The rewards of frugality and thrift (or, why we scrimp and save)
Over the past couple of weeks, more than a few GRS readers have complained about the site’s tone. These folks are afraid that Get Rich Slowly is turning into a column that’s only about frugality and self-denial, one that is neglecting the “rich” part of the blog’s title. These concerns came to the fore in last week’s article about remembering to appreciate what I already have.
In that discussion, ObjectiveGeek wrote:
I want the best possible life for myself and my family. Maybe that means a dream house, or maybe that means the freedom to travel any and everywhere, but maybe that means both. I’d be proud of my dream home if I had earned the means to own it. I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue — it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.
Alex offered a similar sentiment:
I sometimes cringe when I see these kinds of articles. What is so wrong with wanting 5 bedrooms you may never use? What is sooooo bad about wanting a bigger house? If you have diligently saved, and planned, and you can truly afford those nice-ities in life, why not reach for them? Why not buy them?
Here’s the thing: I agree with both ObjectiveGeek and Alex. If Get Rich Slowly has been frugality-minded lately, that’s simply an accident of scheduling. While I believe that frugality is an important part of personal finance, GRS remains dedicated to the Big Picture, to all aspects of getting rich slowly.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting more, and there’s nothing wrong with reaching for nicer things in life if you’ve diligently planned and saved. I certainly don’t mean to imply that it’s bad to choose to buy things that will make you happier. But it’s important to find the proper balance between what you want and what you can afford.
How I Spent My Money in the Past
It used to be that I bought a lot of little Stuff:
- I spent hundreds of dollars a month on books and magazines.
- I had a lot of recurring expenses, such as my monthly cable bill and magazine subscriptions.
- I bought a lot of limited-use tech gadgets, like voice recorders and expensive digital cameras.
- I bought too many clothes. When Kris and I went through my closet recently, I was saddened to see so many items still with their tags on!
There was plenty more, of course. Basically, I bought what I wanted without thinking. If a friend had a new gazingus pin or thneed, I’d be inclined to buy a new gazingus pin or thneed, too. And when my income went up, my spending always went up. This is how I succumbed to the tyranny of Stuff.
It’s this kind of spending that I encourage you to question. I’m not saying, “Stop! Don’t spend on the things that make you happy.” I’m saying, “Hold on a second. Take some time to think about the money you’re spending — make sure it aligns with your priorities and goals. Don’t just buy a bunch of Stuff.” Buy based on your goals and values, not out of habit.
How I Spend My Money Today
What do I mean by this? Let’s take a look at how I’ve spent my money over the past couple of years. Each of the things I list below were purchased consciously, with money I already had, because I knew they’d make me happy.
Here’s a gallery of my recent major purchases:
My Mini Cooper, which I coveted for years before I was able to save enough to buy it with cash. I bought a five-year-old used car, and have been very happy with it. Meanwhile, I’m slowly saving for an eventual replacement Mini.
My nice furniture, for which Kris and I saved until we could combine a coupon (yes, really) with a colossal sale. We got this stuff at 50% off regular pricing. That has to be the best coupon I’ve ever used.
My comic books. I have a monthly budget for purchasing comic books (and comic strips) in collected editions. Before I dug out of debt, my comic spending was part of the problem; now, it’s part of the solution — it’s part of what makes all these smart choices seem worth it.
My bicycle. It was a tough decision whether I could afford (and justify) $900 on a new bike last summer, but I’m glad I did. I’ve been riding this thing constantly since I returned from Alaska, and it’s helping me drop the weight. Also helping me drop weight is…
My gym. I spend a lot of money to be a part of the local Crossfit gym. But I also derive a lot of value. Since joining in April, I’ve lost fifteen pounds. By the end of the summer, I’ll be fitter (and stronger!) than I’ve been in my adult life. To me, that’s money well spent.
My travel. Most of all, I’ve been spending on travel. Kris and I hope to be able to make one big trip every two years. (Maybe every year, if we’re diligent.) This year is an exception. I used part of my book advance to go to Belize in February, and later in 2010 we’ll travel to France and Italy.
Make no mistake: I live a rich life, for which I am tremendously grateful. But this rich life is largely a result of the choices I’ve made. I worked hard to dig out of debt and get where I am today. I’m fortunate to have found work that I love and am good at, and I’m lucky to be a winner in the “lottery of birth” — and I make sacrifices on the things that don’t matter to me so that I can indulge in the things that do.
I write about thrift and frugality a lot, but it’s only because I recognize their value in helping me obtain my goals.
Important: I make certain to have a full emergency fund, and to set aside my target amounts for retirement and taxes before I spend on the fun stuff. Again, it’s about managing priorities.
Conscious Spending
“I should write a post for Get Rich Slowly,” my wife told me the other day. “I could tell your readers all about how you’re not frugal.” She meant that unlike what some of you think, I’m not into self-denial. I do buy nice things for myself.
But here’s the difference between my current spending and my former profligate ways: I can afford everything I’m buying, and when I do buy, it’s a conscious decision. I’m not financing my lifestyle on debt, and I’m not buying things just to “keep up with the Joneses” or out of habit. My spending now reflects my priorities, my goals, my values.
Because I’m spending consciously and living within my means, I’m much happier than I was before. I can’t have everything I want — no $2.3 million home for me, for example — but I can have a few of the things that seem most important.
In a follow-up comment to my post last week, objectiveGeek wrote:
Of course having money for money’s sake is nearly pointless, but having money for what it represents (value, effort, innovation, hard work, success) and for what it provides (freedom, time, safety, opportunity — essentially life!) is the noblest of goals.
I think that’s correct. We’re all striving to get rich — quickly or slowly — because of what we believe money can bring to our lives. I just think it’s important to maintain balance, to remember that money and happiness aren’t always connected, and to acknowledge that the best way to achieve your financial goals is to make active, conscious choices about where and when you spend your money.
Maybe it’s time to officially add a fifteenth tenet to the Get Rich Slowly philosophy. Namely, you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want.
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There are 139 comments to "The rewards of frugality and thrift (or, why we scrimp and save)".
I don’t see that there is any need for self-denial at all.
All saved money is ultimately spent. Money serves no purpose unless it is spent. So spending is the point. To be anti-spending makes no sense to me. I save because I love spending!
The problem (in my view!) is that we can get caught up in habits of spending ineffectively. What you want to do is to optimize the Fun Units you obtain from each dollar of spending. Sometimes that means spending right away, other times it mean putting it off for a bit.
My view is that discussions of sacrifice just confuse things. I never saved a dollar because I wanted to practice self-denial. I always did it because I wanted to live a richer life and it appeared to me that saving was the way to make it happen.
I like to think of both saving and spending as purely positive events. The negativity that gets pulled in with discussions of sacrifice drags me down. I view all the negativity that unfortunately surrounds discussion of this topic as unnecessary (but at least it’s not as bad as investing!).
Rob
Get Rich Slowly helped me realize that my spending habits were sub par. I “needed” lots of things and I “needed” them now. When I decided to ride my motorcycle for 6 months from the USA to the southern tip of South America it made it so much easier to save. I saw some light at the end of the tunnel. I passed on an extra beer at the pub because it was worth 3 beers in South America. I passed on new widgets and thingamajigs that would be fun to have but weren’t needed and weren’t going to make me happier on my trip. I started spending money on things that mattered – critical bike prep and delicious latin food. It’s OK to spend money when you’re in control of your money.
I think people get confused, when you plan and save for a purchase there is a level of self denial.
First you deny yourself the immediate purchase. Someone who saves up to buy a car with cash can’t just run out and buy a new car.
Second, I find that by saving up for a purchase I am much more deliberate in how I spend that money. If I save up for a car and it takes me a year or two years to save that money I find that I take a lot more time researching and planning the purchase and generally get a better deal. I am more careful with the money I saved up over two years that I am with the small amounts that I spend on a day to day basis.
