This article is by freelance writer Roger White and staff writer April Dykman. It originally appeared on Roger’s blog in a different format.
April
As many GRS readers know, last year I quit my job to become a full-time freelancer. The hardest thing about moving on was leaving coworkers like Roger White, a magazine editor and author of the funniest interoffice e-mails ever. Roger and I teamed up to bring you his story about a recent experience paying for an auto repair, along with tactical advice about how to dispute your mechanic bill.
Roger
Our little family was tooling along this year, struggling to stay within our monthly budget while juggling life’s big-ticket items—you know: braces, countless teenage daughter items, summer camp fees times number of children squared, etc., etc.—when the two most feared words in all of suburbia’s lexicon knocked us flat.
Car repair.
Funny thing is, it all started with just a broken brake light. I’m sitting in my wife’s car at a stop light, waiting to turn right, when a smiling woman pulls up next to me and says, “Hey, your right rear light is out. Better get it fixed, ’cause the cops will stop you for that.”
Instant adrenaline panic overdrive. The cops! Where?
Ever since I was a teenager, having a cop stop me for any reason has always struck fear deep in my heart, even when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. Readers of a certain age will remember the CSNY lyric: “Like looking in my mirror and seeing a police car!”
So the wife and I promptly hightailed it over to our nearest franchise fix-it shop, thinking that a broken rear light costs, what, five bucks maybe?
Hah. The franchise fix-it shop guys saw us coming a mile away. I should have known. I can’t think of any other scenario where I feel so much like a life-sized walking all-day sucker than talking with the mechanic man. I’m thinking I’m not alone on this.
I believe that auto repair types begin sizing you up for the big squeeze the minute you walk in the door.
“Hello, sir, I see you and your wife have a Honda V6.”
“Uh, yes.”
“Does your model have the actuated re-inverter or self-regulating?”
“What?” Off guard, I blurt, “Actuated, I think. Really, we just need a brake light…”
“Uh oh. Actuated.”
(The other guy behind the counter sadly shakes his head at this point. The choreography is keen and well-executed, I must say.)
Still, I play along, because I don’t know enough about cars to bluff them, and they know that I don’t know. Furthermore, I know that they know I don’t know. You know?
Dang, I should have said self-regulating. We’re already off on the wrong foot.
“Well, it may be self-regulating, I’m not sure.”
“No, you said actuated.”
“Is that going to be a problem?” I ask.
“Depends. What are you in for?”
“Busted rear light.”
“Hmmmm.”
More head shaking. Some computer clacking, looking in reference manuals.
We left the car with the fix-it shop crew, said three quick Hail Marios to the Great Grease Gods, hoped and prayed for the best, and went about our day. I tried Googling “re-inverter,” but all I got was something about how to design a death-ray gun. When we got the call that the car was ready, we swallowed our gum, put on our all-day sucker heads, and made our way back to the garage. A different guy behind the counter gave us a bill that was a good 25% over the estimate. On the bill was a hefty item—I kid you not—that was labeled “service fee,” on top of labor, parts, tax, recycling charges, oil disposal fee, and all the rest.
My wife, always the braver of us, questioned this item, noting that the estimate was much less than the sum before us.
“This is way over what you said,” Sue said right out loud, turning all heads in the shop. I cringed. In a western movie, this was one of those moments where the piano player stopped playing and the saloon grew deathly silent. “What is this service charge?”
I expected another stern, condescending talking-to about how variable fluctuations in the world of auto parts derivatives combined with the situation in Libya, hourly swings in crude oil prices, and our particular vehicle’s unfortunate re-inverter configuration all coalesced in the time it took to repair our rear brake light to necessitate an additional service charge. But the guy looked at the bill, looked at my wife, and said, “Huh. Don’t know what that is. I’ll take it off.”
Booiiiinnng. That was the sound of my brain leaping out of my skull and bouncing on the floor. How many people, I wondered as I chased my brain across the floor, pay this “service charge” without a second thought?
April
Repairs are one of the costs that come with car ownership, but it sure is confusing when you don’t speak the lingo. When I go to the repair shop, I’m on the phone with my dad the whole time, repeating everything the mechanic says to my father, then repeating everything my dad says to the mechanic. I should just hand the mechanic my phone and cut myself out of the equation.
Like Roger, I probably wouldn’t dispute my bill, either. I know how anti-GRS that sounds, but I’m being honest. I hate making a scene, and I’m likely to assume it’s my own ignorance about cars that’s the problem, not the service charge.
Obviously, Sue is the one who’s got it right. If a charge looks wrong, you should ask about it. This doesn’t necessarily mean the shop is trying to cheat you — mechanics are human and they can make honest mistakes. How do you make sure you’re being billed fairly? I did some digging and found the following advice for those of us who aren’t so mechanically inclined:
- Check to see if your car is under warranty. If it is, you’ll need to take it to the dealer or an authorized repair facility.
- Find a good auto shop. Ask coworkers, friends, and neighbors where they take their vehicles for repairs. Is the shop affiliated with AAA or does it have technicians certified by the National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE)? Do you like the look of the place (clean, organized, etc.)?
- Ask for a written estimate before the work starts. It’s not uncommon for the actual bill to be 10-20% higher, or more if the mechanic finds that the problem is more complicated.
- Ask for the mechanic to review your bill with you. It might seem tedious, but it can save you money, as Roger found out. Mistakes happen all of the time. Compare the charges with your estimate.
- If you have a bad feeling about the work performed, dispute your bill carefully. If you can’t find a resolution, ask for the old parts (should you need evidence) and take your dispute, in writing, through the chain of command. If necessary, you might turn to the Better Business Bureau or, as a last resort, legal action.
Finally, if you’re happy with the service you receive, become a regular, preferably at a local body shop. From Edmunds.com:
“The one-on-one relationship between driver and mechanic that smaller repair shops foster can really help consumers have confidence in both the work that’s performed and in the vehicle itself. Local mechanics are more willing to help you understand how your car performs and what it needs. You can ask to look under the hood or the chassis with your local mechanic, and perhaps learn something about what goes where or why a service needs to be performed.”
In other words, you might feel a little less clueless each time you bring in your car.
Sources: AA1Car, Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Edmunds
Roger
Meanwhile, back at the franchise fix-it shop…
“By the way,” says the mechanic, “you need new struts. They’re bleeding onto your brakes. That’s about $600 without tax.”
