Ask the Readers: How Do You Live Frugally Without Seeming Like a Loser?
Friday, 21st March 2008 (by J.D.)This article is about Ask the Readers, Choices, Frugality, Relationships
In Wednesday’s discussion about how to live on less and love it, Steve left an interesting comment:
One topic I never see covered is “extreme finances” or even simple frugality in relationship to being single. I’m not talking about being a cheapskate during dinner, but maintaining a low-powered lifestyle while seeking a mate. Like it or not, first impressions count and first impressions are often based on superficialities, even by nice and otherwise deep people.
Yes, there is always the rare person who will not care if you drive an old car or live in a cheap apartment, but other people don’t see old cars and cheap apartments as choices for a well thought-out philosophy, but as indicators that someone does not have his life together.
Is frugality beyond a certain point something that is for married people only?
This comment prompted Ben to respond to me via e-mail:
This is something that’s been on my mind as I try to improve my spending habits while preparing to return to an active date-hunting, mate-seeking lifestyle.
It’s not just about dating, though — if anything, that’s the easy part; just say “hey, how about the park?” instead of “Let me treat you to Chez Expensivique.” The hard part is trying to live your whole life frugally without seeming a) cheap, or b) a loser. (”No, honest, I choose to drive this reliable older car, it’s not that I can only afford to crawl along in my grandfather’s half-dead Gremlin!”) Frugal choices can make an impression that you don’t want to make.
Most discussion on this topic seems to focus on “Don’t worry about what other people think,” which is hard when you’re trying very hard to make a very good first impression on those people so they’ll want to date you. After all, it’s one case where we really are being judged by others — and should care about what those judgements are. The only other response I tend to see is “here’s some cheap date ideas” — which, like I said, is the easy part. After all, even wealthy, spendy-type folks go for walks in the park.
These gentlemen have a point: how does one live frugally without looking cheap?
During my last week at the box factory, a potential customer dropped by to make a surprise visit. When I know that I’m going to see somebody I need to impress, I try to look halfway decent. But on that day I was wearing a ten-year-old sweatshirt with fraying cuffs and a fraying collar. I had on a beat-up pair of sneakers. There was no simple way for me to explain to this man, “Yes, I know I might look like a slob, but it’s for all the right reasons.”
In dating and business and day-to-day life, people do judge us by superficial standards. How do you maintain a frugal lifestyle without giving the impression you’re cheap?
Living frugally is an extremely laudable goal, but taken to extreme limits can be just as unattractive as extreme consumerism. What they have in common is money as the central obsession. I have encountered a few whose “extreme frugality” is quite off-putting, in that it appears that all they think about is saving a buck, and have lost any spirit of generosity. Maybe this is a difference between frugal and “cheap”
Here is my comment on this as someone who spent about three years very actively on the dating scene. People should always be themselves. This is true. But as a woman in her 30’s, it was very important to me to find someone who was financially responsible AND who was financially secure. So, someone who only wanted to go to the park or who drove a wreck would’ve raised a red flag. You can be frugal and still be classy and interesting. But you will definitely have to try harder. Most importantly, women don’t want to think you’re living paycheck to paycheck and have no money in the bank. These are hard times, and we want to be with someone who isn’t going to be a financial burden on us. (This is from the point of view of a financially secure woman.)
Since frugality is important to you, I would naturally assume you are seeking this in a mate. If so, make it a topic of conversation - I choose to live this way because I am focusing on paying down debt, or saving for retirement. Those are very admirable qualities when making judgements about the opposite sex.
This is where “less is more” comes into play, I think. Owning less things, but those things being of good quality doesn’t come off as cheap or loser. The other factor is to maintain those quality things. You can have an older car that still looks nice. The care that you put into the fewer, quality things you do own will be an attractive quality to the kind of person you are probably looking to date anyway!
The idea is to buy quality things that last forever.
For exemple, buy a nice quality pair of leather shoes (that can last for 10 to 20 years) and not a weak pair of sneakers that will be destroyed in 1 year.
First, It will certainly be more expensive but in the long term, it will be cheaper.
So, think quality, think in the long term.
I believe it’s something very hard to understand for someone in the extreme frugality. A big mistake…
The point is also to be very VERY carreful with the quality things you buy if you want them to last longer.
When I first started dating the man I’m planning to marry, he was in his late 20’s, living with his parents, driving an older F-body and living, like, well, a broke college student.
He didn’t give me time to focus on the negatives, and pitched them as positives: the used car was sexy and fast, even if parts of it were falling off; his mom is a great cook and the woods behind their rural home are great for hikes, etc. Instead of getting down about those things (which was how I reacted when I was under the same circumstances) he focused on being the expert at finding exciting, unique, cheap dates.
He was also upfront with me about the fact that he was making broke student pay, and he was also upfront with me about the reasons - going back to college as an adult (women love a guy with goals and dedication).
If a girl’s having a good time with you and you’re an interesting, fun guy she’s not going to worry about how much you’re spending. Anyone can take us to a pricey dinner. Not everyone would think to suggest making a short film, range shooting or going to the local Harley-Davidson to sit on all the bikes. If you’re an expert on what places in your area have cheap food that tastes good (not gourmet, but tasty) this is also a bonus. We lived by delis and diners for the first 3 months we dated but it beat the hell out of eating at a pricey place and then getting bad food or bad service.
If you can save up every once in a while and take her out someplace a little nicer than usual, she’ll appreciate it because she’ll know it’s not a part of your routine but an effort you’re making just for her.
Confidence, creativity, a certain amount of upfront disclosure and thoughtfulness will get you everywhere. And in a guy she might get serious about, a lot of gals appreciate a certain amount of fiscal responsibility…
I drove around a hyundai wagon while in my mid to late twenties. It was embarrassing at times, but I did it because it was paid off. My girlfriend and now my wife didn’t mind because we had a similar outlook on money.
That’s my suggestion… spend money as you see fit and if the woman doesn’t agree maybe you aren’t compatible. I’ve read that they biggest reason for divorce is money disagreements.
Hmmm … I find it interesting that this seems to be far more of a worry for men than for women. Personally on the dating scene, I’ve have no trouble explaining to males that I don’t have a lot of free spending money, and that I prefer to do things the frugal way, and so far I’ve never gotten the impression that they are judging me negatively for it. On the contrary, they seem to like me all the more for it. What gives?
I think that Karl is correct when it comes to dating. If the woman is very concerned about what kind of car you are driving and feels it (and you) are not worthy then you are probably not financially in tune and that will likely cause problems down the line.
What I do to fit in at work and with friends is to set aside a certain amount of money for non-frugal choices (i.e. lunch out at work or dinner club with friends or annual girls only vacations). I use that non-frugal money (or fun money) without regret and when its gone I stop spending. I also don’t use credit cards so I only spend money that I have.
I think it also makes sense to perhaps spend a bit more to buy quality over quantity. Buy a nice suit that you can mix and match or a really good pair of shoes vs. cheap stuff that looks cheap and doesn’t last.
I totally get what they’re saying. At the same time, there is a difference between someone who drives a car that barely runs and someone who drives a vehicle that is newer (but not NEW) and in good condition. My husband had a small, humble apartment when I dated him. He drove a pickup that was 15 years old but well-cared for - as in, shiny like a new one. Had he driven the newest, fanciest car and had a high class apartment, I doubt I would have dated him because I didn’t have a lot of money myself and I would have felt uncomfortable. I dated a few guys like that, who could treat me to whatever I wanted, but it wasn’t very fun.
I remember he had a set budget every weekend, and if something came up - like a car repair - he’d just tell me he was short on cash and I’d cook rather than our going out to eat or something. We went out a lot more than we do now, but we were still frugal about it.
Like my husband says, there’s girlfriend material and wife material. You just need to date someone who is wife material.
Rent a car.
A $40 car rental four times a month (a lot of dating from this geek’s perspective) is still less than a car payment and you can show up with a different car for each date.
And no stale french fries under the driver’s seat!
-=Skip
I think the subject here isn’t “frugal lifestyle”, as you describe it: wearing beat-up clothes in a workplace is always a ‘danger’ of encountering a situation where you might have to put on a quality image. This is a situation of knowing how to be frugal (making quality purchasing choices) …versus wearing something until it falls apart …versus knowing WHEN to be out in public with those choices.
Example: I have fraying clothes also. But I’ll wear them painting a room or in the garden, not to a work environment - not even a casual work environment. However, I have a wonderful thrift store nearby which sells nearly-new and new (!) clothes for $1-10. It’s easy to have a decent casual-work wardrobe for $15 — for a whole WEEK. (I can buy a suit there also).
There’s ‘frugal’ and then there’s ‘anal-retentive’
I think people should understand the greys 
In dating, the whole picture is what to consider. Yes, there are guys with fancy cars who are complete jerks, ….and also wonderful, caring men who have an 8-year old car who want to picnic for a date. It’s the whole-picture which makes the difference, not the money.
However, if a man wants to date who won’t make any effort at all (with imagination, money, OR effort), that’s another issue altogether.
In the beginning, spend a little more, only if you can, but not a lot.
Do not veer into cheap. I once had a date ask me to pour my free ladies night drink into his purchased beer can to save money. Yuck!
DO on the second date or so explain why you are frugal. What are your financial goals? Travel? Owning your own business? Early Retirment? etc. Are you conscious of overconsumerism because of the environment?
If it’s meant to be, your reasons will impress your date and she’ll want to stick around.
A guy asked me out on a date but I didn’t want to go because he’s so sloppy. In his frugality, he’s gotten used to wearing ten-year-old discolored clothes, et cetera.
I’m all for frugality, that’s why I’m subscribed to this blog. But there’s also a certain quality of life that I don’t want to fall below.
I have to agree with Tana. When I met MrHolly he drove an older (but still safe and well-maintained) Honda Civic. He didn’t wear fancy clothes, he wore classic clothes that were clean and well-pressed. He didn’t take me a lot of expensive places.
Because he took care of what he had, and it was clear from looking around his apartment that he was willing and able to splurge on the occasional item that was important to him, I was smart enough to realize that he was in fact managing his finances. That was much more important to me than a guy who bought me flowers and took me to Chez Expensive every weekend.
This is an interesting topic. When I was on the dating “scene”, I really hated that Dinner and a Movie or Dancing were standard. You don’t have to be cheap to be frugal.
Going hiking, a surprise romantic picnic, and taking a walk on wooded trails are all fantastic dates. For indoor days, you can play board games, cook a gourmet dinner together, or just watch DVDs on the sofa.
There is no trick to dating. Women LOVE when they feel you’ve put effort into planning a special time for them. Most of us prefer the thought to the expense every time.
In my opinion, I’ve found it helps to explain what you’re saving for. Being frugal is well enough, but it can become special, and even endearing if its for the right reasons. Be honest when telling someone, but choose wisely. Saying you’re saving for a 4 week stint in Europe over the summer is different than saying you’re saving for retirement to a 20-something woman!
Who cares if you seem like a loser? That’s about other people, not you.
I’m going to presume that you are dating because you want find the woman you want to marry, rather than just go out and have a bit of fun with random girls (its important because you baisically have to be a spendthrift to impress the random girls). Anyway, similar to Tana said, no matter how old your car is, keep it clean. More important than how expensive your car and clothes are, is how they are kept. Be clean, neat and well groomed. See if you can find some solid classic pieces (Brooks Brothers, J. Crew, etc.) that are used but in good condition. (Try to figuring out where the nicest areas are around you and then go to the thrift and consignment shops right next them). Now, your real problem seems to be where to meet these girls who will respect your lifestyle and want to date you without throwing you into bankruptcy. I would suggest finding some cheap dance lessons. Where I used to live for $5 on a Friday nigh you could go to the local college and get an hour of swing dancing lessons and then several hours of danincing. My friends and I used to go to these all the time because it was cheap for us and we liked the idea of meeting guys who could dance. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly for you) there were never enough guys to go around at these things, but the ones who were there tended to be very nice and were out dancing rather than boozing it up, which certainly was a point in their favor from us. Another way to meet eligible young ladies is through your friends — I met my husband at a party thrown by a mutual friend. I don’t mean blind dates but group bbq’s or picnics at the park can be a great way to meet other people who want to have fun and meet people without breaking the bank. If things start to get serious with a girl then you can talk to her about your own financial philosophy and what you are trying to accomplish — you may be pleasantly surprised to find that she will respect what you are doing, and possibly even be excited about it. When it comes to women who want to get married they want someone who will provide stability and security. Your frugality will show her that you understand that and are willing to work for it. Good luck!
Contrast two men I dated in the early 2000s:
- One shared a rental house with a friend while he worked a menial job and tried to get an entrepreneurial venture off the ground. He dressed simply but was always neat and his appearance was well-maintained. His house was clearly a bachelor pad, but it was clean and welcoming. He had learned to cook a few simple, excellent meals and our dinner dates were usually at his house. He knew a lot of free (or very inexpensive) things to do in his community and took obvious enjoyment in them, so they never felt like second-class dates. When he had a little extra money, he saved it or put it into his business.
- Another had a professional degree but was working temp jobs. He lived in a condo that his rich parents purchased for him; it was in a gorgeous building in a prestigious area… and he had covered the walls with newspaper clippings and posters, his furniture was stained and broken, and his kitchen was covered in years of grime. His hair was overgrown and his clothing was frequently stretched out or dirty. His idea of a good date would be to split one beer at a nearby bar and then eat serving after serving from their happy hour buffet. When he had a little extra money, he bought more of the model airplanes that filled every surface in his home.
Both men were handsome, intelligent, and living on very little money, but the way they handled it was a world apart.
As a single female, I dressed neatly and tried to choose classic rather than trendy styles, but I never looked high-maintenance, so I didn’t attract the sort of men who expect their date to have fresh pedicures and designer clothes. Good! We wouldn’t have compatible ethics. I wouldn’t mention my coupon-clipping, but I was upfront about the fact that I was actively paying off my home and managing my investments. That intimidated some guys and impressed others; and I don’t have much patience for those in the first group anyway.
(And yes, I’m the Ben from the original post)
Tana’s post seems to be the usual kind of comment I see on this topic - in that it refers to an ongoing, long-term relationship. It’s not that it’s untrue, or incorrect - but a lot of the difficulty here relates to the earlier part of the dating game, when you’re *not* proceeding in a relationship, but trying to find people, go on dates, etc - ie, make a first, or maybe second, impression.
“Who cares if you seem like a loser? That’s about other people, not you.”
That’s the point! By definition, dating requires that other people judge you. Specifically, that person you’re trying to date. So the answer is: That cute girl over there cares, and by extension, so do I.
