Money and Relationships: A Matter of Control?
Published on - April 30th, 2010 (Modified on - May 3rd, 2010) (by J.D. Roth) Last week I gave a talk at Powell’s bookstore here in Portland. During the question-and-answers session, one woman posed an interesting question. (I’ve forgotten her name, so let’s call her Kim to make things easy.)
Kim has been aggressively paying down her debt, and is pleased with her progress. However, her boyfriend thinks she’s doing it wrong. If I understand correctly, Kim’s boyfriend believes she should pay down each debt part way (perhaps a half or a third) so that none of her obligations is near its limit. He believes that this will increase Kim’s credit score. Kim wanted to know if this was a good idea.
Too much control
Obviously, it’s difficult to give a complete answer without knowing more about the situation. Still, I think this is a great example of how financial decisions are often about more than just the math involved. There are three basic approaches to debt here:
- Tackle the debts in order of interest rate, knocking off the high-interest debts first. Mathematically, this is the best option because — if you follow through — you’ll pay less interest in the long run.
- Tackle the debts in order of balance, starting with the debts you owe least on first. Psychologically, this is usually the best option because you can get some quick wins, knocking off several debts in a short amount of time. This is the method Dave Ramsey recommends. (And so do I.)
- Or, as Kim’s boyfriend recommends, try to coordinate payments so that each debt is paid down to a certain level before focusing on a specific obligation. For various esoteric reasons, this method should have the greatest impact on your credit score.
My recommendation during the question-and-answer period? No surprise: I told Kim that she should use the approach that makes her most comfortable, the approach that actually leads her to pay off her debts most quickly. I think it’s great that her boyfriend is eager for her to improve her credit score, but I think it’s dangerous to be dogmatic, especially if it involved becoming controlling about another person’s financial situation.
I believe it’s vital that both partners have an equal say in the finances, and that one person doesn’t take the role of “controller”, especially if, as in Kim’s case, it’s to move from a perfectly good option to a seemingly better option. If the option is good and your partner is happy with it, then leave well enough alone. Why pursue financial perfection at the cost of your relationship?
Not enough control
On the other hand, it’s important not to be completely ignorant about your partner’s financial situation. Recently, an anonymous user at Ask Metafilter posed an interesting question. She writes (in part):
My husband and I have been married for almost nine years and we have one giant recurring problem. For our entire relationship, even before we got married, he’s been full of nasty financial surprises.
[...]
The trick is that aside from all of the bullshit surrounding finances, Sam is a fantastic husband and father to our kids. I’ve got health issues — big ones — and Sam has been unfailingly supportive. He’s considerate, sweet, with unending patience with the kids, and just an overall good guy, except for this one, glaring area.
The full question describes the “nasty financial surprises” in detail. Suffice it to say that Sam, the man in this relationship, has accumulated some “surprise” debt, and has lied about his financial situation.
I’ve thought a lot about both of these situations. I feel like Kim’s story and Sam’s story show two extremes:
- In the first instance, one partner may be trying to exert too much control over a financial relationship.
- In the latter case, the partner isn’t exerting enough control over the financial relationship.
This made me wonder: How do you find balance in a financial partnership? I’m wondering how do you balance the fact that both partners are adults while recognizing that sometimes people need help?
Striving for balance
In my own relationship, Kris has always given me the space I need. Because we have separate finances, she’s had to exercise extreme trust that I’ll follow through on my obligations. Even when I was in debt, I did my best not to let her down. Sure, I may have been struggling to make ends meet, but I never missed a payment. I always paid my debts and other monthly obligations before spending on fun.
Still, I’m sure she was nervous at times. I remember that in 1994 she was reluctant to buy a house because of my debt. I think if she’d known the true extent of my financial problems, she might not have been so easy-going about the situation.
All of this is a stark reminder that money isn’t just about the math. There aren’t any magic formulas to help you decide what to do if one partner is a saver and another is a spender.
So, I’m wondering how you folks handle these situations in real life. I’m not just talking about the spender/saver dichotomy, and I’m not just talking about joint and separate finances. I want to know how you decide how much control each partner has over the finances.
Regardless of whether your finances are joint or separate, how do you handle situations like these? If you were dating, would you demand that your partner’s credit score be a priority? Would you insist that his debt be retired (or reduced to a certain point) before making a long-term commitment? Or are finances completely irrelevant?
GRS is committed to helping our readers save and achieve your financial goals.Savings interest rates may be low, but that’s all the more reason to shop for the best rate.Find the highest savings interest rate from Ally Bank, Capital One 360, Everbank, and more.
This article is about Psychology, Relationships
Disclaimer: This content is not provided or commissioned by American Express. Opinions expressed here are author's alone, not those of American Express, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by American Express. This site may be compensated through American Express Affiliate Program.
Discover is a paid advertiser of this site. Reasonable efforts are made to maintain accurate information. See the Discover online credit card application for full terms and conditions on offers and rewards.
SEARCH FOR RECENT ARTICLES
I think that if you are married or planning to get married, all cards should be on the table and you should agree on a financial gameplan.
When you’re married, you should handle everything like a team, finances included.
However, if you’re just dating, I believe each person should be able, or learn how to handle their own finances. A person should be able to accept responsibility for all their actions. That includes debt. No one should expect to be “bailed out” by getting married.
I can’t say I wouldn’t marry anyone with debt but I would definitely not marry someone who has a completely different view on money matters as I do. If we couldn’t agree on a gameplan, there is no point.
loading....
My husband and I had been dating for quite some time when I found “the debt shoebox”.
http://ultimatemoneyblog.com/the-debt-shoebox
I was sick to my stomach when I found that. I ended up letting him borrow money (I know, not a good idea) and he paid off his debt (it was less than $3,000). We ended up getting married and he is much better about finances now. Looking back, what I did was kind of risky, but I am thankful it worked out well!!
loading....