Flush with new confidence instilled by wifey, I took my turn. “Oh, no you don’t. I know how you guys operate. Struts. No such thing as struts, I bet.”
I got some looks of approval from some of the other guy customers as we walked out of the shop. I think they were looks of approval, anyway. I had a bit of difficulty getting my all-day sucker-head in the car, but we drove away with a bit of salvaged pride. Struts, indeed.
“Hey, what’s that noise, hon?”
Readers, got any tips or stories of your own to share? Leave them in the comments!
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I cant work out whether or not the part about the struts at the end is tongue in cheek or not, struts being part of the suspention & oil filled with a tendancy to leak when they are shot
Another Idea would be to look for second opinions on the expencive jobs (second quote wont hurt either)
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Ha, yes, the struts part is tongue-in-cheek. Good idea about the second estimate!
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I had the same problem with my car. I took it to Big O’s (now a privately owned busines) in my hometown to get a second opinion. The Manager came out and looked at my car and told me the struts needed replaced. he also told me that struts need replacement every 50,000 miles and that mine have not yet been replac3ed..He also stated that they could start leaking and damage my car.I told him that I kept hearing a strange creaking noise every time I made a sharp left turn and if that would cause the problem..he told me it can. I believed him and paid over %500 to get my 2 front struts replaced. When I picked up my car, the manager told me they test drove the car and didn’t hear the noise anymore. The next day, I started to hear the noise very slightly. Then by the end of the week, it got worse than when I took it into the repair shop. I then went back and talked to a female worker. The Manager was not there Another guy test drove my car and heard the noise. She told me the struts could be defective. She told me to bring my car back the next day (when the manager was there) He was not there and she had another guy test drive my car. He then told her it was my CV Shaft that needed replaced and it would cost me $225. I told her “No”, that this is why I brought my car in the first time was for them to fix the noise when I turn. She then told me that my struts were leaking (which they never told me in the first place) i told her this really needed to be resolved. She started getting nasty with me and as I was leaving, she shouted to me Merry Christmas with a snide remark. As I was walking to my car, a female was parked next to me and she motioned me to her car. She overhead the conversation in the repair shop and told me that her husband could replace my CV shaft and said he was a mechanic. She also told me she heard the lady being very rude when I just wanted a resolution. As were were talking, the female worker came outside and told me to get off the property because I was disturbing her customers. The husband of the lady then came out of the shop and was asking me about where the noise was coming from. I was telling him and again the lady from the store came out and yelled for me to get off the property. The lady’s husband who offered to help me, told the lady “I’m talking to her”…We left the property and they went with me to order the part for my car. These people were very nice and helpful to me. I just wanted the repair shop to resolve the problem with me because I spent over $500 and they didn’t fix the problem. They are supposed to be certified, not me. A friend of mine then told me to take my car to a guy he knows that has a shop downtown. He drove with me in my car to hear the noise and he told me it sounded like my CV joint..I told him what the repair shop told me about replacing my struts every 50,000 miles. he told me that was incorrect! He told me you replace them only if they startleaking bad,..I feel I just got ripped off by this business..and now the Manager told me I am not welcome in the store anymore…
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Three words: small claims court. ASAP! You don’t need a lawyer, and you can get the folks you talked to to testify, maybe.
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Find a shop you can trust. There are better options than going to a franchise shop. Second, I know it’s just a story but the whole “actuated reinverter” wouldn’t be necessary for the repair shop to ascertain your knowledge level of cars. If you’re going in for a broken tail light that’s enough information right there.
Bottom line is most repair places are trustworthy. It’s worth it to ask around ahead of time and find a shop near you that people trust.
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My local Firestone (a chain) is a pretty good shop. I like that they keep my records and I can get consistent service across the country. And if there’s a complaint (I had one with another shop out of town) you can escalate it with a regional manager. For the record, the problem wasn’t Firestone’s fault but the local parts dealer who sold them my new fuel pump with a huge markup. I had to eat the charges because it was an emergency repair outside of town. Now, about those dealers… curse them and their price gouging.
The best way to know you’re getting a fair deal is to learn how your car works, of course.
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Wanted to second the vote for Firestone. I know people usually knock chains, but I have consistently had good luck with them. I moved from Massachusetts to DC and in both areas they have been great about telling me what I could do regarding service and then telling me what I should do. Never once have I felt that they have tried to “up-sell” me or charge me for work that wasn’t done well or wasn’t necessary.
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I also trust my Firestone shop in Durham, NC. I’ve tried a few places in the area, and ended up not trusting something they say for one reason or another (I do know enough about cars to realize when someone’s full of BS).
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On the other hand, I’d avoid Meineke at all costs. I went in needing an oil change and they came back and quoted me $370 because I “also needed 8 new platinum spark plugs”. I looked at the guy and said, “First of all, I drive a Civic. I don’t need platinum anything. Second of all, I have a four-cylinder engine. What do you intend to do with the extra four plugs? That’s like telling me I need 8 new tires. Change my oil for the $30 you advertised and I’ll be leaving.”
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What kills me is that u can get your mechanic to do work but always there is extras..
this needs doing, etc, etc
thats where they make their money..
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I think its good also if you get referred and use that name when u go the mechanic..
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I tend to take advantage of my friends who are car nuts and always have “project” cars. They can usually explain what’s wrong, give a ballpark for what it’ll cost to fix and recommend a shop or two. I then return the favor with beer and manual labor when their “project” needs help and learn a few things myself.
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And there’s always the cartalk guys.
We actually use the mechanic in town that is known for having somewhat higher than average prices but never telling you that you need things you don’t, and fixing things correctly the first time, etc. Great yelp reviews and everybody you ask in town uses them, and some have horror stories about other places in town (like the Jiffy Lube). There’s a plumber in town who is similarly awesome. Other folks we’ve had to navigate our way through.
Sadly… they can no longer do oil changes on our Civic Hybrid because when we were out of town, our battery needed to be replaced and the dealer out of town changed the shield on the bottom of the car, and our regular guys can no longer get in.
Just asking is really important. It’s amazing how much money you can save if you do. http://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/just-ask/
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I used to hate that I “had” to let my husband handle car stuff – my stupid ego got in the way of my good sense. The truth is that I just don’t know enough about cars, and he knows TONS. I’ve since realized that being married is fantastic in the arena of “divide and conquer”. He knows about car stuff, ergo, he takes care of car stuff, and I don’t have to worry about it!
