This article is from staff writer Kristin Wong.
A few years ago, I started spending time with a coworker outside of work. She was cool, fun to hang out with, and we had a lot in common. Except income.
She worked in a separate department and made significantly more money than I did. Hanging out with her and her friends usually involved dining at fancy restaurants, drinking at fancy bars, and talking about whether we’d go to Greece or St. Bart’s — I hadn’t been to either.
Today, we’re no longer friends. It’s not because we had some falling out or personality clash — we just came from two totally different worlds. After turning down a slew of invites, not being able to vacation with her, and generally saying ‘no’ to friendly financial pressure, we grew apart.
Frankly, I just couldn’t afford the friendship.
Financial inequality often becomes an issue in friendships. It’s probably much harder to deal with in relationships, but it can still take a toll on friendships. It has for me, and lately, I’ve been wondering — how do you deal with making significantly more or less than your friends?
Problem #1: Guilt and Jealousy
When our friends begin to reach their financial goals, it can make us sensitive. It can remind us of our own goals that we’re struggling to reach. GRS writer April Dykman once wrote about this topic, pointing out that one person’s success can often signal a friend’s failure.
I can relate. I have friends with some pretty big accomplishments under their belts. They’ve written movies; they’ve published books. I hate to admit it, and it’s not very endearing, but I’m jealous. Sure, I’m happy for them and all. But more so, I’m jealous. I want to do those things, and the more they succeed, the more I think, “I’m not succeeding at that.”
Similarly, when our friends start to monumentally surpass us financially, I think it’s only natural to self-reflect. And that self-reflection can lead to jealousy. If that jealousy inspires us to reach our goals, that’s one thing; if it builds resentment, that’s another.
Conversely, the other person — the one who’s making more money — might start to feel guilty. Especially if you feel like your income inequality is causing a rift in your friendship, you might start to feel like it’s your fault for “changing.”
Solution #1: Communication
For my MSN job, I interview a lot of relationship experts, psychologists and therapists. When I talk to them about relationship problems, their solutions always go back to one thing — communication. It might be cliché, but it’s important. If you’re having feelings of guilt or jealousy, it’s important to talk about it. Money is an awkward subject. But the longer you bottle in your feelings, the more resentment will fester, and then awkwardness will thrive.
Last year, I met a new friend who loves going out all the time. I began feeling the same way I did with my old coworker — like we couldn’t afford to be friends. But this time, I decided to not let that get in the way. I flat out told her, “I can’t afford to do these things.” Interestingly, we still hang out, and since then, she’s even told me, “I can’t afford to go out to dinner. Let’s hang out at my place instead.”
A simple act of communication salvaged — nay, improved — my friendship.
Problem #2: Giving and Taking (Advantage)
You should treat friends sometimes. Especially if it’s your idea to go to a fancy place and you make more money than they do, you shouldn’t have a problem with picking up the tab sometimes.
That being said, it’s easy to take advantage of a friend who enjoys giving. Even the nicest, most polite of us sometimes take advantage of people without even realizing it. My parents, for example, always insist on paying when I visit them in Texas. While I don’t mean to take advantage, I’ve come to expect it. It’s not right, but it’s easy.
After college, I started my first “real job.” The pay wasn’t spectacular, but it was better than the near-minimum wage I was making while in school. A good friend of mine was still in college, making near-minimum wage. We would go for drinks every Friday night, taking turns on picking up the tab. But when I got my new job, suddenly it was assumed that I should start paying the tab week after week. When I inquired about this, my friend’s answer was: “well, you make more than me now.” Our new income inequality meant that I had to make things equal by paying most of the time.
Solution #2: Set Boundaries
I told my friend that this wasn’t how things were going to work. I shouldn’t have to pay each time simply because I made more money. Also, I explained that I now spent a lot more time working and I moved into a nicer, more expensive apartment. So my “entertainment fund” was about the same as it used to be. It was an awkward conversation, and for a time, I felt like money caused a rift between us. But it needed to be said; boundaries needed to be set.
On the other side of the coin, all of us have that one friend who always insists on paying. Sometimes it gets to the point where you just get used to it — like with my parents. If that friend doesn’t feel the need to set financial boundaries, find other ways to repay them. That could mean babysitting, helping them with home repairs, etc. You might earn significantly less than they do, but your time is still valuable.
Problem #3: Growing apart
As your net worth starts to drastically differ from your friend’s, growing apart may be easy. I hated nodding and smiling while my old coworker talked about what the weather was like in Santorini this time of year. Similarly, while I live a pretty middle-of-the-road lifestyle, I still have some friends who have to worry about paying the bills each month. It’s hard for me to talk to those friends about certain topics. We can’t talk about things like savings goals, for example. Or even simpler things — like cable alternatives or road trips. When I talk about those things, I feel like I’m inadvertently being condescending, as those are not even options in their financial lives right now. Sometimes, this makes conversation difficult, and often, I feel like we’re growing apart.
Solution #3: Keep Traditions Alive
It’s important to keep doing the things you were doing. If you used to invite your friend over for Sunday dinner, don’t stop doing that just because you (or they) start making more money. Your lifestyle and priorities may change, but keeping the traditions alive will help ensure your friendship stays in tact.
I don’t know all the answers, as this is something I’m in the process of dealing with. The sentimental side of me thinks that true friendship won’t let a little thing like financial inequality get in the way. After all, laughter, love and understanding are the elements that make friendships thrive, and they’re also free.
But there is the unpleasant reality that sometimes, friendships end. It’s the last resort answer to all of this, but it happens. Maybe the income gap is too big an obstacle for a friend. Or maybe you set boundaries, and they just don’t get it. For whatever reason, I suppose, sometimes, you just have to accept the end of a friendship and learn to move on.
These are the problems and solutions I’ve come across, and I’d like to ask — has financial inequality ever been an issue in any of your friendships or relationships? If so, what happened? How did you deal with it?
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There are no universal answers. We’ve been on both ends of this issue. We drew back from a couple we still like because we simply lost our taste for the (expensive) things they like and we could sense they pulled their noses up at the (more affordable) things we like. It’s a natural drift – sad, sure. But inevitable. It is what it is.
We’ve also been on the other side, and we discovered that by accident. When I decided to cash out and go to graduate school in California, we way scaled down our possessions and lifestyle. Over dinner one night, a couple told us how much more they enjoyed our company, for no other reason than they didn’t feel as inadequate as when they couldn’t keep up with us.
That made us stand back and evaluate which group we wanted as friends. And we resolved to never drive fancy cars, live in a fancy house or wear designer clothes again. It was our choice and, judging by how many friends we have, good friends, I think we made the right choice.
It is a choice. Just like you choose your marriage partner, you choose your friends. Money clearly isn’t the only factor, but it isn’t a non-factor either, especially if the other party is more sensitive about it.
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It is hard when friends make more or less than you. Being a poor graduate, most friends are in roughly the same boat currently.
One friend who became an engineer for a major transport company is faaar better off than me, which does sometimes make it easy to let him pay, but I try to avoid this by paying my share when I see him.
Then again I have another friend who is a single mum with two very young kids. Her income is very limited, and it’s awkward to talk about certain topics, such as the occasional holiday.
I think money can be a big factor in relationships, despite your best efforts to prevent it. Doing free things like going for a walk is the best way to keep a friendship going.
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When I was in high school, I interviewed all my English teachers, asking them what was the best and the worst part of their job. My favorite teacher gave an answer that echoes what you wrote about. She said all the friends who had the same educational background as her made more money, so that socializing on equal footing was really hard.
Those comments stuck with me. I hadn’t thought about how the career/financial choices I would make would affect my social circles.
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I think that is great that you thought to interview your teachers and that they gave you candid answers!
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When I was young and poor, I had a friend who was a millionaire. We got along swimmingly, because we understood the difference in our financial standings and simply did things that fit in with the lower budget, and paid our own ways. Now that I’m closer to his state than I was then, I have the same consideration for my current friends.
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You’re lucky! I thought going to university I’d have friends all in the same “broke student” boat, but no, most of them are international students whose parents have deep pockets or who have some kind of inheritance to live off. They don’t do slumming it, they always want to eat in real restaurants and think nothing of spending £5 a day on coffee and cake (why would they? They can afford a personal trainer to help burn it off). It can be very frustrating and expensive to try and socialise with them because then just don’t understand what it’s like to be on a budget.
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I had the same issue with friends from overseas. Their lives were full of constantly eating out at posh restaurants, spa treatments, shopping at all the big name stores (Burberry, etc) while I always had to pass up on their weekend getaways to Napa and beg that we eat at a place where it was less than $10/plate.
It got old after a while for the both of us so we ended up parting ways. I guess they were sick of the “poor American”.
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I think that’s a great strategy. I have a friend who often entertains some long-time friends who have far fewer resources than he does. He always insists on entertaining and buying the sort of food that they could reciprocate with rather than something so fancy that they’d feel uncomfortable.
Sometimes, it’s hard to know where other people stand in terms of finances. We don’t usually talk much about money and how much we have available, so it can be hard to tell if we’re doing things appropriately.
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Tom, I agree I currently have friends (a couple) who make way more then I do, but luckily they are very considerate and understanding. It also helps that they don’t flaunt or spend ridiculously. they have no problem eating where I want etc.
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I had a roommate that would nickel and dime us when we graduated from college. If the cable bill went up 27 cents he divided it by our percentage of the bill and wouldn’t refill the toilet paper if one of us forget it was our turn to buy. It was sad but that caused rifts and I don’t talk to that person as much anymore. I had no problem paying for these things but it was the extreme detail he divided everything by that just got too old very fast. Instead of splitting a bill three ways he’d go as far as dividing the tax up. While I agree that we all need to pay our share it would have all worked out in the end and he was just saving himself a few cents or at most a dollar or two. Sad thing to grow apart over.
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I suppose it’s a safe bet that of the two of you (you and your roommate), you had the higher income?
I doubt he’d have been so meticulous with the accounting if he really felt confident that it would all “even out” in the end. I’m guessing that your income was higher than his, and thus overpaying for community items by a few dollars a month was no big deal for you, but may have meant a cheque bouncing for him.