Third, some times when I save up for a purchase I decide that I’d rather keep saving than make the purchase. Recently I was saving my allowance money (money that I’m allocated for day to day spending that I didn’t spend) for art. I had the money saved up but wasn’t feeling like spending $800 on art (even though I had really wanted the art such that I started saving for it). Then the artist advertised a moving sale and although I’m not good at bargaining, was able to purchase the art for $450 shipping included.
It is the same with travel for me, although I create a spending plan for our travel which inclues planning out how much we will spend on a daily basis and accounts for 5 star accomodations and fine dining, I don’t scrimp. But when people hear spending plan for a vacation they think that means denying yourself, no it means planning out our spending such that we don’t come home with any debt or bills or remorse.
J.D.,
Your comment on buying your furniture at 50% off reminded me that furniture is one item where the savings can be huge if you buy it right. I used to have an investment in a furniture retailer, and I can tell you that it was very easy to get a big discount on a furniture purchase. By waiting for items to go on sale, by looking for coupons (we offered them, too!), and simply by asking for a better price, a customer could save thousands.
I’m not against the idea that you should spend your money on stuff that is important to you if you have saved and worked hard, but IMO buying a 5 bedroom house even though you may never use all that space is just wasteful. Same with people who buy those huge gas-guzzling SUVs because they think they deserve it. Those things use up resources (water, gas, oil, electricity) that are not infinite. There’s something to be said about thrift and frugality when it leads to a lifestyle that is more sustainable.
That furniture is *very* nice. I think your Dansette-type record player just became one of my ‘Gazingus Pins’. Where did you find it?
@Adam (#7)
A friend gave me the record player. It works (even on my brand-new Decemberists records!), but I don’t know how to repair it, and it has the feel of something on its last legs. I have my eyes out for something similar, though I’m in no hurry to buy. I just want to begin getting an idea of how much these cost and where they can be found.
This is why I keep coming back to this blog. The stories are well-written and thoughtful, and the reader comments are generally good. I share many of the same opinions about conscious spending and frugality. There are definitely things in this life worth spending money on!
And exactly where does your iPad purchase fit into all this “conscious spending?” 😉
Sorry, J.D., I couldn’t resist.
@Kevin (#10)
Ha. The iPad fits into the “I still make mistakes” category. I did set aside money for it, and it was a conscious choice, but it wasn’t a good choice. It’s an example of how I still have a lot to learn! 🙂
J.D.,
Very well-written and interesting article. That’s exactly why I have been following for so long, and will continue to be a subscriber. (Oh, I just realized Jason already beat me to this…)
Thanks.
Whoa! What?!
“having money for what it represents (value, effort, innovation, hard work, success) and for what it provides (freedom, time, safety, opportunity – essentially life!) is the noblest of goals.”
Neither of those reasons for having money is noble. Having money because of what it represents is vanity. Having money because it provides personal opportunity is selfish. Having money because of how you can use it to improve yourself, everyone and everything around you is noble.
Here here! This article is just one example of why I love reading your blog.
And I think Rob Bennet’s comment was very insightful and worth some thought. We are never saving to actually keep that money – we are merely delaying a purchase in order to choose when we are going to spend that money.
Some of the more frugal-based websites just depress me. It all sounds like a race to get to the bottom…”I get my food with coupons”…”yeah, well I drive all over the city to combine coupons with sales”…”yeah, well I only buy the day old bread and rotton fruit they are about to throw out”…”yeah, well I grow my own food and bake my bread and slaughter my own chickens”…”yeah, well I only eat road kill and I dumpster dive – I haven’t paid for food since 2007!” Yay you.
Money is just a tool. If we don’t use that tool appropriately to enjoy experiences, leisure time with loved ones, or purchases that bring us pleasure, then I don’t see the point.
Very good, thought provoking post and the kind of thinking I too embrace. Frugal living is all about living within your means and cutting back on things you don’t want or need FOR the things we do truly want. Frugal living has allowed me to live the lifestyle I want and that is the richest gift of all.
great post. i love the comment about being rich in time. my fiancee and i are currently working like crazy to build up our savings, pay off debt, and pay for a wedding. we also just bought our first house…so that adds to the pressure. all of this work (and time lost) has made me realize the true value of time and money. now when i see a new pair of shoes i want, or think that my clothes aren’t cute enough or in vogue, i think about all the time i spend working…and do i want that time to purchase another shirt, or to pay off loans so that eventually i can buy back my time and life? the latter always wins now.
i think aligning your spending with your priorities is the number one way to ensure that you are working to live the life you really want to live.
in other words…i am frugal and proud!
Like Meghan (commenter #6), I’m a little turned off by the comment from Alex quoted above, and some similar sentiments expressed by fellow commenters. I appreciate luxuries (physical and intangible) as much as the next girl. However, as Meghan pointed out, the resources of the world are not infinite, and I believe that long term frugality includes trying to use only a reasonable part of those resources, and remembering that we share the world. JD, I understand that you don’t feel comfortable or choose to promote that point of view to your readers (or reiterate it too frequently), but I did feel moved to speak to it. I am frugal because I’m broke, yes, and because I hope to save for better things, but I also do consider it a worthwhile goal to work on thriftiness as a long term lifestyle, and to try to limit the amount that I personally, consume and use. And Alexandra–I’m not sure if your ladder is directly hierarchical, but surely baking bread and raising chickens is more of a luxury than day-old supermarket stuff. At least for the quality of what you’d get.
“you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want.”
That is a great saying. One I try to convince my husband of all the time. I guess I need to convince myself of it too because sometimes I get into the “all or nothing” thinking where I deprive myself a lot which feels terrible. Thanks for this post. It really brightened my day.
–Just read Alexandra’s post and am laughing! I know exactly what you mean. People do that with “green living” also and it drives me crazy!
Reminds me of the book “Cheaper by the Dozen,” in which the father of the family is the world’s most strict efficiency expert:
Someone once asked Dad: “But what do you want to save time for? What are you going to do with it?”
“For work, if you love that best,” said Dad. “For education, for beauty, for art, for pleasure.” He looked over the top of his pince-nez. “For mumblety-peg, if that’s where your heart lies.”
I mostly agree with Rob Bennett’s comment, except for one thing – the point of having money is not necessarily to spend it. The point of having money is having the *ability* to spend it.
Tossing $10,000 in the bank in case unforeseen future events cause you to lose a job, need a major car repair, incur a significant medical bill, etc. is in the “ability to spend” category. You’re not planning on actually spending it, but if you need it, it’s there.
That money may sit there until the day you die, and that doesn’t mean it was wasted – it provided you a safety net (which arguably has value), without consuming the actual money.
I like your MINI (I have a 2008 R56 MINI Cooper), but really, you need to wash the brake dust off the front wheels before you take a pic! 🙂
My MINI is leased, but next year I hope to have enough saved to buy my own new or newish Cooper S with cash as well. The car is an expensive luxury that not everyone agrees with, but I get a lot of enjoyment from driving it.
Hopefully this means there will be more articles along the lines of Earn More vs. Spend Slow. It tends to be a motivational speaker line of talk, but if I would have focused only on spending, I’d still be making $50k/year and retiring at 65 hoping for social security to still be around.
Focusing on spending less is an easier topic to cover it seems – but if you wouldn’t have pushed yourself to write that book, there would have been no advance to go on the trip with. If you wouldn’t have had the discipline to grow your site, you wouldn’t have got to the mini Coop as quickly.
Most people are still going to the ocean with a teaspoon, not a bucket and asking for much less than we’re potentially worth. That’s the more difficult lesson that many of us need to learn. Not so much how to live within reduced means but to increase those means.
What about the other side of the “Have Enough” continuum – when you have more than enough? Is there a point where you become so rich that you actually have a responsibility to society and the planet to spend wisely, not just according to your own wants?
If you can easily afford 30 cars (think celebrity status), is it still OK to buy them? That’s quite a cost to the environment in raw materials. What if your dream home is a palatial mansion that costs enough to send 100 kids to college, feed a third world country or support organic agriculture?