I do love that Roger’s wife questioned the service charge. I think I’d do the same, especially if it wasn’t part of the original estimate.
The psychology of the situation is interesting… the reason why many people won’t debate something like the service charge is because they’re worried about what the person on the other side of counter thinks about them.
In reality, though, who cares?!?!
The worst that could happen is that they don’t remove the service charge, and I take my business elsewhere next time if I don’t like the way they treated me. That means that I’ll never see them again, so I don’t care what they think of me.
If, however, they DO take it off, and I choose to come back, they’ll know that I’ll speak my mind and (hopefully) won’t try to yank my chain.
Excellent article!!!
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One other piece of advice I’d add: If you’re having a part replaced, ask to see the old part.
Some shops have been caught charging customers for replacing parts that they haven’t actually replaced. Ask to see the part they took out (and bonus points if you ask them to show you what’s wrong with it and why it had to be replaced in the first place).
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Agreed. Before I found my current honest local mechanic, I actually went a step further — I didn’t just ask to SEE the broken/replaced part, I asked FOR the part itself upfront. That way, they couldn’t just show me the “broken pump” they kept to show customers who asked to see such things…they actually had to give me something.
Most of the time, when they’d give it to me, I’d take it, then turn around and say “You know what, I thought I might have had some use for this, but go ahead and recycle it.”
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I like it when a repair shop actually gives you the old part. If they do this for every part they replace, you have more assurance that the part came from your vehicle, and it’s not just something they show to everyone who had that part replaced.
The best shops are always clear and fair on what the charges will be, and will call you before doing extra work over the estimate. They have to overcome the bad reputation that ripoff shops have given the whole industry.
I once had a repair shop try to charge me with replacing a part that my car is not equipped with. After confronting them, they hastily agreed to significantly reduce the part of the bill that was legitimate, as an apology for their “error.” I never returned to that shop.
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Really… going to a repair shop to change a lightbulb? There are videos on Youtube on how to change just about anything on any model of car. There is a lot of stuff you can do at home, don’t be scared.
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That’s for certain. I’m clueless when it comes to cars, but I’ve figured out how to change my own bulbs (so simple it’s a crime to pay someone for it) and even the entire tail light assembly.
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i have also found that most folks at the auto parts stores are very willing to help. they can tell you if you need to change the whole lamp or if a bulb is all you need.
i have taught myself mechanical/plumbing/electrical/carpentry stuff because i will never pay someone to do the stuff i can do. educate yourself or expect to get scammed. you’d never do it with your money, why would you do it with your car???
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That’s the same thing I thought. If you can replace a household light bulb, you can replace a bulb (brake/headlight/whatever) in a car. Just go into any auto parts store, tell them the make/model of car and they’ll even find it for you at no charge.
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There are you tube videos of how to fix many little car things too!
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Heck, I’ve come across a couple parts stores where employees will actually walk out to the parking lot and replace the lightbulb – or battery – for you! Free!
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Ditto on the light-bulb moment. It’s generally a fairly simple process. If you do it right there at the auto-parts place, they might lend you a screwdriver or, as someone else noted, an employee to come out and help you with it. Takes 5 minutes of the guy’s day, but it makes you a customer for life.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say you can fix ANYTHING on your car with help from the Internet. If you foul up, it might mess with the remaining time (if any) in the warranty. It might also mess with your ability to drive to work on Monday.
Too, some people are nervous about going under their cars. Others don’t have an actual place to do it; for example, HOA rules might disallow doing auto work in your driveway, and not everyone has a garage.
There are some things I simply don’t want to do. Basic auto stuff, e.g. bulbs and battery, sure. Re-doing the brakes? I leave that to a professional. I won’t drill my own teeth, either.
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Any idea how much it costs to change wipers?
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Sorry, I couldn’t reply directly to the wipers guy below – Windshield wipers are very simple to repair, you can get middle of the line ones at an auto repair shop for about $15 a piece (when they’re not on sale), and the instructions are usually right on the box. Check your instruction manual for your car too, and it will tell you what type to buy. Easy peasy, even a 18 yr old girl can do it
My dad made sure I knew simple car repairs before I went off to college and that knowledge has paid for itself many times over.
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I usually refer people who don’t know how to do stuff like windshield wipers and batteries to Advance Auto, as they actually advertise that they will do that for free (on most cars)
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Yea, I’m actually surprised these places are still in business. Unless you need specialized tools, you can fix just about anything on your car with the help of the internet- both to find the best/least expensive parts, and to learn how to do things. I’ve saved thousands of dollars on car repairs in the past two years by having my boyfriend, who had never done a single thing to a car before then, do repairs for me. Simply by learning it online.
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Actually, replacing a bulb is not always as easy as it sounds. The first time one of my headlight went, neither my husband nor I could figure out how to change the gd thing. It was nothing like the cars either of us had previously owned. We ended up taking it to the shop and asking them to show us how when I got my oil changed. (Per our rental lease, we are not allowed to work on our cars in the apartment parking lot.) It turns out that you have to take out the air filter and pull the headlight assembly out to change the bulb. It’s a different process for the other headlight too. It’s ridiculously inconvient!
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I had a heck of a time replacing a light bulb on a 95 Taurus, and spent an afternoon replacing the entire housing of the tailight on my Eagle Talon (don’t remember the year, 99 maybe)
It has gotten considerably easier with my 2009 Focus. I did find out though, if a taillight burns out during bumper-to-bumper warranty, that the shop replaces it for free, saving me a couple bucks at pep boys.
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Whenever I buy a car, the first thing i buy for it is a “Haynes” manual. The internet is great for a lot of things, but for just showing you how things come apart and where they go, it’s the best.
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I don’t mind questioning a bill because who else is going to care enough about my money? NO ONE! Recently, I had to spar over a medical bill and I saved myself $150. That’s $150 back in my pocket, where it belongs.
I honestly don’t understand why people don’t question more of their bills/services. For example, my internet company decided to hike my bill without giving me warning. I called them up and said I’d only pay the same price I had been paying the past 2 years. There’s no need to be mean or rude about it, but stand up for yourselves and your money!