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I wouldn’t be so sure of that. I have a friend who does that and she makes FAR more than I do. As in, almost double. I don’t make a huge deal about my financial situation (I chose my career, after all, and don’t need much to live well, so I certainly don’t feel poor or destitute), but she does know about it, and I find behavior like that to be cheap and annoying.
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yes, the one person I knew who did this made far more money than the rest of us. but she had other issues…
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It’s more a function of personality than of financial status. I had one co-worker who would pull out her calculator and split the bill whenever we ate together. We all made roughly the same amount. It made her happy to have every penny in its rightful place, so we let her do what she had to do to be happy. Money represents more than just what it can buy to many people, which is why some people who have enough horde it anyway, and other people who barely make ends meet are quick to pick up the tab or give to charity.
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Yikes. Unfortunately, I can completely relate. I had an almost identical situation with a roommate. She was such a cool person, but after we became roomies and I got massively taken advantage of, it was hard to want to keep in touch with her. It’s amazing how different people can be once money is involved!
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Sounds like an ex of mine I lived with 9 years ago. Everything was split exactly down the middle regardless if we lived together or not. Groceries, meals out, utilities, etc. He made a lot more than I did, but that didn’t matter. It was exhausting to say the least.
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I don’t really understand this. If the bill changed, why wouldn’t you still divide it up by how many people were in the house? A $3 bill needs to be paid $1 each, and a $3.27 bill needs to be paid $1.09 each. If you didn’t divide it, who would pay it? And do you mean that he wouldn’t be the one to go out and buy toilet paper if it was your turn? What? Why wouldn’t you go out and buy it?
I’m either really misunderstanding this, or I’m the nightmare roommate. I admit that I handled all the money in my college roommate situations. Bills came to me and were divide evenly, and I was paid the exact amount. I really don’t understand another way to do that.
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I agree. This sounds like a person who only wanted to pay his share and wanted everyone else to do the same. What’s wrong with that?
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So, um, I hate to break it to you, but you are the nightmare roommate. I’ve learned over the years that people do not appreciate the meticulous dividing.
That being said, I’ve always been with you! I’m that person. Usually the solution is “nightmare roommate pays all of the bills and handles all of the dividing and whatnot, and everyone else unbegrudgingly hands over a check”. I make nearly 100K/year, and live with two PhD students, who make 20K/year (maybe).
The key is usually in the diplomacy. “This is the roommate agreement, everyone will pay everything equally. We will have separate groceries, toilet paper, laundry detergent, etc.. I will do ALL of the tracking, bill paying, negotiation with service providers, repairs, maintenance calls, and will still chip in my percentage of chores. As such, I will tell you how much of the bill each of you owes 15 days before the 1st, give you an itemized bill report, and expect you to pay it. If this is not an acceptable arrangement, please feel free to move out.”
Roommates have a business relationship as well as a friendship relationship. Having a well-defined business relationship up front allows for an easy friendship transition.
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Where would the world be without nightmare roommates, then? Some people would always pay for lots of things, and some people would never pay enough. And they’d be happy and they wouldn’t care?
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As for taking turns buying toilet paper, dish detergent and things like that, I tend to assume that stuff always evens out in the end. Then again, I used to live with two horrible roommates, and once when I came back from vacation, they were using paper towels as toilet paper. Apparently without me there, neither of them had the initiative to go out and buy TP.
I wonder where they are now…
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For me, the nightmare situation wasn’t so much with the bills (I agree, its best if all of that is paid equally) but in other things. If I forgot my wallet one time, she would demand that I pay her back exactly the $5.13 or whatever instead of letting me, for example, pay for dinner the next night. Since I make it a point to always pay it back, I found that to be obnoxious as I spent all kinds of time finding change or writing checks for random small amounts. This is also the girl who, to save fifty cents a week, wouldn’t use the dryer in the dorm laundry room. The whole thing just seemed….chincy to me,
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This year a friend really wanted to have a big shindig for her 40th birthday. In San Diego. I’m a big fan of birthdays. Big, big fan. But right smack dab in the middle of the summer, with prior commitments already existing, air fare, hotel, pet sitter, and spending money for someone else’s birthday, was just not in the cards.
I sent a very nice email saying as much. Also detailing how we were looking forward to a night on the town here to ring in her big 4.0. We’ve celebrated birthdays with this person for about 8 years.
I haven’t heard from her since.
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Some friend. Youch!
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I’ve never faced this with my close friends, despite significant income disparity. Because I think the issue isn’t income disparity, but *lifestyle* disparity. My husband and I are DINKS; we naturally have far more disposable income than my friends with two kids and one income. But because our lifestyle is fairly similar to there’s, we don’t have these issues. I don’t go to the Greek islands or regularly dine at Michelin restaurants. We all choose the same kinds of places to eat and activities to participate in on a regular basis, so not only is there no discomfort during conversations, but no one is suggesting activities the other’s can’t afford.
On the rare occasion someone does something special (and expensive), the other’s are able to be happy for them, and interested in the story.
No one is throwing out that they put $x into their Roth that month or invested $y in TIPS, and since that is the major place where our income disparity manifests itself, it isn’t an issue for us.
So I think this goes largely back to forming friendships with people who have similar values. With that as a solid foundation, it’s easy to overlook the rare trip to the Greek islands.
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Well said. You hit on what I was getting at below in my post — but got to the root of the issue.
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This is exactly what I was thinking. So many wealthy people do not lifestyle inflate (how do you think they got wealthy?). My closest friends are all anti-snobbery, and I don’t think their lifestyles would be completely unlike mine should they become super rich.
I have friends in different socioeconomic statuses. One very wealthy and one very poor. How does our friendship work? We just don’t get together too often and we do things that interest all of us (eating at a pizza restaurant, walking around a lake, going to Target, just hanging out at home). I don’t think it is too difficult to maintain these friendships, especially if the frequency of getting together is less than once a month.
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I have to disagree with that. As the low-income earner of the group, I enjoy seeing my friends more than once a month! What I like about my friends now is what I liked about them when we met in college: our ability to have fun and just hang out with some pizza/tacos/etc. It’s just that now, instead of cramming into a dorm room, we can sit in someone’s living room.
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That’s great for now, because you’re living a similar outward lifestyle to your less-financially-well-off friends. But while you’re piling up huge amounts of cash in your IRA and 401(k), they’re living paycheque to paycheque.
Such a difference is easily overlooked today, while you’re in “save” mode (and they’re in “survive” mode), but what will happen once you turn 60 and want to retire, and they’re facing the prospect of having to work forever? Will you hold onto your job and keep clocking 40 hours a week so you don’t appear too ostentatious to your friends? Or will you finally put your feet up and enjoy the fruits of a lifetime of saving while your friends perpetually struggle to make ends meet and their bodies grow ever more tired and feeble? Will they still feel happy for you then? Will your friendship survive that?
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I would be interested in some perspective from the more mature/retired readers of GRS. Could you comment on that? What happens when you retire? Or can’t work anymore?
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I will jump in Kris as hubby retired at 60 (5 yrs ago) and I continue to work full time only because I love my job. We have both made good incomes and have always been frugal so our financial retirement future is rosy. One of our best friend couples will likely never be able to retire as they “need” a lot of things and expensive entertainment that we don’t. It is awkward at times when they talk about never getting to retire and the husband has developed some health issues that makes it harder for him to work. Yet they continue to spend at a level that isn’t sustainable without their combined salaries. We have mutually acceptable activities that we do together and they know we aren’t going to live performances that cost $50 a seat with them. Most of our friends though have similar values and I think this kind of thing tends to work itself out as you naturally gravitate toward people who share your interests.
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Perhaps it’s just me but the fact that a person retires doesn’t seem like it would affect a friendship. How is this any different from being friends with a person who stays at home, either taking care of kids, spouse, or both? It can be even better because you don’t have to work around the same type of time constraints and a retiree has more control over his or her schedule. And as to failing health, I know of a number people who have failing health. That can impact a friendship regardless of job status and age.
I think the most important factor with this is simple jealousy. If your friend retired and you haven’t, will you be jealous to the point that it affects the friendship . . .
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I think retired vs. not-retired in a friendship could be difficult to navigate if the retired half has the wherewithal to move around or do new things. I think it would be difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who heads to Florida for six months of the year or decides they’d rather be sociable during an early tee time every morning instead of meeting up for happy hours like in the old days.
I also think it would be very difficult to be the last one in the group to retire, too.
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My mom is having this problem, she’s been retired 5 years and a lot of her friends are not only still working, but in serious financial trouble – one retired pair are basically homeless, moving from one kid’s house to another and talking about declaring bankruptcy. Two still-working couples are facing foreclosure at the moment. Others are looking at never being able to retire because of dependent children (one with a child with serious mental illness who will never be independent), or have lost jobs in their early ’60s and become dependent on their children.
Mostly what’s happened is that they visit the old friends who can’t afford to travel, but in their new, retired, relocated life they have made new friends.
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My parents live in a retirement community. They have been able to retire (though my father still does some consulting because he finds it fulfilling) and many of their friends and neighbors haven’t yet reached that point. It still does not seem to be an issue because the choices for leisure activities are still within everyone’s reach. My mom hit the thrift stores on senior day with her friends. The have a rotating weekly happy hour potluck. They participate in the activities run through the community, like tennis club or beading club, which cost about $25 annually. Sure, my dad is able to do more of these things than his school teacher neighbor, but when they get together (which they do often), the friendships are clearly strong.
Just like with me and my non-retired friends, their lives are different. Soem go to work and some re retired. Some go to work and some are stay at home moms. But we enjoy each other’s company and working or parenting or traveling to the Greek Islands or dining on the finest cuisine are not the basis for our friendships, so, while we occasionally talk about those things, they don’t get in the way of the relationships.
So it still seems like the issue comes down to lifestyle parity, not financial parity.
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This… except there’s so little to do in our town that socializing is generally going to be low-cost. Usually food and drinks at someone’s house because the menus on the fancy restaurants don’t change.
My friends who make more do go on fancier vacations, but we’ve never vacationed with someone who wasn’t family so that’s never been an issue with us.
Our (not living in the same town) family who make less either have similar lifestyles to what we have or they spend *more* than we do on the entertainment category. It depends on whether or not they budget.