In response to Rika:
There are still traditional roles that are associated with men and women even though they are more muted in today’s society.
Men are seen as a provider and thus looking like you aren’t willing to provide looks bad. Women the care giver. You don’t need money to take care of someone and showing that you can do a lot with less is an attractive quality in a mate. Due to being PC most people don’t talk about the perceptions of male and female roles but I think they are still there in most peoples minds.
1. If you’re going to be cheap you need to be creative and entertaining. You’ll need to put effort into planning fun activities. Otherwise, she’ll be afraid that if the relationship goes anywhere, you’ll be stuck at home on Saturday nights, rolling coins.
2. I agree with the people who said that frugal is different than cheap and lazy. I do not mind an old, well-maintained car, but I do mind guys that still wear their sweatpants from college. It’s okay to save money by spending extra time and effort to keep old things lovely. It’s not okay to have stuff that’s dirty or ratty, and to justify it by saying it’s some sort of economic policy. I mean – learn to sew and fix those clothes if you want to hang on to them – that’s free.
3. When I lived in an expensive city and was trying to keep to a budget, one of my tricks was to either only eat out or only drink out. If the main entertainment was drinking, I’d eat at home and not order food when everyone else did. If the main focus was the dinner, I’d pack a flask and order diet cokes with my food.
It sounds goofy, but it’s really expensive to eat AND drink out.
I am very turned off by flashy men. Expensive new cars, furniture, and clothes make me suspicious, especially if I know what that guy’s job is and that it wouldn’t afford such a luxurious lifestyle. I assume this guy has bought these things on credit, and that he is not financially secure. The first thing I think is that he is probably irresponsible with money, and that does NOT impress me.
When considering potential dates, the bare financial minimum for me is that the guy can take care of himself. If we live in a town where public transportation is not reliable, the guy has to have SOME sort of car so he can get around without depending on me for rides. He has to be able to self-sufficient enough that he has his own place to live and pays his bills without a problem.
Expensive clothes don’t matter. As long as they are clean and well taken care of.
I am old fashioned in that I don’t like to go dutch on dates, but I don’t care if the dates are inexpensive (a movie on a Saturday afternoon, picnic in the park, etc.). I’d rather go to a free gallery night or a free concert on the town green than have to pay 1/2 for dinner out. I understand if you’re saving money– just don’t ask me to more expensive places than that you’re willing to pay for. (And if you have a coupon for a cheaper admission or buy one get one free for dinner, please have the tact to not present it in front of me. It makes me feel like you’re only with me that night because it’s such a bargain!!)
All that to say, you don’t have to spend money to impress every girl, just the shallow ones. And I’m not a “hippie girl,” either. I am one of the “cute girls over there” and surprise! I don’t care that you have a late model car or designer brand clothes.
1. Pay cash. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing or buying. If you pay cash for it, you’ll feel richer and you know you can afford it.
2. Buy substance over style. Second date? Say you’re a great cook, and back it up with some good cooking. In fact, cook better food for yourself than you’d ever buy.
3. Buy quality. Maintain quality. Those expensive sweaters come with extra buttons and some thread for a reason. Use them. It’s cheaper than replacing them.
Lives are built, slowly. Too much too soon has never been a good prescription for what ails you.
I agree with the previous posters. As long as you’re clean-cut and take care of yourself, women will give you the benefit of the doubt (at least worth-while ones will) and hang around to get a feel for your real situation.
My husband is a frugal guy and that was part of what attracted me to him. I didn’t want a guy who knew how to blow every dollar he made on “stuff”.
It probably helps, though, that my husband is more frugal with himself than with me. He has no problem with me going out for an occasional pedicure, but he knows that since I’m frugal, I won’t take advantage of his generosity and get a pedicure every week (or month for that matter).
I guess my point is, don’t worry about it too much. If he/she doesn’t stick around, they weren’t the right one for you.
Cleanliness is a big factor, I think. Yeah you might not be driving the nicest car, but if it is well maintained and very clean, you get an A+ in my book for not being a slob.
Same thing with clothes. Even if you don’t wear the nicest clothes, if you are clean and well kept it goes a huge way to making a good impression with me.
About the workplace: whatever clothes you need to look good are just job expenses. You shouldn’t dress down. You can wear your good clothes more often & mix and match.
About dating:
LET’S FACE IT–the vast majority of people don’t get the kind of frugality that readers here subscribe to. What good is it to attract people who aren’t going to buy into one of your deep values?
Statistically, you’re only going to “make it” with 1-2% of the possible single people out there. There’s no real benefit in attracting the people that are you are SURE not to stick with
As a single woman, I feel the OPs pain. Personally, I just maintain a groomed, clean appearance for myself and my things. I buy quality/classic clothing with a few trendy (but inexpensive) pieces to keep me up-to-date. I pay someone to perfectly arch my eyebrows but clip and file my nails myself. Oh, and I smile a lot. All this tends to present an image that I’m comfortable, happy, and approachable. Not rolling in the dough, but not struggling either.
This tends to work for me in the dating world as I try to maintain my budget and my sexy. ;-D
For dates, I tend let the first date be just a meet-up. That’s mainly a function of getting a lot of dates online. The first time I meet someone, it’s pretty short because you’re just meeting them for the first time. So it’s just usually a coffee or something while we hang out. If things work out and we want to spend more time together, we can grab something to eat at the local sandwich joint or something. It’s low-pressure for both of us, emotionally and financially.
So bottom-line, to not convey the “loser” vibe is for me to present myself in classic clothes that flatter, keep my things in clean and running order, and be happy and confident in what I have to offer to a potentional companion.
Hope that helps.
@emily: I live in a big city and almost all my friends carry flasks! I don’t because I don’t go out that much, but they do and that’s how they are able to keep costs reasonable when they go out.
Don’t worry guys. When you save enough, the girls will notice. My fiancee said she liked that our first date was different than any one she has ever had (we played Scrabble and ate free food) and I made it clear my frugality was a mission to accomplish something bigger (large amount of savings.) If you make it known that you are saving, and for what reasons, you’ll earn respect, not ridicule.
It’s hard to fathom, but do know it’s possible.
@Momma - read her post, twice! I also agree that good grooming and well-cared-for possessions make a huge impression. For example, an older model car that is clean inside and out tells me a lot about a person’s character, and perhaps even how they “take care of” a relationship!
I am a single woman in my 30’s. I am very frugal (although I spend money on things I really want or care about). I’ve done well financially. But I have to admit I would be wary of dating someone really frugal….I would need to really look at what kind of frugality is it. Is he frugal or cheap? Is he frugal all the time or are there things he would spend money on. I’m a pretty cheap date, but I don’t live “cheaply” like my grandfather did who saved the best for himself, but was cheap with his family. I would love to marry someone who is responisble with money, has something to show for that responsibility, but isn’t going to get in my way the times I do want to spend money. My motto is be frugal with what you don’t care about so you can spend on what you do care about.
So what you are essentially asking is how to trick a woman into being your mate. Nice. What are you, John Cusack?
Why don’t you get your nerdy-hot-but-considered-unattractive-by-the-jocks- because-she-wears-glasses friend to coach you on how to trick the stereotypical vacuous blond chick into sleeping with you, but you’ll find out right at the end that you can’t go through with it because you really love the nerdy girl after all and she loves you?
Life isn’t a romantic comedy. There’s no secret to attracting women, other than to show genuine interest in them, pay genuine attention to them, and don’t dress like a slob. You’re not trying to purchase a piece of property, your trying to find someone who is going to be your best friend for the next 60 or so years.
And I guarantee you that no matter how hot you think she is, she has her flaws that she is trying to hide from you as well.
The solution: Be a tough on yourself, and generous with others.
My advise with frugality would be to not to impose it on the another person. I had dinner ordered for me by my cousin because she thought I should eat just that and everything else on the menu is too expensive. I was shocked and felt that it was too cheap. She should have just told me she was on a budget and allowed me to make a decision!
One thing I’ve heard about how to know if a guy is not into you: he talks about numbers a lot. If he is worrying a lady’s pretty little head with how much his car payment is, that rent is coming due, and any other numeric amounts (not ideals, goals, and abstract values), he is not looking to marry you.
If a man wants to marry you, then he’ll manage his money, and may say things like, I’m making sure to save enough to capture the company match for my 401k, or things like, I feel that there are very few things that require a brand name for me to buy them when the generic is just as good… that is different. If he is talking about trying to live on $10 a day until he gets his next paycheck, or talking about his $123 phone bill, and actually saying numbers, bad sign. You are not a potential life-mate. Abandon ship.
So guys, if you are saying numbers to women, stop. Not because women can’t handle it, not because women aren’t financially geniuses, some definitely are, but really, discussions in the early stages of a relationship should be about goals and values, not dollar signs and phone bills.
And girls, cheap dates are fun. Don’t order the most expensive thing on the menu, even if you are worth it. It will be a lot more fun when he can order it for you when you have been able to build the dream life you wanted together because you’ve worked towards and met your goals and have achieved financial security.
Men want love and comfort from their wives. Wives want support and security from their husbands. Seek mates accordingly.
PS - If you want to look great at any price point, check out “What Not to Wear” on TLC, they have great tips on how to clean out your wardrobe and not look like a slob. They focus on classic pieces that will last and be staples in your wardrobe. Highly recommended. (Nominate yourself online for a $5000 shopping spree.)
I’m pursuing a frugal lifestyle so I want someone who is doing the same. I once dated a guy who drove a late model SUV, dressed to impress, and wined and dined me at fancy places, etc. His philosophy was spend it now ’cause he may not be around to spend it later. He remains a friend but I would never go back into that relationship…our philosophies are too different.
I’m dating someone now who drive’s an older car, dresses impeccably, though not in the latest trends, and is always looking for a bargain. That’s more up my alley. Our philosophies are about the same… actually, he’s more frugal minded than I am. His focus is quality over quantity and I like that. He has less ’stuff’ but will pay more up front so it will last and in the end he’ll end up paying less.
I want to ‘live life’ with my family. When you’re buying all the latest doo-dads, you either have to work many hours to pay for it (hence, not enough time enjoy your family and the things you enjoy outside of work), or you’re deep in debt, ducking the bill collector and nursing an ulcer ’cause you’re spending what you don’t have to keep up with the Jonses.
I think if you’re at the point of dating to find someone to settle down with, compatibility in life philosophy is what matters. The number of women I see as posters here is a testament that there are many of us out there that are interested in a frugal lifestyle.
@ Ben, I agree that first impressions counts and if you’re trying to get a date you want to impress that cute girl across the room. Second, third, etc impressions also counts. The guy who gets the girl because of his fancy wardrobe, car, expensive dates, etc. will not hold her for long if their personalities and philosophies don’t match.
There was a point in my life where I wore wrinkled t-shirts, jeans, sweat shirts, etc. all the time. My work wardrobe was a slight step above that (I couldn’t wear jeans to work). I had an ‘aha’ moment when I realized that the guys I was attracting was not the kind I wanted to date. My first impression was not representing me very well
I had to make a change.
Is your first impression saying what you want it to say about you?…and I think this goes beyond whether you are frugal, cheap, spend - thrift, etc.
Wow, there have been some incredible responses! Price vs. cost is something to consider when being frugal. Yes, do pay more for something of higher quality because it can last longer. Maintain it and yourself and your appearance will always look sharp.
Biggest thing for attracting people? Confidence. If you believe in yourself and have that confidence shine, you will be noticed and meet more ladies. You can wear inexpensive clothing (well kept), drive an older lower-end car (well maintained) and be confident about them and yourself. Women will notice this and you can get those first dates and meetings from it.
Eye contact, good posture, smiling,and mimicking their movements are things that will cause the ladies to notice you. Be confident, kind and respectful. Then get that first date. Show them how fantastic you are, and for that next date offer a nice romantic dinner at home that you will cook.
Good luck Ben! I wish you the best success in finding that special someone who understands and appreciates you.
A lot of the women here have made the point that it’s not necessarily how much you have, but what you do with what you have. I’m also actively dating — and, ok, not getting very far — and I’ve noticed that a lot of men who have little, give even less. (I’m making the point about men because that’s who I date. Women are probably just as bad.)
Now, this is in large part my issue; I’m stubbornly independent and low-maintenance and find myself men who think that means no-maintenance. But it’s something I’ve seen a number of times: people who can’t make big gestures dismiss the small ones, even when they’re told it’s good.
The little stuff matters. Never underestimate the little stuff. An old car that’s clean and neat is better to a lot of women than a new car that’s messy and unwelcoming. A well-chosen, inexpensive gift ($5 worth of nice cheese to share? $2 Dalek cookie cutter?) is worth a lot more than an expensive flower arrangement that makes her sneeze. Calling in the morning because she’s said she’d love that? Not any harder than calling in the evening. And you’d be surprised how many men dismiss simple courtesy.
Some people really want big gestures. But if you’re trying to be frugal and looking for someone who is at least sympathetic to that, then you might want to be weeding those out anyway.
And while the first-impressions bit is true, there’s not a whole lot someone can really tell from the first few dates if you keep them low-key. The car is the only one I can really think of. Interesting restaurants can be cheap. Museums, ditto. Conversations about goals are free and can clue her in. Nice, well-made clothes are a worthwhile investment for the frugal. Keeping your fingernails trimmed and clean should not be a big deal for a normal adult. By the time you’re taking her back to your apartment to show off your etchings, she’s probably already decided whether you’re flakey-poor or frugal, and whether she likes that.
always make sure that you wear very nice shoes. it’s easy.
First, thanks to J.D. for creating/maintaining this site and for everyone who writes and/or comments on it. I have been lurking around here of late and all the information, whether it pertains directly to me or not, inspires me daily to be frugal.
As for looking frugal vs. looking like a cheapskate when dating, yes, clean, well-cared for clothing makes a difference. (This applies to making a good impression at your job too.) No, it does not have to be the expensive and/or the latest trend. Classic pieces that are well made can be purchased for less if you watch for sales, etc. as mentioned by others here. I am all for hole-filled jeans on a Saturday or casual dates, but if a guy is in that for every date, it makes me worry that he does not take the time to care for himself.
Lastly, I offer up my father’s old dating trick. You can only do this if you happen to have a good friend around the same size. My dad used to have 3 suits. His buddy had 3 suits. Together, if they shared clothing (which they did), they could have six suits to alternate. My mom, though wondering why a few of my father’s pants were a wee bit shorter, thought she had found one snazzy dresser! Needless to say if I’m calling them mom and dad, they ended up together—but part of that is due to the fact that after she found out about his trick– she saw it as being saavy and not “cheapskate-like”. Granted, we do not live in the 50s anymore and clothing is much more casual– but it’s an idea that could possibly be used in a different context.