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“Nobody cares about your money more than you do.” Everybody else cares about my money too. They just care about how to take more of it from me
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I think that is one of the main gripes about our health-care system. No one knows what all these unnecessary steps costs them and their insurance.
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What’s worse than not knowing and getting f***ed, is knowing exactly what is wrong and having the mechanic try to convince you that you don’t know what you’re talking about. As a minority woman, I went (alone) to a shop to get an axel repaired…I knew exactly what part I needed and how long it should have taken to put it in. Why did the guy at the counter and I get into a tiff over whether or not my car was a 4 or 6 cylinder (it was 6, he insisted I was wrong). They already had my car and were supposedly looking at the “problem” to diagnosis for me…despite the fact that I told them what the problem was. So, after the tiff I thought, I don’t have to get service here, they don’t even respect me! I asked for my car back…they took an hour to get it back to me. I commenced to tell everyone I knew to never go there!
I ended up finding a mechanic a couple of towns away that understood that I knew what I was talking about…they fixed it and charged a minimal installation fee…I ended up taking my car there for everything from that point forward.
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Yeah, You know all about your “axel”. That’s why you can’t spell it?
AXLE
To be fair, if anybody male, female or transgender came into my shop, I would still confirm the problem /cause before I carried out any work. Especially if they said “the axel is broke….” You would be coming in on a tow truck.
I believe that the biggest issue in a lot of the cases above is an over exaggerated sense of ones own ability. Who would the customer blame if they replaced the part they were “told to” and the problem was not fixed?
If people know whats wrong, know what parts they need, and know how to fix it, why are you taking it to a shop?
Because of rules, regs, and past experience, most shops are NOT going to take the word of a customer that they have not built up a good history with. Because they WILL get burned.
Vehicle repair follows the same process each and every time;
Problem>Diagnose>Consult>Repair>Confirm
Yes there are scam artists, yes, they deserve to be exposed, but people need to find a trustworthy shop, and have confidence in them.
As stated, clarifying something is ok, and a decent shop would be cool with that.
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This article supports my belief, that unless you are making enough money to throw it away on car repairs, everyone needs to have a basic understanding of automotive repair. Understand how to change the oil and all your exterior lights. Know how to change a tire. You’ll save yourself at least 10000 over lifetime, I can guarantee it.
I actually use a franchise shop because it’s within walking distance of my home and have built a good reputation with the manager. He knows not to f*** me over because I recommend his shop to my coworkers; he better remain an honest SOB.
To learn more about cars, find good local mechanics and learn how to do simple repairs yourself, check out cartalk.com. It is a wealth of information. And find a garage you like and stick to them. When you bring the car in for the first time (new to the area, needed a new mechanic, or just got a new car), explain you want to be a repeat customer and it benefits them to treat you with respect.
If a mechanic says something needs to be replaced, ask to see the part. Then have them show you the replacement part. This can be tricky though because sometimes they use an old beat up part they keep lying around as the example of ‘your’ part needing replacement.
I could write a whole blog about how not to let the mechanic screw you over.
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“You’ll save $10k over its lifetime.” I’m not sure about that. In the ten years I’ve had my car, I think I’ve spent half of that on repairs and routine servicing. Assuming I had the tools and knowledge to do those jobs myself, I’d probably only save the labor charges — maybe a couple of grand.
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Okay and multiply that over the course of your life and you get aleast 10k, much more if you have a wife and kid with a car.
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The labor is the killer. My BMW has a know issue that’s internal to the engine. It’s a $100 part, but 10 hours of labor. I’ll do it myself when it goes, and save about $1200.
Most shops charge $100 to $120 per hour. Doing small repairs yourself will save a ton.
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I had an issue with the remote start in my car, so I call the dealer and they advise me to bring the car in and all the remotes. I should have tried the basics first, but in the end, it turned out to be a dead battery in one of the remotes.
They wanted to charge me $5 for the battery (which I’m OK with) and $60 for “installation”. I challenged it, and challenged it to the tech’s manager who tried to argue that his technician had to troubleshoot the issue and that takes time. I can understand that, but $60 to change a battery the size of a AA battery is just criminal. I wound up paying for the battery, and learning a good “do some research” lesson along the way!
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If they truly charged you $60 for “installation” I’d be pissed. If he really wanted to charge for his mechanic’s time, he should have charged you a diagnostic fee, which isn’t unreasonable.
The NTB by my apartment charges $20 just to look at something, and you’re stuck with that charge no matter what. Dealers will charge you more, but if you decide to get the work done with them, they will apply it as a credit to the work.
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Surely you’ve heard the parable of the retired GE engineer? This is exactly analogous to your situation.
One day in the early days of computing, General Electric had a problem with their computer. All of their engineers took a look at the problem. Although each was wise, they were unable to understand the complexity of the machinery and repair the error. A call was made to the retired engineer who had helped in the original set up of the machine.
The retired engineer walked around the machine for a few minutes, just looking it over, not touching anything. After a few minutes, He took out a piece of chalk, walked over and placed a large X on one particular part of the machine. He then said’ “Tap it here with a hammer, just once.”
After the one tap, the computer roared back to life and began working!
A few days later, GE received an invoice from the retired engineer for $10,000! This was a lot of money in those days, so they returned it to the engineer and asked that he itemize his invoice.
A few days later, they received an itemized bill which read:
Chalk for one X mark – $1.00
Knowing where to place the X – $9,999.00
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That is hilarious.
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Finding an auto mechanic/shop you can trust is invaluable. It’s not different than trusting your dentist, or any other person you have a professional relationship with.
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One of the best lessons I learned early on in my car owning life was have a great mechanic you can trust. Luckily I learned this when I was young (early 20′s), female and used to mechanics treating you as clueless. Based on recommendations I found someone who ran his own small shop. When the dealer had a recall and I was on the phone with the service folks after dropping off my car and was told the faulty thing could only be fixed safely if they fixed x,y, and z as well (at my expense), I called my mechanic up for advice. He told be they were lying and to tell them I would bring the car back for the recall after “my regular mechanic” fixed the other stuff. Lo and behold when I showed up to pick up the car the recall items were completed. I still had to fix the leaky radiator they noticed but my regular guy did it for much less.
Now our two family cars have 240K and 227K on them and are going strong. My mechanic thinks I can get about 300K out of each one and we have a great dialog about what things need to be maintained/fixed and what don’t. I love that I totally trust him and taking care of the cars is less stressful because of our good relationship.
