I’ve been stewing over something for the past few days, and I’m finally ready to write about it.
I’m not a fan of judging others and their actions. Like Atticus Finch, I believe you never really know a person until you stand in their shoes and walk around in them. But I’m human. Like everyone, there are times I can’t help passing judgment. And although I know that judging others isn’t productive, sometimes I’m at a loss to do anything else.
Rock bottom
I had dinner with my buddy Michael last week. Michael’s moving back to Portland after several years away, and his financial life is a mess. He’s had a rough couple of years:
- He lost his home to foreclosure.
- He lost his job.
- His wife is out of work, too.
- And, last month, Michael filed for bankruptcy.
Not all of Michael’s problems are due to the economy. He’s brought plenty of woe upon himself due to a typical consumer lifestyle. He knows that.
Over a meal of southern-style fried chicken — my treat — we talked a lot about his financial situation. We’ve chatted some in the past, but I never feel like what I say makes much of an impact. I don’t want to be too pushy, for one thing, but I also get the impression that Michael isn’t ready to hear the message. Now, however, that may be changing. He has a haunting, hunted look about him.
Michael told me about the mistakes he’s made and the lessons he’s learned. He also confessed that he borrowed money from a family member, but had never repaid the loan. “It tears me up inside,” he said. “I feel so guilty.” Once he gets everything worked out, his goal is to pay that money back as soon as possible.
Michael explained how he’s hoping to set up a budget; he wants to set money aside for things before buying them. “Plus, I want to pay myself first,” he told me. “I’ve been reading about saving. I want to open a savings account and set aside $400 per month. My wife thinks we should use the money for other stuff, but I really think we should save.”
Old habits
Because Michael is a good friend, I want to help him and his family. (Michael and his wife have two kids.) I’ve been watching for cheap rentals in the Portland area, and even found a house where he could stay for $500 a month (which is incredibly cheap). There are some drawbacks to the place, and I wouldn’t suggest that he and his family stay there long term, but it’d be an awesome temporary home be while they get back on their feet.
“Thanks for finding that place,” Michael told me as he took a bite of mashed potatoes and gravy. “But we’ve decided to rent someplace else. We found a place in Rock Creek for $1300 a month.”
“Wow,” I said. “That seems like a lot.”
“Not really,” he said. “That’s pretty good for similar places in Portland. Plus, it gives us space for our two dogs.”
I sighed inside. Sure, that may be a good price compared to similar houses, but I know there are tons of places to live in Portland for less than $1300 a month — if Michael and his wife are willing to make some sacrifices. I wanted to pursue this line of questioning — What about getting rid of the dogs? Why not look at the $500/month place I found? — but I let it go. You can only argue with your friends so much, right? We moved on to other topics.
Michael mentioned that although his wife is still looking for work, he’s managed to find a job. (He was vague about what the work entailed and how much it paid.) He even has transportation. “I’m borrowing an old beater until I have a chance to buy a new car,” he told me. Michael’s last vehicle belonged to his employer, so he came to town not only homeless and jobless, but carless as well.
“You might want to wait to buy a new car until you’re more sure of your situation,” I said. “There’s nothing wrong with driving an old beater. Heck, where you’ll be living, you could ride the light rail into work.”
“I hadn’t thought of that,” Michael said. And from the way he said it, I could tell he still wasn’t thinking of it. In his mind, he needs a car — and a new one, too.
Further to fall
Before we parted ways, Michael gave me his new cell phone number. “What happened to your old phone?” I asked.
“It was the company’s. I had to give it back,” he said.
“That makes sense,” I said. “What did you get instead? Did you go with a prepaid phone? That’s a great way to save money.”
Michael evaded the question, but when we stood up to leave, I noticed the phone hanging from his belt clip: a brand-new iPhone. Later I learned from a mutual friend that Michael didn’t just buy a new iPhone for himself, but he bought one for his wife and for his 11-year-old son as well. (And he bought his 9-year-old son an iPod Touch so he wouldn’t feel left out.)
This is the part of the story where you now have to imagine a little black squiggle hanging over my head, like in the comic strips. This is the point at which I go from being sympathetic for my friend to judging him — and not favorably.
The mote in my eye
But as I began to silently judge Michael’s choices, I thought of my recent trip to Alaska. I spent ten days on the boat with my neighbor, the “real millionaire next door“, and in those ten days I often felt like I was being judged.
- Before the trip, I bought a $120 backpack at REI. My goal is to use this for much of my travel during the coming years. It fits in an overhead compartment, and is a great way to limit what I carry. John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
- On the first day, Mac and I tore a paper towel in half, and we each used our half as a napkin for several days. Eventually my napkin became grimy and gross, so I went to tear off another half a paper towel. When John saw me, he scolded me and told me I ought to use a cloth towel instead.
- Near the end of the trip, I threw a molding orange overboard. “I wish you hadn’t done that,” John said. “I could have cut out the bad part and eaten the rest.”
- On the last day, I went to the bookstore in Sitka and bought a copy of Bruce Chatwin’s In Patagonia, which I’ve been wanting to read for a long time. (After our trip to France and Italy this year, Kris and I hope to save for a trip to Argentina and Chile in 2012 or 2013.) When John saw I’d bought a new book, he shook his head. “I’ve got a lot of perfectly good books here on board,” he said, indicating his library of old paperbacks.
Throughout the trip, I felt like I was under pressure to, well, be more frugal, to make the same choices John would make. And you know what? That pressure sucked. It felt awful. I didn’t like the feeling of being judged, especially by somebody I look up to.
To judge, or not to judge?
So, I’m torn. As much as I hate to judge others, sometimes I can’t help it — and now I’m judging Michael. He says he wants to change, he says he’s learned his lesson from his bankruptcy, but his actions say otherwise.
He has no savings, no car, no home. His wife is out of work, and he’s only just started a new job himself. Yet he’s decided to rent a $1300 house, is looking to buy a new car, and has signed up for at least $180/month in cell phones. (I’m ignoring the start-up costs of the phones.) These are just the things I know about. Michael is talking the talk, but he’s not walking the walk. (I’m reminded of a previous conversation with another friend.)
I know how tough it can be to change your behavior. I’ve been there before. I used to talk about changing, too, without making any actual change. I’m sure my friends just shook their heads at me. (In fact, I know that some of my friends used to wonder at my foolish choices — they’ve told me so.)
I hope Michael turns things around, but I can’t help but judge his actions right now. And I don’t know how to help him.
Footnote #2: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
This article is about Choices, Debt, Real-Life, Relationships Wednesday, 2nd June 2010 (by J.D. Roth)


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Gosh, that’s a tough one.
I see your situation and your friend’s situation as two entirely different things. Perhaps your neighbor’s comments would be justified if you were in financial trouble or were being irresponsible, but the fact of the matter is that you’re not.
So, I’d be inclined to say something to your friend but not to you.
In either situation, though, I think care needs to be taken when it comes to HOW something is said. From what you’ve said, it sounds like your neighbor offered his comments in a judgemental way that was lacking in humility. It didn’t sound like it came from a heart that wanted to help you, but instead from a heart that wanted to criticize you.
This is a universal issue.
There are always people doing ‘better’ than us at saving, scrimping, investing and making money. There are always people doing worse. It’s so easy to judge and be judged.
One thing I didn’t see was your friend asking for help - which makes me think he’s still not ready. But he may not be ready until he truly hits rock bottom. (funny - I thought the court took away credit cards and such when people filed bankruptcy, hmmm). If you haven’t already gone there, I suppose you could identify 2 or 3 BIG picture things you’d be willing to help him with (e.g., help him sit down and figure out a budget or help him define his values and how they should govern his financial decisions. or helping him throw away his book ;)) Then, rather than evaluating the individual items of his expenses, you could simply put the offer of big picture assistance out there and give him the opportunity to accept - or not. You could also invite him to spend a little time with you to observe how you and Kris live and how you make financial choices through the day.
Of course, sometimes the only teacher is experience. It’s tough to see our friends (and relatives!) make the mistakes we’ve made, but sometimes that’s the only way they’ll figure things out.
Sounds like your neighbor is a cheapo. I’d rather be debt-free, happy, and able spend consciously than to be a millionaire living like a pauper.
I don’t think you should feel too guilty for “judging” your friend. I would have told him straight-up (but not in an insulting or condescending way) how I felt about his bad financial habits and what he could do to change. He might not take your advice but at least you would have told him exactly how you felt.