Seems like most of our non-retirement money these days goes to childcare. Many of our friends are DINKs, or just now having a first child.
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“I think the issue isn’t income disparity, but *lifestyle* disparity”
Great point! Even if I made what my coworker/friend was making, I probably wouldn’t be spending it on designer bags and super fancy meals (not to judge–it’s not not my thing). The vacations, on the other hand…
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Exactly.
I only have a few friends I can talk savings or investment with, but other than that we’re on the same page as most of our friends.
It only becomes an issue for me with family members, who assume (since they know our income) we can afford to do whatever expensive thing they want to do. Except we have a kid, and they don’t. So we can’t.
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Very well said! We have friends across a wide spectrum of age and income. Some are making the big bucks and some are just doing fine. But one of our favorite activities is running together every weekend – which I will note is free. We get together for brunch occasionally and run races together occasionally. But – generally speaking our commonalities (running + the things we talk about for hours on end every weekend) outweigh the lifestyle differences (primarily house sizes and travel expenses – interestingly enough we all drive pretty similar cars).
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I had one friend (she is now late) who took advantage of me. This went on for quite a few years before I realized what was happening. I sat her down and told her that I would not help her again no matter what because of her ‘short handedness’. I stuck to my word and she stopped asking me for anything but we continued being good friends minus money exchanging hands. On the other hand, I have two friends who are the most generous people I know. When going out, we sometimes go dutch and sometimes any of us picks up the tab for no reason other than she wants to treat her friends. We have been friends for almost 20 years and have had no problems regarding money issues whatsoever. That is the kind of friend I like.
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It’d be nice if money didn’t get in the way of friendship, but like you said “laughter, love and understanding are the elements that make friendships thrive,” not money. But money can create rifts in understanding, which decreases the laughter, and pretty soon the love dies too. Keep up that understanding, which means keep up that communication!
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Agreed! It always goes back to communication, doesn’t it?
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This was a great article. My wife and I are experiencing something very similar with some close friends. I met my wife at my college roommate’s wedding. I was an usher, she was the maid of honor. Anyway, both my college roommate and my wife’s friend come from a ton of money. My roommate’s dad owned an engineering firm, and my wife’s friend’s dad was the CEO of a local hospital.
Our incomes were pretty similar at first, but since we’ve all started families things have really changed. My wife and I decided to scale back, so she could be a stay-at-home mom. Our friends both work and receive tons of “gifts” from their wealthy family.
I’ll admit that it there are definitely times where I get jeolous. They’re financial situation is just so much better than ours that we’re experiencing that “drift” in our friendship. We don’t have as much in common anymore, since we’re quite frugal and they’re quite spendy. It’s a hard issue to address, because we’ve all been friends for a long time.
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Yeah, it’s hard not to get envious sometimes, and I hate that feeling. When I find myself getting jealous of something I know I can’t have, I just make a list the things I DO have (In your case, your beautiful family). Simple, and corny as hell, but it helps.
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It’s hard when relationships get pulled on by negative emotions, especially when we often don’t have a lot of control over them. One thing you might try is to read the Millionaire Next Door – there’s a whole section about how people whose parents help them out with monetary gifts often struggle much more with money than those who don’t, and gets deep into the psychology and pattern setting that entails. It might help you turn things on their head mentally – instead of jealousy over their advantages, you may be able to feel sorry that they’re being screwed over through family kindness, and being pushed deeper into the hole. If you’re feeling especially big-hearted, this can make you deeply sympathetic; if you’re struggling with jealousy, this may make you feel superior. Either way, it may help you re-frame the issue in a way that stops you from feeling bad, and lets you focus on the good stuff in your friendship.
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Interesting article.
I’m wondering if this is more applicable to single people or people without kids. I can honestly say I’ve never even given thought to if I can/should continue to be friends with someone because of this issue.
Once you have kids, you don’t do a lot of retail/restaurant entertainment and your vacations are with your family. It doesn’t matter if they go to the Dominican Republic and we go camping.
Then again, one of my good friends is single, no kids, while I’m married with kids. She makes more than me and obviously has many fewer expenses. But we have a lot in common otherwise. We enjoy each other’s company whether it’s sitting down with a glass of wine (in her amazing new remodeled home) or grabbing an inexpensive Mexican dinner, an art-house movie, or the occasional “nice” dinner out.
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I’m usually the singleton in the crowd and I agree with you — it’s the things you have in common and lifestyle that matter. Not only do many of my friends have a two-income household advantage, often one of those incomes is higher than mine!
But you would never know it when we’re having a barbecue or getting together for coffee. No McMansions or luxury cars, no balking at coupons, buying used or hand-me-downs. They understand that I can’t spend on x because I’m saving for a home or a car because they’ve been there too.
Over the years, I guess I’ve grown apart from people whose values and lifestyle are very different from mine. Most of the time we’ve been able to find common ground though.
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I was thinking the same thing about it pertaining more to people without kids! All our friends spend their time doing the same cheap (or free) things we do. Vacations, cars, and homes might vary wildly, but for the most part those decisions don’t involve our friends anyway.
I will say though, that when somebody loses a job, we do try to cover for them. For instance, we’re doing a trivia night for a local charity in a few weeks with four other couples. We’ve done this night pretty much every year for the last ten years. Two of the couples are really struggling this year due to job losses. Rather than put anyone in an awkward position, my husband and I just bought the whole table so the other couples don’t need to decide between a night out with their friends or staying within their very low budgets.
The whole cost was $200 – my husband and I can well afford that extra $160 we spent to buy everyone else’s tickets. And it’s going to be a fun night. To us, it was worth it. It’s BYOB – and one of the other not struggling couples is bringing the beer and wine.
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I think it’s important to remember that just because a person is single or doesn’t have kids doesn’t mean they have a ton of disposable income. I’m not really sure where people get the idea that singletons and DINKs are living it up because they don’t have kids. The ones I know are saving like crazy because they have big expenses like houses, weddings, kids coming up. (I don’t doubt that many singletons and DINKs are living it up — but so are many families.)
What I find makes a big difference is the spending habits and values of a family, not necessarily its size.
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Totally agree Elizabeth. We are the low-income family in an extremely rich community; it’s taken several years for us to find a scarce few wealthy folks that while they do have money for mansions and expensive summer camps and classes for their kids– they are not dinks and they are loaded– they also do low-cost activities we all share with our kids like swimming (their pool), the beach, camping and hiking (although sometimes we are stretched to do camping and hiking due to supplies, clothing, gear, gas, etc.).
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You’re right. But when you have kids, you seek out other people with kids. And we’re at a point in our lives where our interests are all pretty similar regardless of finances. Homes, cars, and vacations show the disparity in income, but it’s not too visible in other ways.
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I’m not sure who implied that single people or DINKS are better off. The reason I brought this up was because it seems that these people might have more disposable TIME which presents more opportunities to socialize as compared to people with kids.
Having more social opportunities/events presents more decision making as to participate or where to go.
For a family, an evening at the local pool with a pizza delivery is just as likely to be the “entertainment” for a people who makes 3 times as much as we do. Sitting in a football stadium on a Friday night includes families from every income level.
For singles or DINKS, I’m guessing their “entertainment” choices would not include most of the things that are on my list.
But as I mentioned my single friend who DOES make more than me (and has fewer expenses due to no children) shares enough “interest and value-wise” that our friendship presents no awkward issues.
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@Eileen — it was the “many fewer expense” part I think implied money rather than time. I find that some of friends with kids assume I have more disposable income than they do because I’m not paying for a house or for kids. In the meantime, I’m trying to save for a home on one income (while they have two) and keeping on eye on future big expenses — like a small wedding and adopting a child. It really frustrates me when people think I’m living the Sex in the City life. (Of course, I realize that’s not what you’re doing!)
As for time, I don’t think single people necessarily have more free time to social — many of the married with kids people I know are actually more social than I am because they have married with kids people to do things with. It’s challenging not being part of the “wife and mom club”.
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The kid versus no kid thing can be a bigger deal than money/no money. One of my longest friends I ended up taking an indefinite break from, and unfortunately I think alot had to do with difference in our lives since I moved on from graduate school (mainly, choosing to have kids). She was pretty vocally against the thought of me having kids, and tried to talk me out of the second one. she never had kids nor wanted them, and changes that have come out of being a parent (lack of unlimited time to do, whatever, and art stuff, holding down a safe job with regular income, to choosing to live in a neighborhood with a good school district) is met with some kind of scorn or criticism. She seems pretty oblivious of her role in the fact she has extranged herself from pretty much all her marriaged/child burdened friends, but its not for me to tell her. She is a good person but hard for her to see, life does not revolve around her.
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I think this situation might have less to do with having/not having kids, than it does with your friend’s openness to let you live the life you desire. In my case, I’m the single one without children, but I would never dream of telling my friends to not have kids. I’m not sure it would be the right choice for me, but I can see how much they love being parents and am so happy that they are happy!
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If you do not have kids yourself, it can be hard hanging out with people who have their kids with them…..kids crying, fussing, fighting etc. A few hours of that and even me, a grandma, is happy to seek a quiet place.
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I guess I’m pretty lucky. I have friends who make far more than I do, and are much better off financially, but their idea of a good time is hanging around the house having a girls night. I will say that my friends who like the lavish vacations and dinners, myself included, are the ones who really can’t afford it. Fortunately, most of these friends don’t live in the same city so my splurging is limited to when they come into town. And as far as vacations, they know I always say I can’t afford to go, but they still ask.
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Great post Kristin. Great food for thought.
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I had a situation with a friend many years ago. I was visiting him and we went out to dinner followed by drinks and a cab ride back to his house. Along the way, he always picked up the tab. The next morning, he asked for some money to help cover everything. At the time, he was working as a fund-raiser for a charity and I was a low-ranking enlisted in the military. I knew he made more than me, but I think I was assuming that he was making a lot more than me and was not surprised when he picked up the tab. Now I see that he was setting a boundary. I could easily afford to pay my part of the bill, and did so without complaining.
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Great article, Kristin!
We have gone through similar situations with friends and family members over the years. I don’t think I have lost any friends altogether but I know that relationships have been strained. Our situations typically involve other people wanting us to spend crazy amounts of money on entertainment, restaurants, and drinks.