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Having a local mechanic in your corner is a great feeling. I don’t go to the mechanic all that often but when I do it’s always the same place, and after years of this, I know the guy is not trying to hustle me. Plus they’ll usually cut you a good deal as opposed to corporate places that run on more cookie cutter pricing.
I go to the mechanic with a few of my friends (if I can’t help them myself) to make sure they are not getting scammed. Some of the things mechanics will try to pull if they think they can get away with it is outrageous (and hilarious if you get to catch them on it)
Even better though, is picking up a service manual, and a few wrenches and learning how to do some basic maintenance on your own. My first car was a junker that I kept alive with the help of my friends who knew more about cars than I did. After a while I graduated from basic oil chances to more advanced stuff under the hood. It’s satisfying, and I have likely saved a small fortune doing a lot of work myself!
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When I was single, I went to my now husband’s family’s mechanic for the first time. I was on a very limited budget. I told him that I was on such a budget and asked that he call me before performing any work so that I could ok it. It helped to find out what I was going to spend (pretty exactly) before I spent it. Because it was a small repair shop there weren’t extra random fees tacked on.
It also helped that my now-father-in-law called and told them to take care of me.
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We had a good friend that was a mechanic that helped us find a trustworthy shop. We have been frequenting the same shop for over 5 years now and have a good relationship with the owners. Often times they’ll just give us 10% off because they’re in a good mood. We get coupons in the mail from them and use them. I feel cheap sometimes always asking for discounts, but we’ve spent a TON of money there!!! Giving us the discounts and being honest with each interaction has kept us loyal customers.
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Years ago I had a component fail on my Lincoln that caused raw fuel to be dumped into the exhaust catching the catalytic converter on fire. Luckily a state trooper was right behind me with a fire extinguisher and put the fire out before there was any damage.
The Ford dealer that was doing the repair came back with an estimate of $600+ dollars. There was one line item I found very interesting.
$100 to remove and clean my spark plugs. That made me blink a bit and I asked the guy what that was about. He said “Well when the raw fuel went into the cylinders, it likely fouled your spark plugs, so we need to clean them.” Ignoring the fact that raw fuel goes into the cylinders EVERY TIME THE CYLINDER FIRES… I said “Spark plugs are $1.00 a piece. $100 for that job and I don’t even get new plugs out of it? Take it off the estimate.”
The service adviser said “Well ok, but we can’t be held responsible if it doesn’t run right”. I told him “Well if it doesn’t run right afterwards, you can diagnose that problem and if it needs NEW plugs, then let me know.”
Of course once the computer chip that failed was replaced, it started up and ran just fine for another 100k miles.
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I think in terms of saving money when going to the repair shop, it’s a good idea to learn some basic auto maintenance. Changing a light in most cars shouldn’t take more than ten minutes and a screwdriver, be it headlights or brake lights. Knowing an being able to do simple maintenance like checking/topping off fluids, replacing lights and air filter, changing the oil/filter, etc. will save you a lot in labor costs and are easy to learn. It also gives you the bonus of knowing a little more about your car so there’s less chance of being completely lost in mechanic lingo.
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This story reads like fiction or is very embellished. I’m surprised it didn’t end with him selling you a new car instead of replacing the light.
And yes, it’s crazy easy to replace a tail light and the sense of satisfaction that goes with doing it yourself is great.
Although I am one that loves paying for my oil to be changed. I consider my time to be valuable. I know how to change oil, I’ve done it before, I don’t care to do it again.
But, I’m still kind of scared of the kinds of bills that can come on nicer cars which is the main reason I’m hesitant to get a new(er) and nicer car even though I can now afford both the car and repairs that would come with it.
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Yeah, I thought there was some creative liberty in there too.
I live in an apartment, so doing my own oil would be a pain — not only that, but I don’t have a garage or other space to store tools, and I’d have to dispose of my oil properly. It’s just easier to have someone else do it.
I can change my own tire — that’s something everyone should learn to do.
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Funny post. Good comments.
The only thing that disappointed me about the post is that, while it gives a nice list of suggestions on how to navigate the potential pitfalls of contracted automobile maintenance, never does it even come close to suggesting that the customer might try to learn a little bit more about how his car actually operates. This subtly perpetuates the myth that cars are either too complex for the average person to understand even the basics, or, somehwat more controversially, they’re too low-brow for an educated person to bother learning much about.
They’re neither. And I realize that this is easy for me to say, as engineering was my undergraduate background, but many people should really start to learn the basics of how their cars work. Read howstuffworks. Get a book. Read some car blogs here and there. The same goes for your house and major appliances.
There’s an expectation on GetRichSlowly that everyone should know the fundamental basics of finance and investing. Many in this group believe that people should be ever striving to learn more about their food and cooking, even gardening or other pursuits. There’s no reason to not try to learn about some of these mechanical challenges, so that, like the previous commenter, you’ll understand that “raw” fuel coming into contact with spark plugs is not a reason for replacement.
Personally, I have a working knowledge of cars, and I have no desire to change my own oil. Doing so is not terribly cost effective if one doesn’t enjoy the pursuit. I would, at least, attempt to change a tail light, because there can be almost a 10x markup having that done by a mechanic.
I usually go to the Honda dealer for all our maintenance (repairs are few and far between). The tricks are to always bring the latest mailer of coupons, and instead of paying for their “recommended” maintenance schedule, go line-by-line with the service rep through the schedule contained in your owner’s manual.
There’s still going to be some markup at a dealership over local, but at the same time, they’re highly concerned about their national reputation and customer service, so you’re much less likely to get totally taken advantage of. Also, free cappuccino and Wi-Fi.
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I work at a dealership, and our management system has an option to automatically add a percentage of the parts & labor total as a “service fee” to the invoice (1.5-2%, I think). It’d be interesting to calculate and see if that’s the case here.
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The advice from readers to learn something about car repair is generally good but only if you (a) have any interest in the topic (I don’t) and (b) have the time to invest. I know the response would be it’s in my financial best interest to learn it, but that’s like telling someone that they need to learn everything about fabrics and sewing to buy the best-quality clothing – I’d rather find someone else I trust who knows this stuff and pay them for their expertise.