Your neighbor apparently lives a life of extreme frugality. He already has millions saved- I don’t see the harm in spending some of your hard earned money. Like the saying goes, “You can’t take it with you” - so you better enjoy some of it. You’re not in financial trouble so the chastising from your neighbor was unnecessary. You’ll use the backpack and learn from your book.
what’s missing from the picture are his goals. Like with anybody, you need a goal to strive for.
If your friend has a goal to pay off debt, perhaps he’ll be mroe conscious of his consumer choices.
Having your friend set a goal and having you follow up on how he is acheiving his goal is a better approach than asking the questiong “why are you buying such and such?”
You can’t help Michael.
I have a friend in the same situation and although he says he wants to change, he doesn’t mean it. He can’t afford to pay his bankruptcy lawyer the $750 to start proceedings. Another friend, he and I go out to dinner once a month, and he puts his share on his card (not sure if it’s prepaid or not, and don’t really care), and my other friend and I put ours on our cards. I would never offer to treat him. Rich people save their money, poor people treat everyone.
Michael’s thought process is similar to a drug addict. They know what to say and whom to say it, but until THEY want to change their situation, nothing you can say will help them.
Save your energy and fight a different battle. Good post today.
There is one glaring difference in my opinion between the two situations. Michael NEEDS to change. That lifestyle will ruin him and his family. If you were to live even more frugally it would be by CHOICE. You don’t really NEED to save more whereas Michael most definitely does.
I’m in the same situation with a girl getting married a few months after me. We have made every effort to save money for our wedding and are paying for everything with cash. My acquaintance doesn’t have two dollars to rub together and speaks of saving money but never seems to. She also has a brand new iphone! At the beginning I passed along money saving tips I had found but now I just avoid all talk of it since it seems to make me enjoy my planning less. I feel terrible no matter what I do so now I just ignore it…
The millionaire next door sounds very judgmental and not someone I would like to travel with. As long as your decisions do not negatively impact your life - everyone has different goals and what they do with their money is their business. Your other friend might learn, but will more likely file for bankruptcy again without ever paying back his family member. I doubt saying anything would change him - so I would keep my mouth shut - but he definitely is wrong, a liar and a cheat (he can’t be that torn up over the loan, if he is buying new iPhones for his family).
“During dinner, Michael told me that he’s been reading personal-books.”
Since he has already brought up this subject, this would be a good opportunity for you to pass along one or two of your favorite personal finance books that you feel might be better in helping Michael learn to manage his money.
lostAnnfound beat me to it! Perfect opening to lend him “The Millionaire Next Door.” Not sure he’s ready for YMOYL yet…
Great, thought provoking post.
I disagree with the idea that you can’t help your friend. I do agree that you can’t fix his problems for him.
Your journey to financial responsibility was a long process. You knew you needed to change, but it took awhile for the light to come on as to what change really meant. It may take awhile for your friend as well, and I know it is frustrating that the light is not coming on for him. You can’t always bring someone around to the truth over a single fried chicken dinner.
That’s sad. I agree with a previous commenter that the ‘I’m torn up about the loan I never paid back’ is probably a lot of lip service (both to you and even to himself) since I’d bet that a good chunk of whatever he owes could have been paid back by not having iPhones.
Sheesh, it’s stories like this that make you realize that as much progress as we might be making on trying to get out of the debt cycle, we can only go so far. People just don’t get it.
I’m with you…except for the part where you suggest him “getting rid of” his dogs. Pets are a commitment. You don’t ‘get rid’ of them the same way you do an object.
How could you think of suggesting he get rid of the dogs? The other things, fine, but once you have a pet you have made a commitment, in my opinion, anyway. I’m sorry to be harsh, but I think it’s an irresponsible thing to even voice on this blog, especially so cavalierly in just a passing sentence. Newspapers have been full of stories over the last couple of years about the uptick in animals being dropped off at shelters and killed. I thought you were a pet lover so I’m surprised and disappointed.
The first thing I did was go to the restaurant link you posted and judge your tab at eating out instead of making some scrumptious chicken at home. Then, I finished reading the article.
Hey - I read this blog, would you expect any less?
As a culture, we frown on “judging” in any form yet we have more lawyers and judges than we know what to do with. Everyone has an opinion. It will be interesting to watch the comments to see how people react to your judgement of your friend (I predict 99% will support you and your handling of the situation) and how they react to your neighbors judgement of you (Again I predict 99% will be against him).
You should not feel guitly for wincing at the new gadgets your friend has or the new car that he wants. You know that, given what your know of your friend’s circumstances, those are probably not good choices. From your own experience you are in a position to make a judgement based on the facts presented. By living on both sides you have become somewhat of an authority on the subject of personal finance and of getting out of debt and staying out of debt. From this position of authority you have the ability to show grace to your friend. You can offer your life as an example. You can offer advice if he asks. You cannot change your friend. There is no single piece of advice that you can give him that will revolutionize his life. Your example and humility will draw him to ask questions when he is ready.
These are hard words to live by. My natural tendency is to offer my opinion when I think it’s warrented. (In reality I’m doing it now though I think you are genuinely looking for responses.) I have a similar situation with a person that is struggling as well. I’ve offered advice and that has caused the relationship stress. It’s still hard to not give my opinion when, in my mind, it’s the exact thing they need to hear.
You can make a judgement based on what you know about the choices a person makes. You cannot judge whether a person is ready for the advice you want to give. Live by example and show him kindness and grace that extends throughout his life.
Also, concerning peachy’s comment:
Rich people save money; poor people do not. Rich people give money on their own terms and for intentional reasons. Poor people give money away and don’t know where it went. You will not be rich if you do not give.
Good luck to you and your friend.
I think ditching the dogs is a valid option - they are a luxury expense, and they also have the potential to cost you a ton of money at a moments notice (i.e. emergency vet bills).
You’re right JD, this guy doesn’t want to change things, he wants everything to be fixed for him (and by fixed, he wants himself and his wife to get great paying jobs so they don’t have to change a thing about their lifestyle). I wouldn’t waste your breath, he will likely just resent anything you have to offer at this point.
Using half of a paper towel for a few days? That is a little bit extreme, I don’t think you should have had to explain yourself for throwing away a greasy scrap of paper.
You should view your time with John as a sociological observation - don’t take it personally when he makes comments like that, just try to understand his perspective (don’t be afraid to stick up for yourself either, folks like that usually appreciate a good debate)
You can’t just ‘get rid of’ dogs. They are living, feeling, thinking things, not an object you own until its inconvenient. All a dog wants is to be part of a pack. To expel him from the pack, because you are having financial difficulties is a horrible thing to do.
If he wants to save money, maybe he should consider getting rid of his wife and kids instead, they are much more expensive to keep. Yes, I know that is ridiculous. But its the same thing. Dogs are not possessions, they are part of the family.
Always judge the action, never judge the person. That’s my rule.
It is impossible to make intelligent decisions without judging. All thought follows from judgments. Is this right? Is this wrong? Everything you decide follows from good or bad judgments. What to eat, what to drive, what to wear, what to do, what to say, on and on.
But, no, you cannot judge the person. Because you don’t know what they were able to learn from their past experiences. And you do not ever know what is in the other person’s heart. A person can do an objectively stupid and horrible thing for reasons that make subjective sense to him.
This is why Jesus said from the cross: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” He wasn’t saying that the soldiers who put him on the cross were doing the right thing. He was saying that they didn’t get it. All of us are guilty of not getting it re a good number of important things. There is not one exception to this rule. We’re flawed creatures.
Rob
Your neighbour sounds like the judgemental type that I can’t stand. I have never once met a vocally self-righteous person (this seems a fitting description) who realised that their pride was at least as weighty as their own supposed virtue.
If your friend genuinely asks you for your advice and help - if he truly wants to know what you think because he thinks you can help him, then be honest and tell him about the things you noticed.
If he doesn’t ask for your help or advice, you can offer it, but don’t be pushy about it. Offer it once and if he doesn’t take you up on it, let it go.
Friends like that in my experience will never change. They will simply continue on and then eventually in my experience view you negatively for trying to help. I have learned to have very frank discussions about frugality. People are either on board or not and it seems to me he probably just liked talking about his problems to his friend who would listen which is fine but I have leared to now not get emotionally vested in anyone else’s issues.
Arg: I would argue that a mortgage is a commitment too, but that’s already been thrown away in this case as well.
JD: How about giving him a copy of your book?
I agree with JonasAberg in comment #6. It’s one thing to own an Iphone, new car, nice house, etc. when you have no significant debt, a big emergency fund, and are meeting your other financial goals. Your friend is no where near that point, it’s not judging, it’s seeing someone running full steam towards a cliff and debating whether or not to call out a warning because you’re thinking they’ve got to see the edge of the cliff, surely they’ll stop.