Talk about it with her!
If you are living a frugal lifestyle, it’s because it’s because saving and or investing is one of your core values. If you’re dating to find a “mate” it should be one that you can communicate with; one who hopefully shares your values.
If I were sitting across the table from a man who started talking about his portfolio and retirement goals and how he bought his used car with cash, I would swoon! Because I would have found someone who I have something very important in common with.
Just my 25 year old, female 2 cents….
There’s ‘frugal’ and then there’s ‘anal-retentive’ I think people should understand the greys
Amen! Sorry, Dave, wearing a frayed sweatshirt isn’t a sign you’re frugal- it’s a sign you’re too lazy to buy cheap clothes that look nice, which CAN be done. And sorry, Ben, but I don’t believe most women will judge you if you drive an old car- but they will judge you if the car you have looks uncared for. There’s a difference, and it doesn’t have to do with how much you spend, so I don’t like to hear people cry, wah wah, nobody likes me in my dirty car and schlumpy clothes because I’m *frugal*.
J.D., if you’d met the potential customer when you weren’t on the clock, your point would be valid. As it is… I don’t think so. I can’t think of any job where clothes that are falling apart are appropriate.
My first inclination was to say “You are not a loser, you are smarter than others.” But then I realized that isn’t the point. I’m a 34 year old married person and I know by being frugal I’m going to have an easier and more fulfilling life. But when you are younger and single it isn’t that easy.
Everyone wants to go on nice dates. But my advice to you is to be yourself. Without a doubt the man should pay on the first date (or even first couple of dates). It is a matter of respect. In that case the male shouldn’t go to Chez Expensive, but rather a nicer, less expensive place - maybe choose a unique Mexican restaurant in the Bohemian part of town instead of a bland chain restaurant. Or even a nice chain place like Olive Garden isn’t bad. On the other hand the female shouldn’t expect Chez Expensive either. When I was dating my future husband in college I knew he had a job and money wasn’t easy come to him - so I didn’t expect the world - I accepted him for who he was.
As for cars I respected those who had older, well cared for cars. I was the same way and I knew why they were doing it. I’m the same way today and I respect it in other people who I know are driving older, nice cars in order to get ahead, too. In fact we just had to choose and accountant and I actually choose the person with the 5 year old well-maintaned Accord over the guy with the 5 series (likely leased) BMW. I just felt my lifestyle was more in common with the well-maintained Accord. And I just couldn’t help but think that the guy in the BMW had to come up with that money from somewhere - probably his clients.
So again be yourself. IT will be reflected in your dates. You’ll end up with a mate in life who shares the same goals as you. Don’t think of yourself as being cheap, think of yourself as having a quality relationship.
Eh. Everyone seems to be attacking this as if they have THE answer. Some woman like men with money, some don’t care. Some woman who like men with money are honest and sweet and kind and loving. Some woman who don’t care about money are not sweet and kind, etc. You have to make a choice about how you want to live your life, and then understand that that will necessarily limit who you can date. Period. You won’t be attractive to everyone, whether you’re rich, poor, skinny, buff, brainy or dumb as a stump. Some people will dump you because of your bank account, and some will marry you because of your biceps. Some people are ATTRACTED to men who lie to them. I have a friend who was attracted to her husband because he looks like a big Teddy Bear. I don’t see it, but whatever.
First impressions are hugely important. Don’t wear clothes that are not your size, pay attention to fit: the shoulder of the garment should line up with your shoulder, crotch should be close to your crotch, not slouchy, baggy and messy-looking. If you wear clothes that fit, you will automatically look more presentable. If you are a medium, and wearing an XL t-shirt, you don’t look like you care about what people think of you - and maybe you don’t - but your future wife or husband might!
IMHO, Women love flowers more than expensive dinners, and a single pink rose is just as nice as a dozen, especially in those first few dates when it is super sweet and thoughtful. There are probably some decent vases at your local dollar store that will hold a single rose quite nicely - and why wouldn’t you want to deliver it yourself to see her face light up and that big smile! Delivering it to work, too, is a major way to win points. Ladies love to have flowers on their desks, they get asked over and over who sent flowers, and they’d be saying your name over and over again until that thing dies!
If the purpose of dating is to find and select a long-term mate, I think that seeking out someone who shares your frugality would be wise.
How many relationships have been destroyed by incompatible views about money? How many couples have sunk into financial crisis because of an unwillingness to address these differing values?
But while you’re still looking, I think the best way to pitch your frugality to a potential mate is by casting it as resourcefulness.
A friend of mine has an absolutely encyclopedic knowledge of all the free happenings here in Chicago, and I am consistently impressed by her ability to find and seize these opportunities.
Knowing where to find the gallery openings, concerts in the park, restaurant openings, etc. demonstrates a creativity, spontanaiety, and resourcefulness that I think would make a favorable impression on just about anyone.
Reading through all these posts, I think Ben may leave this blog somewhat frustrated. He most certainly already knows cleanliness is a virtue, especially in dating. That’s not rocket science. But his original dilemma and struggles have really not been solved. Having been single not to long ago myself, I sympathize with the issue of being judged. We all make snap judgements about people early on in dating - even the quality girls worth keeping do! I think his struggle with frugality looking cheap to a girl is valid and not an easy thing to fix, despite what everyone here has said.
I liked the suggestion of someone to do an initial low-key (and cheap!) get together (coffee is best) to determine if there might be sparks. Don’t blow much money on a completely unknown quantity or a blind date. If you still are interested and see potential (and think this might be reciprocated), then take her out to dinner. Personally I think it’s too intimidating that early in the dating process to cook for someone and have them at your place. The reality is, you will have to spend money early on, more than your frugal side might like! But if you don’t, you run the risk of seeming cheap. I’m not saying take her to the most expensive restaurant in town - middle range is good. Perhaps somewhere that just opened or had a good review in a culinary magazine (or Zagat). This shows you are thinking and have good taste.
Perhaps another frugal way to spend time with someone early on that won’t be construed as cheap is to invite her to be your date to a party a friend is having. If you have good friends, you can even force them to have a party mainly for this purpose (I’ve done it!).
I don’t see easy answers to Ben’s dilemma. Dating tends to be expensive. There are ways to mitigate it, but like you say, you have to be careful what message you might be sending. Certain people were rescued from the trials and tribulations of casual dating by meeting the right person elsewhere, but others have to struggle through it and make difficult (and financially challenging) choices. I wish you luck!
I met the woman who is now my wife during the dot-com boom… I had gotten lucky with a few startups, and was still young and stupid enough to be spending frivolously. (I look back with horror at some of my financial stupidity.)
She was actually put off by the fancy clothes/car/penthouse and wouldn’t go out with me. It wasn’t until after enough time had passed that she had gotten to know me that she agreed to go out on a “date.” By first impressions alone, only the shallow women you don’t WANT to go out with were attracted to the flashy bits.
My point here is that either end of the spectrum can be a turn-off. While it’s tough to find a date when you’re driving a ‘74 Ford Pinto and wearing sweatpants with holes in them… it can also be tough to find a smart woman who isn’t shallow when you’re in a flashy car and decked out in Armani.
The goal should be to land somewhere in the middle– I like the comments about the older but well maintained car, not the latest clothes, but always clean and pressed, etc. This seems like the sweet spot to me.
I am in the same situation, Mid 20’s, dating, frugal. A few thoughts on my experiences:
1) I can’t date women and expect it to be free. I’ve come up with many fun inexpensive dates; the key has been to maintain this frame of mind. When I expect that I’m not going to be able to spend no money, I’m not upset when I do. This allows me to set up a budget for dating. By setting aside funds beforehand, I don’t feel like I’m losing money when I go out with women. These are planned expenses just like any other in my budget.
2) I don’t apologize for being frugal. I don’t apologize for my date ideas possibly being considered cheap. Get those ideas out of your head. In fact, I don’t mention anything of the sort. When I make plans I simply say something along the lines of, “we should do this, it’s a ton of fun and they have really cool stuff to see”. This is 180deg from an apologetic, non-confident person who would say something like, “I guess we can go to the park then the free museum, it’s not expensive but…”. By keeping the frame of mind that the way I spend money is normal, not unusual, I convey confidence and attractiveness and draw no attention to the fact that what I do is different than others. If I secretly believe that what I’m doing is “cheap”, she will pick up on it as women pick up on subtle communication, body language, and tone of voice. The key for me has been to convince myself that what I’m doing with money is right and that allows me to be confident and for that confidence to radiate in every aspect.
3) Let your personality and confidence make the first impression. When I meet women they have no idea what kind of car I drive. They don’t know where I live. They are going to make a decision to go out with me again based on how I present myself. Now if things get more involved and on later meeting she comes over to my place or sees my car, she’s probably not going to just get up and leave if she sees they’re not high-class. She’s spent time getting to know me, she likes me, and she’s much more willing to overlook social negatives like having an older car or a lower-rent apartment.
4) When it comes to physical appearance; clothing, haircut, grooming, etc, these are areas that must be handled properly to not put up red flags. It’s well known that first impressions are made within seconds, so extra thought must go into what image you are projecting. It doesn’t matter if you have a $100 haircut of if you buzzed it yourself; just make sure it is clean and well groomed. It doesn’t cost anything but time to ensure your face and neck is well groomed. Spend the time to make it look like you care about yourself. Clothing should be clean, fit you well and make you look good. I don’t spend much money on clothing by often shopping used and I stretch my outfits by buying inexpensive accessories like hats, jewelry, coats/over-shirts, etc. You don’t need to spend a lot to look good.
5) Something I was just thinking about while writing this. If you are concerned about appearing cheap, find out if you actually are cheap. Dealing with being considered cheap has been a recent struggle for me. I used to hate it when we’d leave a tip at a restaurant and I had to pony up an additional dollar or two because my friends skimped on the tip. My friends would then look at me like, how can you be so cheap that you aren’t going to throw in another dollar or two? When I added up how much this and other little things like this would cost me I was amazed. I figured it couldn’t cost me more than $10 or $15 a month to handle these uncomfortable social situations. I realized that for less than $200 a year I would never have to feel cheap in a situation like this again. This was a no brainier for me and now I often overpay by a few dollars on shared meals and my friends now think I’m generous rather than cheap.
Wow, this is WAAAY longer that I expected it to be and I still have so much more to say. Hope this helps.
I always looked at cheap as just that. In other words of less quality. I look as frugal as smart, as in why spend more then you have to,while not compromising quality? I’m justa saying!
Does anyone else have “Can’t Buy Me Love” in their head after reading this?
Time is the one thing we all have everyday, and we each get the same amount to spend. How you spend your time may be telling your date more than how you spend your money.
Something I heard about that may be looking into was this time dollars program. If you volunteer at charitable events (even as an usher), you could eventually turn that time into, for example, tickets to the opera or another community event. Not only would the volunteering score major points on the humanitarian scale with some women, the free tickets to really upscale events would be prize date options. Check it out in your community, it is worth a shot. You might even meet a very nice potential date who is also volunteering.
This is more of a problem for men because men are judged more on what they do, women, more on how they are. Not that it’s 100% either way, but that’s the general way of it.
I agree with the previous commenter who said to focus on quality, since that’s one of the thriftiest things there is without seeming cheap, and with those who said, more or less, to stay in motion and focused. If you’re living in a grungy, dilapidated house, it’ll still be hugely impressive if you bought it free and clear at sheriff’s sale and are fixing it up yourself.
Or, as Emerson said, “Men imagine that they communicate their virtue or vice only by overt actions, and do not see that virtue or vice emit a breath every moment.”
“Frugality” and “Cheapness” are not equivalent terms or qualities. Many people often use these terms to mean the same qualities, incorrectly. I am frugal, not cheap. Here’s why:
Frugality is akin to thriftiness. Frugality is the practice of acquiring goods and services at minimum cost, achieved via economical restraints or creative measures. Frugality can be related to the idea of being conservative or conserving money. (Wikipedia)
Cheap traditionally referred to more miserly qualities. A person who is reluctant to spend money, usually to the point of forgoing even basic comforts. The term derives from the Latin miser, meaning “poor” or “wretched.” (Wikipedia)
I wrote on this very topic last week. Then the following day I had a discussion with my co-worker (who doesn’t know I blog) about it. It’s not easy, and I haven’t found the solution, though there are some good tips here!
What I think it comes down to is confidence and allocation of money. Maybe you spend a great deal of money going out to lunch with co-workers, if you were to cut back on that you could spend a bit more on dating… And answer the question, do YOU feel like you’re being “cheap” or do you feel like your date thinks your being cheap. If you feel like your date thinks you are cheap then maybe you’re dating the wrong type of person?
-Daniel @ young and frugal
Baddriver’s comment is great, and tip #5 is genius. So true. So, so, so true.
Skimping on the tip is an absolute dealbreaker for me. If you have to, ‘fess up to being bad at math and ask your date.
I try to keep the balance in my frugality by spending money for work clothes and not spending money on my non work clothes. In advertising you need to look good. You don’t have to have the trendiest clothes and you don’t need to wear suits but you can’t look like you walked in off the street. So, I choose to spend my money there and the clothes I wear at home and on the weekends are old and not great, but I’m ok with that. As for the relationship part, I have no advice. My fiance spends whatever she wants and there’s no stopping her.
This put a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean in my head. At the end of the first one, when Elizabeth goes off with Musketeer Will, Norrington accepts the situation with a line like, “The sword you made me is excellent. I expect the man who made such a sword to exercise such care in every matter in his life.”
You need to show not that you will spend, but that you will care.
I am coming at this from a bit of a different angle, but I was married for about 30 years before becoming widowed at 50. The whole dating thing was new to me, but I lived a frugal lifestyle and wanted someone who was the same. Not a tightwad/cheapskate, but not a spend thrift.
I found myself with men who thought they had to spend the world to impress me, even though it was obvious this was not their ability or lifestyle and then there were the downright miserly men and it was obvious why they were still single. One date asked me for dinner after church. I was talking to someone and he said he would meet me at the restaurant. I thought it strange, but ok. When I got there he had already gone in, was in line for the buffet and I had to find him. Well, the reason he had to get there was because the prices went from breakfast low to dinner high at 11:30, but if you paid by 11:30 you got dinner for the breakfast price! Needless to say I did not go out with him again!
However, I have remarried and my current husband was upfront about his spending and being frugal from the start. We were on the same plane and I liked it and his honesty. He made a great impression (obviously since we are now married!)