It might be interesting to entertain the thought of how much is TOO much and when a person should give up an expense just because it’s not sustainable. Even if that person also gives a lot away (like Bill Gates), is there a responsibility not to spend too much on oneself anyway?
Not that my family has this problem…just wondering what the readers think.
Great post!
My happiness had not gone down since I decided to get frugal…has it gone up? Maybe,…yes.
My reaction is that Americans tend to overspend. We (some not all) spend money as if we have more than we really do.
And now that I think of it, I shouldn’t consider my new spending habits frugal but realistic. I no longer spend for my ‘future self’ but the one here and now.
I guess because I have similar views of saving to buy what I want to rather than just not knowing where the money went, I didn’t even notice any sort of ‘trend’ in the posts, nor did I think anything about the post you are mentioning other than yes, I agree. And you can spend way more on bicycles than that! LOL! But that’s the really cool thing about truly deciding what you want to spend money on. Even our kids have fairly expensive bicycles, but we live in Colorado and we bike a lot. However, because we were and continue to be truly frugal in things that don’t matter to us (eating out, clothes, new car purchases, etc.) we can afford to spend CASH on the things that we do care about (private school for our kids, very nice bicycles, etc.). We had a period of a few years where we were very careful in all purchases until we paid off all debt other than our mortgage. Now, we continue to save for retirement (15% plus my husband has a pension plan), save and pay cash for home improvements, etc., but we can also splurge on a $2700 bicycle every once in a while. It’s all about choice and deciding what is important to you. As Dave Ramsey says, ‘Live like no-one else now, so you can live like no-one else later!’.
The problem is, as you’ve proved, that purchasing a dream home that has five rooms that you’ll never visit defeats the entire point of this and every other financial blog.
It’s wasteful spending and money that can be directed elsewhere.
It’s no different than the popular saying, “a boat owner’s happiest two days are the day he buys his boat and the day he sales his boat”.
This is probably my favorite article that I’ve read here over the past few years. I think people sometimes substitute the mania of “frugality” in place of the mania of “overspending”. You still don’t have a healthy relationship with money if you go from one extreme to another.
I’ve said many times that my personal debt reduction plan would drive most PF fans crazy. I purposely chose a slower plan that allowed me a certain amount for indulgence spending. I’ve done the full tilt, deny yourself everything plan before, and even fully paid off my debts at one point. The problem I had was that as soon as I tried to re-introduce spending for pleasure in my life, I’d fall right back into my old habits. My current plan forces me to work not only on frugality, but also on responsible spending. We clip coupons, go to the library, and try to find ways to cut the overall household spending. But we also figure out how to prioritize what indulgences are worthwhile and figure out how to afford those indulgences without busting our budget. Not only do the occasional rewards provide us with strong motivation to keep up with the overall budgeting system, but we are developing the discipline that previously was missing in our financial lives. I feel confident that when we are fully debt-free, we will be able to continue using these skills to continue to make progress with our finances!
This is the same thing as the Dave Ramsey Approach—Get out of debt, be financially wise, save your money and then enjoy the fruits of your labor however you choose. I think the quote is “Live like no one else so you can live like no one else.” It’s all about growing up and making smart financial decisions so you are both well prepared for the future AND can have the time of your life.
Meghan-
I love my house. If you where to be in the area, and were a friend, I have plenty of room for you to stay. If you were my daughter, you might even move your family in while you and your husband are finding a job. You could have one level, and us the other. My house uses about the same electricity as the one down the street- but is twice as big. When we worked- we drove less than 10 minutes to our jobs or the store (just two stores in our area). Our fields will continue to empty to be a buffer to the nature conservatory at the bottom of our hill. We have a huge barn where furniture is hand made.
If we choose to spend our hard earned money on such things I see it no different than someone else who travels to the rainforest. After living in a rainforest, I know every single human footprint makes an impact.
We each make our own choices. My footprint here seems unnoticeable to the squirrels, turkeys and deer of the area. OK- so the coyotes notice us…
You don’t get rich by writing checks.
OTOH, over they years in frugality related forums I’ve noticed *some* people who became compulsive about saving money.
Spending large amounts of time and effort to save very little money……time that could have been used to earn much more money or enjoying life.
Being penny wise, but dollar foolish.
JD, thanks for addressing these concerns. I take back my criticism on the blog as a whole. Frugality has a place and you’ve done a good job of putting it in perspective.
@Trina #23,
I think it’s a valid question, but I don’t agree with the assumptions it is based on. Any attempt to define “enough” or “too much” inevitably leads to individuals sacrificing themselves to other ends. Whether those ends be other individuals (AKA slavery) or the environment it makes little difference. In both cases you turn man into a sacrifice.
It is this view of human existence that I find disturbing. It is only individual life that makes the concept of “value” possible, therefore the idea of submitting individual lives to other ends is profoundly immoral in my view.
I’ve never understood the love affair some people have with the Mini Cooper!
One of my earliest childhood memories of being in a car was being driven around in my parents’ bright orange {I’m assuming it was second hand!} Mini, and realising that I could see the road going by through the gaps in the poorly maintained floor 😀
Also, does anyone else find that they’re quite hard to get into unless you’re fairly short?
In response to Meghan, Trina and Katya, I would really suggest that you read “The Millionaire Next Door”, if you haven’t already done so. Outward appearance and conspicuous consumption are characteristics of “high earners”, not those who are “wealthy”. Most people who are truly wealthy are in reality quire frugal and live beneath their means, drive boring cars and live in “regular” neighborhoods. They tend to not waste things.
I agree with Alexandra and Chickybeth that too often the “green” and “frugal” lifestyle people can become just as competitive, arrogant and judgmental. Frugal and green living provides a vast array of tools and viewpoints that can enrich anyone’s life. But at some point, it just becomes another quest to keep up with a crowd, just like those who are buying bigger houses, new TV’s or the other things that annoy the green/frugal crowd.
I like to make use of all the tools available to me to live the richest life possible. I do pull a lot of tools from the frugal toolbox and the green toolbox, to be true, but I do also believe that each person needs to come to the toolboxes available of their own accord. In my experience, the largest motivator is self-interest and/or self-preservation. I’ve found that trying to induce feelings of guilt, nagging or using coercive means of one kind or another to just make everyone mad. This doesn’t just apply to frugality or green living, but also when I’m trying to get my kids to do something like clean up. A positive reward or at least a readily identifiable cause and effect are more powerful motivator than anything else.
Of course, sometimes it takes a personal crisis or other really scary incident to motivate people properly. Recently, $4/gallon gas seemed to be a sufficient motivator to kill off the sales of automobiles that consumed a lot of fuel and actually drive up prices of fuel efficient vehicles. In my town, we switched to having to pay for our trash disposal per bag, and recycling is free. Recycling rates have soared. I can only hope that we soon get curbside recycling, too. Other incentives to install solar power, geothermal and other alternative energy (green) solutions have seen similar success rates.
If you write about frugality, people complain. If you write about the material benefits of having been frugal, people say you’re out of touch. If you write about your mistakes, people complain… You can’t please all the people all the time, eh? But I think you’re doing a great job pleasing all of the people some of the time, because we’re all at different points in our individual journeys and GRS really does have something for everyone.
Honestly, I’ve totally become hooked on this site and now check it in the morning with my cereal before my favorite web comics and even before cake-wrecks. Keep up the great work!
I love this post, cause it shows the personal rewards you have saved up for. It’s nice to highlight your success and what savings can do for you when you put the effort in.
I guess everyone has very different definitions of “Rich”. I feel like the only form of true wealth is being able to do and experience the things you truly care about. Is wealth really about having more things than you need or care about, or is it about being surrounded by and having access to the things you care about most?
I’m a little confused as to why those two people quoted in the post are even coming to this site. If you are already to the point where you can want and afford a house with 5 extra bedrooms that you will never use in addition to the rooms you actually use, then you are not trying to get rich, you already ARE rich. Do whatever you want with your money.
When you Google search for “Get Rich Slowly,” the site is described as a “Weblog (that) covers frugality, saving and investing, and other aspects of money management.”