You’re millionaire next door friend has been living alone too long and has come to the conclusion his ways are the best ways, rather than his ways work best for him. When you’re frugal to the point of endangering your health, like eating rotted food or repeatedly reusing bacteria ladden paper or cloth towels, that’s gone too far for me personally. If it wipes an orifice, I don’t let it air dry and reuse it.
The book purchase I can see from his end as in you implied by buying new that none of the books he had were worth reading, rather than explaining to him you’d been looking to get a copy of that particular book for a while and were planning on buying it sometime anyway.
Its the same ol’ saw. What we do ourselves or think is okay is frugal, what others do that we wouldn’t want to do or we feel it’s going too far, is cheap. The problem is when you see someone like your friend, who talks about how they need to get better while cutting at their own wrists, and you can’t help them because they don’t want the help and would actually fight you off if you tried to help. Or the flip side where twenty plus years of habits can’t be changed even when there is no longer a need to maintain that habit, it’s frustrating. In the end you offer what help you can, accept that some folks have a different idea of frugality than yours, and as long as you’re meeting your goals, you don’t need to care about someone judging you.
It’s a GREAT question you are posing here. I was brought to my knees last year from debt and totally insufficient income. I’ve changed my ways, and it took the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University course to get the job done. I brought many guests to the course with me while I was in it. None of them enrolled in the course, but I’m clear that the introduction to it alone made a difference.
I will use a phrase from one of my good friends…you cannot pee for people. Someday, they will be brought to their knees just as I was. Everyone’s “rock bottom” is different. I remember that every time I’m judging someone. I haven’t walked a day in their shoes, and they certainly haven’t walked a day in mine.
Thanks for a great post. Best to you.
Your millionare next door sounds alot like the generation of adults raised during the great depression. Save everything, plus some. Do not take it personally that when he fusses at you for throwing away half a paper towel. You would have the same attitude if you saw someone fix a huge meal and then watched as they threw away all of the left overs. As for your friend, if you value your friendship you should probably not discuss finances unless he brings up the topic, and then only provide advice if he asks for it. Otherwise let him make his own bed.
You shouldn’t encourage him to ditch family members. I agree, it is like telling him to get rid of his kids because they are too expensive. Yes, dogs can be expensive, but you make a life long commitment to them. 3-4 million dogs and cats are euthanized in shelters every year because of irresponsible people. Please don’t encourage more people to make this decision.
JD, I wanted to make a point that you might not have noticed. On your trip with the RMND, he told you what he thought about your expensives point blank. When he felt you spent to much money on a backpack or a book he said something. When Michael spent to much on a iphone or rental place did you say something? Someone who cares about your financial health will say something.
I have a similiar friend with money problems. When she tells me about bad choices I say something. For example, “$500 on a bag, did you put that on a credit card?” Keep your comments without judgement but questioning decistions. Say something to a friend because they might not be thinking the same “frugal” way that you do.
I just wanted to make one comment about the dogs. I agree you should never get rid of your dogs, however if you could have a friend or family member care for them instead for a few months (maybe JD could offer) that is a good opition.
Great Post!
Sounds like your neighbor is a cheapo. I’d rather be debt-free, happy, and able spend consciously than to be a millionaire living like a pauper.
Seriously. I’m all for being frugal, but I’m not gonna be eating rotting fruit any time soon.
I am acquainted with someone who seems trapped in a cycle of poor financial decisions combined with self-sabotage when it comes to employment. I finally had to make a conscious decision to stop taking on any worry or concern about their choices, as I’d find myself getting worked up over a situation that I had little or no control over. It’s takes a lot of mental energy just to stay on top of my own situation–the last thing I need to do is start putting energy into trying to help someone who’s not even helping themselves. As a matter of fact, I won’t even begin to broach the subject with them until I see evidence that they are actually working hard to address the underlying issues.
As for the other situation with your neighbor, being the parent of an Aspergers’ child, I’ve come to have a new appreciation for the fact that not everyone in the world is equally skilled in communicating gracefully with others. I’m not suggesting that one needs to submit to a non stop barrage of criticism, but if you know someone who’s otherwise a great person, and they are just blunt or brusque with their opinions at times, then perhaps they are just unaware of the impact their choice of words may be having. There’s nothing wrong with saying to John “I know being frugal is very important to you, and I know you’re interested in showing me what you’ve learned, but sometimes when we’re on a different page from each other, when you point it out it feels more to me like you’re criticizing me than sharing your knowledge.”
I’ve learned over time that it’s best to mind your own business and lead by example.
For example, I have some friends who are in a financial mess. I also have some friends who are very responsible, too. I’ve talked about money with all of them. What’s interesting is that I’ve learned something from talking to both. But I don’t tell them that one way or another is “right”, just what worked for me.
It’s similar to dieting and exercise. I’ve lost 40 lbs and kept it off by tracking calories and changing my lifestyle. I still enjoy some sweets from time to time, but I’ve cut back drastically from what I used to consume. The only thing that made me do it was me. No one else can control what goes in my mouth, and no one else can make me exercise.
As for your friend Michael, he has to walk his own path. If you want to support him, that’s great, but realize that he will choose a different path that you did, and he will likely truly hit rock bottom at some point, which is unfortunate. The same thing happens all the time with people who eat too much and don’t exercise. Sometimes it takes a heart attack or trip to the hospital to realize that the life they are leading isn’t sustainable.
I would also concur that in a dire situation (which appears to be looming for Michael), anything is on the table to turn things around and some hard choices may need to be made, including finding somewhere else for his dogs to go. Who knows, maybe this will be the turning point for him and his first goal — perhaps he can leave the dogs with his parents, a sibling or a friend and can only get them back when his financial house is in order and seriously on the mend. If his kids and wife are attached to those dogs, it will be a daily reminder that they need to get their financial house in order, and a great goal to work towards.
I often find myself judging, although rarely voicing. In fact, over the weekend I managed to have a couple of arguments with my husband whom I love dearly (and who is not a spender by no means) for silly things like using a dryer and spending a few bucks at vending macine over the course of 2 weeks. Believe me, we are neither in debt, not struggle. We save a bunch and put away, and live comfortably. But like the dude on the boat, I often find where else it could have been saved (and yes, then drop a grand for a trip to a couple of races). So, about Michael…I would be afraid to say much at the dinner in fear to ruin the dinner. But as we part ways, i’d offer to sit down and chat, if he wants to. I don’t think he does. Honestly, weird considering his history…but then again, some take longer to learn, some never do. It’s just we always want to scream loud when it is obvious to US what to do.
As for pets - I can only imagine the comments from pet lovers. I believe since you got cats on your own and spend a bunch for them, you didn’t mean to have it in a “passing sentence”. But the idea has its merits. Probably not first on the list, not even second (far down from iPhones, big house for rent, new car and so on). I surely wouldn’t get a bigger house just to accomodate pets.
Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)? I’m betting they ‘love’ the owner who feeds them; do not confuse the ‘affection’ of your pet with real feelings…only humans have that capacity.
Nothing against animals, but family and people are more important. You can’t get rid of the kids (RELAX…it’s a joke, people!), but pets, unfortunately, are a luxury. BTW, we have two dogs.
Nice post, J.D.
It sucks even when people you don’t look up to clearly show their disapproval of your actions. The need for belonging and approval is strong in most people, and the hurt and anxiety of disapproval kick in even when we know, logically, we shouldn’t care.
The differences I see in the two scenarios above is that the first scenario seems to contain an element of asking for advice, and the advice-giver seems to have backed off when he started getting signals that the advice wasn’t wanted (Michael didn’t want the cheaper house, started shying away from financial questions, etc.) The second scenario seems to consist of unasked-for advice that may have continued despite any signals JD might have given John to back off. There can be several reasons for John’s behavior:
1. JD has treated John as a source of financial information in the past (i.e., the interview for this blog), and John may now regard his role with JD as permanent giver of advice.
2. JD may not have given John clear signals to back off when the criticism started to hurt, or John didn’t get the signals JD was sending.
3. John may have consciously or unconsciously gotten competitive with JD, and decided to teach this young, so-called finance guru a thing or two about how real savers live. (I stress that this may have been unconscious — we all act like asses occasionally and don’t really know why.)
4. John may be an angry, tightly-wound person who finds it difficult to stop himself from commenting when someone does something differently from how he would do it. He may be beating himself up about it now, wishing he could develop the ability to play it a little cooler. (Welcome to my life!)