As a woman, pick a nice place, walk in the park, picnic etc. If she is what you are looking for she will like it.
Even though they guys said they didn’t want cheap date ideas reading some of the comments, its seems that others do. Here is my perspective on dating frugally and some of my recent dates.
My first rule, I don’t pay for her. I’ll stop a minute for you to take that in. I can already hear some of you shouting, you cheap bastard. Again, this comes back to frame of mind and the context of the situation. I don’t ‘take’ girls out to dinner. To me that is a throwaway date, soooo clichéd. She’s probably thinking, if I end up liking him great, if not at least I get a nice dinner out of it. If we happen to eat together it’s just that, we eat ‘together’ and we split the check. Often if it’s inexpensive she’ll pay for me. By setting the context as “Let’s check out this local place, I hear they have amazing deserts.” We are two people going to eat together, not me ‘taking’ her out.
Some of you may think this doesn’t work but it does. Again, it’s all about context and frame of mind.
Some recent dates:
-Have a slice at one of the highest rated pizza places in the city. I have a list and my goal is to eat a slice at each place by the end of 2008.
-Check out the local skateboarding hotspot. There’s a playground/park near me that has a bunch of really good skateboarders who meet up when the weather’s good. Sitting on a park bench watching them is a great mental distraction and takes the pressure off of having to constantly come up with things to talk about.
-Explore Chinatown or other immigrant neighborhood. There are so many interesting foreign things to discover and the food is usually very inexpensive.
-Walk in the park. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but when the weather is nice, this is one of my favorite things to do.
-Shopping at the thrift store. Brings me back to elementary school playing dress up in fun, sometimes ridiculous outfits.
-Bringing her along to a social gathering or party I was already going to with my friends.
I’d love to hear other’s dates that they know work, but that might be the topic for another thread entirely. Thanks JD for having this discussion.
I think it’s sexy when men are frugal BUT also generous and creative. Examples: a guy is frugal in his daily life but gives a ton to charity because that’s what matters more; a guy is frugal with daily stuff but puts money toward something that really matters, like traveling overseas every year; a guy who is so creative with his dates (museums, cooking me dinner, great hole-in-the-wall neighborhood restaurants, the beach, outdoors stuff, etc.) that I don’t even notice he’s not spending tons of money taking me to cheesy, expensive dinners.
Are you interested in attracting a woman who is frugal (or is willing to be frugal when “the time is right” (marriage or whatever)? I consider this a high priority — when seeking out a mate I do have certain qualities that I select on, including future potential to be skilled in personal finances (or at least willing to do what *I* say! hehe). What I guess I’m suggesting is that this guy will attract what he advertises for. If he doesn’t advertise his frugality, he won’t be assured of getting someone who is ok with that. Who’s to say that a woman who expects a guy to have a nice new car will change when marriage happens and suddenly want to save and be frugal? If this doesn’t matter to him, maybe he is right, that he should get the car to get the chick if he really thinks it will increase his chances. But, personally, I don’t consider that a valid quality in a woman.
What it comes down to is you need to find someone who doesnt think you are cheap or more like that being cheap is not a bad thing. I dunno how hard that is. But basically think about this, do you want to date someone who is thinking that your lifestyle is loserish. Find a mate who thinks that your lifestyle is wise, economical, and beneficial. Yeah, you wont likely find these people at the meat market or at church or any of the popular places to meet people because frugality is not popular.
think about it — can you see yourself getting into a long term live-in relationship with someone who is going to want/expect you to break your frugal lifestyle in order to maintain a certain standard of living or keeping up with the joneses? do you think that will work out well?
be up front about your lifestyle and try to find people who share it or see the wisdom of it. Otherwise you are asking for big trouble.
A man with a goal - i.e. spending wisely, paying off debt, saving for the future - is a very attractive thing. You may think that women only look at things like clothing, cars, house, etc., but that’s such a lie! As previously posted, only shallow women care about shallow things.
However, a woman needs to know that she is more important than some “goal.” This doesn’t mean you have to lavish expensive things on your date, just that you need to put some time and thought into how you date frugally, so that it’s obvious you’re not just “cheap.” And personally, I’d go for creative and free any day over standard and expensive.
@Jane
He most certainly already knows cleanliness is a virtue, especially in dating. That’s not rocket science.
It is for some. And there are different types of messiness. I briefly dated someone who was beautifully groomed (bespoke clothing because he was a nonstandard size, fabulous ties, etc.), but his condo was cluttered enough that another person couldn’t really even fit into his life.
I like really geeky types, the sort who often think that presenting a well-groomed appearance is too superficial to be bothered with. I disagree. It’s a pain.
This is an issue near and dear to me so I will try to address Ben’s concerns:
1. Frugal Dating
Dating should be fun, active and free/cheap. There are tons of ways to do this. Coffee, glass of wine (each buy a round), walk in the park, picnic, trip to the beach, museums on free days, rollerskating, ice skating, art gallery (free wine!), window shopping in art district/high fashion district, shopping at the mall, cook dinner at home (let her help and tell her to bring the wine), go out for desert (not full meal), when dining out go dutch. As far as dating, i think that “going dutch” is more culturally acceptable these days anyway. Expensive dates are boring anyway and dont build connection (stuffy fancy restaurants, movies where the two of you are not interacting, falling asleep at a play or opera) Men assume that women want a guy to impress them with wealth but if you ask most women, I think they would disagree. Spoil her with your personality and passion, not your money from the first date to your 50th wedding anniversary.
2. Seeming like a loser. I hear what you are saying but this is all in your mind. If you are insecure about the money issue, dont bring it up, assume its no big deal. If this is very important to you, be prepared to express it with strength and passion and with good reason (if it comes up, which it shouldnt). You can be a rich movie-star and still feel like a loser, so money is not the issue.
I do it by spending mindfully on things that will make a good but not extravagant first impression, especially at work. I invest in quality clothing pieces that will hold up to the travel, frequent washing/dry cleaning, and professional image required. These are generally found in nicer clothing stores, but I redeem the points I earn on my corporate credit card for gift cards to those stores.
RE: My frayed clothes
Believe it or not, I agree with those of you who have pointed out that this is lazy and cheap. I have a tendency to get stuck in certain ways of thought, and this is a perfect example. I continue to wear clothes that are too small or too big or too tattered or too stained, all because I hate the idea of moving to something new. It feels like a waste of money.
But I know plenty of ways to save money on clothing, right? I know how to shop at thrift stores. I know how to buy quality. I should do this. For some reason, I’ve always been reluctant to do so.
Maybe this is something I can work on over the next year. That way when I meet fellow GRSians, you won’t think, “That J.D. — he’s not frugal, he’s cheap!”
p.s. Remember that Steven and Ben are asking about more than just dating. They’re talking about first impressions in all situations. I think the “neat and clean” answers are a good example of what they’re looking for…
Frugality is about cutting excess and unneeded, not about deprivation or accepting inferiority. Once efficiency of living lean is accepted, it is easy to do and it doesn’t take much to feel excessive or extravagant. If you can live leaner, when things come up that can’t be skipped on or done in a completely frugal spirit (say like car repairs), maybe the money will be there to take care of business or take that trip out of town with friends for the weekend.
What others have said here about dating is true. Making others feel special and being generous with your time shows who you are and how you relate to them. Just because you can shell out cash for entertainment and food doesn’t really mean anything when it comes to your relationship with the other person. If they don’t understand you, maybe they’re not the right person or maybe you’re really boring.
Perhaps we should ask Wal*Mart - in all their interviews about the company, they always parade around their corporate offices (still small and decorated with faux wood panelling from the 1960s). They flipped that and turned it into something desirable.
I too have wondered this. Many of my relatives (of whom I admire) live modestly and are all financially secure, but they don’t really ‘appear’ cheap. Perhaps it’s because what they have is perfectly maintained. Their 20 year old car shines and interior is clean. Their 50 year old furniture, while not stylish, is durable and clean. Perhaps that is the key?
Its a matter of perception. My roomate thought I was a loser for wearing goodwill t-shirts in college while saving up for a down-payment on a car.
I thought he was a loser for putting a new computer, clothes, and rent on a credit card. I also thought he was a loser for going through 3 cars in the 4 years we lived together. Each time he was upside-down on the loan. He’s about to graduate (5 year plan) and will owe student loans. He owes $20k on a car worth $20k after making payments since I’ve known him. His parents have been making payments for him all along. He’s smart, and looks cool, but fiscally he’s screwed and will likely rely on his parents for many years.
He’s a good friend though!
I second most of the posters, but would emphasize the following:
Look in the right places — If you go to expensive bars and clubs, there’s a pretty good chance she’ll want something expensive. On top of the many suggestions, I add trying free intenet dating sites such as OKCupid (if it’s free, that says what she can afford).
Pay attention to her interests — She may have a surprising number of cheap or free interests–hiking, biking, museums, or movies (which are pretty cheap thru Netflix)
Cook for her — For some reason women love that. I’ve also had good luck with handmade cards (I gave my grad school girlfriend a drawing of a bunch of flowers in crayon as a surprise; you’d have thought I bought a dozen roses; it hung on her fridge for months) and cheap flowers. You don’t need a $25 bunch or roses. Some women really like mums or daisies or really bright carnations. And if you do it for no reason, they like ‘em better.
Finally, find the right person. If she can’t understand why you’re frugal, she’s not a potential long-term partner.
The woman I’ve been dating for about a year makes very little money (less than half of what I make) but is independent enough that she doesn’t want me paying for everything and feeling like she’s taking advantage of me. The challenge has been dating frugally for *her* sake, not mine. But then that’s just one of the many ways in which I’m lucky to be with her.
I write for a blog completely dedicated to this exact issue, as it pertains to living in Los Angeles: http://www.fwyok.com
LA is a particular challenge since it has a high cost of living and places a particularly high emphasis on style.
However, I find that living without an excess of money can be a source of creativity and social courage, if someone is willing to put the effort in. This, inevitably, is a one-way ticket out of loser-town.
I believe a gentleman who is budget minded needs to portray to a potential mate that he can financially take care of his family due to the choices he makes.
Subconsciously a woman thinks when a man drops money on her, lives well and has a nice car that he is financially stable. We as frugal people know that is not always the case, but I am talking on a primitive level.
A frugal man has to put more of an effort into the actions he does for her and assure her through getting to know her that he can provide for a family based on how he lives his lifestyle.
Cheap and frugal are two different things. Cheap intrudes other people on your decisions. Cheap is when you split a Popsicle to give to your children’s friends only to give your children a whole piece. Frugal is splitting a Popsicle for your children and their friends. Cheap is having the inexpensive beer at your party for your friends and keeping the good stuff in the fridge for yourself.
You can do romantic things on a frugal budget. My husband surprised me with a dozen flowers for our 15 year dating anniversary (That we no longer celebrate). While doing the laundry I found the receipt – he spent $8 on the dozen. The thought meant so much to me, and the idea he was so savvy was impressive.
here’s the thing
i want the person i’m dating to like me for who i am.. not what i have.. so it really shouldn’t matter
i used to try really hard to try and impress the opposite sex.. but nowadays i don’t care as much.. i drive a tercel to work.. i wear casual clothes that make me feel comfy.. i own two pairs of jeans that have lasted me almost a decade.. i don’t care what people think
i admit sometimes i look like a complete loser.. but knowing that i have money in the bank makes me feel comfortable
don’t judge a book by it’s cover!
I think most people here misunderstood why they pursue financial independence. We should look at what makes us happy. Its easy to say dont care what people think of you,but thats hard to do. We are all humans, one of the biggest things to happiness is relationships and we do care what people think of us. You have to balance out who you are and how you want people to percieve you. Sure you can save 1 million dollars not having kids and wife, people here just dont know happiness
As a chick, here’s my two cents.
We all know that there is a difference between cheap and frugal. CHEAP raises red flags to women, I don’t care what other say. My experience with men is that men who are cheap with their money are cheap with their emotions too. No exeptions.
Cheap was my ex who used to eat my groceries and not replace them. Frugal is my current boyfriend who treats me to a nice dinner on the weekend using a 50% off coupon from the entertainment book.
ARGH I think baddriver’s rule on not paying is really bad. I wouldn’t even go on the date if I know the guy’s not paying. When the bill comes and he splits it, I’ll feel stupid like I was all excited about a date when it’s really just a friendly dinner.
Neat and clean. Open your mind to tailoring. If you just gasped for air, relax. If you tailor your clothes they will look better and probably last longer. Ask a well-groomed co-worker for a recommendation, he/she will be flattered by the compliment. A lot of the clothes already in your closet could be tailored to look a lot more sophisticated and neat, and you wouldn’t have to buy new clothes or part with the items you love.
Ask a trusted friend to help you clean out your closet and rid yourself of anything you’d be embarrassed for a really cute new date to see you in. Try things on if you have to before making the cut. (Make sure it is someone who can be blunt and honest with you!)
One of the best ways to be making a good first and second impression with a woman is by asking the right questions. If you are listening and asking questions and she is telling you more about herself that is good good good. Then, next time you see her, it is so nice when you follow up with a “So how was that concert you were excited about having front row tickets for?” she will be so flattered that you remembered the conversation and note to herself that you are a thoughtful and considerate person and a great conversationalist. And you did all that without spending a single cent.
I think this is another example of cheap versus frugal. I’ve been looking for a new (to me) car to replace my aging Sentra. After doing some research, I decided that an even older car (of a different make, which in my case happens to be a BMW) would be the best option because 1> I wanted something fun to drive because I’m in my car a lot, and 2> I wanted something reliable.
When was the last time you saw someone driving around in a clean BMW and thought “That guy’s cheap”. And yet the whole deal has only cost around $4500. I anticipate getting 5-10 years out of the car with good maintenance. Sounds like a good investment to me.
If I was “cheap” I probably would have held out until the Sentra died, and then spent $2000 on another Japanese economy sedan, which would have died a couple years later, and so on, and so forth.
It’s all about the choices you make.
J.D., I never thought you didn’t know not to wear that, I just thought it wasn’t relevant to the post as a whole. The post is about dispelling unfair first impressions….
Precious has a point. If I pay my own way on the first date, I make a mental note that he isn’t interested in dating me. And then I’d wonder why he picked a romantic or nice restaurant if we were just buds. Talk about a good way to bewilder and alienate a girl.
If you’re already friends though, it could work. You’ve probably hung out before as friends and each paid your own way. If not, don’t confuse the girl. She probably thought you liked her when you asked her to dinner, and if you expect her to pay half and that is a surprise to her, she’ll probably think that she said something at dinner to change your mind before the bill came. Not exactly what you want her to be thinking when you ask her out again.