Right now we have little kids so it’s just easy to say we can’t go out and spend money for other reasons. I usually blame it on nap time or not having a babysitter =)
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I see your smiley, but you raise an important issue. I’ve had a few friendships deterioriate after the couple had children, and it’s very sad. My wife and I were very close to one couple, but after they found out they were expecting their first baby, they moved several provinces away to be closer to family. I was saddened, because I was looking forward to being a part of their baby’s life, but was never even given the chance.
Other friendships have suffered similarly after the addition of children. Friends who would used to travel with us or go out to concerts with us or even just hang out on the patio on a hot summer day, sipping a cold beer, slowly began saying “we’d love to, but we can’t because … you know … the kid.”
Whether it’s a strain on their time or their finances, I’ve lost far more friendships to kids than to finances. In my opinion, kids are much more poisonous to relationships (both friendships and marriages) than finances.
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Kevin, I am not saying this is the case for you – but in my experience, my friendships that did not survive my becoming a parent were because those friends expected everything to stay the same, especially the part about spending the same amount and quality of time together. When one becomes a parent, the lifestyle shift is seismic. Any decent parent learns quickly that Junior’s needs come before wants, including the want of getting together with friends just to hang out.
My suggestion for childless people who want to remain friends with those who have children is to find constructive ways to change the friendship so you include the children instead of competing with them. This is admittedly difficult if your friends move away, but if they’re local, get together with them and spend time with their children. My dividing line is when I take DS to the beach; I have friends who I’ll invite along who spend as much (or more) time playing with him as they do socializing with me, and ones that I absolutely won’t include because they expect me to give them my full attention and ignore DS. If the children are infants (or older), offer to babysit. I guarantee you this will go a long way towards preserving your friendship, as long as you accept the change in dynamics.
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What if you don’t like kids?
I run into the problem of friends with kids, and I certainly never complain. I try to be accommodating – we always hang out at my friend’s house, rather than going out; I expect that the kids are always going to be there, and that her attention will be divided, and her time limited.
But what I kinda resent is when *I* have to give attention to the kids, too. I’m not there for them; I’m there to see my friend. Is this something that’s inevitable? Do I have to build a relationship with them, in order to keep the one with my friend?
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Imelda, I do understand how you feel; I have plenty of friends who don’t like kids, and truth is, I’m not thrilled with quite a few of them myself. (It’s easier when you’re the one who can discipline poor behavior!)
But yeah, it does largely come down to “like me, like my kids”. I can make an analogy with a friend of mine who has a dog, and it’s definitely “like me, like my dog.” Any outings must be arranged around the dog’s needs – either time away from home is limited, or the dog must come along. When I’m over, I don’t have to play with the dog per se, but I do have to acknowledge it and pet it a bit. (I’m cut some slack because she knows I generally am not a dog person and don’t like dogs much.) Sometimes she’ll be distracted from conversation or whatever because the dog needs something at that moment (to go out, attention, etc.). But I value this friendship, and I value that the dog is her baby, so in this case I value the dog.
If I wanted nothing to do with the dog and didn’t want to accommodate, then I would accept that she and I could not continue our friendship.
As a parent, I understand that my friends won’t necessarily be into my child (more so when he was young, less so now that he’s an older teenager and interacts well with adults), but they have to accept that his needs come before friendships. (For example, that I will pay for summer camp before going with a friend to Iceland – and yes, that did actually come up, and no, I am not “allowing him to be selfish” because I made this choice.)
You asked, “Do I have to build a relationship with them, in order to keep the one with my friend?” I ask, “Why not? They don’t stay children forever, and you can sometimes create a new friendship that way with someone who eventually is an adult.” Some of my friends are as close to DS as they are to me (especially the ones who play WoW!).
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Imelda, I have had the same problem. I try to give the kids the benefit of the doubt. I found with one friend that I actually quite like her son and am interested to see what kind of person he grows into. (Her daughter, on the other hand, I prefer to avoid.) With another friend, I see him so rarely and his life is so difficult right now, it was worth it to spend time with his four-year-old, since it made my old friend so happy to have us there.
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Imelda, on one level I understand what you mean. I felt awkward around most children before I had my own. But when people talk about not liking kids, I’m always a little taken aback. I mean, you don’t have to be crazy about kids, my own included, but not liking a whole class of people, to which you yourself once belonged? That’s sort of like saying, “I don’t like men. Do I have to build a relationship with my friend’s husband?” You might not like your friend’s husband in particular, but if you don’t like men in general, you need to work on your anti-male bias.
And if you want to remain friends with your friend, you’ll have to learn to deal with her husband on at least some level. Same applies to kids, I think. You don’t have to drool over them and bounce them on your knee, but treating them as human beings is nice.
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Honestly, I have never thought of my kids as poinsonous before!
It’s probably just because people’s priorities sometimes change when they have children. Things that used to be important to me aren’t anymore….like going out all the time. Now that we have kids, I would rather save for my future and theirs. I would rather spend my weekends with them at home watching them grow up. My kids are way more important than my friends.
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I absolutely agree that kids are a much bigger deal than money. It smarts, but it is something you get used to.
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I don’t resent my friends who are having kids. I know the relationship will change and that makes me sad, but it’s what they want and so I’m happy for them. I’ll do what I can to maintain the friendship – I’m not a baby person – but I don’t have high expectations.
I also know it’s a somewhat temporary situation. My friends with older kids have no trouble hanging out and coming to parties occasionally – at least as much as the folks whose lives are busy for other reasons. So I’m sure I’ll see these friends again one day, when they need a breath of adult fresh air. Except maybe the one with twins… she may be busy for quite a while.
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Kevin, I have been there as far as having friends drift away, sometimes for years, after having kids. One thing to keep in mind is that this is the biggest issue when the children are small. Once they are in school, your friends can relax a little. But when their kids are small, they are literally responsible for the lives of little helpless people and that’s just got to come first for them.
I’m sort of confused by all the responses about people who felt like they could only see their friends if the kids were there. I have maintained relationships with all my friends with kids through standing Girls Night Out dinners where their partner watched the kids.
What gives me pause is your description of children as being “poisonous” to friendships. I think if you keep that attitude about people’s families, you might indeed lose those friends but some of it is going to be on you. If you can accept that this is just a shift in the evolution of your friendship, you will probably keep your friends and become that fun person that they want to hang out with when they have time to rediscover themselves.
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I only wish that my bestie who had kids would have even once gotten together with me without the kids. I didn’t have any expectations that her kiddos wouldn’t be around, but it gets hard to have an adult relationship when ever time you see that person you are doing activities/eating foods/ conversing with a toddler. I think people with kids sometimes forget that they can turn into bad friends and they need to put in some effort to maintain adult friendships if they want their friends to put in the effort to like/be around their kids most of the time.
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You could divide my friends with kids into two categories. Those with spouses that take responsibility for the kids when I visit and those who don’t. I realise that I have to show some interest to the kids and that is not a problem. I have also realised that I prefer to visit those that have thoughtful spouses that deal with the kids so that I can talk with my friend without beeing interruptet every minute. These friends are also much more interesting that those that always are taking (as it seams) the whole responsibility for the kids. I am losing touch with these people as the only thing they are talking about is their kids.
I am also trying to have lunch dates instead to avoid the kids.
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I have an aversion to kids, just like some people have an aversion to dogs or cats. When I was younger and one of my friends became a parent, I scale down the friendship to email and rare visits only because I know I won’t enjoy spending time with them any more. I don’t want to hear them talk about their kids endlessly and I don’t want to be subjected to the constant demands for attention, noise, smells, etc. that young kids create. By the same token, I would understand if someone felt that way about my dogs. So I really only pursue relationships with people who definitely do not/will not have kids, and who like animals.
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Hey Holly!
Yeah, I’ve learned to just flat out say, “Sorry, but I can’t afford this right now.” Whether I’m really broke, saving up, or I just don’t want to afford it…friends don’t ever ask, they just understand.
Things like birthdays or celebrations are a bit harder to say ‘no’ too, though.
As for the kids conversation, I have a friend who has kids, and we still hang out. We just usually do kid-oriented things. It helps that her kids are pretty awesome company. I can’t imagine resenting a friend for having kids, but then again, I didn’t know her before she had them.
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I think that part of it- as someone mentioned above- can be about the particular ages of the kids. My kids are really babies- ages 3 and 1. They need a lot of attention and there are a lot of things that I cannot do because bedtime is 8pm, for instance.
I used to hang out with people who did not have kids before I became a parent. I will admit that I used to get annoyed when they couldn’t go out or spend money. Now that I am on the other side of the fence, it makes perfect sense.
Having a family has changed my mindset about a lot of things- the way I save money, the way I spend money, and the way I feel about life in general. I also care a lot more about sustainability and the planet than I used to because I want to leave a place behind for my children and grandchildren to live.
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I am not sure everyone is simply talking about going to the bar at 10 pm at night when you should be at home with your children. I think we are talking about me the fact that I just drove 45 minutes to come see you and all I get to do is talk to your daughter about legos. Not that I mind! Really! But it seems like kids interrupt and are given license to do so, when I could be at home doing ten other things that I need to get done.
I think it is just the idea that their time is more valuable and important because they are Parents and Responsible for Another Human Being that gets me. It really isn’t about the money.
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I know what you mean- I really do. I just think it’s hard to understand how time consuming having toddlers can be until you’ve been there. At any given moment, my one year old might be trying to eat crayons or climbing up onto the fireplace. My three year old might ask 25 questions in a span of 5 minutes. As crazy as it can make me, that is just the way they are. She is being taught to stand there and wait to be noticed and not to interrupt…but the key words are “being taught.” Unfortunately, she wasn’t born with any manners.
With that being said, this is why we usually don’t go out with friends unless we have a babysitter. Luckily, we usually get a babysitter or grandma lined up once a month or so. That way I can give my other relationships some of my attention…because it is almost impossible to do with my kids around.
I think the ideal situation when you have little kids is to be friends with other people who have little kids. My best friend’s kids love playing with my kids so we can get together easily and everyone stays entertained.
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Honestly, I dislike this topic:
1. Its been done several times before. not much can be said. Booorrring…..
2. Do people really hang around with people like this?
Come on, friends are friends cause they like each others’ company and interests, not cause they go to resstuarants and spend money together.