My point is, we don’t know why John made several comments about JD’s lack of frugality — he may have done it for all the right reasons, and it just came out as graceless. But, JD, you seem to have avoided doing the same thing to Michael while at the same time retaining your liking for John. So your uncomfortable moments with John in Alaska, and the time you spent analyzing your emotional reaction to those moments, have helped you to become a more compassionate, Atticus-like man. And that’s a good thing. Excellent, really.
First of all, I don’t think John was ‘judging’ you. More likely he was pointing out things that, to him, seem like waste and making suggestions for alternatives.
I’m assuming that he knows that you respect the choices he has made and admire his lot in life? If so, it’s perfectly sensible that he’d try to drop a few words from his store of canniness - he no doubt sees himself as something of a mentor. This is no bad thing, wish I knew someone like him.
I’m not entirely convinced that some of the people criticising him in their posts are in a position to make assumptions that he’s some sort of stereotypical greedy skinflint.
As for Michael, he has to realise how bad things can get for himself. No amount of well meant hints and tips will interest someone who remains hypnotised by the dizzy whirl of consumerism.
I’ve gone through a similar thing with my elder brother (thankfully he’s in a better state than Michael) and he’s just not interested!
J.D., if you’re honest, as well as being concerned for a friend, is there an element of you wanting to make up for your past financial errors by vicariously sorting out Michael?
I don’t think John is a skinflint. I just think he’s very very frugal, and that frugality has been successful for him. But, at the same time, I’m frugal too. But John and I are just frugal in different ways. (I’ll never own a boat, for example.) I think there are things that I could learn from him still, but I don’t see the point in foregoing half a paper towel.
As for the dogs, I think some of you are missing the forest for the trees. I love animals, and I’m all for being responsible to the pets you choose to keep. But when you’re in dire circumstances, you may not be able to keep them. You may have to look at other options.
UPDATE: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
It’s frustrating to talk to people like this. Many times they seek out people (like us savers) for advice on how to get their lives on the right track financially, yet they aren’t willing to control their finances and basically have some self control. In my line of work I see women on welfare complaining about how hard it is to live. But, they have the fake fingernails, trendy new clothes and $1K purses! They aren’t ready to listen.
One more thing. KEEP THE DOGS! They provide a great deal of happiness in our lives and ask for very little.
Get rid of the dogs? Seriously? Get rid of the fancy phones first. Dogs are members of the family, devoted, loving members of the pack who’d lay down their lives for you, all for the price of a bit of kibble and a warm place to sleep, a pat on the head, and some excercise each day.
And what would that teach his boys? That when a beloved family member is inconvenient or expensive, we just get rid of it, to an almost certain death? Kids generalize… and it’s not too much of a leap for kids to think, gee, what happens if I get to be too inconvenient or inexpensive… plus kids have a unique bond… how’s a kid going to react to having it’s pets yanked away to an almost certain death because it’s too expensive, while dad’s playing with his fancy new i-phone and financing his new car?
No, there’s lots of things to cut before you cut out the dog. Dogs don’t need a big house. In fact, they’re happier in closer quarters with their families.
I was surprised at your get rid of the dogs suggestion. True - it may be necessary to find homes for pets in a dire situation. In this situation, however, the iphones and new car should be sacrificed before a pet. When someone gets a pet - it is a commitment that should be honored if at all possible. Too often people think of pets as disposable and I think that is extremely unfortunate (and says a lot about our society).
Hi, J.D.,
What an interesting and thought-provoking piece. It is interesting to me that your thoughts today are based on the Bible. In fact, both the judge not and the mote ideas are from Matthew 7. What interests me most is that many people live by the judge not saying (and most of us without knowing where it comes from!).
What we need to realize is that shortly after saying not to judge lest we be judged with the same yardstick, Jesus says to cast out the mote in our own eye in order to see clearly enough to help remove the speck from another’s eye.
In other words, we are supposed to continually work at becoming better people for the express purpose of helping others become better. It seems to me that in the issue of finances, you have done an amazing job of working hard at getting out of debt, understanding wise principles to live by and helping others to understand how to do the same.
In my opinion, you are not judging when you see that your friend is not following a wise financial path. You’ve done the work, you have a clear eye and now you have a responsibility to help him see his way clear to a wiser lifestyle.
As to millionaire friend, I think it is also related. Proverbs says open rebuke is better than concealed love and the wounds of a friend are faithful.
Your millionaire friend, whether too extreme or not, was trying to be faithful to you in pointing out what he considered your wastefulness. Sure, it was uncomfortable, but it made you think. Now you can decide where you draw the line on frugal.
The question is, did you do the same for Michael? Did you make him uncomfortable enough to think things through? We all have Michaels in our lives in one way or another. Some want advice, some want lip service, some want to hear themselves talk, but a faithful friend will lay it out clearly.
Hope this gives a little perspective.
So I’m not the only one with friends like this. We have some friends who went overboard building a new house, constantly have to have every new consumer electronic, have a large library of video games and DVDs, and are drowning. He is working 2 part-time jobs in addition to his full-time job. She is doing a couple of (legit) work-at-home jobs. And, even though my wife and I have done budget counseling with them, they will not change their spending habits. They truly believe they are under-deposited and not over-drawn.
I do agree with the above commenters that getting rid of the dogs is not a priority. Dogs are a commitment that should not be taken lightly or trivialized by getting rid of them to pay for luxuries.
This is a really interesting and intelligent post. Thanks! I would like to suggest two things that I did not see in the comments so far.
1) Regarding Michael, making bad decisions is its own punishment in life (just as making good decisions is its own reward). In other words, Michael’s decisions are already making his life miserable, so there is no reason for you to make it worse by being judgmental towards him.
It seems pretty clear that he suffers from an addiction to material consumption. I doubt that you can help any addict by telling him that he is making bad decisions. He already knows it; he just don’t know how to stop. Imagine that Michael had an addiction to alcohol or cigarettes or gambling or drugs. What would you do then? Being judgmental probably would not help.
2) Regarding John, maybe you should be judgmental toward him! He sounds like a jerk. From what you described, I would say he suffer from the opposite addiction to Michael. Michael is addicted to buying whereas John is addicted to saving. Neither person knows how to deal with money successfully, and as a result they have sacrificed their freedom, their intelligence, and their ability to have compassionate relationships.
I think that both men are suffering under very heavy psychological burdens that are making their lives much less fulfilling and less joyful than they could be. Michael and John don’t need to be judged by you; they need your sympathy and support instead. But, seriously, I wouldn’t go on vacation (or even out to dinner) with either one. I would make it clear that you want to offer your help when they are ready to take it; but then I would stop enabling their harmful behavior.
Sorry, but dogs are like kids, you can’t just get rid of them in hard times. Certainly, you shouldn’t take on dogs when you’re not financially able to (and similarly, you should do your utmost to not have kids when you can’t support them). If you’ve already got dogs when the financial hard times hit, well then too bad, they’re still your responsibility. You can’t get rid of the kids, can’t get rid of the dogs. No real pet owner would want to, either.
I think it’s great your friend feels open enough to talk about his situation with you - that’s step #1 in my opinion. And he’s reading personal finance books - I’d suggest a few for him to read. After that his actions have to be his own without comment unless he asks for advice or your opinion. Peoples spending habits are very personal and something that means nothing to you and is a waste of money might be his most important thing.
It’s the same with people that have no hobbies, don’t read unless they have to and I have to wonder what the heck they do when they get home from work - mostly they watch tv. I personally find that a total and complete waste of time, but people are emotionally invested in “their shows”, and have no idea how to relate to me having no cable or network stations at all.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with judging - it’s pretty hard not to. However, I think keeping your opinions to yourself is the right thing to do.
I have a family member who sounds like Michael - I’d love to help but any conversations about money go nowhere fast.
Bottom line is that you have to let people find their own way.
I know a lot of people who whine about their financial situation and my offer to help is very precise. I say that I have a system (the envelope system) and I could show them how it works. They can try it out for 14 days and if it’s not for them, then 14 days is not a huge time investment.
And then I say nothing. I put the ball in their court. I never pester or follow up or preach. If the person is interested or serious about fixing their finances, they will follow up with me. I don’t stress out if they don’t follow up. It just means they aren’t ready.
For the record, nobody has followed up with me in the 10 years I have been using the envelope system. Oh but they still whine about they money woes and I continue to feed my retirement fund, savings and new car in 2017 fund. Oh yeah, I am totally smug about it, but I hide it well.
FINALLY, someone else who thinks Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad, Poor Dad is a terrible book. Somebody’s gettin’ rich all right, but it’s certainly NOT his readers.
What’s amazing to me is that in this case you HAVE been in Michael’s shoes, and yet you are still judging him. Stop it. Really. It just makes you sound like a a jerk.