“Alligator Arms” - A woman with arms too short to reach her purse when the check comes. (A woman should pay her way for many things, but first dates and special occasions and when you’ve picked the place, you should pay.)
Hey Ben,
I’m just recently off the dating scene & happily with my frugal nerd. I really liked Bad Driver’s #52 comment.
I actively didn’t really like my guy the first 3 years that I knew of him. We were on our own not in great places. I think one important thing that happened during our non-dating time was that we both became more comfortable with ourselves. I found that really refreshing. He wasn’t apologetic about himself. He made 6 figures and drove/drives a 96 Saturn. As a programmer, his clothes are a bit nerdy but clean and neat. I liked that he could make his own choices about his money instead of appearing to spend a lot in every category. After saving and giving to charity, he’d use 10% of his bonus to buy himself electronics and he wasn’t apologetic about it which I thought was fair.
On our first date, he spent what I considered an obscene amount on symphony tickets; it definitely made me think he was pretty serious about trying this out. But most of our dates were in coffee shops and museums and I was equally if not more happy with these outings.
I guess my primary encouragement is to spend some time becoming comfortable with yourself and the decisions you are making.
Best wishes on your dating adventures.
This is hilarious–I’ve been worried about the exact opposite. I know the topic of working together with your mate to get rich slowly has been covered in many different entries on this blog–some of which I have not yet read–but I found my own answer. Well, sort of. When I read something that really hits home on this blog, I send it to my wife. I’m finding that the more she reads from this blog, the more she seems to like it and, in the end, the more we think alike about frugality and getting rich slowly. Thanks, J.D., for helping improve the financial side of my marriage!!
Sara A. and Jason (#25 and #27) touched on two issues: cleanliness and quality over quantity. I’d like to add a little to that.
After divorcing young a few years ago, I was dating again. The two men I dated seriously before marrying one of them were both frugal.
One had an apartment with not much in it, but it was all high quality. He had good quality clothes and shoes, but not a lot of it. Everything he wore flattered him, and his place was comfortable to be in. He kept his apartment and his car very clean, even with a very hairy dog companion.
The second had a large artist’s studio with not much in it. He made the most of the open space, and although he didn’t have thousands to spend furnishing it, he selected everything with an eye for aesthetics. Everything had its place, and the few doodads and art pieces he had were inexpensive finds (one even came from the trash!) but were definitely display-worthy.
The men I didn’t have another date with often had messy homes or cars.
Essentially, make your home a pleasure for someone else to be in, whenever you happen to get there.
THAT is a sure winner.
If you’re looking for more cheap date *tips*, Leo @ Zen Habits posted some last year: http://zenhabits.net/2007/03/cheap-but-great-dates/
I think there’s a sexist misconception (expressed in comments and elsewhere) that, when it comes to relationships, women are, at worst, golddiggers and are, at best, looking for a bread-winner. This is NOT TRUE and you need to give more credit and thought when it comes to women you date.
When my boyfriend and I first started dating, he was still in college, while I was in grad school and had a full time job. It was no biggie - when we would eat out, we’d go dutch and sometimes I’d pay for him. When he started working full time, we’d go dutch, and sometimes he’d pay for me. However, he eventually became TOO extravagent - making full time money and BLOWING full time money, so that has become a real point of contention. He drives a beat up Corolla, which I don’t mind in the slightest. However, he uses it as a trash dumpster. So, in short: living frugally and sensibly and being tidy -> TURN ON. Buying tons of crap and keeping your living spaces a pigsty -> LOSER.
Offer to share in cooking and grocery shopping, find stuff outdoors to do, see what’s going on in your local arts scene (lots of free stuff there, usually), etc, etc, etc.
Going out to eat for two people costs far more than staying in cooking a REALLY nice dinner and doing something together, whether it is watching a movie or doing something community rather than consumer oriented. A community activity like an art gallery monthly event or community theater show or botanical garden walk are all cheaper alternatives which ultimately seem more romantic and cheaper.
My boyfriend was dumped by his last girlfriend for being frugal.
The thing is, there’s a big difference between being frugal and being cheap. You really can eat a much better meal for the money if you buy the ingredients and cook at home - and it’s so intimate and cozy.
Expensive restaurants and gifts do not impress me. They speak of someone who is trying too hard. Being yourself and being clear about your goals and what you’re accomplishing is way more important.
I think if the girl you’re dating needs to see an expensive car, nice apartment, and have an expensive date, then you’re dating the wrong kind of girl.
When I first started dating Mr. Sam he lived in a house with 2 roommates (I owned my own home and lived alone) and he drove an older model Lexus (that was paid off and used to belong to his dad). The first few dates we met each other out (so we each drove, no car issues) I’m sure he paid all expenses the first few dates (drinks, dinner, we went to a hockey game [I know now the tickets were free, but didn't know then]). One of our first major expenses as a new couple was a trip to Disney World (we split the cost). Mr. Sam was saving for a house when we met and he explained that early on in the relationship and I very much respected that goal.
You need to be who you are otherwise it won’t work. If I dated a guy that showed up in a nice rental car the first month and then showed up later in his own car I would feel like I had been ‘lied’ to.
I completely agree with most of the pps. One suggestion that I hadn’t heard was to join groups that you are truly interested in and get to know the women there. That way you get a lot more than a “first impression”. I met my DH doing daily rehearsals for community theatre. Not only did we get acquainted before we started dating, but I got character references via the other people who had known and liked him for years.
For the record, DH made a smidge more money than I did, but had bad credit, didn’t own a running car, and was digging out after a financially disasterous first marriage. However, he cooked me dinner and his first “big presents” to me for my 26th birthday were a nice-ish watch and tickets to Les Miz.
Lucky for him, I was looking for a nice guy who wasn’t a crazy spender and who could carry his own weight. I was making my own way, thank you very much.
As a woman, I have to throw in my two cents that I always felt GUILTY if it wasn’t a ‘dutch’ date. I NEVER expected my way paid on a date. (Disclaimer: I married my high school sweetheart and didn’t really do the dating game) But I’m just saying I never expected a free ride. People have varied expectations…
The rest of the advice here is pretty spot-on in my opinion
I was fortunate to find a girlfriend (and then a wife) who wasn’t overly interested in material things, which made being frugal a lot more acceptable to her. I would submit that finding someone with a compatible way of looking at the world of finances makes for a strong relationship. Then again, that could be said for any topic in building a strong relationship (career choices, parenting, religion, money, etc.).
As for first impressions, I haven’t noticed where being frugal has hurt in this regard. I still wear nice clothes at the office (I just try to buy them second-hand, through an online discounter, or pay cash when I do buy retail). I drive an old beater, but I’m not concerned with what people think of my vehicle. Granted, I might have been embarrassed to take my girlfriend out in an old beater (I had a nicer, leased car at the time), but if she had a problem with it we probably wouldn’t have lasted.
Even from the start, the man I eventually married caught my eye by being NOT flashy - by dressing simply, living simply, and arranging his life simply… but being confident at the same time.
I’m not sure why, but from the start it didn’t occur to me to think of any of it (beat up old car included) as indicating he was poor or that there was a problem - somehow, from the first day I met him, it was clear his life was purposeful. The first time we talked about the fact we both lived much below our means and saved most of our income it was a surprise to neither of us.
The calm purposefulness - that was and is the sexiest part.
I wouldn’t underestimate the degree to women actually considering a serious relationship can recognize and respect conscious, purposeful decisions on your part.
Guys actually have it pretty easy. There are lots of frugal options that girls are okay with:
-‘Classic’ old pickup truck or car that is clean inside
- Good grooming counts more than fancy clothes. This includes maintenance: ironing shirts and polishing shoes matters.
- Staying fit also helps. If you’re in good shape you can make ‘ordinary’ clothes look good.
- Roommates in a well maintained house is okay with many ladies
If you have it together she’s not going to notice how much money you’re spending. Just don’t make it too obvious: no coupons for dinner and don’t ever bring money up while on a date. Suggesting an early movie followed by a picnic is different than reworking your plans so you can go see the matinee followed by the early bird special + coupon at a restaurant.
I said it in the other post, I’ll repeat it again: Find a local Meetup group that discusses PF. Go to meetings. Wear an outfit that you are comfortable *and* sexy in. Smile a lot. Be ready with a business card with your email and website. Bike home on your bright orange bike and start checking your voicemail.
I’ve had several dates with women grow out of my PF groups.
I think (and pray!) it comes down to creativity. I really enjoyed reading Kay’s story (comment #20) about the two men she dated.
As a single 24 year old male, very much in a financial pickle, I’m hoping that my creativity, grooming, and simple lifestyle will attract the type of women I want to marry.
RE: Shauna
I bought my car with cash, my retirement goal is to build a log home on some property I have in northern Maine for summer, live here in Florida during the winter, and my portfolio is in the process of making that a possibility.
Just my 26 year old male reply
Just to add to the point of free or low-cost date ideas - DON’T tell your date that the idea came up because it was free or low-cost. Just claim that it seems like a fun thing to do. For example, one of my early dates with my boyfriend was an hour walking around an art museum (I didn’t realize until afterwards that it was on a free night) and then he suggested that we stroll home since it was such a nice night. I just thought that he was enjoying my company and conversation. I felt flattered and attended to and he didn’t have to spend money.
Seems to me that when you genuinely have something in common with a person, the conversation is the important part of the date - and that you can do sitting on a bench in the park or over coffee as well as you can do it somewhere pricey.
The best advice I can give you is to focus on your mutual interests FIRST.
Do stuff to get to know each other and it doesn’t need to be expensive, just interesting.
I agree with JoddeHaa - Be frugal with yourself and generous with others. That doesn’t mean spoiling them or letting them take advantage of you. Generosity is noticing what they’re into and making it happen for them before thinking about your own needs.
That is a hard one! Here’s my story (sorry, it’s long!).
I met my boyfriend off of craigslist. We emailed several times before we met and we were extremely excited to meet because we connected very well through text and found one another very intellectually stimulating — and the pictures were great, too! We decided to go get tea at Powell’s World Cup. (At this time he was unemployed.)
We got there and met up. I was already a little mad because he was an hour late. So we went to order and after we both ordered, he asked if we should split the cost of the tea.
I was standing there dressed in my Sunday best and stopped the presses and loudly asked ‘…you want ME to buy my own TEA?’
Because… really… we had met through the personals, m4w, had had so many late night conversations and he’d asked if I wanted to go out for tea. So I was blown away that he wasn’t going to buy my tea. It was an awkward moment and I didn’t enjoy my tea or that first meeting very much. That first meeting slowly improved as we walked along the aisles of the store, though, and got to know each other through the very frugal date experience of going to the bookstore.
It was a weird series of miscommunications for the first… three dates. He didn’t buy things for me, I expected him to - but it was the only thing that didn’t make sense.
The first night we went out on a ‘REAL’ date, however, it was so clear that it was almost exciting. He said he wanted to wine & dine me all across town, and I treated him to a couple of martinis too. We kissed for the first time that night.
It’s weird, but $$ was an indicator of where we were in terms of courtship. When we started buying each OTHER drinks we knew we had moved up to the next level!
We both work pretty busy hours now and take one another out when we can. He knows that frugality is more important to me than it is to him (he doesn’t have an IRA at 24, but I do, for instance), but he never pressures me to pay for anything and I’m comfortable saying ‘I can’t afford it’ to him. When I get my paycheck, he loves looking through the Chinook Book with me and picking out the best deal for a good meal in town. Meanwhile, he says he enjoys treating me to fancy dinners — it was when we weren’t sure if we really were attracted that he didn’t want to feel like I was using him for dinner, etc.
In our story, we weathered the first couple of awkward interactions about money because we were genuinely attracted to one another ,and it’s worked out really well.
Guys and girls, if a prospective mate can’t tolerate just ‘getting to know each other’ with frugal choices when you first start dating… it’s not worth it, because there’s a lot more to dating than elegant surroundings.
I love reading the responses here. Lots of opinions!
Ben, here’s my two cents. I agree with you that first impressions do count. There is an interest and attraction that is there (or not) in the first few minutes, before you have time to find out if someone is a saver, a spender, etc. I personally like guys who are funny and appear to have a sense of personal style — that doesn’t mean they paid $200 for a designer shirt, but it does mean that maybe they aren’t wearing the same jeans-and-striped-button-down “uniform” as every other 30-something guy in the room. I like it when there ’s just a hint of personality.
I think that meeting women in non-bar settings might also help. Take an inexpensive dance class, a cooking class, or language class. Go to the driving range. Meeting someone in that type of setting gives you more to do and talk about then just going to a bar or restaurant.
Daytime dates are less expensive and also less intimidating, especially at the beginning. As much as I love a man who can cook, be careful about asking a woman over for dinner on the 2nd date — I personally would be uncomfortable about going to a man’s apartment, early in the dating cycle. “Come over to my place” still has that undercurrent of “maybe you’ll stay over.” So ask her over for brunch instead, then go to a matinee, or a walk.
It’s tough out there. If you’re using match.com (unfortunately you have to pay), you could also include a blurb about your financial goals in your profile. That could filter out anyone who has a problem with frugality.
There is absolutely a difference between frugal and cheap. Frugal can be admirable, but cheap is never an attractive quality.
Cheap means that you’re so unwilling to spend money that you deprive yourself of some of the nicer things in life. Life is too short to deprive yourself of quality experiences all the time. You won’t enjoy life as well as you can, and women pick up on that. Women (and men) mostly desire to be happy and fulfilled, not deprived. Happiness comes from quality experiences.
If you want to impress dates on a budget, you need to develop a sense of hipness and creativity. I live in New York City, one of the most expensive cities in the world, but the activities I engage in are mostly cheap or free. Things that have a hipster/bohemian vibe are always low-cost. Instead of going to an expensive event at the Met, I go the latest show at a local indie art gallery. Instead of blowing wads of cash at a blockbuster mainstream movie, I go to an art house cinema. Instead of riding around in a limousine all night, I go kayaking on the river.
My point is that certain activities are naturally low-cost, and offer a fun and fulfilling, quality experience. Anything bohemian/hipster-ish is usually like that. High-society activities like eating out at a super-swanky restaurant are naturally expensive and not very fulfilling or fun (for me at least) anyway.