Similarly, the Wikipedia article on this site says “Get Rich Slowly is a blog and website covering various aspects of personal finance created and written by J.D. Roth. While the blog has advice on many personal finance topics, one recurring theme is Roth’s own financial history”
The top of this very website cleverly states, “Personal Finance That Makes Cents.”
I don’t understand how one could confuse any part of this site as something that would tell people to dream for excess things you’ll never use, like 5 extra, unnecessary bedrooms.
J.D., you do a great job with this site relaying your personal experiences and helping people with your research and findings. When your personal experiences, research, and findings show you that people should have and want 5 unnecessary rooms in their house, then by all means write about that. Until then, I’ll keep enjoying every article you write about trying to manage my comic-buying habits.
Luke, the Mini Cooper of today is made by BMW and can be quite accommodating for pretty much anyone. They offer a wide array of customization options, not to mention they have a definite sporting character (they are very popular at autocross events), and in addition, they have very good fuel economy. The base Cooper has a MPG rating of 28 city/37 highway with a manual transmission. Changing to an automatic or the sportier model drops those numbers a bit, but for people who don’t want to have a sporty economy car, the Mini can be a good choice. Mini also offers convertible models, huge sunroofs and a lot of other features that typically don’t exist in the compact class, which was largely relegated to the rear end of an automaker’s lineup. I think Mini proved that there are plenty of people who want a fun-to-drive and good looking compact car.
Note: I don’t drive a Mini Cooper but might consider one of my next vehicle. I like to switch my own gears and would like one of those giant sunroof models. I also like the new Ford Fiesta and the Honda Fit, which also seem to toss in some spice with their frugality.
I am a concious spender not because I can’t afford the gadgets in life. I am a concious spender because I have goals that are infinitely bigger than any ‘high’ gadgets at the stores can give me.
I never see not buying a cup of starback coffee a sacrifice. I get contentment from reading good books and watching great movies from the library. I get my exercise from walking the dam across from my house. I volunteer my time helping the art teacher at school. I get to be in touch with teenagers when I accompany our middle school choir-and augmenting my income at the same time.
I AM LIVING A RICH LIFE!
@Jason – I’m talking about the modern models!
I was offered a lift in one a couple of years ago and found it a bit on the snug side (and at 5′ 11″ I’m no giant)…
DJ,
I enjoyed both posts, as well as a number of your reader’s comments.
It is very easy to fall into an “extreme” category when starting on a new path. I’ve seen it happen in life as well as the frugal blog-world.
I truly believe that the key is moderation in all things. Don’t spend more than you earn, save for emergencies and your future retirement – be a good steward of your resources (money included!).
It dosn’t take very long to realise that the stuff isn’t what makes a life. It’s all about your experiences and the people you share them with.
I’m 6’2″ and I had found them to be no better or worse than other compacts out there. My daily driver now is a Subaru Impreza WRX. I’ve also found that there are some cars for which I find things tight (Audi A4, BMW 3-series) that other people think are huge, and vice versa.
I think a lot might have to do with what position you find comfortable in the car, specifically the angle of the seatback.
Janette,
It sounds, from the examples you give, that you ARE using your house, rather than holding empty space for display, which is (I think) what Meghan was speaking against.
I’m not sure where the rainforest comes in, as no one else mentioned traveling there. Presumably, someone who is interested in a minimal footprint would be aware of that in a rainforest as well, though your point about there being places that are more environmentally frugal for humans to live is well taken.
Jason,
Thanks for the recommendation–I’ve definitely seen it recommended before. I think what I was trying to say above was a lot less about fingerwagging for people’s individual purchases/luxuries/enjoyments, and more about what you were saying–an avoidance of waste, and wasteful attitudes. I also agree with you that there’s always a balance, and that shaming is definitely the least effective strategy to get anyone to do anything. Incentives, like the ones you mentioned, do work much better a lot of the time.
I generally hate getting involved in comment-wrangles, especially when I’m probably just repeating common wisdom, so I won’t post again to this thread. I think it’s great to remember though, that the question of how to spend and what to buy doesn’t just rest on what we can afford and what we imagine that we ‘deserve’ (a seriously suspect term), but on what impact we want to have. Others have reiterated this in many ways.
@Luke: I am 5’11” and have no issues using the front seats. I have plenty of head and leg room despite the moonroof. I find it more roomy than a number of compact cars mostly because of the large expanses of glass. The deep bucket seats might slow down your in/out movement too. The 2007+ models are slightly larger as well.
Now the rear seats are designed mostly for small-medium sized dogs, kids, etc. which is not a big surprise. I have on occasion driven with four people in my MINI on 2+ hour trips with minimum of complaints. The way I see it, I have the car for my wife, dog and myself – not for carrying passengers a few times a year. 🙂
@walk –
I was in the back, which explains it 😉
I really like your response – the important thing is value. You get a lot of value out of the things you listed. I agree wholeheartedly. For me, my “thneed” (cool reference, by the way) would be musical gear.
I think maybe ObjectiveGeek and Alex should examine their questions in this regard. How is having 5 bedrooms you never use a “nice-ity”? I would call that wastefulness. It’s fine to have a dream home, but what’s the source of pride there? It’s not like you BUILT the house.
RE: “What is so wrong with wanting 5 bedrooms you may never use? If you have diligently saved, and planned, and you can truly afford those nice-ities in life, why not reach for them?”–BECAUSE WANTING 5 BEDROOMS YOU MAY NEVER USE ISN’T A NICITY, IT’S AN AQUISITION DISEASE. WANTING THINGS YOU CAN USE IS FINE. WANTING AND ACQUIRING THINGS YOU CAN’T USE IS A SICKNESS.
I totally agree that saving is great, but you have to live your life. It is all a matter of perspective. Some people may covet my house and thing I am wasteful. I may look at a 5000 square foot house and think it is wasteful and they may think they are frugal.
What matters is that you spend responsibly and have enough to take care of your family.
Hi JD – I love your little yellow mini. I didn’t realise they were also popular in the US.
I’ve really been enjoying all the frugal posts recently. I used to be really wasteful – most of the time spending money on crap that didn’t matter. Blogs like yours have really helped me change. My life is less stressful because I don’t have to earn more just so I can spend it on rubbish.
Like you, I prefer to spend money on stuff I really want – a good second-hand car and travel.
J.D., fabulous post. To repair your record player, get in touch with Ken’s Antique Electronics in Eugene: 541-485-8676, [email protected]. I’m not affiliated with them, but I live in Eugene and I have a record player!
“I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue – it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.”
This quote from ObjectiveGeek in your article really made bugged me. What’s the sense in obtaining anything if you’re never content with it? Wouldn’t it all just be hollow consumption?
As someone with a high household income, I use frugality to keep our ‘ongoing expenses’ low, so that we are agile if our circumstances change. That includes a house/mortgage that’s affordable (nice and big enough, but only 1X our income), healthy but not luxurious groceries, occasional dinners out but not at the extravagant places. Our everyday lifestyle comes in pretty reasonable when compared to our colleagues, and we save a good amount for retirement/kid’s college/emergencies. We still spend some of the excess income, but we do it on infrequent big purchases (furniture, travel, gifts) instead of ongoing costs because — in my head — these are less likely to make us feel trapped by our income sources. We like our jobs today, but if that jerkhead colleague is promoted to be boss, or if we decide we want to shift to a non-profit or start a business, I want to feel like that is possible. My mental accounting codes most of our monthly expenses as ‘needs’ and infrequent purchases as ‘wants’, so for me, cutting the infrequent items is a lower mental hurdle for making a career change.
I get the importance on increasing income, but I think solely focusing on that ignores the reality for many: that income isn’t going to go up every year until retirement. As GRS stresses, balance is important, and I think that is true at any income level pre-billionaire. Just ask Nic Cage…
Jenn
@Mary #50,
I’d accept that criticism. My comment was more contextual. Often people say that we should just be content with what we have — implying that striving for something more or better isn’t worth it, or even that it is somehow wrong.