Most of your readers have read your stories — we know you were still buying CDs and comic books when you had loads of debt. It took you years for things to really click and for you to make big changes. And remember, when you hit your hardest times, you were lucky that it was times of general economic prosperity AND you had a family business that kept you employed. Without those factors, you could easily have been unemployed and filing for bankruptcy.
This isn’t about Michael, it’s about you. If you really want to be a personal finance guru (and in many ways, you already are) you are going to have to remember what it’s like to be in over your head but clinging to the belief that it’s really not that bad. And you are going to have to find ways of helping people in whatever form they are able to accept. In this case it’s encouraging him to follow through on his savings account idea, maybe even sitting down with him as he opens it and sets up automatic transfers. Maybe once he sees that working he’ll be ready for a debt snowball or another idea.
Remember, JD, it’s easy to preach to the choir. You can be the guy that helps people go from middle of the road finances to millionaires next door. But if you really want to change people’s lives, you need to learn to support your friends and readers even if they haven’t figured it all out yet. Eventually, it’ll click for Michael, and it’ll be a lot better for both of you if you haven’t completely alienated him by the time it does.
Another bad sign is a financially challenged person reading “The Secret”.
Regarding the dogs, I’ll share one of my favorite tools that I use when dealing with a design problem, or any problem for that matter. Generally when faced with a problem, people will come up some solution to a problem and then think that’s the only way — they quite literally fall in love with their first idea and then stick with it. The exercise is to come up with at least three ways of accomplishing the same goal.
So in Michael’s situation, he could have a lot of starting points to his problem of “saving money” or “getting my spending under control”:
- Dropping the iPhones
- Live somewhere cheaper
- Cut cable tv
- Find a temporary home for the dogs
- Find a permanent home for the dogs
- Find a cheap way to get to work
And on and on. The next stage is to attach dollar values and priorities to these items and then start working the list. We don’t know Michael’s whole situation, either. Perhaps the place he chose to rent puts him in immediate proximity to family or friends who can provide childcare so his wife can work, or maybe it’s close to a lot of places his wife could get a job and the other place wasn’t. Maybe Michael was doing a favor for someone and watching the dogs … and that favor has now become a burden that’s too heavy to bear. Perhaps he is a iPhone developer and needs at least one. Who knows, every life is different and we can’t judge based on a few sentences in a blog post.
I’m also fairly sure that the boat trip was full of a lot more than just grousing about paper towels and oranges, too — I’m sure a lot of fun was had and it was a mostly pleasant experience, that can’t be judged on a few examples.
There is a time and place for Dave Ramsey, and it sounds like your friend Michael is it. He needs a drill sargeant yelling at him for every stupid decision he makes until he wakes up this is his life and his family’s life his is messing up. A drug addict is a very good analogy.
OTOH John’s actions do not bother me, because his actions follow his words. We have friends who are extremely frugal, much more than we are. I always enjoy going over to their house and seeing how they live. I may not decide to follow all their choices, but it definitely opens me up to possibilities, options I might not have even thought of.
Love the footnote.
George Carlin used to have a bit about driving. Everyone that drove slower than him was a (moron) and everyone who drove faster was a maniac. I guess it’s the same with personal finance, and this post points it out well. Everyone needs to find his own financial balance. Hitting rock-bottom (or conversely, hitting the sky with a lot of wealth) is the only way some people are going to move their personal fulcrum to change that balance point.
Whoa, there’s a physics metaphor taken too far!
You need to let your friend find his way. It’s unfortunate that he’s chosen to buy iPhones for his family (and the iTouch), but it’s a VERY clear sign that he isn’t ready to change how he thinks about money. I’d leave it at you offering to lend him any book from your excellent PF library. I’d suggest he read this blog, but I don’t think he’s there yet. If his was one of the reader stories, I don’t think your request to be kind would go far. Stories like this are *very* frustrating.
Regarding your neighbor, well, he got where he is by being who he is, and part of that is why you like him. So file it away. Maybe next time you’ll go to a used bookstore, if you want. Or don’t! It’s up to you
To each his own. You can give your opinion but it will only have an effect if people want it, otherwise your just slinging mud against a wall to see if some will stick. We all have areas we can improve upon and in relationships some can be better than others. Your friend Michael reminds me of my sister who hit bottom a while ago and still spends money that she doesn’t have and she will never learn. Your friend John reminds of what I could become if I wasn’t married to my wife who keeps me from the frugal darkside. I stay frugal and maximize savings in many ways but not so much that I am eating other peoples fruit leftovers.
@Karen — did you read the last four paragraphs? I think J.D. knows he has already walked this path and doesn’t want to judge.
I think it was a very well written and thought provoking piece. I visualize it as J.D. climbing a mountain, with the millionaire guy at the top wearing nothing but a loincloth, J.D. somewhere on the middle with his trim new pack, and Michael at the bottom carrying everything but the kitchen sink. J.D. wants to get up to that perch, but isn’t so sure about the loincloth, but he knows for darn sure that Michael is not going to get up that mountain without dropping some stuff — but he is still attached to it. He wants to help his friend up the mountain, but his friend has to be willing to change something he’s packing to do so.
JD, you are absolutely correct in your exasperation. But as you mention, being judged sucks.
If I were in your shoes, my judgments would be declared to my SO, but not to Michael. Even with the personal finance equivalent of crashing the car into the ditch, his actions are saying he still isn’t ready to receive wisdom. He wants to get back into a shiny new car and speed down the Consumer Highway again.
You have to step back and remember that you had to come to your realizations on your own. So too with Michael. It will be painful to watch, but for some people Hard Knocks is the only school that they will learn from.
Finally, Kiyozaki (”Rich Dad, Poor Dad” author) has yet to pen a book of non-fiction. His books are a get rich quick scheme. For him, not his readers.
J.D.,
Great column.
Katy
Michael asked for your advice/perspective. You did not ask John for his advice about backpacks or paper towels. Also, by any reasonable standard, Michael is being unreasonable and probably also unethical. You were not acting similarly on the boat. Most importantly, Michael just used our country’s court system to legally ditch all of his debts and leave his creditors with nothing. You didn’t choose to do something like that. So, judge away! Sometimes it’s hard not not.
Also, pets are a lifetime commitment that should not be “gotten rid of” when they become inconvenient. The pet didn’t choose for you to adopt or buy it. You decided to be its caretaker until it does. I’d choose to cut any other area of my life - cell phone, other technology, going out, housing, etc. - before I would give up my cats or any other animal I had.
Finally, I am often generally stumped by this “no judging” thing. I get that it’s a worthy goal in many situations. But in other situations, go ahead and judge! We humans engage in plenty of behaviors that are outright immoral, stupid, irresponsible, illegal, etc. Not sure when we decided that “judging” isn’t allowed. I judge people who are violent, I judge people who commit bank fraud, and I’m fine with judging someone who bankrupts on all of his creditors while continuing to indulge in new luxuries that he can’t afford and might bankrupt on again one day.
Dan #52 — great George Carlin reference and definitely applicable here.
JD,
Please don’t suggest “get rid of the dogs”. My husband and I are saddened by people putting their dogs on Craig’s List for sale or free. I understand there are some circumstances when you have to, but dogs deserve to be loved too. I would not say to you “do you really need 4 cats?” or “get rid of your cats”. (Not sure how many you have now).
…and you live in Portland where even homeless people have dogs! They can “afford” it.
As for judging Michael, you tried to help him but if he is not ready to change, he won’t. On the other hand, we judge people by our standards but forget that “do what works for you” still applies. When we first moved here, we were both unemployed too. I bought a $400 suit and my husband could not accept it. I used that suit to get a job within 2 weeks!!! The suit was paid for many times over.
I think it s never ok to judge someone else because you might be in that persons situation one day
OMG, I have been wanting to comment on this topic for 2 days but haven’t had an opportunity. Time has passed so the need to rant on the specific situation has diminished. But I can see how this post generated >60 comments before I woke up.
In general though, what bothers me is this:
If you’re screwing yourself over and you’re not going to do anything to help yourself and you’re going to get belligerent when people offer advice… then SHUT UP. I don’t want to hear about it!