I’ve found it very effective when a (former) garage tells me they’ve found additional things that need work and my BS-meter goes off, to ask them to provide it in writing and I’ll get a 2nd opinion before having any work done. I ignore their dire warnings that the work must be done before the car is driven off their lot or it’ll fall apart/they can’t guarantee their rates. I tell them I’ll take that risk. The few times I’ve done this, I’ve been right that the proposed work wasn’t needed.
We are blessed with an excellent garage down the street from our house. Their advice was to take a car to the dealership if it’s still under warranty so you get the work done for free, and as soon as the warranty expires, find a garage you like and trust.
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Laura,
Nobody is suggesting that you become an “expert” on anything. But you need to know enough about most major things in your life to figure out whether or not people are taking advantage of you, or otherwise ripping you off.
I’m not an expert in investing, but I know enough to know that if someone is trying to sell me something with a sales load, that they’re lying if they tell me I “can’t go wrong” with that investment.
Fabrics? You need to know enough about your high quality fabrics to know if a) the fabrics are truly high quality or knock-offs and b) the fair price to pay.
As far as the interest and time for basic car repairs goes, well, if you couldn’t be bothered to save $100 in exchange for 20 minutes of your time, then I’m jealous. That’s a financial trade-off you have the luxury of making, and I don’t. And, if your time is truly that valuable, then surely it’s worth your time to learn how to change a tire — do you have two hours to wait for a tow truck to come and help you if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere?
Back to sewing… if a button pops off your shirt, do you repair it yourself or pay someone to do it? I don’t have the desire to become a seamstress, but I can put a button back on a shirt, so I think you’re exaggerating quite a bit.
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You can’t change a lightbulb? Really?
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How many writers does it take to change a lightbulb?
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Check out “How many dogs does it take to change a light bulb.” Hilarious!
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I really like the referrals in the mechanic database over at NPR’s Car Talk website: http://www.cartalk.com/content/mechx/.
You can read reviews and leave reviews for mechanics you’ve met.
What’s great about the site is they ask you to rate repair shops on some really good criteria, like whether they fix things right the first time and whether they treat women differently than they do men.
I agree strongly with all the commenters above who recommended finding a great local shop and staying with them. The Car Talk database is a good place to start.
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Oh, that is great, thanks so much for posting!
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I’m happy to see that the one we use is the one with the most ratings in our town.
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HAHAHA! Yep, the #1 thing anybody can do to save money on car repairs is spend the time in the beginning to find a great repair shop with honest mechanics. It took me 3-4 tries, but I found my shop and pass 6 others on the way just because my mechanic doesn’t charge me for things that don’t exist (I check on the internet) and they charge $40 an hour for labor instead of the regular $50-$75 an hour that is normal in Houston. My dude also realizes that a Chevy Aveo naturally has a few little issues that we can ignore but lets me know if it is something I really shouldn’t…
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One of the best things to do is ask around – friends, co workers, who ever is in your area, and ask where they get their work done.
Also don’t dismiss a franchise or local chain just because of who they are. I moved recently but before I moved my regularly went to a repair shop that was part of a regional chain. They were honest, did good work, always treated me fairly and never like I was stupid and other people I knew used them as well, all with the same good experience.
I used them for everything except a brake repair, my brakes weren’t working right, I was stressed out already, and I didn’t call my usual place and say “can you work on the brakes” I went to a brake “specialist”. And they fixed the brakes and I paid them. But they left me with dire warnings that I needed additional work done on the brakes and that I might be able to get 6 months of driving out of them but I should probably go ahead and make an appointment.
I didn’t because I felt pressured.
I ended up with another issues and took my car in and asked – can you look at this and check the brakes. And well check for anything else too.
My brakes it turned out – were fine. No problem at all. However, I had been ignoring a few things I thought were “minor” and I need about 6 things fixed or replaced, including the catalytic converter. I ended up with a hefty bill, (but I got a discount for having AAA) but if I’d had the few “minor” things checked out earlier it either I could have gotten them repaired as the problems arose and not spent as much all at once.
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Check out repairpal.com for an idea of what common repairs and maintenance *should* cost.
Is this story all for real or just fictionalized?
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Some things I have learned:
#1)-Try to buy cars that will last a long time statistically ( I like Hondas)
#2)-Don’t buy extended warranties unless your new car has a history of problems (might not want to buy it but…), I have bought them twice and never used them and the odds are very low that you will. Now people who have used them will argue differently but typically they are in the minority for the usage of the warranty. If you do buy it you can haggle on it, I got the dealer to lower the warranty amount by $300 the last time.
#3)-Find a good mechanic, I had one where I used to live but don’t have one yet.
#4)-Follow your manufacturers recommended maintenance not your dealers or service shop, know your service schedule well, otherwise they could will jam you with additional services/fees you don’t need.
#5)-Go to a dealer if they are good but a little more pricey. I take my car to the dealer for major stuff because of a couple reasons: They get it done right the first time, they give me discounts and have highly trained associates. I go to franchise service shops for in-expensive stuff where I can use coupons or I know they will be cheaper than my dealer for tires, brakes, etc..
#6)-You can negotiate certain prices. I call and ask different dealerships in the area their price and/or call using coupon information that was mailed to me from whoever.
#7)-Do a little research on your car if its making a certain noise. You can usually get an idea of the problem from car forums on the net for your specific model. A lot of the car forums have knowledgeable people and/or actual technicians contributing. You can go to a site like http://repairpal.com put in your model information and issue to get a cost range for your specific problem, usually you can do better by calling around.
#8)-Do more research on the issue as it might be a recall or something affected by a technical service bulletin(TSB). Recall information will usually be sent to you by the manufacturer but if there is a TSB you may never know. A good dealer will tell you and independent shops probably won’t know. The TSB tells the dealership about a potential issue and how to fix it. These are issues that don’t fall into recall status but cause problems and sometimes the bulletin indicates if the customer can be compensated out-of-warranty for labor and/or parts. A good site for basic info is http://www.edmunds.com/car-maintenance/guide-page.html. Also there is info at http://www.safercar.gov/. You can get the NHTSA TSB# from the listing. The older your car the more likely there are dozens of bulletins. Also most sites give you a summary of the TSB, its harder to get detailed descriptions and you usually have to pay or someone might post it on a forum. Here is a good explanation of TSBs http://www.cleverdude.com/content/find-technical-service-bulletins-tsbs-for-your-car-online/.