Ultimately, I think you are right. I think being content with the track our lives are on is important.
I am rich.
I am rich because all of my needs are met. I have food that is both nutritious and flavorful. I have a home that gives me shelter from the elements and from harm, that nurtures my spirit, and that provides me with a place to welcome my family and friends. I have clothing that is comfortable, protects me from the cold (in the winter) and the sun, and fits well. I have a car that is dependable and safe and comfortable, that I can use to go where I need to go, and to transport my friends and family.
I am able to give to my church, to pay my own way on occasional evenings out, to save a (very) small amount for emergencies, and to (slowly) pay down my debt, which I incurred when I did not realize that i was already rich. Even though my income is lower than it has ever been, I am spending my money more intentionally (some would say “frugally”) than I did when I made more money.
Things are a lot different, mostly because I am older, and my perspective on what is important has changed. I am happier and more at peace now than at any prior time in my life.
This is a relatively new way to live for me, just in the past couple of years, and it is a work in progress. Every so often the old thinking rears its head, not unlike a recovering alcoholic who occasionally wants to take a drink, despite all evidence that the sober life is more “happy, joyous and free” than the drinking life.
Get Rich Slowly helps me stay focused–like going to an AA meeting helps me stay sober! Both remind me of my goals, my current happiness, and refocus me on the many good things about my changed life, instead of my focusing on one or two things about the old way that I think were more fun.
I think that frugality is more about attitude than anything else. The word has a bad rap. Maybe “intentionality” would be a better way to think about it.
Thanks to all who post here! And especially to Mr. GRS himself.
Man, we have 5 bedrooms we never use (actually 4 bedrooms and a study/nursery). It was an accident… we thought we would use them, that we each needed our own office and we’d have kids to fill the rest. Turns out we can’t bear to be apart for long, so only one study gets used at a time. But selling and buying something smaller seems like a huge hassle and expense (especially since we don’t know how long we’ll be staying at our jobs), and we do love lots of parts of the house. (Though we do not love the HOA.)
I guess this is a confession. Forgive me web community, for I have sinned. I thought we needed all of the house we could afford but we did not. If we move and buy again we will stick to 3-4 bedrooms and <2200 sq ft.
@Mary #50 – I agree and 2nd Mary’s comment. Buying things because one is not content is like chasing the wind.
This blog is full of ideas and insights. Some may be right for you, some may not. If some of the articles are about frugality, and you’re so rich that you don’t want to be frugal, ignore those articles. There are some ideas here that I will never use, but I’m not going to send a comment complaining about it. Take what you like, and leave the rest alone. Sheesh.
I was sorting through my photos on Flickr yesterday, and deleting a bunch of old stuff that no longer seems important to me. I found I had a *lot* of pictures of just “stuff” — things I’d purchased years ago that I was proud of at the time. Like J.D., I had photos of cars, bicycles, bookshelves, and furniture. Also electronics. I found, going back through these pictures, that I don’t actually own almost any of these things anymore — they’ve long since lost their importance in my life, to be replaced with newer versions of themselves, or simply forgotten and left behind.
I found myself thinking, “is this a picture I’ll ever want to show anyone? Am I going to want to use it to illustrate a story? Am I going to want to say to someone ‘oh, this is that iBook I used to own.’?” I found myself thinking that no, I won’t want to share these things with anyone, because they have no important memories associated with them. They’re just things. Further, since Flickr keeps a count of how many views each photo gets, I could see that these things had been online for often over five years, with not but one or two (or sometimes not even one) people ever looking at them.
I deleted nearly all of these photos. I kept a lot of photos of people and vacations — photos with stories attached to them, not photos of things I owned. That might be an interesting criteria to use when making a purchase: If I buy this, five years from now will I have any good stories to tell about it? Will I want to show photos of it to people? If not, is it really worth the money?
Very interesting post, it is much more rewarding to save up ones money for one or two big purchase items (i.e. vacation, car, house, etc.), rather than thoughtlessly spending on “habit” purchases that add up over time. Not only will you enjoy your purchases more, you will know that you can afford them.
As a non-objective Geek, I must say I agree with the objective one – I want to be rich for a reason. I’m pretty competitive and I like nice things. I’m probably an awful person, but being able to afford having slightly nicer things than the neighbors without working… ahhhhh so nice.
But I’ve enjoyed the frugality posts – they make me feel like I’m missing out on less. This latest post makes me want to buy a tire pump for my poor old bicycle and a new car :). For now I’ll have to be competitively frugal while finding ways to enjoy myself.
It reminds me of the “I can have it all!” line for women in the 70s. Nowadays, it’s “I can have it all, just not all at the same time.” 🙂
Balance, choices, tradeoffs, priorities, etc. Making choices is hard and it’s not fun to not get everything you want. Just ask my kids!
My dreams, goals, hobbies, and interests are unlikely to be the same as yours, so no judgment here! It’s the thoughtfulness of the spending that counts, not the actual items purchased.
I am uncomfortable with the comment JD quoted from ObjectiveGeek:
“Of course having money for money’s sake is nearly pointless, but having money for what it represents (value, effort, innovation, hard work, success) and for what it provides (freedom, time, safety, opportunity – essentially life!) is the noblest of goals.”
I believe that the most noble kinds of hard work provide little in the way of money while many ways of making money have little nobility to them*. Also, most displays of money are also not particularly noble. I’m not sure making one’s self free and safe is particularly noble either, although it is practical and empowering.
* I was going to put examples in there about more- and less- noble professions, but didn’t want to get into a debate about the nobility of various professions. “But I’m a GOOD derivatives trader! But I know some really evil social workers!”
I think a lot of perspective of a post can be skewed by the comments. As others have pointed out many conversations turn into races to the extreme: be they frugality, green living, or (my personal favorite) an accounting of exactly how many items you own. I think those are just a reflection of how competitive people can be. It’s human nature.
I think there are two valid arguments, one about being happy with what you have and the other about always wanting more. The two items aren’t mutually exclusive. For example you can be at peace with your debt load and still do what you can to reduce it. I’ll be happier when all I have is a primary mortgage and I’ll be even happier when that is paid off. But I am also happy where I am financially NOW. There is wanting more, and then there is wanting more to the point of making today look bad by comparison.
Regarding when enough is enough, I might not agree with other people’s choices, but I believe in individual liberty. And that means letting others make their own decisions. If Jay Leno wants a hundred cars I might think it’s stupid, but Jay Leno’s job isn’t to support me and when I start making judgments on how he spends his money he can start making judgments about how I spend mine. And I’m not okay with that. So live and let live and let others have their priorities and dreams as long as it doesn’t take away from mine.
Looks like you’re gonna have to start spending money on clothes again now that you’re dropping the weight! Great job JD
Its a matter of making choices in life. We are bound to think in personal interests while making these decisions. As somebody pointed out that, we look for long term gain for short term gain.
But there is always something beyond gaining -Its about losing…
Sometimes… losing is also a kind of gaining. Materialistic loss can give us metal gain, many a time.
Then it all depends upon how we rate our priorities. How much is the how much?- is the real question! Frugality can’t have limits by its own-that’s why it is known as frugality!
I definitely get what you have been saying and have no disagreement at all! I read your articles daily and guess what? They have helped me change my thinking painlessly. In today’s economy it is brilliant advice and can help people stay away from the brink of financial catastrophic failure. I have witnessed thousands of mortgage closigns in the last ten years and have winced at many of them as I watch people fritter away their financial future by purchasing items they absolutely cannot afford! Save and buy later when you have the money has been the way our parents raised us but that thinking has evaporated and we now have the backwards economy of today….thank you for a really terrific service.
THANK YOU! I needed this post.
This is way off today’s topic but since I’m on the path of ‘paying off the mortgage within 10 months’–the biggest reason for my frugality, and the biggest financial freedom as a reward, I’d like to know if anyone out there still think that in today’s economy it is stupid to prepay–I have a 15 year loan @5%.