3. Who picks up the tab for able bodied adults? If that’s acceptable now, I am going to start making me friends pay. How rude to have someone else pay for you.
4. Just don’t attend every get together.
A close brunch of my friends loves those $$$$$ resturants where the meal is $400-500 per person.
I can’t afford it – so what? I just don’t go with them.
Our friendship is based on support and enjoyment of each other’s personalities, not the fact we go to a restaurant together.
Maybe the people with these issues should get some real friends who like them, not their finances.
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Hehe…for this topic being played out, you sure did have a lot of things to say about it!
I see what you’re saying about friendships not being based on going to restaurants. But when you’re in the early stages of a friendship, oftentimes you do “go out” a lot. Also, some friends just really love bars/restaurants and don’t spend much time at home. I still consider them true friends, but like someone else said, we just have different ideas of how to spend our lives (and money).
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My late parents lived in a neighborhood that was less than what they could easily afford. Their neighbors seemed to resent that they could travel extensively when they (the neighbors)could barely afford to vacation once a year. Also neighbors noticed their more expensive car. It’s something to consider when dealing with others.
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I figure it’s best to socialize at the financial level the person who makes less money can afford. When I made more money and I wanted to hang out with friends who didn’t make as much, we’d do less expensive things–dinners at each other’s homes, rent movies, go to free events in town, etc.
As far as trips go, I haven’t been on a trip (except for work) in six years, so. . .that’s probably moot for me, though I’m happy to live vicariously through my friends, as long as they don’t expect me to try and keep up.
I’d never expect anyone to pay for me, even if they made a lot more money–they just better not expect me to go to expensive places all the time. It makes me feel really self-conscious. It’s one thing if someone wants to treat you occasionally–sometimes I’d do that for a friend who was in a tight situation and vice-versa. “I’m really craving Indian food and I haven’t seen you in a dog’s age, let’s go out and get some, my shout, so we can catch up” is one thing. But expecting someone to treat every time? Yeeesh.
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Kristen brings up an interesting point about parents always paying. Mine do this too. I wonder if it is a generational thing? Do Gen-X’ers parents also cover them? Baby boomers? I doubt it. Yet I don’t think our relationship will ever get to a point where we can go out to dinner normally together and have me treat. I have done it a couple times, much to their amusement, even though they know I can definitely “afford” it. there is something else going on there.
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Same here (I am kind of on the border between Gen X and Gen Y). I see my family about once a month, sometimes twice. They almost always pay for food, but once in a while I will pick up the tab. They appreciate it but don’t expect it regularly.
They also still spend an exorbitant amount on my Christmas and birthday gifts, which sometimes makes me uncomfortable since they are 5-6 years from retirement. However, my mom takes great pleasure out of buying things for others so it’s hard to object.
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Haha – I’m Gen X (43) and whenever I visit my parents, my dad always gives me $150 for gas.
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I make 2x as much as my mom and my husband and I probably make 3-4x as much as my parents. My sister makes more than I do. I stopped letting my mom pay and lectured my sister on how she could NOT let our mother keep treating her. My mom has finally gotten used to it.
I can’t lecture my in-laws like I can my family, so we do it about 50/50 but it always takes planning and/or sneakiness on our parts for us to pay the bill, which is additional stress and effort (but we do it anyway). We’re also more likely to take them places where we order at the counter so they can’t pay for us. (Back before we had money, we’d make food for them, but they prefer eating out to our home cooking.)
We’re Gen X, my sister is Gen Y. Parents are all boomers.
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I’m apparently the only parent here (retired with middle age kids) who got totally SICK of paying for all their restaurant meals with us. Two of our three kids have NEVER so much as bought us a hamburger.
I’ve tried to change the boundaries in other ways but it bred a huge amount of resentment, but I guess that’s a topic for another post.
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How terribly sad.
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I pay about half the time with my mom – we generally pay our own tabs, but occasionally we or my folks will do an invitation and say “and i’d like to pay”. My dad likes to throw money around so he generally pays, but we see him very rarely. My in-laws like to pay, they used to come visit my partner & take him and all his friends out and pay. But in recent years we had The Talk about how we make as much money as them these days and want to be grownups and pay our own way part of the time, and they took it in good humor.
My little brother never pays. For anything. He’s visiting right now and it’s reminded me that this is how it has always been. I want to go back in time and burn every copy of Love Your Forever and The Giving Tree that my mom was ever near.
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HAHAHA! Yes, the giving tree. Not very popular in my house. ‘Mommy, what does “say doe mass oh kiss tick mean”?’
http://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/childrens-literature-we-hate/
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I think parents like to pay because it makes them feel like they’re still parents.
Also, my parents hate when I give them expensive gifts. They like the gift itself, but any possible joy they could get from it is obscured by the fact that their daughter spent too much money. As my mom once said, “anytime I look at it, I just think of how much money you spent.”
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“As my mom once said, “anytime I look at it, I just think of how much money you spent.””
The only reply I can think of is, “So Mom, does that mean every time you look at me, all you can think of is how much money you spent?”
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Gen X here and we just got back from a trip to see family, we paid for breakfast with my parents and paid for lunch with Mr. Sam’s Mom and Step-Dad, paid for fixing to make dinner at home at his Mom’s house and we paid for dinner with Mr. Sam’s Dad. So we picked up the bill 3 times on the trip.
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It might be generational – or just family politics.
My DH and I are Gen-X and when we visit my Boomer parents they refuse to let us spend money on anything. (They even balk at letting us fill up the gas tank when we borrow their car while visiting them!) Over the years, I’ve watched DH and my dad “battle it out” for who gets to pay the check. Thank God, they both approach it with a sense of humor.
We’ve also mastered the art of sneaking away to chat with waitstaff and pay the bill before it ever gets to the table
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Yeah I’m GenX and my dad frequently pays for stuff. (I’m the ‘poor’ one in the family – dad and bro are engineers, sister’s other half is a computer scientist, I married an actor.) Funnier, my husband is a late boomer (born 1958) and his dad ALWAYS pays when we go out.
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No matter what my mother always treats. I don’t know if its because she knows she makes way more than I do (with a fully paid off home, no car note, etc) and/or she knows I have medical/health care expenses on top of my lower income or if its just because she wants to treat.
When she came to visit me in Portland last year, I treated her for brunch when I picked her up from the airport. She still insisted on paying the tip and everything else until she went home.
I don’t think that’s every going to change.
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My dad makes significantly more now than he did when we were growing up and has absolutely no debt. His expenses are also significantly less now that he is a widower. I think it is a point of pride for him to be able to write me a check for my birthday or Christmas at this stage. I’ve certainly never asked for money from him, but I think it would be condescending to refuse it. He’s so full of himself when he does it!
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Gen X/Gen Y cusp here… My parents used to treat all the time, but now we share. There’s sort of an unspoken system.
1) If it’s just me and my mom, I pay.
2) If it’s me and both my parents, then they pick it up if it’s dinner. I pick it up if it’s breakfast/lunch/brunch/coffee/etc.
3) If it’s me, my parents, and my partner we trade-off if it’s a nicer meal, go dutch if it’s casual.
4) If I invited them out for a nice dinner, we pay, but they always chip in to cover wine or something.
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My parents still insist on paying most of the time, as do my husband’s parents. I’m Gen Y and he’s on the cusp of Gen X/Gen Y (I’m 28, he’s nearly 32). His parents are local, while mine live in my hometown a couple of states away. We’ve been married four years.
We’re DINKs, and I’m not really sure where our income falls compared with theirs right now. All of us are solidly middle class, though, with no overly expensive tastes.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times either set of parents has let us pick up the tab. Each time required us to really stand our ground to the point of almost feeling guilty for denying them the opportunity to treat us! I think (and hope) that they just really like doing it.
If my current educational pursuits pay off and our income increases significantly in the next few years, I can certainly see pushing harder to foot the bills. But for now, I’ll just let them do what seems to make them happy.
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I’m 31, with two slightly younger brothers. My parents also liked to continue to treat us, but in the last few years, I’ve taken to picking up the tab on at least one meal per weekend visit. (One brother and I live far away, so we only see our parents three or four times a year.) My mom was laid off over a year ago, and my dad was just laid off this summer. Despite their saving an emergency fund and teaching us children good personal finance habits, I am seeing their financial house crashing down. I owe my good start in life and much of my success to them, and so I am doing all I can to help them out at this time.
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When I am out with my parents we take turns to pay the bill so I pay about every third meal out.
My mother insists on buying things for me but I feel silly taking money from my parents (as I make more money than they do) so I refuse to take it is not a birthday or christmas present.
If I buy groceries to them I refuse to take money or something else that is not that expensive.
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Same here–my mother will occasionally take me clothes shopping, or pay for me to have my hair done at a nice salon. But she doesn’t give me cash unless it’s my birthday or Christmas, and then it might be $100. I guess this way, it feels like she’s treating me to a nice extra, rather than actually supporting me.
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I’m either Gen X or Gen Y depending on what source you use, but as soon as I graduated college & started a decent job, I was expected to start picking up the tabs. My parents look at it, that they took care of me growing up, and now it’s my turn to start taking care of them. This means that I also have a much greater say on where we go out.
Thus, everyone’s responses is so unusual to me!
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Gen X here too.
On our own my husband and I rarely eat out, and almost always at an inexpensive restaurant.
In contrast, my in laws like to eat out, and at pretty nice restaurants when they visit (once a month probably) and after some early awkward attempts to pay, we let them treat. They also are much more financially comfortable than we are. Admittedly this is a nice treat for us, and we are always very grateful. But we also don’t expect it and always offer to make, or help make dinner (the option we can afford). It will be interesting to see if their spending habits change when they retire…
My parents also usually treat, maybe because dinner normally includes all three kids and their SO’s. Though we occasionally pay when it’s just the four of us (though even that takes some finagling). In contrast to the in laws, we are all very frugal, and go to less expensive restaurants, order less expensive meals and drinks, and even use coupons
Actually we are most likely to cook at home, but that isn’t the question. They also live much further away, so meals are much less frequent.