This post applies to a recent development in my own relationship. I am very responsible with my money – zero debts, pay of my CC in full each month and stick to a budget. My girlfriend works for a non-profit so she makes much less than I do. She has college loans to pay off. We have been together for 10 months now.
She recently told me that she has gotten into a bad habit of buying starbucks’ latte frappa mocha nevada…whatever the hell they sell, EVERY DAY. These things cost $4.50 each! I don’t like to tell others how to handle their money, but there is one thing that really pushes my buttons: expensive daily habits (like coffee and cigarettes.
My GF admitted that she hated this habit but had trouble giving it up. On top of that she was spending $.75 in the afternoon on a can of soda from the vending machine. $5.25 everyday, gone. That comes out to over $800 a year. Again who am I to tell her how to spend her money? The problem is we are saving to take a ski trip in Colorado next winter, but she complains about having trouble saving. I pointed out how much her expensive caffeine habit was hurting her. She got a little defensive and told me I spend to much going out to lunch with coworkers. Truth is I only go out once a week – every Tuesday – to a local BBQ place that is my ONE vice.
I told her that we should give these habits up together. I wouldn’t eat lunch out for a month and she would drink the free coffee at work and buy soda in a case to keep at her desk. At the end of May, both of our habits should be kicked. We started this on Wednesday and she admits the temptation is overwhelming for her sometimes. I will probably get the the BBQ tweaks come Tuesday. However, I know she will find this to be totally worth it when we’re on top of the snow caps in Colorado next winter.
Does anyone have any advice about how I can be more supportive to her? How do I talk money without sounding preachy?
loading....
The question you are asking here is the entire reason why I find money questions interesting, J.D. Money is the fuel we use to pursue our Life Goals. So what we do with our money is really what we do with our life. That means that there are an endless number of angles to explore.
Balance is the key. I would never advise someone not to marry a particular individual just because of a money issue. Not because money doesn’t matter. But because it is not the only thing that matters. I would ask the person to explore whether the money problem is a sign of some stupidity that can be overcome in time or of some deep character flaw that is unlikely to be changed. If you see a deep character flaw, you need to be worried, whether the evidence is money-related or not. If it’s not a sign of a deep character flaw, I think you recognize that no one is perfect and do your best to bring out the best in the other person over time.
One of the reasons why I love budgets is that crafting a budget as a couple forces issues like this out into the open. When you talk about them, you eventually (but often not immediately — it takes patience) solve them. And working together with a loved one to solve a problem is a huge turn-on. It does a lot to increase your affection and respect for the other person. So something good can come of these problems!
Rob
loading....
@Brett-
It is possible to buy things daily to make the day go nicely. Could you have gone to the store and bought her the favorite soda and put it in the company fridge? How about buying the favorite coffee at the store and brewing it in the morning before you both leave? How about an allowance to spend money on what ever you want (BBQ / Coffee/ whatever)? You need to have daily pleasures- especially when the trip is sooo far away (and possibly not as important to her as it is to you?)
Currently, I control the money in our relationship(pay the bills, watch the market and make trades, supply odds and ends). This task has moved back and forth for the last 30 years. We seem to be on the same page.
We have an allowance to do with whatever we want. It was $10 a paycheck when we got married and now is $100. This was vital to my sanity when I became an at home mom and his when he was the at home dad. Works for us. There is helping each other, separation, and control. If you try to control her- if she is smart- she will RUN!
loading....
In response to Brett: With an income and debt disparity like that, it’s both frustrating and challenging for each of you. She probably buys the Starbucks lattes because they’re a small splurge that make her not feel poor. For a long-term change, she’d probably be happier switching to once or twice a week and saving the difference.
I find that when something’s forbidden you become obsessed with it. When you cut back slowly, over time you hardly miss it. Free/cheap plain coffee with the occasional (once a week or so) something fancy is very doable for a coffee lover. I’m speaking as a former cappuccino addict…
If she’s finding it tough to save on a smaller income, one thing she might try is saving 5% of each paycheck. It sounds laughably small to experienced savers and those with large incomes/low or no debt, but to a starting saver or those with less wiggle room, it’s just enough to make a difference (especially with a year to save). She could also try making a little side money to add to her vacation stash. That might feel very encouraging.
loading....
I just got engaged and we’re buying our first house. Though we have lived together for the past year, our finances have been separate. But this month, we’re merging everything. Our financial priorities are pretty similar, and nobody has any hidden debts, so it’s been fairly easy to create a budget and financial plan…except for one area…
i have a high amount of grad student loans and a car loan. he has a smaller student loan and car loan. I want to debt snowball those loans so that in a few years our only debt will be the mortgage. he believes in paying the minimum and having a TON in savings (way more than i think is necessary). i try explaining to him that if we put $20,000 in savings and apply our extra monthly income to the debt, it will save us a TON of money in interest payments and we won’t have to worry should something happen…he just doesn’t see it that way. he wants more like 50-60,000 in savings…which i see as money wasted each month in interest payments.
we’re trying to figure out how to come to a compromise that makes us both happy…until then, i’ve been sneaking extra payments on my loans…
loading....
Brett, you say you only have ONE vice to go out to the BBQ, but it seems your girlfriend has ONE vice: beverage purchases. It’s not like she buys the beverages AND new shoes AND goes out for alcoholic drinks AND gets manicures every week, etc etc etc, and you only said she had school loans, not credit cards paying for these beverages. You obviously don’t enjoy the Starbucks drinks (or else you wouldn’t have seemed so dismissive of the mocha nevada whatevers), so since you don’t value them, you think she shouldn’t. You said she was defensive already of you complaining about it. Kicking a habit like that completely seems overly controlling and likely to backfire. Maybe buy her cases of soda, and suggest cutting back the Starbucks to 2-3 times a week. You also need to realize, if she makes much less than you do, and you still expect to maintain your standard of living for both of you (Colorado trips, something she wouldn’t have done at all on her own salary), then you are going to need to kick in more towards it. Either drop down to trips that are more reasonable for her income level, or understand that the cuts she will make will have to be deeper than the ones you have to make, and this will lead to resentment too, and nitpicking once a week BBQ trips.
loading....