Now for the rant: Don’t complain to me about how hard it is to live in LA on less than 10K/month when the only reason it’s so difficult is because you have a huge self-imposed debt burden that you’re servicing rather than paying down, you travel 5 star 2-3 times per year, you have a shoe fetish, you lease luxury cars, and you’re terrified of learning how to figure out how to do the math for even a 20% tip. Don’t complain about how you can’t possibly quit the job you hate. Don’t get angry when someone gently suggests reading Your Money or Your Life to help you think about the issues of life balance you’ve been constantly complaining about (not even Total Money Makeover or The Millionaire Next Door, which we secretly think you need). Those of us who live very comfortable lifestyles on far less don’t want to hear it. Those of us who know people who are actually suffering and who worry about all the kids whose food and medical is going to get cut in the next CA budget… really just could not care less about your situation unless you decide to do something to change it. Hoo. Thank you.
And, it chaps my hide the way that all the middle class folks just say, “Oh, you poor thing, I understand how your spending and fixed expenses always grow to meet your income so it’s harder when someone who makes 20K/month leaves their job than when someone who makes 5K/month does.” That’s only true if you’re a financially irresponsible idiot at 20K and making some sacrifices at 5K/month. Your spending doesn’t HAVE to match your income and it shouldn’t! Just because you can get a loan for a 7 figure+ condo doesn’t mean you should buy it. If you can’t get a loan because you don’t have 20% down, then you probably shouldn’t buy it.
hoo more rant… I feel better now
I think I need to leave LA… it’s in danger of making me soft.
@ Impulse Magazine: Don’t really follow your comment. Some things are bad, so please judge them. You say we can’t judge because we might be in that person’s shoes one day. Again, don’t follow. If I commit murder one day, feel free to judge me. If I steal from an old lady, I give you permission to judge me. If I declare bankruptcy and leave my creditors with nothing while continuing to enjoy luxury goods and not changing my behavior, go ahead and judge. It’s bad activity that we don’t have to pretend to be neutral about. And it’s not true that we could all be in a different person’s shoes one day. I am quite certain that I will never do any of the 3 things I listed above, and I also believe that I have enough control over my life, my decisions, and the subsequent consequences to ensure that this is the case.
I don’t think judgment is necessarily a bad thing, but it’s often unproductive. Mostly it just lets people feel angry or inferior or smugly self-righteous (I think the last one is the reason so many people like to do it). The world is probably going to carry on pretty much as it was regardless of whether you judge it correct or not.
What makes a difference to others isn’t how you feel about them inside, but how you act towards them outside. You may hate something a friend is doing, but hide that from them out of politeness, and they’ll never change. If you point it out to them it may help, or it may alienate them. Personally, I may not feel like I’ve lost much if I alienate a person I can’t stand to be around anyway.
Peer pressure is a powerful force, and it can be used for good purposes as well as bad. People talk about good role models for kids all the time — we want successful, healthy role models for our kids because kids try to emulate their role models. Well, adults do this, too. Maybe not as obviously, but we do. It’s why “keeping up with the Joneses” is such a problem. We see everyone around us looking successful and we try to emulate that.
I see no problem with sharing your values with your friends. It makes you an example. Hopefully you’re an example they look up to and want to emulate, and not the other way around. At the same time, there’s a difference between leading by example and constantly criticizing others for not following the example you try to set. And regardless of the example you set, you can’t just expect others to follow it. Some might. Others wont. Some will follow but only to a small degree. You have some influence over those around you, but only some.
It’s very possible to take the “judge not” too far.
Although I’m a Christian liberal hippie type who has always been “live and let live” etc, as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized there really is a place for sensible judgment of others’ actions.
Especially now that I have kids, I’ve gotten more comfortable saying “hey, that’s just not cool!”
If your friend was abusing his dogs, wouldn’t you have spoken up and scolded him on that?
His poor financial decisions are essentially abusing his family and their future–I think you should have said something.
The scope of your friend’s financial problems are really huge, making the situation totally different than when John was criticizing you. John was a jerk to scold you over wasting fractions of pennies. It’s jerky behavior because pennies don’t make a difference. At all.
But your friend is thousands in debt to his own family, he has kids, he’s bankrupt, and contemplating unnecessarily spending thousands more. I do think you should have said something, and not been subtle–he’s walking off a cliff!
First of all… I am not going to give you any grief for the conversation you had. Second, I thank you for your honesty.
Dee
Miss Manners suggests to say very seriously when the person complains, “I’m very worried about you. We need to take you to a counselor.” That’s supposed to stop the complaining, but I think with today’s entitled adults it’ll just provide more woe is me complaining.
I personally think the difference is that when you were feeling judged, although you could have been more frugal, you were doing fine. Spending less than you earn, saving, etc.
Your friend doesn’t seem to. He is spending a lot of money/planning to spend a lot of money that he apparently doesn’t have. He might end up in a much worse situation than he currently is, and very soon. You tried to help him and he just didn’t change, I understand the frustration: he went to you for advice/help, didn’t he?
I have to say though that I was shocked too by the pet thing. I guess what follows could be qualified as a rant, so you should feel free to skip it:
[RANT]I have seen pets let themselves die after being separated from their owners, and I personally see it as equivalent to suggesting he abandon his kids and/or dump his wife to save some money. They’re sentient beings, not items you can sell second hand, being apart from the people they love affects them.
While, when you can’t afford to feed them and take care of them properly,the humane thing to do is find other people - that they know well if possible - who can take care of them better than you, he obviously could cut corners in various other ways, and this is more of a last resort kind of thing so I don’t see it applicable to his case.
I understand that people have different things they think are more important and different things they are willing to sacrifice, but in a case of an iPod, the iPod doesn’t suffer from being bought by someone else, know what I mean? A pet does. Putting aside the high risk they would just be killed if given to an animal association rather than an owner directly (unless they are young enough to be qualified “adoptable”), it can be a very traumatic experience.
I would instead make sure to advise someone not to adopt another pet if they were thinking of it and are in financial trouble, and wait until they can afford it. It is better for a pet not to be adopted rather than adopted then abandoned, all else being equal.It’s probably much easier on the owner, too.[/RANT]
Anyway. It is normal for people to judge other people. In this case, it seems to me he asked for help but rejected anything that wasn’t a “magic formula”, and refused both effort and perceived efforts. It makes a lot of sense to be incredibly frustrated when you try so hard to help someone and they just reject everything you say and prefer doing something else that you know will hurt them.
There isn’t much you can do though. You can bang you head on a wall, but that’s pretty much it. He needs to really be willing to try, and then he’ll kick himself for not doing it sooner.
Okay, I’m going to pass on a little advice of my own here — I am very familiar with the Portland rental market and any house you could get for $500 must have had some VERY serious drawbacks. I know you mention you thought they wouldn’t stay there long term, but it might not have been the healthiest or safest bet at all.
I am staying in an old house with cheap rent and believe me, I’m paying for it — constant plumbing problems, rats in the basement, and a leaky roof. The landlord helps repair them every time, but not always very quickly. If I had kids, I would be even more worried.
It’s great that you want to help him and give him advice, but don’t presume everything you suggest is always going to be best.
This is such a great article. Thank you for sharing. Destined to be a GRS classic!
FYI…I’m moving to Portland in 10 days and have been looking at rentals. Supply is high and there are a lot of deals out there for those who want them. We got a modest 2-bd in a good close-in neighborhood for under $800.
Great Post!
As my mother always says…”Grown people do what they want to do” -
Your friend will need to be broken down, or tired before he gets to the point where he wants to change. Be there for him when he gets to that point.
Love GetRichSlowly……your site has been an inspiration, and has really helped me stay the course.
Shame on you for your callous remark about the dogs. I know a lot of people feel the same way as you do because we live in a rural area and people dump ther dogs and cats near our house when they get tired of them. All our pets have been animals that we have found and rescued. We’ve also found homes for several that we couldn’t keep. Responsible pet owners don’t just “get rid” of their pets when it becomes inconvenient to keep them. And they shouldn’t be pet owners if they’re not going to behave responsibly.
Wow… amazingly measured comments other than mine.
I still stand by mine though.
When someone is complaining and refuses to take any positive action, you have a right to judge, or at the very least you have the right to politely change the subject and give up on helping or trying to help. This person has shown you that they really don’t want you to spend time or effort finding things or making suggestions.
Re: the frugal guy next door. He sounds like my dad, a depression baby. When he tells me things like this, I explain to him why I made that decision, generally it is usually because my time is valuable. (Yes, I used to do X, but now my time is worth Y/hour, so it isn’t worth my time to save Z<Y anymore. Sometimes it is a quality argument or just that I LIKE something and can afford it.) He always accepts that (true frugal people understand buying top of the line and using it for 20+ years). I don’t think of it as judging from him, but a topic of conversation, especially since our responses allow different priorities for different people, which is the whole point of frugality, isn’t it?
p.s. I agree there’s a lot of things to cut before dogs. Pets are people too. There are homeless people who won’t give up their pets and that is OK, and possibly the right choice to make.
