most common. In commercial real estate, hard money developed as an alternative "last resort" for property owners seeking capital against the value of their holdings. The industry began in the late 1950s when the credit industry in the U.S. underwent drastic changes (see FDIC: Evaluating the Consumer Revolution).
The hard money industry suffered severe setbacks during the real estate crashes of the early 1980s and early 1990s due to lenders overestimating and funding properties at well over market value. Since that time, lower LTV rates have been the norm for hard money lenders seeking to protect themselves against the market's volatility. Today, high interest rates are the mark of hard money loans as a way to compensate lenders for the considerable risk that they undertake.


Little risk. Riiiiight.


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