I don’t know that we ever actually formally “decided” how much control we each have over our finances – we just kind of settled into roles that work for us. I’m more interested in money and personal finance than she is, so I handle watching our budget and investing our retirement savings. But each month, I do a complete “Net Worth” workup that includes every last asset and debt, and she goes over it with me. I make sure to keep her up-to-date on our progress toward various goals, and alert her when our budget is getting tight and we need to cut back in one or more areas for the month. For her part, she never abuses her credit card and is honest about her spending.
I can’t even say we split the bills 50/50, because both of our paycheques, and all of our bills, go through a single bank account. We know what our monthly income is, and we have a monthly budget that balances, so we don’t really think about who’s paying how much for what bill. It’s all “our” money.
I think the key is openness and honesty. As long as you’re both open and honest with each other about finances, goals, and concerns, you can work together as a team. But without trust, it becomes almost impossible (as starkly illustrated in the story from Ask Metafilter).
loading....
@Brett:
Clearly, her coffee and soda habits make her happy. If all it is costing her is $800/year, then I would recommend she work towards getting an $800/year raise at work. Then she can enjoy those indulgences guilt-free for the rest of time, and it will no longer be affecting your budget, or your relationship.
loading....
I agree with the above poster about respecting her financial situation. I’ve been in relationships where I’ve been expected to spend more than I could afford (for trips, household expenses, etc.) and it doesn’t lead anywhere good. If she makes less than you and has more debt, you need to respect that and either help her with trips that you want to take together or do cheaper things…like camping…without making her feel inferior.
I think that buying her soda and brewing coffee for her in the morning will show her that you want her to have little indulgences in her day, and it will most likely show her how much money she has been wasting. But if she chooses not to cut those things out, you can’t force the issue. She’s not spending a ridiculous amount. It may not be what you would spend your money on, but she is not you.
loading....
My husband makes a lot more than I do, and when we first got together, we were struggling to make ends meet so there were many, many fights about money. At that time, he was in charge of the checking account and we were constantly overdrawing the account because he doesn’t believe in balancing the checkbook. If there is money there, he spends it.
We finally decided that I should take over the finances, and although it does get to be stressful having to be completely responsible for both of our futures, I can sleep at night knowing we aren’t spending our last dollar. I have opened up several savings accounts, including a ROTH, but if it were up to him, we would “enjoy” what we make…meaning spending every penny.
One thing that helped stop the arguing was to create an allowance for both of us. We opened an online checking account for him so it is totally separate and he can spend on whatever he wants.
I frequently wish he was the type of person who wants to be more involved and make bigger decisions with me, but I know he never will be. Sometimes I feel guilty because I never know if what I’m doing is the best thing or not.
loading....
with respect to Brett #3′s question, perhaps you and GF could sit together and work out each of your respective budgets, including amounts for retirement AND saving for the trip but also covering all necessary expenses. Whatever is left she (and you) should be able to spend however she (or you) likes, whether it’s starbucks super yum lattes or special BBQ. (if there’s nothing left- perhaps that’s a seed for a different conversation
)
loading....
@Kat
You really should get to know me better. I am not forcing my GF to do anything. This was an agreed upon pact and she sees the ultimate goal of saving for our trip. The trip was her idea. Before we met, I hadn’t taken a vacation in 3 years because I hated the cost associated with it. I took my first vacation in 3 years in February with her to ski in Vermont for 4 days. Again, her idea.
SHE admitted the Starbucks was a bad habit. My intention was for her to use the planned trip as a motivator to help her kick the habit. I was more than glad to give up my vice in order to a) save more and b) be supportive.
You suggested I buy her cases of coke. I’m sorry, we may be dating but we are not married. I don’t owe her a single thing financially. I don’t mind taking her out to dinner, a movie, etc. every now and then, but until I am legally obligated to, she will not see any of my income. I am not in anyway OBLIGATED to maintain our standard of living. I live well below my means, she choses to live as best she can with her limited income. I’m fine with that. But we have been together 10 months and I like where the relationship is going. And although financial beliefs are not the most important thing, is there nothing wrong with testing someone to see if they are willing to compromise.
What if 10 years from now we were married and had a child. That child wants to take piano lessons, learn to play tennis, etc. Is she willing to give up her $5/day habit for the happiness of her child if money is that tight? You have no way of knowing these things until such situations come up. Our pact together is one way of learning something about each other.
If I was forcing her to give up her daily pleasure, then I’d make her leave me myself. I agree there is a line when something is considered too controlling. However, it’s not just her giving something up – I voluntarily agreed to give up something too. I thought strong relationships were built around such compromise?
loading....
What I think it the absolute most important part of finances in a relationship is that you both are on the same page as far as what you want out of life. Do you have the same goals, desires and ambitions and do you have a plan to accomplish these things financially?
It isn’t so simple as to just not have debt because, really, there is nothing to work towards or to preserve the lack of debt in a relationship if there aren’t common interests to work for.
If one partner wants to travel but the other wants to buy boats or comic books, there will be problems, debt or not.
In my situation, I am fortunate to have found a partner who shares many of my same desires in life and we both focus our finances on accomplishing our goals. We are working on getting out of debt and our spending on material possessions is minimal.
There is no control over each other’s finances because we both know what needs to be done to reach our goals. We make sure all of our bills get paid each month with a joint checking account and have our personal finances seperate. We keep an open dialogue about where we stand financially, good or bad.
This seems to work for us pretty well and we have been together 3 and a half years and I can’t recall a time when we ever argued about money.
loading....
I am engaged to a man substantially more well off than I am. Before we got together, I could take care of my monthly expenses, and was building an emergency fund, but not much more than that.