I believe that being frugal is a means to an end - to get your financial house in order.
Once you have your financial house in order, feel free to spend money on things or experiences that make you happy. Life is short, enjoy the fruits of your labor.
For me personally, frugality taken to the extreme is not how I want to live my life. I’m financially responsible. I don’t have an iPhone but I don’t want to worry about half a paper towel either.
Agree with pretty much everything but the dogs. Aaahhhh! Terrible idea. Not just for the dogs but this getting rid of them idea creates a whole new set of issues that will cost more in therapy down the road: abandonment, loyalty, values, etc.
And in all sincerity, I do not wish to be judgmental. There is a fine line between judging and apathy.
Thanks though for the great money savings hints and tips throughout the article.
It’s hard to judge but people always do regardless even if it’s not right.
You can’t force change upon people. So try and instill in him an ‘eager want’ to change. Once that want is established be free flowing in your praise of his accomplishments. So instead of criticizing his choice in living arrangements try and extol the virtues of living in a more modest location. $500 was probably a little extreme in his eyes and suggesting a comparable place for even $1000 would net a savings of $300 that he could then use to fuel his desire for something else, like a new car.
A lot of really good responses, and some not so good. What really cracks me up are the people who say to stop judging because judging is bad. Do they realize they’re judging…?
The issue isn’t so much about judging or not judging, (we judge every day) it’s about not being a blind hypocrite when you judge. JD is well qualified to judge (as he already has) and appears to have done so in a kind non arrogant manner. Sure Michael has to make the decision to actually change on his own, but JD can be a powerful TRUE friend if he points out the inconsistencies between what he’s telling him and his actions.
I was a lifeguard for several years at a beach in San Diego. Relatively few people enjoyed being told to move when they were in a dangerous area, but that never really deterred us. A few people actually appreciated it, those were ethically the ones we did it for anyway. Just because people dislike having someone notice their lack of experience (or blunt stupidity sometimes) isn’t a valid reason to not point it out.
As to “The Real Millionaire next Door”, your story made me laugh. Sounds like my Grandpa… while we may find those who value frugality above basic personal hygiene and health a little odd (or annoying), that’s the generation that saved the wealth our generation has already squandered. Now our generation is busy spending our kids money.
There was a time when fruit and paper towels were not so cheap and easy to come by. Deep in the hilarity of old age there is a lesson, or at least a self-realization for those of us who are younger to observe. So far the garbage and “recycling” cans crammed full every single week by almost every household has yet to get the point across I think. Really, though, paper towels on a boat? I thought that’s what jeans were for.
Oh the times I have seen this senario played out among my family members! How many times are you supposed to bail someone out from their financial mess before you throw up your hands and scream?! Despite good counsel and bailouts, some people will continue to make the same bad choices again and again. And this is what I’ve learned…YOU CAN’T MAKE A GROWN PERSON DO ANYTHING–EVER! You can’t force people to make wise choices. And while I feel compassion for their situation, I also can judge them for the way they got there…AGAIN. If you can afford to do something, then by all means do it (JD). But if you can’t afford it, then don’t. It’s really very simple…a matter of self control. But then, most people lack that, don’t they? Everyone makes mistakes, but the wise learn from their mistakes.
Your friend sounds like my family. The problem is that they always seem to come out fine…with the new iphones, vacations, cars, etc. They have learned to work the system and start new businesses and let them take the fall (phones and cars are business expenses, right?)filing bankrupt on an old business and starting up a new (don’t ask me how, it just happened again last year.)
I’m the one struggling with jealousy and wanting to do right but also stomping my feet, “It’s not fair!” Yet I sleep at night and have my needs+ met so all is good.
I know what I should and shouldn’t say to my friends and family about choices I see and don’t agree with, but I still judge. Everybody judges. Maybe it’s wrong, but it doesn’t seem like something a person can just turn off.
My mom thinks my husband and I shouldn’t have a biweekly housekeeper or lawn service. I don’t think she should have tried giving me 5% college loans but let my sister use as much as she wants for free.
My friends shouldn’t be buying $1000 a month in groceries like soda and chips and bottled water when they are $30k plus in debt. Or have uber-cell phones. They think I should spend more on my dogs.
My coworkers should stop buying new cars when they’re still upside down on their old ones. They think I should develop the taste for beer and stop being so uptight about a budget.
Everybody judges. The trick is to offer an opinion when asked and shut up the rest of the time. I think you handled the thing with your friend correctly. I also think your “millionaire next door” should have kept his mouth shut more. Judging is tricky, keeping your mouth shut isn’t.
I haven’t read the other comments yet, but one big issue sticks out to me:
you and your friend Micheal were already talking about his finances, therefore I think it was appropriate if you would have pushed back harder and really tried to hammer your points home. He clearly still doesn’t “get it”.
Your friend John was giving you unsolicited advice without delving into the details like you did with Michael. However, maybe you felt bad because part of you knew it was good advice, albeit on a much smaller scale than Michael’s mess.
My sister in law babysits for a Michael-clone. They are always complaining that they don’t have any money “because of the economy” but they still send their kids to private school, get milk delivered to their home, buy designer clothes and the husband still keeps a motorcycle (financed I assume). They want my sister-in-law to drop her price (which is already too low, IMO) but don’t seem to want to cut back anywhere else. I don’t know the full story of course, but appearances in this case seem to be right on.
Also, I think suggesting “getting rid of the dogs” was insensitive.
It’s rather similar to having an obese friend who constantly moans about being overweight and yet ….. you see what they eat for lunch (fast food) and see how much they exercise (never). After a while, you lose any empathy and DO become judgmental.
It’s been said, but I agree with other commenters about the dogs. Dumping an animal that loves you when it becomes an inconvenience is awful. People who do that should not own pets.
That said, the dogs are not the problem in this situation. I know people who fell on hard times and moved their family into an apartment for a year. They walk their dogs. It’s not ideal–of course they want a yard–but it was a temporary solution. Giving up their pets was not an option, nor was it necessary.
As for helping your friend, I don’t think there’s much you can do other than offer advice when he asks for it. Like you, I didn’t change my ways for quite some time, and it had to come from ME. I have friends who are awful with finances–declared bankruptcy twice and yet were in line for the new iPhone. It’s so frustrating because you want to help them, want to make them see what they are doing, but you can’t. I remind myself of this quote by Anais Nin:
“You cannot save people, you can only love them.”
I don’t think I’m judging my friends, I’m just frustrated sometimes and want to make them see what they’re doing to themselves. But Anais Nin was right, all you can do is be a friend and listen when they need to talk (then lock yourself in a closet and scream profanities after listening to their crappy choices).
@ #34 Holly: You reference a study by Pavlov from the early 1900’s, but fail to reference ANY animal studies done in the 100 years since Pavlov did his work (and his work was cutting open the digestive tract of animals, by the way). Countless animal studies have shown that when in fear (oh sorry, humans are so much better than other animals and are the only ones with feelings)….when exposed to a stimulus that would incite fear in a human…animals given the choice between a food source and a texturally soft item will always choose the texturally soft item. In human babies we’d say they prefer parental comfort over food. But of course, animals have no feelings, so they can’t be scared OR comforted…
Did it ever occur to you that feelings - fear, love, etc. - are just evolutionary constructs that keep us alive? Have you ever seen a previously abused dog physically shy away from a person similar in appearance to their abuser? But no, they aren’t afraid….
Have you also ever seen the dogs at the pound locked in cages? Suggesting people give up their dogs IS the same as suggesting they give up their children.
There are two issues here. The first is judging behavior, the second is sharing that judgment with your friends. I think we have not only a right but a responsibility to judge bad behavior. What does it say about YOUR morals and standards if you see nothing wrong with how he’s living his life?
This is a pet peeve of mine: how people don’t want to ‘judge’, so they refuse to call a spade a spade. They refuse to identify bad behavior, but a side effect of that is often refusing to identify good behavior. Everything has just become a muddle of legitimate choices. I don’t think that’s a good thing.
As far as calling people on it: there is also a difference between bad and wrong. I have no problem with [what I judge to be] bad decisions being made by autonomous adults that pay their bills. Half of the most successful ideas out there I thought were stupid when they started out (many I STILL don’t understand), so I admit to being frequently wrong and my philosophy and approach reflects that. This is your situation with John. He is judging your spending decisions as bad. Bully for him. I support his right to make that judgment, but not him being obnoxious about it. If you judge his behavior to be obnoxious you are within your right to ask him to stop and/or not spend time with him. Simple. If he doesn’t put you off, then don’t worry about it. My grandfather used to make comments like that to me and I’d shrug and chalk it up to different generations and personalities.