Back from this morning’s expensive (but valuable) Crossfit workout. I rode ten miles to the gym and ten miles home. At the gym, I rowed 750 meters, did 150 sit-ups, jumped rope 225 times, and then did 25 burpees. (I was supposed to do 75, but couldn’t.) Sometimes it seems crazy to pay for something I could do at home, but to be able to do this in a community with proper instruction really keeps me motivated. And the results are worth it. Again, this is a conscious choice.
Time to read through all of your comments now…
@ts (#67)
Patience! Friday’s “ask the readers” question is on this very subject. 🙂
I have personally loved the frugality posts lately. I think more young people are starting to think about their financial futures, especially in the midst of this recession. Many of us young 20-somethings don’t have enough experience to have big salaries quite yet, which can be a deterrent to people to even bother with saving at all. But this blog has shown me that I don’t have to wait for a bigger salary to save money and work towards future goals. Thanks to GRS for not letting me make excuses and for helping me move forward in my pursuit for a better life.
Personally for me it comes down to
(1) buying things that make me happy instead of just having the next cool thing.
(2) understand what I actually want 🙂 I know I can’t have everything I want, so I will have things I want the most that also has some value and provides something for me in life.
(3) delayed gratification, saving for it before I buy. I will save money to spend (including giving money away) on things that make me happy .
For some people the delayed gratification means I am making myself miserable, when I actually buy something with my saved money, some might think I am spending a lot. So it is just a matter of perspective.
I have the ability and clear mind to evaluate what is important to me in life, prioritize and use money as a tool to accomplish that. To me that is far more worth that having boatload of money and “looking” for happiness. I am rich!
I love Dink (#2)‘s comment about being “rich in time”. This has been a huge motivating factor for me lately. I’ve been able to create monetary wealth for myself, but at the expense of time, and because of this, in some ways I feel poorer. The past few months have been all about me learning to reclaim my time again. I’m looking for balance.
Great post! Once again, it is about *mindful* spending.
Thought for future upgrade of GRS… it would be awesome if you had a “recommend” or “like” feature for comments, and could sort comments by # of recommendations. It would make it easier to go through the comments section.
Having 5 extra bedrooms just because you can afford them (and not because you’re planning to have kids, starting a business, etc.) is the same as having a closet full of clothes you’ve never worn. Its like hoarding, but manifested in terms of wasted space instead of stuff.
I didn’t take your post about the house as meaning “you shouldn’t want things you don’t need” at all. It resonated with me because I can still think of occasions when I thought I wanted something really really bad, but when I got it it only made me feel stupid and less happy.
Being able to tell the difference between genuinely wanting something, and merely being jealous, envious or annoyed that you don’t have the biggest, fastest, strongest or newest thing, that’s a big part of being happy, and a big part of personal finance.
When you can tell the difference, then yes, you can spend on things you genuinely want, even though they’re far from being needs. That’s what you’re saving for!
It’s just a matter of realise that gettings things you don’t actually want won’t make you happier, quite the opposite. You’ll get all the stress and responsabilities linked to them without the enjoyment, and on top of that you’ll feel like a fool for not using the money on something you would have actually liked.
So, being satisfied with what you have is important, and having dreams and goals is important too. It’s all about learning to know yourself, really.
Great Financial Balance!!!
Balance is definitely the key, and being in debt is being out of balance!
Being to frugal so that you can become rich is out of balance too. Afterall I certain don’t want to be one of the many people you read about that live in self-denial then leave millions to their local city or their pets!
Once I get closer to the financial point you are at now, I’m looking forwards to traveling too!
Great post as usually!!!
Great post. I think the point of being frugal and saving is to celebrate when you make the big purchases because you BOUGHT them. You didn’t finance them, you didn’t lease them, they are YOURS.
A lot of my articles are on saving so I’ve liked what you’ve been writing. Keep it up!
I think the biggest problem with any type of lifestyle blog, which this is, is that so many aspects of lifestyles are completely subjective.
You just can’t win. To many people your comic book collection is seen about as wasteful as a gas guzzling SUV or a 5 bedroom house. At the end of the day though, and I really truly believe this is a core of your site, it doesn’t matter what OTHER people think.
Your site is here to show most people do not get rich overnight or by accident. Becoming financially rich is a conscious decision enforced by daily habits. Those daily habits are numerous and varied which make it even more possible for anyone to subscribe to their own system and succeed. The only true tenet that applies universally is spend less than you earn and put the difference away towards “richdom”. What you spend on, though, doesn’t matter in the overall picture as long as you’re abiding by that simple rule.
In the end, every single “thing” we own in our lives is wasteful. The only thing that comes with us when we hit the dirt or fire is an outfit. Some of it is just more justifiable to our personal set of values than others. Notice though, it’s a “personal” set of values.
“My spending now reflects my priorities, my goals, my values.”
Love this. So much.
It sums our lifestyle up so perfectly – we I own a $1,500 camera ‘for fun’ and yet we drive older cars. Why the hubs and I both have iphones yet we don’t have a home line or any sort of tv connection.
We spent money where it’s important to us and don’t spend it where it isn’t important.
Love this post J.D. – and I am so excited for you for your traveling!
@JD – Another very interesting read. Funny story about a mini-cooper. A former co-worker of mine, who is about 6’7″ tall drove a mini and looked completely ridiculous in it. “Do you find something humorous about my appearance when I am driving my automobile?” – Simpsons
@Trina #23;
I agree that is an interesting concept to explore. I’m not religious, but I always found this quote very thought provoking.
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” – Jesus
I dont think its neccesarily evil for a person to be rich while millions live in poverty, but having millions of dollars makes it all that much harder to stay humble and make a positive impact in the world.
I’ve told people that if I ever won the lottery, I would give most of the money away. This results in skeptical looks, and they have a right to be skeptical, but its the truth. I wouldnt want that much money because I wouldnt want that much responsibility.
Another good book to read, Your Money or Your Life.
Great post! Please do not stop the frugality posts..Love them! My definition of “rich” is about having options and the ability to pursue what matters most to me. I scrimp on a lot of things that don’t matter so I can do this. I am happier having removed myself from the game of excessive consumption and advertising telling me what I want. The choices I make may not be the most convenient all the time, but I feel happier as a less wasteful/consumptive person. @ Geek #60 – you may want to stop comparing yourself to neighbors, friends, etc. and look at what makes YOU happy. It is quite freeing!
I quit my full-time job a few years back to be at home with my kids. This has meant a lot of frugal living for us since then. It’s also been about making choices.
The other thing: I do coupon (and teach others to do so as well!). I’d rather save in areas that are less important to me so I can spend in areas that are more meaningful. I’ve been able to effectively cut our grocery spending in half. I’ve also negotiated down our other services and we’ve been able to pay off debt, freeing up more money.
Bottom line: sometimes it’s about living frugally in one respect so you can live richly in others.
“I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue – it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.”
I couldn’t disagree more. When, exactly, are you allowed to be content? When you have the $2.3 million house? But to the person with the $10 million house, you shouldn’t be content – that’s just a guise for mediocrity. Strive for the $10 million house!!
I refuse to drink that Kool Aid.
Another one of those darned posts of yours that makes me mumble to myself, “Wish I’d written that!!!” Nice piece.
Agreed that one lives within one’s means and saves so that one can live comfortably and securely, and have the things one truly wants without getting into a bind.
I can’t agree with Alex, though, when he says, “What is so wrong with wanting 5 bedrooms you may never use? What is sooooo bad about wanting a bigger house?”
Nothing’s wrong with wanting a bigger house if you have the family to fill it up. But building a house with five bedrooms that you’ll never use is just plain wasteful. Our world can’t tolerate a lot more waste…it’s time for us as human beings to quit destroying everything in sight just to indulge ourselves.
And while I do agree with ObjectiveGeek when he remarks, “I’d be proud of my dream home if I had earned the means to own it,” (assuming his dream home is like mine: one that fits, not a wasteful vastness of sticks, Styrofoam, and plaster), he’s all wet when he says, “I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue – it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.”