This summer we have two major events to attend for his family, and he is covering all our travel expenses plus helping me out with some money for fancy clothes for me and my daughter for the events.
However, I am actually “in charge” of keeping our budget, paying our bills, staying on track. The level of trust he has in me is rewarding, and humbling, as I make decisions with his money about our home and my daughter (whom he wants to adopt), decisions well out of the realm of possibility before I met him.
Thank goodness he has a great accountant/financial planner who has been working with his family for years who gives me guidance!
loading....
This is particularly relevant to my life at the moment. There is someone who I might someday date, but their interest in financial management is not the highest. We’ve talked about dating, but we live on opposite sides of the country and are not yet in a position to move closer. I can’t see tying my finances to someone without assurances that their finances were in order and would stay in order well in advance. That, and moving isn’t really an option without the financial structure to pay for it. There’s really nothing I can do about it, but I go through phases where I go around asking my parents to remind me that you can’t control the people you love, or change them. No, really, you can’t. It’s the half-way limbo that bothers me, the fact that this person /could/ get their financial/career house in order and doesn’t. (I’m not waiting around for this, but I can dream.)
loading....
My girlfriend has worked as a retail manager for the past 8 months at a clothing store. She would bring home a new something 4 days a week. It frustrated me because I used to be extremely conservative with my money. I ended up letting it go and not confronting her because it was her first real job and finally had money to spend on clothes or whatever else she wanted. About a month ago she asked me to help her save more. We figured out how much she could put away and started very small with the intention of increasing the direct deposit after a few months. On the other hand, I still save a lot of money but she’s helped me with my extreme saving habit so I can actually enjoy spending money.
loading....
I don’t owe her a single thing financially. I don’t mind taking her out to dinner, a movie, etc. every now and then, but until I am legally obligated to, she will not see any of my income. I am not in anyway OBLIGATED to maintain our standard of living.
and she is in no way obligated to change her standard of living to pass your test.
loading....
A boyfriend who won’t buy a $3 case of soda to show his support to his girlfriend or as a sweet/romantic gesture for her giving up the coffees. What a winner. I wasn’t saying to buy her a $300 espresso maker.
If you think that vacations are too expensive, why take another one with her? If you hate the costs associated with vacationing, take cheaper vacations. You will never know how she would act if her child’s happiness is at stake by testing her now. Does she know that you are making her give up fancy coffees today so you’ll know your kid can have piano lessons in 10 years? You should talk to her about this concern instead. You are considering small things that bring happiness to your lives as vices and giving them up so you can travel when you don’t even value traveling enough to do it more than once in 3 years before her? Why bother with the trip, then? One Colorado trip will buy plenty of piano and tennis lessons.
loading....
@ Brett:
I think the posters were suggesting to buy her a case of coke almost as a ‘romantic gesture’ as well as to show a bit of support. She may find it easier to give up one habit (Starbucks) at a time if she has one afternoon soda pick-me-up to look forward to (and will think of you and your support of her efforts).
I doubt anyone thinks you should ante up and start covering a lot of misc. expenses…
Try not to place too much pressure on her (or on yourself) around this one experiment as it may end up blowing things out of proportion (instead of focusing on what’s really important in your relationship, like good companionship and sincere respect for one another). Good luck to you both!
loading....
I personally would have a hard time marrying someone who was in debt. But even more importantly is how they acquired that debt, and what their spending habits are. If they acquired the debt in the form of student loans, I would want to know which school they attended. I personally could not justify the cost of a private school, and would end up being resentful of paying someone’s school debt because they just had to experience private school life. If they went to a public school, I would wonder if they took out extra large loans while attending just to party. All of this would give me pause in a relationship and I would most likely break up with that person long before we reached the alter. I would be more understanding of medical debt since the average Joe has little control over what the hospital and doctors charge. If I were dating someone with the obvious “bad” debt, I would be extremely critical of their spending habits and most likely would just break up with them due to frustrations in how they spent money.
loading....
My DH would prefer to leave money decisions to me, but I force conversations to get his input. Whenever there’s a big decision I ask what he thinks– I think it takes the pressure off me a bit. Once a year he does the taxes and we go over the big picture of our finances. He’s got his own individual allowance that he takes care of on his own. I tell him if I’m going to be doing a big amazon or clothing purchase. We discuss any big purchases outside his allowance.
loading....
Isn’t anyone else intrigued that JD was hiding stuff from Kris when they bought their house? Maybe I missed those posts, but this paragraph caught my eye:
“Still, I’m sure she was nervous at times. I remember that in 1994 she was reluctant to buy a house because of my debt. I think if she’d known the true extent of my financial problems, she might not have been so easy-going about the situation.”
@Brett – I think it’s important she admitted it’s a bad habit and wants to kick it. I see no problem with your approach to reallocate the funds to the vacation instead of what she deemed was not a valuable expense. Now if she enjoyed the daily coffee and really valued it and you suggested she stop, that would be a different scenario. Also, after the month is up, I would take her to Starbucks to celebrate. Giving up something for that long is hard and she’ll probably appreciate the gesture.
loading....
I really messed up. I bought a house at the beginning of this year, and allowed my girlfriend to move in and not pay towards anything so she could pay her debt off. As you can see where this is heading, now I feel as though she is not putting enough effort into her debt reduction. I have become controlling, trying to push her to pay her debt off, which is probably wrong. Unfortunately, I allowed her debt to be put into a position that also affects me.
I want a truthful opinion on this. She feels as though I am not doing her a favor by letting her stay for free, basically, because I’d still be paying mostly the same for everything except utilities might go a little lower. What makes matters worse for me, she has tons of “stuff”. My spare bedroom is packed with only her things, and is currently unusable.
What I want to know is, am I not doing her a favor by letting her stay for free? And is it wrong for me to charge my girlfriend a small rent and some of the utilities? Also, is it wrong for me to try and push her some on her debt, given the situation?