So for frugal dating, think bohemian and creative. If you’re not particularly creative and hip, then you need to start making more money or spending more on credit. The choices you make with your money influence the kind of lifestyle you have. If you enjoy being frugal, get used to being bohemian-ish. If deep down you want to live the high-society lifestyle, then get a better job or learn to live credit card to credit card. That’s the choice you need to make.
make the people around you and looking in on your life see what you’ve *replaced* your stuff with. Deleting stuff just to delete stuff never works, you have to have something replace it. By and large that replacement tends to be more valuable than the *stuff* people covet.
zach
pennywise-poundfoolish.typepad.com
To veer a little off-topic:
“I personally like guys who are funny and appear to have a sense of personal style — that doesn’t mean they paid $200 for a designer shirt, but it does mean that maybe they aren’t wearing the same jeans-and-striped-button-down “uniform” as every other 30-something guy in the room.”
You wouldn’t believe how much time I’ve spent hunting for affordable non-striped-button-down shirt options. I used to wear some ribbed sweaters too, but those seem to have gone out of style, leaving my viable non-ugly options as A) striped button downs and B) solid-color button-downs. It’s a little awkward, let me tell you, but unfortunately, men’s clothing has always tended toward the Uniform of the Year pattern - without tremendous flexibility or room for personal flair. Please don’t judge too harshly those of us who just try to make the best of it.
I already responded to Steve in the comments where he asked the question I think.
My husband driving an older car, not doing stupid things with money etc… was actually a good thing when I met him. Our first date was going to a park where some of his friends were juggling fire. It was completely free and awesome to watch him playing with a burning staff (one way to impress a certain type of girl I guess lol).
Just because I drive a 13 year old car doesn’t mean I let it look like crap. I keep it cleaned out and keep it maintained. Also, buying second hand clothing doesn’t mean buying things with holes in it.
Not sure I’m qualified to give advice since I’m a whack-job who found another whack-job and we’ve been living happily in sin for 10 odd or so years now…
But when I was a red-blooded single, I was highly wary of the guys who dropped a lot of cash on me, or our activities, early on. Was it an done with an eye towards an owed “cup of coffee” at the end of an evening? (I know no readers here make that conclusion but the ladies know it happens–in no uncertain terms–more often than not.)
We’re presumably all adults and like the occassional snuggle without strings so of course we will spend some time casting a wide net without long term thoughts. But as a man, be aware seeming frugal might be to your advantage because sometimes spending money can send exactly the wrong message to a woman in the early stages of getting to know each other (re the original post/first impressions).
You might get offered more free cups of coffee to cap off a perfectly sweet evening in the park if she feels there were no expected return on investment.
Keep in mind, to someone that is not frugal all frugal people appear cheap, so it is pointless in trying to win that person over.
Most frugal people won’t be to quick to condemn your habits because they are likely to be doing many of the same things. But if you come across as simply trying to “beat the system” at every turn and save a buck, then you will appear to be cheap to everyone (even frugal people).
Wow, so many comments! Good pick JD.
I would suggest asking a female friend for an evaluation. Buy her a NICE dinner, with a bottle of wine, and level with her.
It may be something other than what you are assuming. Sometimes you need an independent evaluation.
My last boyfriend had frequent cash injections from his family, spent money, didn’t carry debt, but also didn’t focus on frugality. It raised a flag with me, because I knew we’d continue to have problems. We’re friends now, which works better for us.
My current boyfriend drives a late-model Saturn, rents just like I do, and is a bargain hunter like me. We both have good taste and like good things, but we have good impulse control. One of the things I liked about him was his sense of financial responsibility.
Yes, there are women who will care about superficial ways of spending money (just as there are men who do). But the smart ones know that it’s not what you spend that makes you financially smart, it’s what you have in the bank.
I will say, however, that my now-boyfriend was wise in our first dates. We went to the park and enjoyed cookies. The next time, we went to the ocean and had dinner at a nice restaurant. We balance our dates between inexpensive activities and the occasional splurge (this week, I treated us both to Thai massage, about $120 total). I think it’s this sense of balance that makes things work.
Oh, and on the first date, don’t go Dutch if you asked her out. This is SO CHEAP and TACKY. I always look at it like, “What? You ask me on a date but you can’t pony up the $5 for my coffee? See ya.” It’s just bad etiquette.
As a lifelong bachelor, I can attest to knowing something about dating, although apparently unsuccessfully
I can definitely tell you that frugality is not just for married people; there’s lots of ways to be frugal and still have fun and look fine. Clothing at discount stores like Ross or even thrift stores tend to look just fine, are often name brand, and definitely cost less. There’s lots of free dates out there, like hiking, heading to the beach (at least here), and low cost ways to have a fun night out (try a DVD from the library at home rather than a movie theater or a community theater rather than a fancy live show).
I think there’s lots of options!
As a woman who ended up with $35,000 in debt after living with a financially irresponsible boyfriend for 4 years, when I started dating again it was very important for me to only spend my time in a serious relationship with a financially responsible man. I was looking for a man who could enjoy a bike ride, hike in the woods, kayak on a river, etc rather than the dinners and nightlife out, which left me fat and broke when it ended. Yeah, much bitterness.
I dated quite a few men over one summer, and two stuck out in my mind. One was a software developer, drove a Mercedes, had a house, an interior decorator, and housekeeper. He certainly had the income level to support all these things, but I had concerns about his frugality. Frankly, I thought he was too expensive for me. I wouldn’t be able to keep up with his lifestyle. This is what got me in trouble in the first place. It wasn’t even what I wanted. A housekeeper? For a single person? Wash the dishes yourself!
Another guy I was dating was an engineer. He made almost as much as the software developer, but drove a tiny little 12 year old Ford Festiva. His friends drove Mustangs and Imprezas and made fun of him, but he laughed it off in good humor. Yeah, maybe we weren’t styling when we went on dates, but we ate at nice places, went biking, hiking, skiing and more. The thing that attracted me to him was he was frugal and generous in the right ways. We didn’t have a pimp ride and a 2 story house, but we ate dinner at nice places occasionally, bargain shopped for nice vacations and flew coach, while balancing with sensible dinners at home and netflix at night. Oh, and we wash our own dishes.
Yep, we’re still together.
Wow, J.D., lots of comments! Maybe you should think about setting up a Get Rich Slowly dating site, eh?
It’s been said already, but, as a single female, it matters a lot to me if the person I’m seeing takes care of themselves (clean, neat) and their property (clothes, car). Doesn’t matter if it’s old, used, whatever. It’s the respect for others and things that shows, and that’s HOT.
#6, Sabrina, really nailed it. For my 2 cents…
Buck up, for starters. If you’re ashamed of living frugally, that’s going to come through. If you feel doubtful about your lifestyle, why are you living it? If you believe in what you’re doing, be confident. Trust in the rightness of your decisions.
I ride my bicycle to work. When people ask why, I explain that I live so close by, it’s actually faster to bike - plus it’s nice to get a workout without needing a gym.
Cooking at home instead of going out? Now that’s something to be proud of - especially if you’re a guy. Women dig guys who cook. And if you don’t believe me, ask my fiancee
Make it clear that your choices are tied to a purpose. If you’re in debt and paying it down, there’s a time and place where it’ll be appropriate to address that (though not on the first date, I’m sure). It’s pretty simple - “Yeah, back in the day I spent too much money. But I’m looking ahead more now, I’ve done some growing up. I want to pay off my bills and save more… for a house, a family, that entrepreneur dream [insert goal here]“. Yes, you took on some debt, but you’re confident and thinking ahead, and that is appealing to a mature person with half a brain. Which is who you’d want anyway.
The main thing though… try not to date. Dating sucks. It’s forced, it’s contrived, and it’s a strain on your wallet and your time. Focus on activities, on just doing what you enjoy. Be more active in hobby groups, your church, whatever. You’re far more likely to meet someone that way, and have a better connection from the get-go.
Maybe the problem is NOT that you don’t look nice, it’s that you look like a million bucks and attract girls who want to marry millionaires! (Let those go, and tell the one who likes the frugal you - hey, by saving on this and that, I will be able to retire a millionaire.)
You know, if you are attracting a lot of girls that end up thinking you’re too cheap, maybe you ARE making a good first impression (you are still getting dates, right?) and they are making a bad last impression!
Ben, this may not be true of you, but I’ve known men who were frugal, geeky, or otherwise non-mainstream and complained they couldn’t get dates, and it turned out they were only interested in mainstream women–that is, they passed over women who didn’t have manicures, professionally highlighted hair, etc., and only wanted women who spent a lot of money/time/energy on their appearance. If you don’t know already, it would be good for you to learn from a woman friend some of the facts of female grooming and dressing, and then you can scan a room and tell the women spend a lot and probably want a mate who does too, and the women who are more frugal and would appreciate a frugal mate. You may have to change your idea of “hot,” though, if that idea has been created by the mainstream media and professional models/actresses.
There may be frugal women out there who somehow manage to look like models, but most of us don’t and don’t want to–we’ve got better things to spend our time and energy on.
And as a bonus, you’ll end up with a mate who won’t drive you crazy with expensive grooming and dressing habits down the line.
I feel like I’m going to get flamed for this comment, but hopefully it’ll help someone.
It reminds me of that line by Henry Miller about his frugal family: “It was always for tomorrow but tomorrow never came.” If one isn’t willing to set aside a certain amount of money for daily or weekly extravagances (such as dates) when will it ever be okay to spend that money so direly saved?
On the other hand, I can think of nothing sexier than a man with a plan. If I were to go on a first date with a man able to passionately convey that he is trying to go against the grain of mindless consumerism, he’d definitely get a second date.
I stopped caring what people thought of me, which made me be myself more, which made me more attractive to others.
But in the end if a girl you’re dating judges frugal choices (car, apartment) and you keep them around anyway then you’re basically telling them they’re right:
YOU aren’t enough.
#119, Nicole, right on! Ditto that!
You are enough. If you don’t believe that, who will?
@ Natural Beauty (post #117)
I concur!!
Thanks Maren -
And yes, sometimes you never know what you get when you bring acceptance.
My love (of all loves), he drives the ultimate of junk cars, but for the longest while, little did I ever know, he has a nest egg the size of a house.
I agree with so many things said already.
Frugal is fine, cheap is not. Many folks’ favorite places to eat are not expensive at all, so find out where your date likes to go often and go there. If she only picks the most expensive places, she’s probably not the girl for you. And, similarly, the guys who spent the most money on me on dates always ended up being the losers, actually. One guy took me out for the most expensive dinner and sent me a dozen roses the next day. I thought it was too much and he was insincere. (Imagine my surprise when I found out he’d dated two other girls I’d known and done exactly the same thing for their first dates. That was his M.O.) People who throw money at you often do it because there is no substance behind them.
Generosity speaks volumes about a person and it generosity with money does not necessarily mean the most … it could be generosity with time, generostiy with your creativity, etc.
I don’t want to go on a date or be with a guy who talks about nothing but money. That is a miserable time.
I think Ben will do fine as long as he believes in what he is doing, his approach, etc. His sincerity will come through and like others said, if he is honest about his situation, that will make a huge difference with his dates.
On another note, J.D.–I promise I am not picking on you, really … I do love your blog and your posts, but I laughed out loud when I read your comment that you might try to get rid of your ratty clothes over the next year. Come on. You are a man who erased all your debt in a year, right? I think you can purge your ratty clothes and replace them by tasteful thrift shop finds in a couple of weeks at most. You don’t need a ton of clothes. Seriously, most of us end up wearing the same few pieces over and over again even though we tend to have closets full of clothes. You can do it, J.D.! Even in your work-from-home state, you should be “dressing to the shoes” every day because we are all more productive when we are dressed to work. (This topic be another good post on working conditons that are best for success.) BTW, words like “might” and “try” mean you’ve already made up your mind you are not going to do something. I know, I am guilty of using them at times just like everyone else.
You need to be smart about money, not cheap about it. That’s much more attractive then mindless spending.
Lisa
whew! what a lot of great comments! I’m also single and appreciate someone who wants to do interesting things - they don’t have to be expensive at all.
One thing to consider: I hope that a person who is interested in watching their funds is looking for similar behaviors in the person they date. For example, I would find it a turnoff if a guy had a new shiny car and a fancy apartment and all the latest gadgets. To me that’s not the best use of funds, even though here in the bay area it seems like *everyone* has the latest gadgets!
Of course since I’m the thrifty gal, I tend to spend lots of time at home or out with friends doing inexpensive things.. leaving me to think I’ll never meet a guy to date!
Who really cares what people think? I tend to live quite frugally and I think that the people who drive nice cars are probably in some serious debt while others that drive 10 year old cars are going to be able to enjoy a nice retirement.
It’s so sad that this society basis judgement on materials. Those who are frugal will have the last laugh
Thanks for yet another great post! I often wonder when I meet someone new: “can I afford this guy”? “Is he going to mind that my car is 13 years old and held together with glue”? “Is he going to understand why I’m working two jobs, and can’t go off for a weekend skiing trip without saving for it for a couple of months”?
That said, it goes both ways: I also look for partners who have good money sense, although that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s wealthy. It just means he knows what to do with a dollar, regardless of his prior financial history. Does he drive a clunker but have dreams of early retirement (and the commitment to his 401K to go along with it)? If so, I’m okay with that (who am I to judge, after all?).
Hmmm, maybe someone should write a book on this topic, if there’s not one already out there. . . .
Here’s my take: it is never in the interest of a man to reveal his true financial status to a woman, ever. Doing so is always a losing proposition for the man. A bachelor should appear far less successful than he actually he is, because a single man who is successful will always get walked all over by women who think they deserve to share the wealth. Funnel at least 50% of your paycheck directly to an account in the Cayman Islands. Make her pay for the dates, make her buy you a car and keep the tank full, and have her put a down payment on a house, to make up for all of the gifts and handouts you’ve showered women with since you were a youth.
There are 1.5 billion women on the planet aged 18-35. If any woman calls you cheap for any reason, tell her to go to hell, and never look back. Life is too short to waste time on them. For every woman like this, there are a thousand others who are prettier, sexier, and nicer, and a lot less controlling. Women should worship you for the handsome masculine god that you are and they should be the ones who are thankful and honored to be with you, not the other way around.
Leave the demanding women to the nice (but dumb) guys who let women walk all over them.
A lot of times, women like to try to control you by setting expectations for you to try to live up to. By ignoring those expectations, and just doing your thing, you become interesting.
It often works in your favor to flaunt your imperfections, particularly if you can do it in a humourous way. (But, not with a ‘poor me’ attitude.)
How much money you have in the bank should be a non-issue, if you’re dealing with the sort of woman you OUGHT to be dealing with.
-Don’t be perfect. Be interesting.
There is a difference between being a cheap date verses a frugal date. Being cheap smacks of selfishness while being frugal is borne out of necessity. A lot of frugal people are generous with what they do have. A perceptive and open-minded person can certainly tell the difference.