That’s tanatamount to saying good mental health is a guise for mediocrity. If excellence means I have to be stressed and crazy, give me mediocrity any day!
Seems to me that on a site like this, there’s always going to be that sort of tension. Some folks, who really are struggling to pay off debt or who just don’t make that much money, are here for the frugality tips.
IMO, there is something wrong with having 5 extra bedrooms that you never use. So many in this world suffer needlessly, so a few can use so much more? But that’s just me.
Man o man . . .
I love this site.
I love it’s readers and their comments.
I really do.
Thanks, JD. And thanks to the readers too! S
“We spent money where it’s important to us and don’t spend it where it isn’t important.”
I think we all always do this. Some people just think an iPad or a gazingus pin or 24″ chrome wheels for their cars are important. Some people haven’t really thought about what’s important to them, others think they have, but their values are shaped primarily by marketing and peer pressure.
Give anyone $1000 though, and tell them they have to spend it, they’ll spend it on whatever they think is most important, even if it’s tech gadgets and clothes instead of cars and bicycles. The prioritization is entirely arbitrary.
What I like especially about your site and the content of articles is the down to earth and basic concept of thrift and value.
I have regular discussions about affordability, I don’t believe you can ‘afford’ something just because it is financed and you can make the payments each month.
To be able to afford something means you have the resources, ability and ready cash on hand to pay for it either immediately or in the very near future. Calculating the true cost and understanding the depth of debt is too easily ignored.
Kudos to you for clarifying the distinction between ‘affording’ and ‘making payments’.
There is a big difference. Freedom of mind has huge value.
This is a great post, though personally I don’t subscribe to “is the noblest of goals.” At least not if you’re defining noble as “having high moral qualities” or “having or showing or indicative of high or elevated character.”
When I think of someone having noble goals, I think Greg Mortensen of Three Cups of Tea (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/), not having money for what it represents and provides.
That said, I have no problem with others choosing how to spend money differently from me. I am disinterested in fashion and makeup, it’s hardly a stretch for me to avoid spending money there — but I have a friend who loves fashion and looking just so, and for her I think that’s a reasonable place for her to spend her money.
So let’s modify that last tenet, JD — you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want.
Another great post, I really like your financial advise much more than some other famous financial advisors.
I try to be savvy with my money but there are some things I refuse to do like shop at thrift stores or go to the library. Some stuff is just too frugal. I went to goodwill once and didn’t like what I saw, I just really like shopping at department stores but I know my limits. I also like to buy e-books which are more affordable.
Anyway I save in other ways, I realized a couple of weeks ago that eating out was my money pit. BF and I were spending $400-500 on just eating out. Ridiculous.
Now we’re eating in more and saving our money. We do eat out on the weekends though. So we have the best of both worlds. I still don’t have an ipod, my bf gave me an old mp3 player but I barely use it. Its the type of thing that I would only use on vacation or on a road trip.
I think its knowing your habits and what’s important to you which you wrote in your article. Some people care to spend in some areas more than others, for me, I bought my plates from walmart for $25, but I know people who love to entertain and who like having fine china, and that’s fine.
I think its all knowing where you care to spend your money and where you don’t. I definitely don’t care about what type of dishes I have, they’re just dishes, but I don’t judge people who constantly entertain and want the really nice ones.
Anyway, great article I love it! =)
Can we pick another example to slam on besides the 5 bedroom house?
I think we’ve probably all got ways that we hurt the environment, from not turning lights off, to having a swimming pool, using paper towels instead of cloth, buying Stuff, eating fruit that isn’t locally grown, living in what would be a desert without irrigation, or giving birth to children and on and on. I don’t think we should all have to live in a tiny empty high-rise apartment someplace with a temperate climate, lots of water, and good soil unless that level of environmentalism is what we value over anything else. Sure, my inexpensive 5 bedroom house in the middle of nowhere (in which there are about 4 rooms we rarely use and 2 that aren’t really furnished) is wasteful, but we try very hard to eliminate waste in many other aspects of our lives.
“I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue – it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.”
I think it’s ok to strive for more than you have…but you need to understand WHY you are wanting more. If you live in poverty and want adequate, safe shelter, access to healthy food, access to good education, access to health care, I think that is completely healthy.
If you live in a 10 bedroom house and want an extra pool, or want to upgrade from the Beamer to a Jag…that is excess. That type of wanting for more will never be satisfied.
I’ve become a big fan of minimalism, because you learn how little you actually need to live a full and satisfying life. Once you learn what you need, it makes the material wants all the more superflous.
Tyler K., loved your first comment. That’s what I’m trying to do, get down to keeping only the things that have stories attached.
On cars: I’ve driven both the modern Mini Cooper and a Prius, and neither one was as much fun as my 1986 Honda CRX. The Prius *was* more spacious – and infinitely quieter.
Re: trends on the blog: I didn’t notice any either. This is one of my first stops every day and on the rare occasions I’m not interested in the content, ya know what? I just click away.
Finally, agreed that having money is not a noble goal. It’s what you plan to do with it that counts.
“I don’t think contentment is much of a virtue – it’s more of a guise for mediocrity.”
“…having money for what it represents (value, effort, innovation, hard work, success) and for what it provides (freedom, time, safety, opportunity – essentially life!) is the noblest of goals.”
To me, these very disturbing statements quite nicely demonstrate why Americans continue to exploit people around the world for our own gain, and why we continue to use significantly more than our share of the world’s resources. I am deeply saddened to see these attitudes put forth so blatantly in writing.
I like that this post makes the distinction between being able to have anything, and being able to have everything. The purpose of having money is to use it for something you either care about or find useful, but that’s exactly the point: you have to save to spend. Unless you limit yourself from the things you don’t need, or even really want, then you won’t have the money to buy the things you do care about. In which case, you’re either left without them or financing your life on debt, which are both undesirable options.
@ts You are smart to pay off the mortgage. No one should ever carry any debt if they have a choice. I don’t know how young you are, but I hope you’re balancing that with saving for retirement. The younger you are the more important it is to allocate toward long term investments. Surely once the mortgage is paid off, you’ll have plenty to put away for the future.
This hasn’t come up in the conversation, but how much of what we want (or think we need) is influenced by advertising, the media and other people? Do we buy something simply because we can, or do we try to tune into our own value system to determine what’s important for us? Frankly, my friends all drive luxury cars and live in big homes, but they are envious of us because we go to the Caribbean once a year. It’s all what you value.
WONDERFUL ARTICLE, Since I was young my parents taught me to save…Since I began working full-time at 21, I saved the majority of my money and spent money on things that mattered to me. Yes, owning the new ultralight i5 laptop, iPad, and yes the iPhone. Fast forward 14 years later, I’m married my wife and I now drive very nice cars, but yes we make sacrifices we eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch. I carry a flask when we go out to fancy dinners. I have so much fun with it…. I too am a big Dave Ramsey advocate. To me debt is depressing and we have made it our goal to be completely out of debt; My wife and I are 4 payments away from paying off our house, and that’s after already paying off our vacation home………Its wonderful comparing notes with people on this blog. Keep up the great work.
Holly (comment #95),
I agree with you completely. A lot of these comments are disheartening. I found this blog a couple weeks ago and check in from time to time. I guess what I’m noticing the most is that people want to get rich simply for themselves. We’ve been a frugal family since we’ve been married. We’ve set goals and reached them way ahead of schedule. Another comment asked, “How much is enough?” Good question! Giving has been one of the most amazing benefits of being frugal. There really is no greater joy in my opinion. We are frugal and live below our means so we can help others. Contentment is a wonderful word!
It’s tough because there has to be a balance. I don’t think that our frugal lifestyle should turn into removing all pleasure. However, too many times we want to reward ourselves for doing what should be normal (living within our means).
I think that we should first find contentment in God, family, friends and ourselves, and then once our finances are in order, try to enjoy other things (if we need to).
I just think that we place too much of a premium on perishable things!