I also get dirt from her mom that I don’t spend enough money for us to go out. Sometimes I honestly feel like her mom tries to dig into me and get as much out as possible for her daughter.
loading....
I’m divorced (from a financially irresponsible man), so my perception might be skewed from someone never married or burned.
Plus I was forced to file bankruptcy because of my ex-husband’s constant poor choices…it will NEVER happen again! I’ve worked VERY hard to rebuild my life and my credit and financial security after that mess. If I’m going to be in that situation again, it will be my own fault…not someone else’s.
So, no, I would not commit to a man who was in debt and did not take his finances as a priority.
I would not marry until we were both debt free (which my current boyfriend and I both agreed to – even though I don’t think he’s the one I will every marry). I will not be responsible for even assisting someone else pay off THEIR debt, no more than I expect them to pay off mine.
I would put that into the mooching category. Plus any man who needs a single mom, who makes $40K a year (but lives a fairly nice life with a bright financial future) to help him pay off his debt….probably isn’t the right man for me!
loading....
The problem in our relationship for the longest time (I mean years) was ME. After reading the question at Ask Metafilter and all of the responses it generated, I pretty much know what’s going on here with ‘Sam’ because I did the same things. Sam has pathological psych issues that are governing his negative behavior and this is how those issues are manifesting themselves.
I generated debt that my SO knew nothing about, I lied about it and was very obtuse about our finances because I was allowed to get away with it. My SO who, it turns out, has money issues all his own, purposefully looked the other way because he couldn’t deal with the stress and strife my behavior was causing. So he ignored it altogether. It was only when I brought us to financial ruin for the THIRD time that I faced the awful truth about my shitty childhood and the physical and emotional abuse I experienced. I knew it was the root of all of my problems. Cut a long story short, I’ve spent the past 3 years making peace with my past. My SO, however, grew up with an alcoholic father and an emotionally neglectful mother (like mine). His perspective was warped as a kid too and money is the area in which his issues manifest themselves too. He is nowhere near as bad as I was but our roles have reversed. He is the one now with the financial issues while I am the one who finally ‘gets it’. We cannot discuss finances without some sort of meltdown on his part and this is a problem that continues to this day. Bit by bit, I am understanding that his mother is the root of his issues with money.
Right now, I am the one with all the control over the finances. (I know! LOL) But this is the way it’s been since the very first. I was always the one in control which is how I was able to cyclically wreck our financial lives. My SO just doesn’t want the responsibility but I understand why ~ he just needs to accept and work through his own personal issues like I had to.
We were never in debt when we met but I came out of my parent’s household like a raging bull ~ I never realized just how bad it was and neither did he. Love has carried us a long way, that’s all I can say.
loading....
I personally don’t understand how married couples could have separate finances. My wife and I look at our marriage as a company (financially speaking, only!). Money in and money out. All the money that comes into our lives goes into the pot and all the money that goes out goes to those things we value and our mutual goals, such as paying off debt now and saving later. We can throw all of our joint money at our debt together and conquer it alot faster than if we were paying off our separate debts. I was lucky to marry someone who has the same values and goals as me. We have never fought about money because we both are on the same page.
loading....
Shane, you are doing her a huge favor letting her stay free, and she is taking advantage of it if she isn’t putting extra towards debt. At this point, it is no longer a favor, you are enabling her to keep up bad habits of expecting others to pay her way (as her mother seems to have instilled in her). Why don’t you find out what a typical rent would be for sharing a house of your size in the neighborhood, and ask her if she is putting that much extra towards debt every month since moving in. Maybe she is, and you just don’t see it. But if she is not, find out why not.
Also, ask her why she feels the need to keep that extra stuff in your spare bedroom. You need to be honest with yourself if this is a life time commitment with her, maybe she is keeping everything in boxes in the spare room because she doesn’t feel comfortable meshing her stuff with yours. Explain that you want to be able to use it as an office/exercise room/spare bedroom for friends to sleep over, and she needs to fit everything in a closet, move it to her mom’s, or get rid of it. If it is excess stuff she doesn’t need (including not needing if you and she were to ever break up, she may be keeping it in case she needs to establish her own place one day), suggest helping with a yard sale, half can go to debt, half to whatever will make her happy. Before I married my husband, even though I knew he was the one, I kept all my stuff that he already had (like dishes), it was just a defense mechanism, it didn’t mean I didn’t love him or wasn’t planning on forever with him. Don’t take it badly if she is keeping the stuff “just in case.”
loading....
I think we have pretty even “control” over the finances. Neither of us had real debt issues when we got married – my husband has some student loans which were offset by the fact he owned a house, and I had no debt, but also very little in savings. Essentially, we both started at zero and have built everything up from there. We have similar philosophies but keep our finances separate.
I think that similar goals and a fair amount of trust are the basis for our financial marriage…control doesn’t really factor into it for us.
loading....
@ Shane:
I most definitely think you are doing her a huge favor by having her stay rent-free at your place.
Maybe you could help her to set up a budget where 15% (or whatever) of her pay is set aside automatically for debt repayment and 15% is set aside for a future savings goal of hers (em. fund, apartment, car, furniture, computer, whatever); this may help her to stay motivated while she works off her debt. I use YNAB to budget for our goals. If you have a budget of your own, you could also share some of its details so she can follow the examples.
Don’t let other people tell you how to spend your money. I think, if anything, allowing her to move in rent-free is enabling her (as someone else said). Tough love is needed for her own good in this case. Just make sure that you let her know that it’s not personal, that you still care for her, and that’s why you’re not willing to support her bad financial habit.
loading....
Wow, thanks Kat! That is extremely good advice while being completely unbiased. I will make sure to break down exactly how much she is paying for debt.
Most of the items she has are things she will never use again, and also lots of clothes that don’t fit her anymore. She gained weight over the past couple years, and hasn’t attempted to lose it at all, so I don’t know why she still has the clothes. For Christmas a few years back, I bought her the entire dish set, silverware, and glasses that we use. I’m actually the one who will need to buy stuff in the event of a break up, although I can afford it through savings.