I work in an industry that employs mostly young kids, many right out of high school. I think the average age is about 21. At 41, I am just a crazy old lady with my quaint cash using ways. Many of the guys at work have girlfriends who suck them dry of every penny. These poor guys, so young and well, clueless, feel they have to shower their girlfriends in expensive gifts to keep them interested. Sadly, the girls practically demand the fancy outings and gifts. Why bother working and getting that stuff yourself, when you can smile and sweet talk a guy into getting it for you. And if it means maxing out a credit card, well that’s just the way it’s gonna be. Of course, I bite my tongue because a) they are blinded my love and lust and wouldn’t listen to me anyways b) it’s a lesson they need to learn. Sadly, one of my friends, a nice guy with an okay job, found himself a girl who took one took at him and instead of seeing a kind, gentle guy, she saw a giant unlimited ATM. No matter how hard I tried to get him to see what he was getting into, he stayed with the girl. Instead of reading the warning signs and running for the hills, he is now saddled with the responsibility of supporting a girlfriend who doesn’t want to hold a job, her 3 year old child from another relationship (the child’s father is MIA) and now a baby due in the summer. Now my friend will be living in what can only be described as grinding poverty for the next 18-20 years because he ignored the warning signs of someone who sucked him dry from the very beginning of the relationship. So my only dating advice is, if someone pressures you for stuff and fancy dates, get out. Flee.
Apologies if this is already mentioned (I haven’t read all 131 comments), but frugality can easily be reframed as “green” and “sustainable” (a laudable lifestyle choice these days).
A few words about how I see “frugal” being different from “cheap”.
“Cheap” is just being cheap, acquisitive, and not wanting to spend money as an end in itself.
“Frugal” is not having a problem with spending money, only on spending money for things you don’t value. To me being frugal is trying as much as possible to use your money only on things you appreciate.
I live where I do, because I like it. Having been poor in my 20s, it seems like a palace to me and I honestly would not appreciate another place very much.
I drive the car I do, again, because when I was in my 20s I was poor. I didn’t have a car. It is enough for me merely to have a functioning ( paid for ) car without rust one that doesn’t look like a “beater”.
Being green is one of my values so I am happy to hang onto my old Honda until it is completely used up or some of those much promised eco friendly cars come out in 2010.
I don’t spend my money on these things because those things don’t give me much of a charge. It wouldn’t be “frugal”.
I do get a charge out of socializing. I have no issues with taking a *good* woman on a nice date and spending large amounts money to have a lot of fun. That is something I get a charge out of. Spending my money there versus on things I am luke warm to is being “frugal”.
While really cool women, green women, progressive women understand the value of owning a Prius at a first impression the value of using up an old Honda isn’t obvious.
I have seen the judgmental looks on various faces. This is often taken care of once I read their face, intercept their thoughts and explain myself. Sometimes it isn’t.
I guess the key is to steer my dates away mistaken superficial signs until they get to know me.
That or drive my GM Volt in 2010 to my new apartment.
Thanks for the MANY interesting comments. I am bookmarking this thread and I will read every single one.
Oh, my stars, the second Get Rich Slowly has a dating site, I will be bachelorette #2.
Sigh… if your car is obviously well-maintained and you are wearing natural fibers and are well-groomed, well, sweetie, you don’t want *that* woman anyhow. Go to church, or synagogue, or a not-for-profit, or learn to knit and join the local knitter’s guild to meet a woman of quality and maturity (note: that’s not age. I know several mature sixteen-year-olds, although I recommend you hold off on dating them for a while). The high-maintenance look, when financed by serious credit cards rather than, say, a friend who trades manicures for a few hours a month keeping the books in order, is the definition of cheap, no matter how expensive she looks. But I bet you knew that. (Me? I’m a professional model, seriously. But I’m fortunate that my look is “classic” and I have hair and features that mousse abuse would only detract from, and the exercise my body best responds to is nearly free— I run, dance, and work out with dumbbells. Bless my parents!)
I absolutely loathe the fooferaw over “who pays.” The person who suggested the restaurant pays, and if there is a next date, the other person suggests. But you know what I, as a frugal woman, really want? I want to stop wasting time on “date-like” activities. Save it for when we’re married, why don’t you? I work seventy hours a week when I *don’t* model. (Yes, I know, I sound like a complete lazybones, but I also garden and run a small business on the side— I hope I might be forgiven.) What I would really like is for someone to keep me company and do laundry with me, or spend an afternoon helping an imaginary someone alphabetize his bookshelves or weed the garden together. Stuff that tells you what you really want to know— what does he *really* read, does he pre-treat, does he think clover in a lawn is a weed or does he have opinions about nitrogen fixing? Anyone can make Ben Affleck jokes after stumbling out of a movie theater, but can he make me laugh about caulk?
And the people above are right. When you are grown-up enough to be in a relationship in the first place, forethought, dependability and goals are *very* sexy.
(Sigh. The new standards for a wife, I understand, are that she should be under the age of twenty-six and either own her own house or be able to pay such a sizable down payment on one that you will be free and clear before she reaches the age of thirty, one of you can be a stay-at-home parent. Which means I’ll never have anything more interesting than a hot-water bottle to cuddle up to. Oh, well. Being able to be the captain of your fate is fun, too. Plus, I think caulk is inherently funny.)
P.S. Consideration is good, too, as mentioned above. One of my older male relatives makes women swoon by his courtly, old-fashioned habit of standing up briefly whenever a woman sits down at or leaves the table, and a day at the park flying kites with $30 worth of flowers sent the day after trumps a $400 dinner in terms of impressiveness.
P.P.S. IMO, it’s not confidence that attracts. Both men and women go for people that they feel they can make happy.
Honestly, being a little generous to family and friends and holding back a little with yourself shows a potential mate can show a lot to your potential partner. Sure, high maintenance people will be put off by a lack of expensive “courting” but the right person can look beyond the older sweatshirt and see the hand holding flowers picked on the side of the road on the way home from work.
Living frugally is hardly looking like a cheap skate. My big vice was video games. At 60 bucks a pop, even a mild amusement becomes a major purchase. So, I swapped to a Netflix-esque service, Gamefly. 24 bucks a month, not even half the price of a single title, and I get two games out a once. I play between three and five games a month and save a bundle.
It’s not hard to have your cake and eat it, too. You just need to be patient. When I needed new work clothes, I hit Target instead of some overpriced, Fifth Avenue design shop. The pants look great, fit great and didn’t set me back a week’s pay.
Always go dutch (Splitting all bills down the middle). Paying for your date is totally a tradition for our parents generation.
Meet for Happy Hours. I know restaurants that serve full meals for $2-5 after purchasing one drink. Usually leave fed & drank for $10.
Go to cheap movies. $3 for a movie that came out 3 months ago, who cares? Right now, my theater is playing “No Country For Old Men” and “I Am Legend”, pretty new releases!
I dated the Emperor of Cheap for several years and even lived with him for a while. He was attractive to me because he was extremely sexy: he kept himself in top shape, he was smart, and he had a great sense of humor. He did not dress well — a mutual acquaintance (male) refused to be seen in public with him because he used to wear old, worn-out nylon shorts that let it all hang out (lately he’s started wearing better clothes). One attraction to him was that having grown up as a blue-collar kid, I imagined I wanted to escape the upper-class lifestyle I had fallen into, which was populated by snobs and airheads.
And it’s true: I do feel more at home with working-class and middle-class people than among the rich…who indeed are different from us.
This guy managed to quit his job in his late 40s, and his frugal lifestyle — combined with an annual TDY of six weeks to three months with the Air Force Reserve — allowed him to never look back. When he bought a house, he bought it in cash. When he bought a car, he bought it in cash. He was able to do so because he was extremely, extremely tight. Today he lives on Social Security, proceeds from savings, and his Air Force pension and says he does not know how to spend all the money — most of it goes into savings. His lifestyle is comfortable: he has a nice home in a clean, safe neighborhood, he drives a new Camry, he travels whenever he wants to, he goes dancing several nights a week, hikes and bicycles every day, goes to concerts and community activities a couple of times a week, volunteers, and is never bored. As I scribble he’s planning to spend a large part of today at a five-hour performance of the opera Tristan und Isolde, for which he obtained a free ticket. He spends less than $12,000 a year.
Bully for him. But for me there was a limit. After a while I became disenchanted with habits like cooking breakfast, lunch, & dinner on a camp stove in the motel room when we traveled–that’s if he could be persuaded to pony up $20 (no joke!) to stay in a room instead of sleeping on the ground. I got tired of being embarrassed to be seen in public with a man wearing threadbare clothes. I began to feel it was tedious and annoying to be asked to buy him a cup of coffee (after he invited me out) because after all the last time he bought mine (weeks before).
I’d say you don’t have to live like the King of Siam to be attractive to women who have something between the ears. But you do have to behave as though you’re at least close to normal. Be reasonably well groomed: get your hair cut; yard-sale the threadbare, faded clothing and wear simple, clean slacks and shirts in good condition. Get the fat off, get rid of the cigarettes, and keep yourself in reasonable physical shape. Keep the car clean and in good repair but otherwise don’t worry about it — women who are more impressed by your car than by you are not worth your time.
Then develop a repertoire of fun that doesn’t require much cash outlay: hiking and bicycling (get bike at yard sale or sheriff’s auction) are very good. You can meet interesting young women through local hiking and biking groups and through Meetup.com’s interest groups. You can combine a picnic with a hike or bicycle outing — very cheap, lots of fun. Look for free or inexpensive concerts in your community and at local colleges — these are usually listed at your local NPR station’s website. Develop frugal hobbies and buy the gear for them at estate sales, yard sales, and thrift shops. Check out the Emperor’s list of 60 free or low-cost ways to entertain yourself, which he contributed to Funny a while back; go to the Archive to find it.
Finally, be patient. Women come and women go. We are as the sands on the seashore.
Presently in the USofA living within one’s means is scarce. We are a mile wide and an inch deep. How else do you explain driving a Hummer, Survivor, The Apprentice, American Idol, and on and on…
I think you have to budget for dating. It’s expensive. Most GRS type posts make a lot of sense for married couples, but for single guys, you have to set aside a couple hundred a month to go out. Dinner dates at home aren’t acceptable first dates. Likewise, most women don’t really want to wander out into parks with a man they just met. Social activities such as bowling, pool, movies, etc, all cost money.
Now you can look at it as a “waste” but humans are social creatures. Just like housing, food, clothing are necessities, you need to budget for going out. It’s quite a bit different than accumulating goods, it’s an activity, not materialism.
On the other note, I agree that when it comes to appearances, simple, quality, classy beats out junky, messy, cluttered, etc. A few pieces of nice furniture, a few year old nice car in good condition, a nice pair of shoes, a couple good pairs of jeans, and a few nice shirts go a long ways.
And on that note, good looks and flashy things may attract someone, but personality is what keeps someone. There’s always someone with better looks and more money around the corner…that’s why you can’t rely on those things.
Hi. I’m a single, frugal woman. One dating reality is that men want women who look good. But, according to the beauty and fashion industry, to look good costs a ton. Don’t be fooled. Here are my secrets for looking good on a budget:
– Stay fit. I walk everywhere, hike with my dogs, and run. I’m in my mid-thirties and I’m fitter than I was when I was twenty. A good body makes simple clothes look great and attracts men.
– Find a great hairstyle that works with your natural hair type. If you are constantly fighting with your hair to make it a different texture and clour, you are proabably spending a lot of money on salons and products. I have long, thick, straight brown hair. I keep it simple and clean — and only visit a cheap salon for an occasional trim. I think it looks good.
– Women spend a lot of money trying different makeup and skincare products. My advice is to find what works for you and stick to it (with slight adaptations over time). Don’t be influenced by ads that try to convince you that you need the latest and greatest thing. A good moisturizer, a foundation and blush that work with your natural skin tones, a day and an evening lipstick, and black eyeliner and mascara, are all I find necessary. Men are not impressed with the latest shades of eyeshadow, etc.
– In terms of clothes, the same advice applies. Find “your look” and stick to it (with slow adaptations over time). Pick a signature color (mine is red) for a few special pieces. Other than that, a few neutral, well-fitting pieces are all you need (jeans, black pants, black turtleneck, few t-shirts, well-cut jacket) . And a few signature accessories (a great ring, bracelet, or scarf) will spark things up. You will look unique and confident.
Smile, look men in the eye, be kind, and ask questions. These things are what men crave.
I’ll be the second to concur with Natural Beauty’s entire post #117 as well. Beautiful women don’t come cheap. It takes money for her to look good so when she goes out with you, of course she’s going to expect a bit of wining and dining. She looks good for you so you can impress your friends, you show her a good time. That’s the price you pay. If you don’t want a woman who’s only concerned about what’s in your wallet, take an honest look at the women you’re attracted to. Do they live a frugal lifestyle? If they don’t, why would you expect them to respect yours?
Rika said in post #8:
“Hmmm … I find it interesting that this seems to be far more of a worry for men than for women.”
Maybe men don’t care how big a woman’s bank account is, but personal finance affects dating for both sexes, just in different ways. To be considered beautiful by society’s standards takes money. Try being a frugal, kind, but less-than-average attractive woman and see how many men come beating down your door. If you can’t afford to get your hair done, straight teeth or clear skin it doesn’t matter how good a person you are on the inside. Men are visual, and if they are turned off by what they see on the outside it’s less likely they’ll take the time to get to know what’s on the inside. I’m extremely frugal (maybe I border on cheap) so I’m certainly not seeking a rich man, just one who has his act together (or is getting it together) but I’m no great beauty and I accept that those men simply aren’t after me.
Like a lot of others have mentioned, I think there is a limit to how frugal you want to be. I think there’s a big difference between being a loser and being frugal. Just as I think there’s a big difference between being frugal and being cheap.
Anything having to do with social behaviors is going to be a toss up anyway. Different people will look at you different ways and their opinions may or may not matter to you. If it means that much to you to impress someone, then take the time (and money) to do so. Otherwise, live the lifestyle you want to and worry less about how others perceive it. It can be a fine line.
when my husband and i first started dating, he told me that his number one goal was financial independence. that put everything into context. and because we shared that goal, we were on the same page immediately.
over the years other people have obviously been confused by our financial choices, but that’s more entertaining than anything else. and eventually some of them figured it out.
What you need, is a nice-look sport jacket from Goodwill or something. Keep it in your office as backup. It tidies any look up!