But I DO have a problem with wrong decisions. I define this as bad decisions that effect people around you. Your rights end where the next person’s begins. Your right to make bad money choices ends when you borrow money to support that lifestyle and don’t pay it back. I would even say that you don’t have the right to jeopardize your financial life at the risk of those dependent on you (like your kids). I have no sympathy. He isn’t a compulsive spender, hoarder, or sound like he exhibits signs of mental illness (Another pet peeve: ascribing bad behavior to ‘addiction’, ‘mental illness’, or something else outside a person’s area of control in order to absolve them from blame and responsibility). He is just making stupid decisions that are most comfortable at the time and paying only lip service to the consequences. He probably IS worried, but the situation is working for him. He’s getting what he wants. Until that changes, he won’t.
Your friend is like most of the people I know who declare bankruptcy, and the reason so many people around here have a hard time with it. It isn’t just bad luck that led him down this path. It was a series of lousy decisions (which he continues to make post bankruptcy, doesn’t sound like he learned anything from the situation). The bad luck very often can be overcome with prudent decisions. Once again, if you don’t judge that and see something wrong with it I am going to start questioning YOU. But as I said at the beginning: that is a completely separate issue from how to express your judgment appropriately. He isn’t receptive. So smile, wish him a good day, and never buy him lunch again.
We ALL seem to have a friend or family member like Michael (some of us are blessed with a whole mess of ‘em). And we’re all frustrated. But if you don’t ‘judge’, if you don’t see anything wrong with his behavior, how would you ever help him when he’s seen the light?
1. I’m disappointed in you, JD. Wanting to use an extra 1/2 sheet of paper towel. The nerve!
2. Why not give your friend a copy of your book?
3. When I come to Portland, I want you to take me to the Screen Door. Looks like my type of place.
Your story hit home for me. My brother has gone through a lot of the same issues (foreclosure, bankruptcy, etc.) in the last several years, and I loaned him $6k four years ago to help him make mortgage payments. Four years later I have seen only $300 repaid - when I begged for it - while I watch his non-working wife spend gobs of money on useless crap, rent larger than needed homes, take their kids to the circus, etc. I even watched them take a more-lavish-than-I-would-have-taken vacation. With my money.
In this situation, I do feel I have the right to cast stones, because his stupidity has affected my own finances tremendously. Your friend Michael should be ashamed of himself not paying back his family. His family members who loaned him money are also watching him and thinking the same thing. He does not really “feel so guilty” if he is not at least making an effort to pay them back.
Please tell Michael this for me, will you?
RE: Andy (#3) comment:
I think JD’s rich friend could be helping if JD’s goal is to be financially independent one day. He is just showing him how he did it. It reminds me of a parable I heard:
“The philosopher Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king. Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.”Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.”
— Anthony de Mello
@#18- well along the same lines, children are luxury expenses… maybe he should just get rid of his kids & put them up for adoption.
Don’t listen to your neighbor about the backpack vs. an old duffell, the pack will eventually save you money traveling Europe. It’ll be much easier to walk around with and take trains and busses and to avoid cab rides, which are one of the biggest and quickest wastes of money traveling.
The other year my friend met us in Paris and brought a cheap duffel he packed full. It was too cumbersome for him to carry onto the subways so he had to pay almost $100 Euro to take a cab from DeGaulle airport to meet us at the hotel when the train was about 8. Then when it was time for us to take the Erostar to London he wanted to split a cab that would have cost my wife and I 40 euro as opposed to 4 each by train. He could have bought a pack like yours for less than his added transportation costs which he could use for years instead of wasting more money on a one time expense. We traveled with a Victorinox combo backpack/ roller for 6 months we bought at REI. The zipper on an outside pouch busted before we returned and when we got back I brought it back to REI and 10 days later I received a brand new one via UPS. Sometimes it’s just better and more frugal to spend some money on quality items you intend to use regularly.
I know the pet situation is really a touchy issue, and maybe another family should be looked for to take care of the dogs until they get on there feet. It is hard to justify keeping animals when you can not afford to take care of them. That does not really do them any justice either.
The reality of it is it costs alot to take care of animals and if you don’t have the money you really can not take care of them.
The phone situation blows me away, a 11 year old? Iphone? Crazy.
You can not help these people, I have a brother who does really dumb stuff, he has never changed, I just shake my head, I know where it goes every time. It is sad and hard to watch it, and you can not get away from it since it is your family.
It just struck me that the man telling you to save a paper towel and rotten fruit owns a boat and travels to Alaska annually (right?). Some folks would think that’s not so frugal.
This is a perfect example of seeing situations from different perspectives. Yes, your friend Michael could be making much better choices, but then you saw Michael’s side of it when you were ’scolded’ during your trip for not making choices that were in line with John’s philosophies.
On the other hand, you were making an effort by thinking ahead with the backpack and trying to conserve the paper towels. It doesn’t sound like your friend is making any attempt to save money or be frugal.
Okay, I have two dogs. I really enjoy my two dogs and they really like my husband and me. I cannot see giving them away UNLESS we hit rock bottom. The way I see it, it’s my job to stay financially stable enough to never hit rock bottom so my dogs will always have a home (and because I enjoy financial stability of course).
Michael needs to get a new mindset before any expenses like dogs or rent would even matter. If he rented the place for $500 a month and gave up his dogs, he’s just turn around and spend all the money on some other piece of consumer crap. The dogs, cell phones, and $1300 rent are just symptoms of the real problem. Michael just hasn’t admitted to himself yet that he doesn’t “deserve” news cars and $1300 places to live…until he gets it, everything else is insignificant.
As for everybody having a cow over giving away the dogs, I think JD was just trying to weigh the advantages of $500 rent to $1300 rent. If the dogs were the only things holding Michael back, he could have found them a nice home (like with JD *wink*). But, the dogs aren’t why Michael wanted a better place to live…they were just an excuse.
Great article. I loved it.
Your millionaire-next-door friend is being a jerk and needs to see a shrink in my opinion. Scrooge McDuck Syndrome; he doesn’t sound like a happy person and casting around judgement alienates his friends and makes them resentful. Misers have a bad rep for a reason. He’s missing the point of being frugal, there are limits!
Your friend in hardship will have to come around on his own it seems. He’s not there yet. Judging him will be like your friend on the boat as you pointed out, he’s going to resent you for it. All you can do is be kind and offer to provide advice when asked for it. He should be turning to you given your following here and having a PF book published and all.
Are you worried he’ll read this post and feel your judgement?
PS Fried chicken with potatoes and gravy? Aren’t you on a quest to lose 40lbs?
RE: DOGS
I feel the need to jump in here and defend JD. He didn’t say ‘dump the dogs’. He has written about his own pets often enough that I doubt he was picturing stopping on the side of the freeway and shoving them out the door. I have known people who have had drastic changes in lifestyle or finances who have had to find new homes for their pets, or who find they just aren’t up to the care the animal needs. I had to do so myself after my daughter was born and one of my cats wasn’t too happy about it and started peeing in all of her blankets. You find a situation where the animal will be safe and happy and adopt them into a new family. Animals are more resilient than some of you are giving them credit for. Animals live in the moment, if their new family is a good situation they will be fine. And it can be a good lesson to the kids to tell them “We can’t care for them properly, so we are being responsible and finding them a better situation.”
I agree with those of you that point out that the dogs aren’t the issue. They actually sound like an excuse, but I didn’t think JD’s comments were out of line.
“Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)? I’m betting they ‘love’ the owner who feeds them; do not confuse the ‘affection’ of your pet with real feelings…only humans have that capacity.”
Ever watch a dog sleep? They dream. You can see it. If a dog can dream, it can think. Even if its not like the way humans think, its still something.
Ever leave a dog with somebody for a week or 2 to go on vacation? Do that and then tell me that the reaction they have when you come home has anything to do with food. They are genuinely glad to see you. Yes, they are dependent on you for food and shelter, but that doesn’t mean they can’t love you too.
JD
I have been in your shoes many times. People who I cared for didn’t think through their decisions and paid heavily for it - financially, emotionally and physically.
You are trying to be a good friend. You want your friend to change his ways and quickly get out from under the burden of debt and get on the path to prosperity. However, it is not so easy. Bad habits are very hard to break, especially if it feels like you are moving down the ladder. And no matter how much you gnash your teeth, you are not going to help them any more than they want your help.
So, just be a good friend and ask if they need your advice. Give them just a small piece of advice and see how they use it. If they completely ignore it, you know what you should do with rest of your advice…