She is a sale shopper, which she inherits from her mom. The problem is, she buys stuff that she doesn’t even need, justifying them from the sales. For example, she bought two purses a few weeks back, which I don’t understand.
The major problem I see between us is, we will probably never share the same views on finance, because she thinks I’ve become too frugal or cheap. She has made it clear that she doesn’t want to be as much into finances as I am.
I came from a financially uneducated family. My parents spent on themselves before me, and never once invested in me and my future if it meant them giving up something. I come from a background where I don’t have anyone to fall back on but me, so that’s why I’m frugal, to secure my future, along with my future wife and children. Every time I make a purchase, I think about how it will affect my future children. I just turned 23 by the way, marriage is a few years away for me.
loading....
Brett– One of my pet peeves is when people constantly complain about something but get upset when people suggest fixes.
Shane– Your current relationship doesn’t sound great. It sounds like resentment is building on one side and possibly guilt on the other. Wish I had some recommendations, but other than a lot of calm honest talking which could turn into a break-up just as easily as it could bring you closer together, I got nothing.
p.s. Shane– if you bring up the clothing DO NOT say anything about her having gained weight and not being able to wear the clothing again. Stick to… out of style, won’t be back in style for another 20 years. Leave us some illusion that that former weight isn’t out of reach.
loading....
Brett, I can appreciate you testing your relationship with your GF. I wish I had done more of it before marriage. My wife of 20 yrs. and I have gone back and forth with various tests of our own. A little over a year ago she wanted a treadmill to get more fit. In the back of my mind I was pretty sure since she does not regularly walk, jog or run outside that she would not use a treadmill. She bought the (expensive!) treadmill with her earnings and has used it maybe a dozen times. I scratch my head.
We have a number of checking accounts, and I used to maintain our main joint account for paying household bills. A few years ago she wanted to be more in touch with our household finances so I suggested she take over balancing the checkbook – it no longer gets balanced, and I recently started paying the monthly bills again. I need it to be more controlled; she obviously doesn’t. Soon, I’ll start balancing it again.
I’m interested in 401k details and savings and paying down our mortgage. I read books and blogs. She’s not interested in learning about investments, but she is excited about paying down the mortgage. Are these little hiccups in our financial life healthy? Not really. Does it affect my happiness? Yes. Enough for me to want to end the relationship? No. Knowing what I know now though I may not have married her because of our differences in what each of us values. She chose to be a teacher in a private grade school for low pay and long hours. I chose a regular hours accounting job, and also have my own flexible home businesses. I prefer time away from work to be outside to ride my bike and play with the kids and dog. I do wonder a bit about what we’ll have when the kids are grown…
I’ve learned to tone down my observations, and I squirrel away savings and do what I can to meet my needs for financial control which are different from her needs. I could easily say that I told-her-so on the treadmill and that her soda habit and lack of exercise in general is the reason she can’t get rid of her belly fat, but I know that would be futile. I just keep my mouth shut and try to lead by example by riding my bike to work and all over town.
I think it’s more important to think about values and relationships than money and relationships. My wife and I have a good financial picture, but we lack common values outside of that. Being married, but living single isn’t much fun. Brett kind of stepped into a hornet’s nest above with replies to his comment, but I think he’s smart to be doing some testing – testing of what you like to do vs. what she likes to do and who needs more control and if you can each find enough balance in the relationship. Much better to do that at the early stages of a relationship when it’s easier to move on if you need to.
loading....
I went to Vegas with my girlfriend. I paid for the room, the food and her Starbucks coffee.
Every morning she stood in line to get her Starbucks coffee.
On our last day in Vegas I told her I had no money. She still wanted her coffee but went to another line that had cheaper coffee. But after deciding a bit, she left that line too and told me she wasn’t in the mood for coffee.
When we got back home, I dropped her off. Later I drove by and told her our relationship was over.
I know I’m the type that is over giving, but once I see I’m being used, I’m quick to make a decision.
loading....
@Shane:
You most certainly ARE doing her a favor. Housing is a legitimate expense. If you weren’t letting her live with you, she’d have to be paying to live somewhere else, whether it was in the form of paying rent or her own mortgage. Housing is an ongoing utility cost, and by letting her live there for free, you’re essentially giving her the equivalent of an income stream equal to a housing expense.
In short, because of your generosity, she has an additional $800/month (or whatever it would cost for her to rent comparable accomodations) in her budget. The fact that you’d be paying the mortgage whether she were there or not is irrelevant. She’s realizing a net benefit because of your action.
loading....
Hey, All!
I’ve had personal finances work every which way with partners: keeping them separate for a while to make sure payments get made before combining them; one partner wanting me out of debt before having any joint expenses; and, usually with my being responsible for paying the bills when they become joint.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way to avoid the high anxiety, stress, and sometimes arguing is to live separately so there *aren’t* any joint expenses. (Seriouly-that’s how it went in my last relationship because I was going to once again be responsible for the budget and bills, and his spending habits were awful.)
Annie
loading....
Thanks Nicole,
I’m going to talk with her, so we can figure out the best thing for us.
Reading the above posts, I think I am going to by my girlfriend a pack of coke on the way home from work. Or some M&Ms, she likes those.
@Kevin
I realize this, but she will make the argument that she will live with her mom for free, which is where she would go if I had her move out.
loading....
Oh– one general recommendation…
After I started reading Your Money or Your Life (based on a recommendation from this site) I asked DH to read it too. If you haven’t read it, it isn’t really about money– it’s about goals, dreams, life paths, and how to achieve them. After we both read it we had lots and lots of deep discussions about it and financially we’re closer together than we were before, and he’s more interested and invested than he was before. (I’ve also gotten a bunch of friends to read it and they all found it thought provoking and discussion inducing too… a lot of my friends are at the mid-30s, “is this what I want to be doing the rest of my life” stage.)