I’m a sloppy guy and I destroy clothing with stains, rips, anything you can imagine. Thrift stores are great if you can get past the germ thing - after several strange skin infections, I can’t anymore. I’d like to say, Kohls rocks. Nice clothes, cheap when the sales are going. Unlimited $12 khakis at Costco, too. I’m sure I still look like a slob, but I don’t waste a lot of dough to get there.
As far as the ladies go, when I met my wife I was rarely bathing and was wearing outlandish thrift store clothes. Plus had hair to my shoulders. Spring for a movie once in a while, sneak in some snacks and it’s $20 that will prove you aren’t incapable of whimsy. Also, visit the “health center” at your local college for free condoms. (The “hidden cost” of dating!) Don’t skimp here, you could end up exceeding your budget in unimaginable ways.
If you ask me out I expect you to be prepared to pay. I am not averse to free concerts or other inexpensive venues, but low or no tipping is definitely too cheap for me. Yes, I am making a judgment there.
There are a lot of women out there who fall into the “not cute” category. I am one of them. I have been described as “terrifyingly competent”. Peculiarly enough there are a number of married men who find me absolutely delightful, and we maintain fun friendly relationships. Yes, their wives know, and no we don’t sleep together. Someday I will have to figure out why this situation exists.
Anyway, the man who is brave enough to actually ask me out and get to know me is in for a number of surprises. The man who is brave enough to marry me will be quite happy when we trade financial statements.
My advice to the young men? Figure out what your dating budget is, and get started. And by the way, no matter how cute they are at 25, 50 years old happens to us all eventually. Yourself included.
Character and integrity do count.
I worked my butt off to pay for my own college and law school education. I had a child right out of law school whose father (my now ex-husband) turned out to be, unfortunately, a 30-year-old teenager. I sat on my ass in the dark eating Ramen for MONTHS to save up for a down payment on a house. (In a rare stroke of luck, I got the down payment together RIGHT before the housing market really got crazy, and ended up with a nice little investment.)
All this is to say? I wasn’t so much into 30something guys with “cool” low-paying jobs, no savings or plans for the future, and no avocation besides hanging out with their buddies. And men my age with roommates and NO damn good explanation as to why? Dealbreaker.
(Now married to gorgeous guy with good job, conservative financial values, living happily ever after with our two new babies and hopefully someday more…)
Please don’t be too cheap. In the early dating stages, two people just don’t know much about each other, and read a lot into big and small signs. As a woman, if I have to pick you up in /my/ 10-year-old car, that is a bad initial sign. (At least find a way to meet me at the rendezvous.)
Just as you probably don’t want to hear about my failed relationships on a first date, I don’t want to know about how you’re now resolving your sordid past with easy credit. Those are the sort of details that go over better after a few dates. Look good.
If I’m shaving my legs, applying makeup, and wearing my heels, the least you can do is get a haircut and put on the best thing in your closet. It’s worth spending a little more money or time to have nice clothes that you can mix and match for work, dates, interviews, etc. Buy the best quality you can reasonably afford. If you don’t have a Bloomingdale’s budget, mix up some Macy’s clearance - Old Navy - Filene’s Basement - TJ Maxx finds. If you’re taking a date home for the first time, make sure it’s kind of clean and has some furniture, maybe even a little style. You’d be surprised what you can find for the home at yard sales in upper-crust neighborhoods.
My best tip is that you can cover up a lot of potential negatives by being a thoughtful guy. (You’re broke? Eh, not great. But if you make my favorite dinner, help me with my laundry, take care of me when I’m home sick, and/or remember not to call me Thursday nights when LOST is on, I’ll propose to you AND pay for the wedding;)
Annoying part with date tips:
You shouldn’t have break out the credit card and say goodbye to your hard-earned new FICO score to date. There are some ways to do dating right while not spending as much money (and not look cheap):
You can go to a cheap movie without having to see “Bee Movie” at the dollar theater. If there are colleges or museums in your area, they often have indie/foreign film showings for little or nothing. In Atlanta, the High Museum shows movies on Saturdays - $5 for non-members, $4 for members. You show that you have culture and save some money. Buy a coffee or dessert later and discuss. $20 max.
Take a girl to lunch, not dinner. You can often afford a nicer restaurant at lunchtime. Side benefits: Lunch is informal (save $ on dry cleaning/wardrobe), and it’s easier to make excuses if you need to get out of dodge (i.e. “got to go back to work” or “the cable guy is supposed to come over at 2.”) Avoid the overpriced desserts, and take her for ice cream or gelato afterwards. Depending on the place, 30-40 dollars well spent for lunch, tip and dessert. (And anyway, you spend half of it on yourself. Tell me you have at least 30 dollars?)
If you’re book people, go to the bookstore for a reading. Heck, even buy her the book if she likes it. It’s a date, a thoughtful gift (we love a thoughtful gift), and it cost you $14 (for a mid-list paperback) or $25 (for a fancy hardcover.)
I hope this helps. Good luck finding the frugal (not cheap) woman of your dreams!
The whole point of living frugally is to sacrifice things that don’t matter and enjoy the things that do. You can drive a nice used car if you pay cash for it. Living frugally over time should allow you the benefit of showing others what you have wisely in.
I’m taking a somewhat different twist on this: I’m putting time and money into an investment that will, in the long run, save me money on clothes, but make me (and my husband, once we start on his wardrobe) look like a standout dresser.
You see, I have an unusual size and shape for a woman, so off-the-rack clothes that look good and fit me well are a) hard to find, eating my precious time and increasing my blood pressure in the process, and b) rarely cheap. Therefore, since I was a fair-to-middling sewer to start with, I am learning to construct my own clothing from the ground up: not just sewing from patterns, but learning how to draft patterns from my body shape, to make garments that are in a style *I* like and look good in, regardless of what is in fashion.
The plan is that I will, eventually, have a small number of reusable cotton muslin patterns from which I can make my own clothes, adjusting as necessary. Then, once my wardrobe’s more squared away, I’ll start on my husband’s.
I live in a small town and they can be ruthless. Well their were people that you can never beat so why compete. These people would rather go into bankruptcy than to have you get one up on them. If you can find a bigger definition of a fool please let me know. For example when I bought a truck because I had to have a truck and four other people bought a really nice vehicle right after that I’m sure just try to feel like they had put me in my place. But unlike them I know who I am. One girl wouldn’t have anything to with me because I just wasn’t fancy enough for her. Well three years later my truck is paid for and all all these other people are in deep financial trouble. The look of shame on this girls face after I saw her when her man got her into serious financial trouble? “Priceless.”
As long as you are courteous, thoughtful, attentive, clean and do not act like a jerk, you will get plenty of nice women to date you. The places you frequent will be the same ones that these nice ladies will also frequent. Women who have on their dating agenda “the man who “gets” me must be a conspicuous consumer” will demonstrate their shallowness and insecurity very quickly, so you aren’t missing out on much.
One hint, though…wherever you take your date, please tip generously (not extravagantly) and treat the staff politely. I have been on MANY dates and watch very closely for signs of cheapness, stinginess, or selfishness. No nice woman worth her salt needs to be with a man who is two-faced, i.e. superfically “nice” to someone he’s trying to date, but rude or unappreciative of someone who’s just doing their job. Take her to a place where you won’t wince at the prices, and then enjoy yourself fully! She’ll pick up on your relaxation and confidence, and you’ll both have a better time together.
I personally find men who work, save, and have their act together financially VERY attractive–it speaks of the man’s character, maturity, steadfastness, ability to commit and make sacrifices, ambition, confidence, and dedication to a healthy, happy life. DEFINITELY marriage material there, guys, and lots of fun on the hot road to the chapel! Good luck!
Great post and comments!
I’ve read through the first 80 or so, and one thing I never saw mentioned is fitness. Being in shape goes a long way towards satisfying a woman’s superficial needs/inclinations. “Fit” can be trim or ripped, whatever you (or your “type”) favors.
It evens the playing field quite substantially.
Good point, sherwood! and being fit is frugal in the long term of course!
To find the mate that suits your lifestyle, then just do the things you like, and date the people you meet while doing so.
If you like shopping in thrift stores, and eating al fresco at the park, and driving a car that you can service yourself, then be looking for women in the thrift stores, the park,and standing in line at the auto parts store.
while going through my divorce, I took up car-care. I went to the auto parts store and bought an air filter instead of letting the guys at the oil change place do it (hey, it was all new to me, and disposing of used oil was not that easy back then) anyway, I noticed a lot of the men there popped the hoods on the car, replaced whatever bit needed replacing and discarded the garbage in the bin in front of the store. Hey, I thought, I can do that too.
So, while I was bending over the car, backside prominently displayed, I heard a guy whistle and say, “All that and fixes her own car too!” Admittedly, this comment could be seen as offensive and sexist, but at the time, it was just enough to begin moving my feelings about my impending singlehood from OH NO to OK!
Too bad for the guy that he said it as he was driving off. Probably married and regretting that his wife couldn’t keep up with me! But what I’m saying is, the places frugality takes you are the places to pick up the girls that appreciate it!
Jeff (#138) has a great tip that really makes sense to me.
“Meet for Happy Hours. I know restaurants that serve full meals for $2-5 after purchasing one drink. Usually leave fed & drank for $10.”
My problem is, me and my wife are young and really social. We go on big friday night pub/club nights, and end up sinking way too much.
We dont want to sacrifice our social life, so our aim is to go for a few drinks in the week, here and there, at happy hour. This way, we’ll feel like we’ve already been out a bit in the week, and we wont need a huge friday night to feel like we’ve seen everyone.
And if we invite people along, it doesnt seem strange if we dont go out at the weekend.
My secret is not for all- I just don’t have time to socialize, so it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. I work seven days a week at two different jobs. I purchase name-brand used clothing second-hand when old items become too ratty, but still wear a lot of the clothes my parents bought me when I was in high school (my oldest still-in-rotation item is a 14 year old top bought at Kmart). My yearly clothing/shoe budget is about $100 but I still look good. My husband and I bought a new car when we were first married, paid it off ASAP and have kept it up well. We’ve managed to get by with only this one car, which we are very proud of. We scan restaurant menus online, pick out what we would order if we went, and make it ourselves at home. For special ‘dates’ we even print up ‘tonight’s menu,’ dress extra nicely, light candles, put on dinner music, etc. I will say that my most extravagant (but still within reason) purchases are as gifts for family, but only those whom I maintain close relationships with.
Another way that I keep my spending in perspective is by figuring out how long it takes me to earn a dollar. Right now for me it is slightly under eleven minutes. So, even at the dollar store, I stand there and think, “Would I be willing to work for eleven minutes in exchange for this item?” If the answer is no, why am I buying it? For the way other people will perceive me if I have it? Ridiculous!
I have a fulltime job for the benefits as well as a defined benefit retirement. I have a business to accelerate the arrival of the time I can go live on a beach as well as pursuing several other things.
I want to be married, sure. I am looking for my very own Limberlost Angel. But from time to time I am going to be in beatup running shoes, a frayed T-shirt, and have not shaved for a couple of days. This is just the way it is and I make no apologies for it.
If such circumstances puts a woman off, hey, good for her. She has saved us both some trouble, LOL. It is not the end of the world. One thing my ex-wife taught me is that anyone can be replaced and THAT lesson is bone deep.
Do I have a 50″ screen TV? No. It pays me nothing. There is not one single item I can think of that, after having lusted after it for days or months or whatever, gave me anything like the satisfaction that I thought it would. It is just another paperweight no matter its supposed function. I buy only things that have a shot at PAYING ME. That way, if the car breaks down or the TV goes out (that I paid cash for) then I simply replace it and move on to the next thing.
Yes, I realize that I am acting/speaking out of bad experiences, but isn’t everyone focusing on this subject? There is nothing other than a modest house that I would consider financing. Paying interest is for fools, earning it is how you finally get your life back.
I used to hold a “Bring Your Own BBQ.” My friends would each bring part of the meal we’d then cook together. I would fill in whatever extras I thought we still needed. We always had plenty of food and plenty of fun. A volleyball net set up in the yard was an extra bonus.
The same thing can be done at a local beach or park. Makes for a nice double-date, too.
“Make her pay for the dates, make her buy you a car and keep the tank full, and have her put a down payment on a house …” Interesting advice, Frugal Bachelor. And what exactly does the woman get for her investment?
I hope she has her name only on the car and the house, so that when she’s tired of paying for HIS past mistakes - I gather that’s your reasoning? - she can chuck him out, and keep HER car and house.
This is an interesting discussion. It makes me remember back to when I was dating and the guy I was going out seemed cheap (which was a turnoff). Here’s my two cents:
1. Despite what some previous posters said, I think going Dutch on a first date is a no-no. I always hated it if a guy asked me out Dutch the first time; I thought it was tacky and cheap. I always wished they’d just asked me out for something they could afford, like ice cream or coffee.
2. Like the other posters said, make sure you are well-groomed and your items are well cared for. Again, this is a big indicator between frugal and cheap. A guy once asked me out and his car had no heat or de-icer. And this was in the middle of winter! This was not frugal– it was cheap or poor (neither being attractive).
3. Make sure you mix up the dates– don’t ask her to do the same inexpensive thing. I once dated a guy for a while who always asked me to go for walks (once for coffee). This was OK the first or second time, then I started to think he was poor. So be creative, mix it up, and occasionally throw in a nice meal (not expensive– just good quality. I love ethnic, which is often cheap, good and cool).
4. The one flower idea is great. The calling is great. Overall, niceness and showing genuine thought and caring wins over the kind of woman you’d want to attract.
When it comes to first impressions, I think apart from the grooming aspect that’s already been covered, it’s important to seem generous. Very few women find a cheap man attractive. But remember that generosity is not in the amount of money spent, it is in the spirit of how it’s spent. Be generous of spirit in your frugality (i.e. if you’re bringing ice cream for the park date, spring for Haagen Daaz, not the cheap store brand), and the right kind of woman will be impressed.
One more comment in reference to #117’s observation– I once brought some friends of mine to a family party. My uncle, in commenting on their attractiveness, had this to say: “Your friends have nice smiles. EXPENSIVE smiles.” I thought this just about summed it up!
My ex was a big spender who showered me with flowers, jewelry, trips, expensive dinners, etc. However, it was all very insincere and just covered up a lot of his own insecurities and shortcomings. When I began dating again, I was wary of guys who wanted to be flashy because I felt they were trying to buy my affection. My new boyfriend is frugal, and I could see that he bought quality things but was a bargain hunter. He NEVER came across cheap - just smart. The first gift he ever gave me was a special piece of tupperware that he found at Wal-Mart. He knew I needed something like it for packing my lunch at the office. That meant more to me than 10 dozen roses!