#9)-If your engine light comes on you can read the code with an oem code reader ($50 at amazon) and determine what the problem is yourself. I don’t have one but since many places charge $75 just to read the code even if say your gas cap isn’t tightened enough which will turn the engine light on.
#10)-The last thing on savings is ask if the dealership has unadvertised service specials, they usually do. I took my car in and they were able to stack a couple discounts to save me about 50% on service.
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don’t forget when purchasing a car and in the middle of the negotiation process to try and add in free services such as oil changes. A lot of dealers are able to tack this on rather than take money off the bottom-line price.
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For many years, I used a mechanic who had a time estimate book. Apparently this is something mechanics can buy. They then can tell you how long it’s going to take, and bill you *that*. My mechanic always stuck to the price for what needed to be done, only increasing it if they had to do something else. It saved them the trouble of computing real-time hours, I think, and it meant I didn’t have to deal with mark-up.
My partner is a motorhead now, so I let her do all the car arrangements. But I strongly agree that two signs of a good mechanic are ‘does it come in at the estimate,’ and ‘does he/she tell you what needs fixing– differentiating between what needs fixing now and what can wait.’ Don’t go to a mechanic that doesn’t do the latter.
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I have only the vaguest idea of all the systems that have to work together for my 16 yr old Honda to run. Have no interest in learning more, and – being an apartment dweller – I can’t even *wash* my car at home, much less change the oil.
There is a Midas franchise a short walk from the apartment. I took the car in once for an oil change and liked the way I was treated there (respectfully, with thorough and verifiable information – better than at our Honda dealer service place).
My car’s been in there now for everything from radiator hoses to brakes to shocks to spark plugs. It’s got over 240K miles and I expect it to make 300K.
My tips for saving money on car care: 1) read your owner’s manual. 2) know the regular maintenance schedule, put maintenance targets on your calendar, and keep your own maintenance log. This stuff should not, generally speaking, come as a surprise. 3) be courteous and patient with your repair staff, friendly if you can manage it. Friendly ALWAYS works. I’ve gotten discounts that I know were just due to me being nice.
Note on replacing light bulbs … it isn’t always that easy. My DH does our headlight/taillights, and on his 99 Accord they’re a snap. On my 95 Accord they are a thirty-minute ordeal. Just something about the assembly.
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First thing is find a mechanic you can trust! If you do that you will avoid a great deal of this grief. Ask your fiends, check with the Auto club (AAA), or check with a local school who may have an auto shop. Talk to people who have older well maintained cars and ask them where they go.
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I trust myself more than the dealer service department. I noticed a bolt on my oil pan was snapped off. Purchased all new fasteners and gaskets for the oil pan and exhaust manifold and pipe that had to be removed. Decided I really didn’t want to struggle under my del sol up on front wheel ramps and took parts to honda dealer to change out gasket. Some months later noticed oil leaking just enough to coat underside but not drip on ground. Investigated and found that they had not replaced snapped off bolt and all 22 bolts and nuts were severely undertorqued. I ended up doing the work myself the right way and torquing the fasteners to the required 9 ft/lbs. No one cares more about your car than you do.
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My father always said to look for a stand-alone shop that relies on repeat business. Pass on the chains. Also, ask at the Auto Zone, etc. who they recommend when you move to a new area. We got steered right to our guy.
Warning: if your stand-alone shop expands and builds a huge new building, check them out carefully. One of our good guys started ripping us off when he did, so we moved on.
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The best piece of advice if you don’t feel comfortable calling out a mechanic: shop around! Any legitimate shop should do an estimate for free and will find this a perfectly reasonable request. Remember, until they have your keys and signature, you don’t owe them anything. Getting estimates from multiple shops does a few things:
1) It allows market forces to work. Shops that are upfront and reasonably priced will be rewarded, and those that ask too much or fabricate extra problems will stand out alongside the honest ones.
2) It becomes more obvious which mechanics are making things up. If 4 out of the 5 mechanics say you need A, B, and C and the 5th says you also need D they’re either being thorough or lying.
3) It lets you run their competitor’s estimates by the others. At the second shop you can say, “hey, this guy quoted me this for this – does that look right to you?” Maybe you’ll get a better deal with the second shop, or maybe they will validate the previous shop. Either way, you’re empowered with more information when you decide.
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I hope you didn’t pay more than 10$ for that brake light. They cost 2-5$ at a parts store and take 15 minutes for installation by someone who has never installed one before.
Replacing a tail light is one of the simplest things you can do to a car.
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People do have to beware of dishonest mechanics – especially single women. I took my car in one time with a broken windshield wiper arm (not the motor – just the arm itself). I was told that the part cost over $150.00 – because it was the sports model. I was driving a Chevy Corsica at the time. I laughed and left. I bought the part at NAPA for $17.00 and put it on myself.
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A lot of comments say to find a trust worthy shop, and to ask car nut friends, etc etc etc. I was having trouble with my car, and I kept taking it back to the dealer ship and it was costing me big everytime. Finally they tried to get me for a couple of grand that I didn’t have, so I refused the service. I don’t know where I got the idea, but I went and checked the local Better Bussiness Bureau. They had an F, for over charging for unneeded work. They actually had a list of mechanics that were accredited by the BBB! I did some checking, and found out that one of them did all the work the city vehicles and I went there. They told me something amazing: I didn’t need anymore work, and it would be unethical for them to do anything. Ever since they ar the only shop I’ll use.
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So I didn’t really read through everyone’s comments but I do want to point out some good info for everyone to save you money.
Advance Auto Parts and I believe Autozone both offer the following services for free:
Battery test and replacement.
Alternator testing, both on and off car.
Windshield Wiper Replacing.
Engine code reading (the code readers can be bought for yourself, but a lot of parts stores off the service at no charge and can give you the code)
I worked at Advance Auto Parts for a few years and I know that if we weren’t too very busy, we’d go out and swap out the bulbs for the customers too. It was recommended for us to do so because we’d get returns for bad headlights because the customers would touch the glass with their bare hands, which would get the oil on them and cause them to break.
If you’re having an issue at all, I’d say stop at a place like that first. Even if you’re having an issue where your car is running bad but don’t have a check engine light on because you may never know if the light is burned out.