The David Bach book on couples (Smart Couples Finish Rich) isn’t too bad… it’s sort of YMoYL-lite. It has some fun tests that you can take with your partner, which I like doing.
loading....
@Shane,
If you’re in a relationship with a 20-something who doesn’t feel the slightest bit of shame in the idea of moving back in with her mother, well … let’s just say she’s still got some growing up to do. I do wonder how her mother’s attitude (“You should be spending more money on my daughter!”) might change if her precious little princess were to show up back on her front doorstep, proclaiming she’s moving back in indefinitely.
I don’t know you or your girlfriend, but it sounds like you guys might be at very different points in your life, and it might be healthy to try and have an adult conversation about where each of you see the relationship going, and if you have enough in common to make it worth investing more of your valuable younger years on a relationship that you’re not both fully and completely committed to making work.
loading....
I think it’s OK for Kim to discuss the issue with her boyfriend, and for him to give his opinion on the topic. It’s no different than talking to any close friend about a topic. However, he can give advice but he can’t insist what she do, he doesn’t have that right as her boyfriend.
My wife and I have joint finances. I am mostly in charge. I frequently make attempts to give her more control. I discuss with her when I’m opening and closing accounts, moving money around, investing in this or that. She’s not really that interested and prefers to leave it to me. I try to keep a spreadsheet up to date for her that at least lists where all our accounts are, just in case I get hit by a bus.
Thinking in the hypothetical… I would not refuse to marry someone just because they had debt. However, I would probably delay until they had a plan and were making progress on reducing that debt. And if she was hiding debt from me… that’s really not a good sign. I would rather have an open problem than a secret problem, because with a secret problem you now have two problems – the original problem, and the lack of trust in the relationship.
loading....
I agree with RMoM, the hiding money stuff is big enough that I have a hard time with the “he’s perfect in every way but…” That question implies psychological issues and they should bee a couples counselor.
@Shane
A lot of couples who come from different perspectives wind up coming together, the frugal one spending more and the spender getting more comfortable with savings. However in an unhealthy relationship they can get MORE different as they each dig in and scare each other and make it worse.
If you and your girlfriend are looking at a permanent relationship does she expect any of her income to go toward living expenses? Or does she expect you to keep supporting her butt? I’m assuming she expects to be treated like an adult in other ways, so why does she expect to be supported like a child in this?
And the childish thing to say is “It’s my money and none of your business”, but if you are contributing money to her lifestyle
(as you are by supporting her) then it IS your business.
And regarding her arguement: “You would have these expenses anyway” doesn’t hold water. She takes showers, uses the stove and microwave, likely has touched the thermostat a time or two…it’s amazing how much utilities can go up with another person in the house. We have let family stay with us and they have gone up as much as $250/month per person (my mom is older, home all day, and likes it warmer/cooler than we do depending on the season). And none of that takes into account the price of your privacy and what you give up in personal freedom by taking on a roommate. That comfort is worth something.
My come back would be: “Perhaps the cost is marginal, but you are SAVING even more, so even if you pay half it is STILL cheaper than living alone and you can contribute the difference to your debt.” I would sit down and re-negotiate. Either she needs to move out and cover her own expenses or step up. If she doesn’t do one of the two a) you won’t have much respect for her before too much longer and b) Things are likely to get worse and end badly. If she can’t step up now then she won’t and you’re better off moving on to someone who takes responsibility more seriously. You may be dating, but she is a ROOMMATE until you get married and she should contribute as such.
loading....
@Brett,
I’m with you, buddy.
My husband I had the same issue when we got together. He was previously married with debt, a house, not earning much money due to just starting a job.
I had a decent job at the time (age 25), a house of my own and a car payment.
He had some habbits that I knew about, but didnt think they’d effect our budget, and I had some habbits that he knew about.
It wasnt until we bought a house together (and were trying to sell my home) that things started to get tight. We decided to combine accounts after we got married. I saw how much he was spending on his stuff and how much I was spending on my stuff.
We came to an agreement that we both get $25/week. First, it started out as using the debit card. However, after he would go over (and I’d get upset), or I would go over (and I’d get upset at myself!), we began using cash for the “me money.”
This money is his money to spend on whatever he wants every week. We call it “no questions asked” money.
If he wants to go and buy a case of beer – I cant question him. If I want to go and eat a $25 sushi lunch for work one day a week, he cant question it. It took some getting used to, but it worked out well for us!
I know $25 doesnt seem like alot of money to most, but it was perfect for us. He was OK with the amount, and I was OK with the amount…not to mention it was about all the budget could handle at the time.
So…instead of going to buy his chew, beer and Burger King every day, he has to choose what’s most important to him. He did so well, he ended up being able to buy himself a netbook! It was HIS money, and he saved for so long, how could I say anything about the purchase? I couldnt! It was HIS money.
Monday is our 3 year wedding anniversary, and I think we’ve made it to a happy medium when it comes to the frivalous things. We both know that if we want something, we have to save for it. I think that by having this “me money” in place for the last 2 years has really helped us stay on track to help pay down the debts we both came into the marriage with.
Good luck!
loading....
Hoo boy… I could write a 5,000 word response on this, but I won’t.
From personal experience, I think you MUST be on the same page concerning finances before you get serious in a relationship (moving in together, marriage, buying a house together, etc.). My ex and I weren’t on the same page, and our miserable relationship ended before it really began. We lived together, had debts, he didn’t care about paying them down, I “nagged”, and we broke up. No shock there. Glad we didn’t get married or buy a house.
I will discuss finances fairly early in any future relationship. I am not the most savvy person in the finances department or extremely frugal, but I need whoever I am with to have similar goals and spending/saving mentality. If you can’t afford it, don’t buy it!
If you can’t openly discuss finances in your relationship, there is a huge problem.
As far as the first question in the post goes, I am not quite sure what her boyfriend is suggesting. It sounds pretty bogus to me. You don’t lower your credit score significantly by paying down debt. In fact, it usually goes up as utilization goes down.
loading....