I really think both sets of parents seem to get some pleasure or satisfaction from treating. And I think as long as we don’t expect them to treat, don’t abuse their generosity (porterhouse and 20yr old scotch?), provide alternatives that we can afford, and are appreciative — it seems okay to me.
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I think there has to be some sensitivity on the part of the higher-income friend as well. It shouldn’t just be up to the lower income person to “have the talk” to straighten things out.
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I’ve been experiencing a bit of this. Back when I was broke, my friends were doing well, financially. Now two of my best friends have had divorces the past couple of years and are struggling. I’m doing much better financially and its hard because much of their hardship could have been prevented. One makes more than double what I do but still lives paycheck to paycheck. I think we’ve all drifted apart in more ways than just the financial. I completely changed careers and now we find there isn’t as much to talk about. Yes, we all used to work together once upon a time. Seems like once you are out of college, the bulk of your friends are from work.
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I love this article, it deals with things we often don’t want to recognize but happen nevertheless.
Friendship is predicated on equality– if you can create or maintain that in spite of income differences, then the friendship thrives. Sometimes it’s money, sometimes it’s something else.
I just remembered the movie “Y Tu Mamá También,” when (spoiler alert, but this came out ages ago) the class differences between the two friends suddenly rear their ugly head when they run into a conflict.
There’s another side of the whole issue though (I’m loving that Morrissey video, haaa haaa haaa). Which is that the success of people around you can spur you to work harder/ better/ seek new opportunities/ try new things. I’m not afraid of having friends doing better than me– if anything, I can learn from them.
Actually, come to think of it, a friend of ours just got a big grant to work on a project–and guess who is she hiring to work with her and share the spoils? The people who didn’t resent her win. Yeah… Friends, please– get rich, and take us along the ride with you!
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For a second there, I was confusing your movie reference with the movie “Todo Sobre Mi Madre”
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Yes! Part of the reason I hate envy so much is that it keeps you from being happy for your friends. But like you said, you can transform envy into inspiration. I love that
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I dislike the use of Envy and Jealousy interchangeably, as they are really not (I’m seeing it often throughout the comments). The former implies that you wish to possess something awarded to or achieved by another whereas the latter implies a feeling of resentment or ill-will as a result of someone else’s possessions or achievements. To me, it’s an important distinction. To envy a friend’s position isn’t an evil act, you just wish you were in the same position, and (IMO) allows you to still be happy for them and not detract from their “win.” To be jealous of a friend’s position, however, implies an ill-will towards your friend that equates to believing that “it’s not fair,” “that you should have it instead or also,” or “if you can’t have, that you cannot be happy for those who do.” Sorry for the vocabulary lesson…
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If a friend expects you to pay for dinner because you make more money, that person is not a true friend. He/she is taking advantage. Now, I understand the lower-income friend being annoyed if the wealthier friend is always suggesting expensive restaurants, or loading up on drinks and multiple courses and then wanting to split the check in half. But expecting a friend to treat you to a cheap dinner, and actually feeling entitled to it? No way.
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Kristen, I too loved your article; it’s a great topic. In my case, I lost a friendship at least in part because of differences in how we handled our incomes, which were about the same. (There were other, underlying reasons too, related to different cultures and our respective marriages.) “Jenny” and I had boys the same age who liked each other so we got together frequently for playdates; our family incomes were probably about the same, and $ for outings usually meant McDonald’s or similar. But Jenny had a lot of problems with credit card debt, opening new cards to shift balances to pay for old cards (this was before the Great Recession), and spending for new clothing (for 3 boys), new furniture, and a brand-new minivan with little money down. Not that I didn’t have any credit card debt, but I didn’t misuse it to nearly the same extent. Over time, she realized I handled money better than she did and was jealous that we “had so much more.” (No new furniture, clothes, or minivan though.) The final straw was when we bought a house, because Jenny coveted her own house instead of renting an apartment from her in-laws. She’s refused to speak to me since, even though I tried hard to be low-key about our buying it because I knew she would feel bad. I don’t mind so much losing her friendship per se, but I regret that the boys lost their friendship as well.
My sister recently told me about losing a long-standing friendship over money as well. In this case, her “BFF” felt she’d been shortchanged and actually took money out of Sis’s purse to make it up. End of friendship.
Regarding parents, when Mom was alive, she insisted on picking up the tab at eateries even though she was on a very limited income. I resisted for a long time until I realized she was determined to spend/blow the money regardless of circumstance. Therefore, she could spend it on me, or spend it on scam artists, or buying things she would give away because she really didn’t want them (not specifically for a charity, just because), or even just lose it from her purse. I decided then that under those conditions, I justified having her “waste” the money on me, making it clear I would pay if she wanted. I didn’t think it was a generational thing; I thought it was Mom’s amazing ability to fritter money away like dust in the wind.
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It’s sad that your friend would let that get in the way of your friendship, I’m sorry to hear that.
With people who have been friends a while, I feel like it’s usually more about those underlying issues you mentioned and less about the money. Maybe the money just makes it worse or is used as a scapegoat or something…I dunno.
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I think Jenny’s issues with me came under the umbrella of “lifestyle disparity” and that covered more ground than just income or how we handled money. If $ had been the ONLY disparity, then we would probably still have a friendship, or if $ had been the same, she might have continued to overlook other disparities (family background, neighborhood lived in, state of marriage, & even number of kids).
But I honestly think the biggest disparity was in whether we were happy with what we had. I definitely wanted to improve our family’s lives and reduce problems, but at any given moment I was (and am) reasonably content with what I have. Jenny never seemed happy with her lot in life. Life experience had taught me that there are three basic approaches to any situation: accept it, change it, or leave it (or a combination of them). Jenny couldn’t seem to do any of the three so she wanted a friend who was in the same boat to validate her inability to deal effectively with her life. That’s just not my style.
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When I was younger, I always was the person that picked up the check. This had to do with the fact that I was still a people pleaser and then lived in a more urban area with better restaurant choices.
Now that I have many more years of life experience, therapy and common sense under my belt; this is a non-issue. I’ve always been able to afford to eat out and pay for others to do it with me, but now I am content to live frugally and do as I wish.
My friends are happy to join me in a low-cost activity or eat at home. It is now more important that we get together to see each other to take some time out from our busy lives. Going out to eat usually means a coffee, dessert or cheap meal together since we live in a place where the choices for great meals out are limited.
It doesn’t matter where you eat or how much it costs, friends should be pleased to be with each other.
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I have dear friends who are stay at home moms that are married to super successful business men. Both of them have second homes down here in Florida. So while I have some anxiety that I’m not keeping up with them, I enjoy spending time with them at their vacation homes and living their life which is not my life (i.e. shopping on Louis Vuitton store).
I have other friends who were unemployed for an extended period of time and who are now employed but still struggling. And then I have friends who are basically my peers. For the folks who are long term friends, its important for me to maintain those friendships and I do. When my rich friends are here in Florida I take advantage of their hospitality and spend time with them at their vacation homes and I see them and my friends who are not doing as well financially when I go up north for a visit. Since my long term friends are not living close to me its easier for me to ignore the disparity in finances since its not a day to day thing.
For my friends who live closer to me, I recently posted about folks that I feel are our peers but they recently upgraded to a McMansion. It is weird to see people who I feel are on the same financial level move past me and show that off. But, since its not a best friendship the move to McMansionville doesn’t really impact our friendship except to make me feel like I’m not keeping up but that is okay because I don’t want to keep up, I want to pay off our mortgage and not trade up.
http://adventures-of-sam.blogspot.com/2012/07/perils-of-keeping-up.html
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My wife and I are nearing retirement, and are now empty nesters. As such, we FINALLY can start doing many things we put off previously, such as travel. So now, when we get back from a two week vacation in Europe, all the people we want to talk to and share with are smiling blandly and saying “It must be nice.” After a quick assessment, we are now convinced that we must start looking for friends who are at the same place in life that we are. In other words, we are looking for people who can keep up financially and won’t, as the article says, expect us to pay their way. We can afford to go ourselves, but not to pay for others on top of that. Sadly, those who are financially similar have school age children (or younger), and those who are empty nesters are barely managing their bills. I so envy those who have good friends who can share good times without triggering guilt or needing someone else to foot the bill so they can be included. I know this might sound “selfish”, but what is the purpose of planning your financial life to allow things like travel if your friends pout and say “It must be nice”?
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Totally agree here. My husband and I just made the average American income but we handled our money well. We’re now retired and live in a modest retirement area, but we travel like crazy. I really have to play it down because it’s clear people envy us.
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I’m with you!! Though not retired, I hate when I get snide remarks for being able to afford nice things or have a savings account. Why should I have to apologize for managing my money well? Especially when it usually means that earlier on you sacrificed a lot in the name of savings.
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I hate when people attempt reduce your happiness to “It must be nice.” How condescending and selfish, especially when you’ve worked hard and shifted your priorities (and they have not shifted theirs) in order to afford something important to you.
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We’re 49/52 and planning to retire in about 8 years. Kids are 11/18. We make good incomes and so do most of our friends and relatives. The difference I see is mostly in where the priorities for spending fall in each household. Oddly is seems to work because we all accept that we have very different priorities so we don’t begrudge where/how the others spend their money. We want to retire early and still take a major trip every year with the kids. To accomplish that we buy used cars with cash, rarely eat out, get our 3 TV channels free from an antena. In our bizare little world our house is nearly paid off and worth somewhere in the $600-700k range. My 12 yr old Honda is probably worth $1500 but I’ll drive it until it dies and then get another 3yr old one. We each have a couple of work collegues who give us the “must be nice” line after every holiday. In my case it’s all I can do not to laugh. She says it with a straight face and conveniently forgets about her $600 car payment, designer clothes, and buying lunch EVERY day at the office. Clearly she too could take a holiday but she hasn’t chosen to make it a priority but that doesn’t seem to register.
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At the risk of sounding like a fangirl, I’m totally digging Kristin’s posts!
Unfortunately, I’ve been on the “poor” side of the spectrum. When I was broke, I ended up resenting some of my friends who had the important-sounding titles and big salaries (and who worked very hard and took advanced degrees to get those titles). Now that time has passed, I realize that this was all on me – *I* was the one who made it an issue. If I could go back in time, I’d totally do things differently with these particular relationships.