I’m not saying everyone that works at a shop like that will be helpful, because sometimes they do have some bad employees. But (at least at Advance Auto Parts) we didn’t work on commission, so it didn’t matter to us what we were able to get you to buy. The only time we ever made money on selling was during promotions, but it was usually when there was a sale on that item or we had excess and we were told to push that inventory. But that was something along the lines of $0.25-1 per item.
It’s just good business practice to help out the customer instead of trying to rip them off and be rude to them.
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Yelp.com is an excellent website for finding a trustworthy mechanic.
I think these are all great suggestions. I just want to add – don’t delay recommendations when your manual and/or mechanic indicate you’ve reached maintenance milestones, but you’re waiting to actually see your car broken down before you pull out your wallet. You will create much more costly repairs by skipping oil changes and refusing to pay for new brake pads.
Also, clean under your car’s hood periodically. Try to avoid parking and hygiene situations where mice/rats/bugs/maggots might end up in your car. I work on cars and you wouldn’t believe how foul some people are.
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What’s up with the little “this article!” sidebox? It’s weird looking, and appears as part of the normal text when reading via RSS.
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BTW………what is an actuated re-inverter vs. self-regulating.
I’m a car buff………..and that has got me wondering.
I’ve never heard those terms before.
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Here’s another article on how franchises like Jiffy Lube overcharge:
http://ccsparethoughts.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-jiffy-lube-charges-33625-for-oil.html
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I’m actually surprised that anyone would take a car into a mechanic to have lights replaced. For the 3 cars I’ve owned I bought the Haynes manual for each. If you don’t mind getting your hands a little dirty, you can take on a lot of the regular maintenance yourself and for the cost of the manual (the last one I bought was about ~$20 on Amazon Marketplace less than a year ago) you’ll save yourself a not insignificant amount of money over a few years. In the last year I’ve changed the headlights, and replaced a cracked interior door handle on my partner’s car and fixed the splash guard on my own car when I managed to rip it off in a parking lot.
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I often see articles and blogs say things like “take a dispute to the BBB, the Attorney General, or resort to legal action” but I’d like to point our another possibility. In most states, auto repair shops are required to be licensed. The state licensing agency can and will fine, or even pull the license of, the shop and/or the mechanic for individual infractions.
Even the threat of of a complaint to a licensing agency can be very effective. Here in Michigan at least, threats of complaints to the BBB and the Attorney General rarely elicit much of a response. But whip out a Michigan Bureau of Automotive Regulation complaint form and start filling in blanks on the service manager’s desk, and suddenly a compromise may become possible.
It’s not just for auto repair either – it works with any service business that requires a license. In the past 20 years I’ve had to follow through on these threats against everything from auto repair shops to (federally-licensed) mortgage banks. Suddenly ongoing disputes were immediately and satisfactorily resolved in my favor.
Just make sure you know the exact name of the licensing agency – and use it. Thanks to the internet, that’s pretty easy to find. “I’ll report you to the state” or “I’ll file a complaint with the government” tells the offender you don’t really know who to report it too, and they will ignore it. But throw out names like State Bureau of Commercial Services or Federal Office of Thrift Supervision and I bet you see their eyes bug out a little.
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I’m a tech at a local Jaguar/Porsche dealership. I’ve been in “the car scene” all my life. Only had someone else work on one of my own vehicles once, so excuse my ignorance when I ask, why wouldn’t you want someone like me (received an associates degree in automotive repair and another in pre-engineering, certified by ASE, certified by the automotive company I work for) to tell you the other things you find wrong with your car while it’s in for an oil change?
I can’t speak for all shops but us techs don’t get paid for inspecting your vehicle and personally it takes me about a half hour to complete. That’s a half hour of my own time just to let you know whats going on under that car of yours. Where else can you go to get a certified professional to check out anything for free now-a-days? It’s totally your choice if you want the broken/worn/leaking part fixed/replaced, but isn’t it nice to know your shocks are leaking? I’m not saying get it replaced at the dealer, because, their rates are ridiculous. (I think ours are $150 an hour and I only get paid $9.50 but that’s a whole different rant)
If I was one of my customers, I would settle for the overpriced oil change from the dealer if it includes a free inspection and take the list of suggested repairs and take it to a trusted TECHNICIAN (there is a difference between techs and mechanics). If you do have friends who are techs, don’t take advantage of us, pay us. :]
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You forgot one thing – know the laws in your state. Some states require that actual charges must be no more than 20% (or 10%, etc.) than the estimate without approval from the vehicle owner. If they are in violation of that, even if the charges are legit, it is an automatic bill reduction (or you pay it and file a complaint with the appropriate authority).
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I don’t have a comment about the article itself, but I accidentally clicked on the photo in this article, only to discover (by browsing the Flickr photostream) that this sign stood less than two miles from where I live (until the building was torn down in 2007). Small world.
Strange to go through his photostream and see stores that I knew very well growing up but have since been closed/shut down/whatever. Definitely made my morning, reliving a few old memories.
Thanks for picking that photograph out of a hat, whoever’s responsible.
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My wife recently went to a Honda dealership for an oil change and walked out with a $1300 bill including brakes, a $200 charge to change coolant, and a “pollen filter”. I felt they had taken advantage of her, and wrote a letter to Honda Corp, CCing my state attourney general, better business bureau, and my lawyer. Got a full refund.
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I do not go to dealers unless it is for warranty work. I found a good local shop nearly 4 years ago. The last time I went in there the owner tried to upsell me. I will never go back.
It is difficult to change one of the light bulbs in the rear of my car, but I can do it. The lack of space for fingers is too small.
I have found Auto Zone most convenient for wipers and batteries.
I, too, am female. I learned early on that some shops try to charge me the “stupid woman price”. I send my hubby in for estimates as he gets a lower estimate if it is an unfamiliar shop. And I know more about cars than he does as my first husband was a mechanic. My first hubby and I did 4 or 5 engine rebuilds together!
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For a little guidance on potential DIY fixes such as replacing a bulb, one can find some pretty detailed instructions.
Google for: replacing brake light + honda accord
Not only brings up step-by-step instructions, but even a You Tube video on how to do it.
Even for problems that are beyond DIY realm, you can be better armed before going to the shop.
I had a Honda Prelude that, on hot days, would only start after sitting for 10 minutes.
Google: honda prelude does not start on hot days
And found out it is a common problem and knew if mechanic suggested something other than replacing the defective part, I should go else where.
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