I got married last year. We each had our own house, and we agreed to sell mine. I had built up about $18,000 in *STUPID STUPID* consumer debt that I refinanced with a second mortgage on my house. Before I proposed to my wife, I told her about my financial situation. I thought it was necessary to disclose everything about my money situation before we got married. She understood and told me about her credit card debts. Thankfully, I was able to pay off my debt in full with the home sale, and some of her debts as well.
When we first got married, we agreed to pool our finances into one main account. That hasn’t happened yet, and we still maintain separate checking accounts. As long as we are on the same page about things, I don’t think it’s a big deal. She covers the mortgage, home insurance, and her car payments. I cover utilities, food, car insurance, and put money in our emergency fund. I think as long as we basically split our household expenses, that’s fine with us. She still has some credit card debt, but she will have it paid off soon. We both contribute to our company 401k’s. We discuss expenses (NFL Sunday Ticket, a puppy) and how much we’re willing to spend on things.
I think it’s a good thing that we have an equal say in how our money is spent. It gives us a sense of control over our money, and we both know how much money we have and can spend on things. I think it would be very difficult to have one person in a marriage controlling all the money….the other person wouldn’t know how much spending is too much or what exactly is going on with the finances. I want my wife to know as much about our money situation as I do….I’m a banker, so it would be easy for her to just turn over control to me. But I still want her to know how our money and bills work. That way, if I’m not around for something, then I trust her to make a good decision for both of us.
That level of trust is invaluable. I play poker occasionally, and I have a dedicated poker bankroll which goes up and goes down but never hits zero. My wife knows that I am not taking money out of the household to play poker. My dad likes to gamble, but he kept his losses hidden from my mom when they were married, and I think it contributed to their divorce. My mom tells my wife to make me stop playing poker. Without that understanding about my separate poker money, my wife might not be okay with it.
So far, our current arrangement is working out just fine. We don’t fly blind, and we don’t obsess over every little thing. We trust each other to make good money decisions.
loading....
I haven’t read the comments yet because I’d like to answer JD’s really excellent questions. One of the reasons I love reading JD’s stories is that his relationship is a lot like mine in many ways. My husband has been the profligate spender, in debt to his eyeballs, and it’s been work for me to keep my hands off and let him be a grownup and deal with it himself. He doesn’t lie about it, and I don’t make ultimatums. He’s come so far since we first started dating, when he was chronically unemployed and declaring bankruptcy. (Not as far as JD but I can always hope!) And I’ve come a long way too, not letting myself worry too much, and really appreciating the non-financial value he brings to our partnership. It’s a delicate balance but it’s working for us.
We also have separate finances, mainly because our opposite money habits would drive each other completely mad. But we are both doing ok. I’m saving as much as I possibly can; he’s working on his debt; we manage to take care of our home and enjoy our life together, and not fight about money. Not bad.
loading....
I think that my wife and I have a very open relationship. (I’d like to think that she agrees with this assessment.) We talk about anything. We also talked about finances when we were dating. I was in a stronger financial position than she was when we dated. When we talked about money while dating I was mostly concerned about gauging her general attitude about money. Since we got married, money has become just one of the many things that are a matter of trust between her and me. Neither one of us has ever violated that trust which has made for a very good relationship so far. Because of that trust we feel that we are good partners for each other.
loading....
@ Brett #3
Unfortunately, it has become apparent that a small “war of the sexes” has began on here, and I know it was not your intention. Here is what I propose:
Relationships are built mainly on trust, love and compromise. If you both truly love eachother, you will compromise by both making the necessary sacrifices in order to better your future together and to reach your financial goals. It takes two to make things work, so if one partner refuses to comprimise, then things will not work; it is that simple.
Therefore, I suggest creating an “allowance” system where each month, both of you take a certain amount from your paycheck and are allowed to indulge in your delights up until a specific financial amount, that way, neither feels deprived, and you both remain on track to that wonderful trip.
Best of Luck.
@Kat << “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” eh?
loading....
Shane:
is it wrong for me to charge my girlfriend a small rent and some of the utilities?
absolutely not. but ideally this would have been discussed Before she moved in. now it’s going to be quite akward to change the previous agreement.
Also, is it wrong for me to try and push her some on her debt, given the situation?
not if you are planning on a future with her, because it will affect you both.
in my humble opinion, the best way to approach this conversation is in terms of the relationship. is this sustainable for you long term? is this the dynamic you want? if not, share that with her, but in terms of feelings, not cold hard cash, and actions that could be taken together to remedy the situation. maybe she’s not quite understanding that if she contributes you can save money to decorate the spare room so it suits both your needs, to travel, to enhance your relationship.
what strikes me most about your comments is that she seems to have no regard for your feelings, concerns, or priorities. if she is thinking of a future with you, she needs to take your wants and concerns into account.
my fiancee is very generous. he has the mentality that men always pay. we share everything now (money, bills) so it doesn’t matter who pays anymore, but when we first started dating i had to force him to let me pay. i would actually tell him “you are my boyfriend, not my piggy bank.”
she needs to hear and understand that. it’s a partnership.
loading....
@ Dave #34 “Being married, but living single isn’t much fun.”
Hoo boy, that is true, and so very sad. I have seen an awful lot of “married” people who are really just roommates. They don’t necessarily fight, they aren’t necessarily out tomcatting with other partners, but they don’t share each others’ lives in any meaningful way.
Domestic relationships take work from both partners. If only one partner is willing to do the work, then the other person isn’t really being a partner.
Sometimes, there’s enough good stuff left to gloss over the fact that one partner just isn’t pulling his/her weight – and where that usually seems to come down is in childcare, housekeeping, or MONEY categories. But I’m getting to the point where I’d rather argue about what’s not going well than just tell myself “everything else is fine.”
Very interesting discussions here.
loading....