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I feel this is always an interesting balance.
My friends and I mostly don’t talk about money. But we mostly seem to enjoy doing similar things – happy hour, brunch, parties at someone’s home – so disparity, if it exists, doesn’t come up. No one has a problem with less-expensive options.
My family always spends a lot more than I do, and it can be strange. My sister and I were talking about a much-looked-forward-to book that’s coming out next month; I have it on hold at the library while she has it on pre-order at Amazon. My dad does our taxes; he says we make plenty and should spend on xyz (nice dinners, a housekeeper, for example) but it certainly doesn’t feel to me like we have the money for that!
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I have an issue with family members. My sister-in-law and her husband seem to think that my husband and I are just rolling in money, which we’re not, and therefore resent us for the money that they think we have. It doesn’t make much sense to me because I worked all through undergrad, worked through law school, and my husband is working his way through undergrad. We made our choices, she chose to get married right out of high school and have two children before she was 25, and never had any more education after high school. She and her husband also buy brand-new cars every 3-4 years, whereas my husband and I drive our cars until they die. The strangest thing is that they actually make fun of us (we’ve heard through other family members) for having a budget, but again, appear to resent us for having money. Bizarre. I don’t feel a huge loss in not having contact with them, because I don’t care much for them for other reasons, but it is sad that their perceptions and envy have caused a rift between brother and sister.
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With friends, the biggest difference is whether they have defined benefit pension plans (we have no pension plan other than our own investments) rather than actual income (those who have pensions have way more disposable income than we do).
Family has actually been the harder situation. When siblings (and siblings-in-law) want to spend huge amounts together at Xmas time (let’s buy Mom & Dad a big-screen TV or send them on a trip), that was really difficult to deal with when I was a SAHM (actually, I’m still home!). When 3 siblings all want to spend hundreds of dollars on a gift and want you to go in on it, that’s a much bigger pressure than being invited out to dinner at a pricey restaurant. The latter is easy to get out of. The former requires honesty and ends up with hard feelings all around.
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I can completely relate to this post. My husband and I had female friend that we love dearly. She is on disability and works part time so her finances were always strained. My husband and I have both had times in our past when we were the ones without money so we knew how it felt. Whenever we went out with her we always paid her way, happily so.
Why did we stop seeing her so much? Because she never, ever reciprocated. I am not saying she needed to take us out to a five star restaurant, but she wouldn’t even make spaghetti for us, or invite us over to her house for coffee and store bought cookies, or slap together some bologna sandwiches and have us eat it them in the local park. We would have been happy doing any of those things.
So, I will say that if you are the “poorer” one in a relationship do something, no matter how little you think it is, to reciprocate. I think that as long as you do that you will l continue to be on equal footing with your true friends.
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This is such great advice. It really is the gesture that matters. Sometimes if a generous friend is determined to treat me, I’ll insist on paying the tip. Or I’ll offer to pick up a favorite coffee drink and bring it over to a friend’s house.
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I read an article once that suggested that when a friend unexpectedly and even frequently “treated” you to something, you put your share in savings as if you had spent it and then, once a little has accumulated, pick up the tab for them. I liked that suggestion, especially as a gentle rebuff to those who would say, “but I can’t afford to do that for them” because, guess what? You CAN do something… precisely up to what you would have spent on yourself! (Though it doesn’t work if that person feels entitled to receive the treat). Just a thought, in addition to the other suggestions.
In general, it’s about the thought and doing something kind for your friends/family that makes them feel appreciated. It’s not about the money.
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DH and I generally take turns being the “hosts” with our close friends. One friend is kind of manic about never being in anyone’s debt. She can’t stand “owing” me $5 for lunch.
At our age (and with most of our friends being DINKs like us) we’re long past the sort of issues that arise in a person’s 20s, and none of us are hurting for money.
But we’ve learned that in order to keep some relationships close, we have to be the organizers and sometimes that means we’re the ones paying. We’re okay with that.
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I actually just ended a friendship over this….because my friend made so much less than me. It didn’t bother me at first, but I could never call her up and say, let’s take the kids here (cause she didn’t have a car), or let’s go to the zoo on half price day (cause she didn’t have any money). Even inviting her to have lunch at my house got to be too much because she always felt indebted to me for feeding her grilled cheese (yeah, I’m a highroller). I didn’t care about the money disparity; I needed a friend far more. But her pride required her to repay me equally for everything, which she couldn’t. So we went our different ways. I hated ending it because it gets harder and harder to make friends the older I get.
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From someone on the other end, it really does hurt. I am in the *exact* same situation as your friend was (no car, no money, nothing), and I have no friends either, partly because it’s awkward for them, and me (I’m exactly like your friend, I feel indebted).
So people like her and I….just end up being alone.
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I could not have said it better myself. Doing everything on the cheap gets a little old after a while when they actually have money to spend and you don’t.
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I hope you communicated your feelings before you let the friendship drift away. While she clearly wanted to do something to pay you back, did she know that for you, her friendship itself and her ability to listen to you and be there for you WAS the payment back? If you didn’t tell her this explicitly and you miss the friendship, call her up and tell her how you miss her and aren’t sure how you drifted apart. Tell her the value you place on the friendship itself. None of us want to feel like we are a burden on somebody dear to us; we all want to walk with our heads held high. She just may not have known that her contribution was the the fact that she was an amazing friend
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Excellent post! This is something more and more people are struggling with, I think. I have dealt with this gap before and dealt with it by being honest with my friends who are more financially independent at the moment. It isn’t always easy, but honesty does seem to help.
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I have been fortunate in my friendships with new parents. The main complaint I see with non vs new parents is that the new parent becomes fixated on the child, to the exclusion of all else in life. Yes, your life changes. Yes, I welcome the child into a relationship that evolves as the child grows; it is often a delight to see them mature, and to know that as a significant adult in their life, I have been able to provide guidance and love and be a sounding board.
But there is a world out there, and if you spend too much time talking about your kid(s), you will lose your friends. This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with focus.
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Something similiar is starting to happen to me, but with sisters. I have way more disposable income than my two sisters. We all have good college degrees, but I chose a more lucrative career.
I think what is making it worse is that I am the youngest so that it is upsetting the balance of power in the family.
I am not sure what can be done. I obviously cannot drift apart and my sisters are going to notice my trip to France.
Unfortunately, I think it will become pronounced as we grow older. Even with my trips, I am saving more for retirement. (Fortunately, my sisters are finacially sound so I will never have to bail them out.)
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I wouldn’t imagine that money would create an issue in a family simply because 1 sibling might make or save more. What families end up having all siblings make the same amount of money anyway?
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I’d suggest that in most cases of good relationships existing within a context of financial inequality, the affluent party tend to be people who’d match the profile described in The Millionaire Next Door — i.e. people who’ve earned their wealth, appreciate it, take care of it, and don’t tend to participate in too many activities they would consider wasteful or excessive. In other words, they don’t tend to outwardly seem that different.
I would bet that Warren Buffet successfully maintains some close friendships under these circumstances.
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I’d suggest that in most cases of good relationships existing within a context of financial inequality, the affluent party tend to be people who’d fit the profile described in The Millionaire Next Door — i.e. people who’ve earned their wealth, appreciate it, take care of it, and don’t tend to participate in too many activities they would consider wasteful or excessive. In other words, they don’t tend to outwardly seem that different.
I would bet that Warren Buffet successfully maintains some close friendships under these circumstances.
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Excellent topic! More like this please (an article written from a person who has grown to be a lot richer than his/her friends would be a nice follow up).
I think this can also be a big issue when you start dating someone and your incomes are multiples apart.
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I think this can also be a big issue when you start dating someone and your incomes are multiples apart.
This is why I rarely date (not a preference, its the way it is). There’s nothing more awkward than having someone who is better off than you across the table and you having to explain your situation.
That happens more often than not.
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Tell me about it. I don’t date either (not that anyone asks). Not having a car, or any steady income, and having to live on charity, tends to put a damper on the romance.
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Very interesting subject. Husband and I lost a whopping 30 kilos(!) each on weight, and it definitely makes our overweight friends feel guilty and a little weird… and maybe, I feel a little strange now with them too, having had that moment of personal “enlightenment” to get the diet started and then the persistence to keep doing it for many months. I moved from the Fat Lady camp into the Sexy Woman camp, and dress differently and well, live and think a bit differently than before.
Unfortunately, I don’t yet have a lot of weight in money
but I admit that I try to keep closer to the people with money by now than to the people without money – many of our friends have a low income and I don’t mind, but I feel that when I compare us to them, I won’t have the courage to move forward, moneywise. I tend to feel guilty for having more money – and that although we’re far from rich. I try to raise my income so that we can acquire land (where some of our low-income friends can live with us), so it’s a good goal for us all but I need that money mindset for now and it won’t develop when I’m too “poor” in my head :/ It’s complicated…
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I struggle with seeing friends make poor financial decisions and ending up with no cash and then not being able to come to group events because of it. It’s their decision, but don’t try to talk me out of having fun because I planned for it and you didn’t.
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Lack of money is a huge reason why I have very few friends. I am extremely poor because of super-low earning power (I am extremely frugal and a saver as well), so I have very few friends. I can’t afford friends. I can’t afford to go to weddings, birthday parties, movies or anything. I don’t even have a car, so I can’t drive to where friends are.
I also can’t afford to date anyone, and it’s unlikely anyone would want to date me either.
How do I deal with not being able to afford friends? During the free time that I do have, I hang out alone in my room, and surf the net. The few friends I do have all live over 500 miles away, and communication is limited to a few emails every month. It’s definitely a lonely existence, which is part of why I get so irritated when people smugly say “Money can’t buy happiness”. That is definitely not true. Money most certainly can buy a bit of happiness, especially when you have hardly anything at all. It just cannot buy joy.
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Whether you think you can have friends without money or you think you can’t have friends without money, you are right either way. There was a time when I relied on friends’ wheels to pick me up and to take me home. Things we did for free included going to the beach, going to the lake, taking a hike, acting like goofy on the park playground, walking the mall, playing football and softball. If you have the time and money to spend your free time surfing the net, couldn’t you spend that time getting a second part-time job? That job may lead to new friendships. I think attitude makes all the difference.
I do agree with you that money CAN buy happiness. However, use of the work “can” is important because it’s not a guarantee. You can have all the money in the world and still be the most miserable, lonely person in it. Again, it is attitude that changes everything.
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My situation is a fairly unusual one. I live in an extremely small town in the middle of a huge desert, in a state where most everyone is of one religion. If you’re not part of that religion, you’ll have a tough time finding work, especially with no transportation. It’s such a small town that we don’t even have a Target. Or a Kmart. Or a Best Buy. Or anything that you’re used to seeing. There are no malls, no beach, no “park” in a normal sense (just a small patch of grass next to the main road with some picnic tables), etc.
I live with my parents, in a house that’s pretty far away from anything job-related. I did apply at the truck stop that’s within a mile of our house, and was not even called for an interview. Friends are extremely hard to make here if you don’t belong to a ‘ward’. I will not convert just to fit in.
What I did do is take out FAFSA loans, and am attending college classes for an Accounting degree, Bachelor’s and Master’s. It’s a very small college, and I need to borrow my parent’s car to get there (I try to take online classes when they’re offered). It’s not easy to find people with like interests at the college either….most are married with children (you would not believe how many children these people have at super-young ages…it’s part of their religion), some are polygamous, and again, they only associate with people of their religion, for the most part.
I think I’ve given you enough information that you can pinpoint exactly where I live, and if you knew any sort of insider information about this state, you’d understand a lot more. As soon as I can get my Master’s degree (in Spring 2014), I can move, and hopefully do all those things you suggested, with success.
Oh, and edit: Where the money comes into this! I lost a lot of my friends when I had to leave the state where most of them were, and move back in with the parents, because my former career went downhill and I was broke. Losing money and not having money trapped me in this situation. Only money (gained from having a good job that I’ll have find in another state) can get me out of this situation.
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Admittedly I know nothing of your circumstance, but there are probably like-minded/interested people you could join for activities (I realize no car might make that difficult).
Where I live there are hiking groups (I think some operate via meet-up, but I haven’t looked lately) and other free activities. Very hard to make suggestions w/o knowing your interests and/or limitations. But certainly cost shouldn’t hold you back from every activity.
I’d also suggest volunteer work (though a second job is a good idea too). Even if you don’t develop friendships outside of that, you’d have interaction with others at a Food Bank (for example) and know you are making a difference to boot.
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Thanks for your suggestions. I just wrote a long comment about my limitations in the comment above yours. Not having transportation of my own is a big problem, since this town is very small, in the middle of a desert, and I’m in a remote area of the town. The even bigger problem is the demographics here, as I explained in the above comment.
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I think the #1 problem with financial inequity among friends is the Jones-ing issue. You may have a house or a car or a wardrobe you’re happy with, but when you have friends who are more well off than you and notice items they have, suddenly, your own desire is sparked or you have a chance to experience how much better the next model is. Or perhaps your wealthy friends are talking about their last amazing vacation and you realize you haven’t had a vacation away from home in a while, so you book a more affordable vacation–not because you had planned to take one before but because the idea was planted based on your friendship with more wealthy friends.
I think we all have times like this: you admire your friend for having perfectly manicured nails and decide to spurge on one yourself. The problem is catching it can be hard because we’re not often aware of when a friend’s idea has planted within our own mind. However, retailers are seeing a distinct correlation in friendships and buying habits. Business schools are really getting their new graduates trained in this area. I have strong suspicions that this is one of the reasons companies are really pushing the Facebook and giving good deals if you “like” a product on FB
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A big chunk of Juliet Schor’s research and writing is on this topic – our spending is very much influenced by our friends and other social circles, sometimes even when we don’t realize it.
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That’s a really interesting point. I always thought of “keeping up with the Joneses” as being a conscious effort to buy bigger and better, but I can definitely think of times where an idea has been planted and money is spent, not because you are trying to keep up but like you said, just because an idea was planted.
Very interesting.
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so true … my bro just bought a Vitamix and now every visit to their house involves drinking ultra-healthy ultra-yummy smoothies! So now I am Jonesing for a Vitamix ($400!)
Before he bought it I didn’t even know what a vitamix was and was perfectly content with the smoothies I could make in my $30 food-processor!!
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Not to go too far off topic but used is the way to go when it comes to Vitamix blenders. The one I purchased used is almost 40 years old and works like its brand new. I’ve had my eye on Vitamix blenders for years and I finally gave in.
Of course I wanted a brand new one too and fortunately I was gifted one unexpectedly recently. Having the used one really gave me a chance to determine if investing in a new one was worth it (or accepting the gift). Its something I use on a daily basis for multiple uses and in a variety of ways. Its more of an appliance than a “blender”.
There are many people who buy them on impulse, but don’t know WHY they are buying it so they end up on eBay or yard sales – I’m sure you can find a more recent model used.
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A very timely post. My issue is I have friends who whinge about being broke all the time, but then if advice is given get offended… their response is but you make so much more money than me…I then subsquently point out all the things I saved up for/did on minimum wage (most of these friends, while not raking it in are over minimum wage.) That then gets awkward. And the funny thing is I live far more frugally and spend a lot less money than most of my friends… I may earn a lot more but I also pay a lot more tax and have a high savings rate.
I think money always has the potential to cause rifts. I think I’ll be keeping away from the subject with friends… frustrating when I know I can help…
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I had a chronically broke friend who said to me one time, it’s easy for you, you have your husband to pay for everything.
And it’s true. He does, now that I’m a stay at home mom. But I supported myself (and saved for retirement) for ten years before I ever met him. She just wrote that off as not counting, and it really hurt my feelings.
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I want to slap my hand every time I think the words “it’s easy for you to say…” No, it usually isn’t! There’s always a flip side to that story.
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Meh. A lot of my friends are entrepreneur types. Sometimes they’re flush. Sometimes they’re broke. Much like us. We pay for each other’s meals at expensive restaurants when we’re flush, and enjoy the hospitality of others when we’re broke.
One of my friends has an income hundreds of thousands of dollars higher than mine. We do NOT go on vacations together (grin), but we will meet at Chili’s or Pepper’s for a Margarita after work and compare days.
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Well this is timely. I sat here today thinking about how to tell a good friend of mine that I probably won’t be hanging out with him much any longer. It’s not his fault, either. He and his wife are sweet, unassuming, and well off. But it’s our other friend and her husband who have brought me to the point where I have decided that, for my own sanity, I need to bow out. This other couple (say, Bob and Cindy) cannot stop talking about their cruises, their new cars, their huge 401K contributions, their lavish gifts to one another, etc. They know I am struggling financially. I have even mentioned to Cindy that all this talk makes me uncomfortable.
Before they earned their wealth, we used to discuss light topics. We used to have fun. Now there is no discussion where they can’t take the opportunity to criticize welfare recipients or to mention their latest acquisition. So for three hours every two weeks, instead of enjoying myself, I feel drained.
I wrote an open heart letter to Cindy last year to tell her how uncomfortable this made me, but after tears and apologies, we are back where we were. I don’t begrudge their wealth; I begrudge their constant bragging.
I’m not even sure it’s the wealth of a friend; it seems to be their tact in handling their relationships with others in less fortunate circumstances.
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Thanks for a post very dear to my heart, Kristin. The older I get, the more fiscal inequality becomes an issue. I am by nature a very generous person, and I am regularly taken advantage of. Some I don’t mind because they reciprocate in other ways. Others make me fume because I want them in my life and I don’t want to become a calculative person, or if it gets too upsetting, I cut them out of my life.
Even among my siblings, it is tricky. I have two siblings living in the same city and we go out for meals on a weekly basis. They are both married with kids, I am single. We take equal turns to pay, which means I end up paying more. One sibling is conscious of this, and will try pay more often, sometimes puts money into my account or invite me around for meals, etc. The other does none of these things. Thus, I invite the reciprocating sibling over for meals more, and sometimes babysit their kids.
I have stopped dating men whose are a lot less financially secure. I don’t want to make them feel bad, or stop doing things I like to do (eat out at fine dining restaurants once in a while, take overseas holidays, buy thoughtful, but sometimes expensive presents). I am frugal in certain parts of my life, but I like to spoil the people around me. I always catch myself offering to pay for things and agreeing to do things for people, and I have to learn that sometimes I end up unhappy because it becomes an expectation. I find that a lot of people mean to reciprocate, – but they never end up doing it.
I have accepted that as a childless person, I will always subsidise those with kids. What does surprise me is that parents never seem to take into account that there is a cost to someone else if you split the bill evenly, kids eat quite a bit (we often go out for shared dishes). There is the expectation to buy more and more expensive presents. One of my siblings asked me to purchase a $60 pair of shoes as a birthday gift for his 3 year old.
I don’t want to take a hardline, and I wish I didn’t have to ‘educate’ people not to take advantage of me. But I guess I have to work through my discomfort, have the tough conversation and realise that I cannot be friends with selfish people.
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I’m so glad I saw this post! This has been an on-going issue between my roommate and I since last year.
Long story short, I have always made more than her due to differing industries and more work experience. She had a very hard time getting a job and when she finally did, it still paid less than mine. When we moved in together I was guilted into paying more of the rent because I made more (I do have the master room, but they are essentially the same size and I never wanted it, she told me I needed to take it to justify paying more). I never thought it was fair and she knew this but I felt guilty and helpless so that’s how it has been since we moved in.
I recently quit my job to follow a career path that I’m actually interested in but I will be making substantially less money than I did before, and than even less than she makes. There is no way I can afford to pay the additional share of the rent, but I’m scared to approach her about leveling our payments. We had agreed if she got a higher paying job we would split equally.
Any one have any suggestions on how I should go about having this conversation?? We’ve had a very rocky friendship lately due to uneven earnings (among other things) so I don’t want to have a huge fight but I simply cannot be covering other people’s financial obligations on top of my own. Please help!
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I think you already realize there is no magic solution here. She is going to resent the heck out of the conversation and changes to the status quo.
You just have to do it.
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Sometimes it’s hard to get someone who loves to treat to hand over the bill, and I must admit that I have in the past allowed myself to take advantage of the situation. Now, I’m wrestling the bill from a family member’s hand at least half the time!
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