@q
“Having money because it provides personal opportunity is selfish. Having money because of how you can use it to improve yourself, everyone and everything around you is noble.”
I see a huge contradiction in that comment. Personal opportunity = selfish but improving yourself is…noble?
Taking hold of personal opportunity is one of the best paths to improve yourself, your family and your community. More money = more opportunities and having more influence in your environment.
Can I extrapolate that you might be from an very religious background? Usually the people I meet or read in the comments who say things like this think money as “evil” or “dirty”, like if you work at a crap job 7 days a week for 12-14 hours a day with little pay you are somewhat more virtuous than a millionaire.
Please.
Even if you are a Scrooge and are a multimillionaire most of that money goes back to the government (if they are honest of course and if not it’s get back one way or the other) which, in the best case, would be distributed back to society.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet just recently are giving a call to arms for other billionaires to contribute a majority of their wealth to the betterment of society. Do you honestly think that if they didn’t become some of the richest people in the world they would be able to effect society like they are now with an example Gates trying to eradicate major disease in Africa? What would happen if they were just flipping burgers? I think that’s pretty damn noble.
Great article JD…this one was well-written and really hit the nail on the head. This sort of thing is why I love GRS!
I like to define frugality this way:
You only live for so many years. In those years, you will only make X amount of money. You obtained X amount of “Stuff”. You had X experiences. And you spent all of your life getting to that point. That’s it. That’s all you get. Are you happy with your result?
It’s all about how you divvy all those X’s up. Maybe you deprived yourself too much and didn’t use all the X’s you had. Maybe you were greedy and deprived someone else of their X’s (your wife, children, family, environment, etc). Maybe you didn’t divvy them up correctly. Or maybe you did.
In the end, it’s not a race or competition or “Stuff” grab. It’s making sure you have a smile on your face when your heart takes its last beat.
The comments that spurred this blog entry are idiotic and I don’t understand why JD felt the need to validate them. Alex defended buying “5 rooms you may never use.” Of course this is a problem. Under his premise, he’ll NEVER USE the rooms. We should question any situation in which culture, lack of self esteem, or some other force makes us pay for 5 rooms we WON’T USE. If you’re spending money on such things, there’s probably something going on that’s worth questioning. That same money could be spent on something you WILL USE. It can be given to charity. It can go to dozens of other uses.
There is no reason to justify gross over-consumption. Having the money is not a reason to over-consume. We still need to share this world with several other billion people and a whole lot of animals and ecosystems that keep losing out to humans.
I think it’s interesting the push/pull of a typical American psychology when it comes to frugality and luxury.
On one hand is the Puritanical value system and the Protestant Work Ethic while on the other side is wanting the “good life” and materialism being sold through the media and culture for the past century.
It’s a tough balance but personally I would rather be a millionaire and be potentially corrupted by wealth then feel I need to take the Puritanical road which defines wealth as a sort of an “necessary evil” and worrying avoiding the pitfalls associated with it.
There is nothing wrong with living a frugal live to get to your goals and dreams in the future. Frugality is often confused with cheapness even though they represent two very different meanings.
Someone cheap is only looking for the lowest price on everything, and would probably avoid a purchase at all costs if they could.
A frugal person on the other hand recognises the value of all items before making a purchase. A frugal person makes a conscious decision before giving money away for a purchase.
A frugal person has a plan and purpose, they won’t buy something if they know it won’t give them any value. If however they come across an item they seem very worthwhile (just as you mentioned with your personal desires such as the minicooper, gym, etc.) then there is no reason in avoiding that purchase.
After all, what is the purpose of life if you are not willing to buy the things that you really want? What would be the purpose of saving money if you’re not saving it for something special?
Cheers,
Wahid
So along with marking things as favorites as was suggested above, can you also figure out how to mark the “holier than thou” comments? To me, that’s the only turn-of to reading comments – those that use this as a forum to tell everyone else how they should be living. Maybe a filter on the word should?
Otherwise, I thouroughly enjoyed todays topic!
I can’t wait to read all these comments, but I only got as far as #7 or so – J.D., you said your record player seems to be on its last legs. Check out Fred’s Sound of Music on Hawthorne for repair or maybe replacement – but guard your heart and wallet well. One of my friends makes a pilgrimage there every time he visits from Seattle, and he’s left with more than one tube amp! (I imagine the prices are fine, but it’s a bit of a stereo geek heaven)
@JD and Dink (#2)
After following this blog for about a year and working on my finances, I see that TIME is the most important thing for me. Previously, I had been working 3 jobs and was never at home with my husband. For a variety reasons, I had to choose and par down to one job. Lucky for me my current job allows me to have quality time with my family and also meet my financial commitments. I still have a ways to go for savings/budgeting but am learning as I go.
Had I not been forced to choose, I would still be overworked and unhappy. This year has been eye opening and I see that should I be presented with growth opportunities, I will first consider how this will affect my quality of life…
I may not have all the things I want right now but it’s just not that important any more.
Most of these comments resonate well with me. Sure, there are some not so good ones, but all in all the post was level-headed, as are the responses.
I’ve recently (finally!) gotten out of debt and am finding my legs in terms of what’s next. I’ve always maintained a pretty good work/life balance, but I’m still learning to assess smart purchases (my stand mixer – used regularly), less-useful ones (food processor – used only a couple of times so far, but will probably earn its keep), and flat-out chances of a lifetime (these last are travel related!). I suppose that’s a lifelong learning process!
I don’t think I’ll ever have quite as much financial wiggle room as many of the commenters seem to, but that’s the life of a single-income city dweller.
I accepted long ago I’ll never be able to do/see/experience/have it all, but I intend to have an interesting time of it, no matter how long or short my life is.
@heaps! (#106):
“After all, what is the purpose of life if you are not willing to buy the things that you really want?”
That is SO messed up. I am speechless. I am without speech.
Yep, seemingly plenty of acrimony in some of the comments. In the end, we’re all entitled to our opinions and lives, distressing as it may be to others.
And despite some of the comments seen as hurtful, I think most people who comment here are mindful of their own priorities, and are moving towards more and more of a non-financially-wasteful life. And more power to ’em (and us all).
If you want something in stark contrast, check out the program “How’d You Get So Rich?” which is available online at TVland.com. Makes me feel positively Gandhi-ish.
@Naomi (#111)
I suppose my wording was a little off. To give an example of what I meant think of it this way.
In regards to having lunch at work, a frugal person might give herself $5 to spend and will stick to her budget. She gives herself that amount of money so that she will not go over that. She sticks to her budget so that she may achieve her goals in the future.
A cheap person on the other hand won’t have a particular plan of action. They might avoid go into a certain grocery store or purchase the cheapest item solely to not spend more money. They don’t have a reason to not spend money, they just don’t want to spend.
This goes for all levels of income, no matter what you allow yourself for food, clothes, entertainment, etc. it is important that you stick to your budget and allow a little room for savings. A frugal person knows where and why he or she is spending money.
A frugal person gives a value and weighs the cost and benefit for every item before purchasing.
“We should question any situation in which culture, lack of self esteem, or some other force makes us pay for 5 rooms we WON’T USE. If you’re spending money on such things, there’s probably something going on that’s worth questioning. That same money could be spent on something you WILL USE.”
Just to play devil’s advocate here:), do you use every single device, piece of clothing, eat every morsel of unused food, water and ounce of living space in your life?
Why aren’t you recycling and filtering your waste water immediately for the next meal or wash?
Is every single square foot in your house/apartment occupied by necessities? If it isn’t maybe you house should be a little bigger than a closet?
Do you wear every piece of clothing that you have every week? Actually, maybe that’s too much and you should donate every stitch until you have 1 suit, 2 jeans, and a couple pair of shirts and underwear.
Why do you have kids? There’s an overpopulation boom on the planet.
Sorry, enough of the extremes.
I agree that 5 rooms might be pushing on the excessive side of things when it comes to space but to attack a person as a self-esteem issue? Come on.
Maybe this person is a much higher donator of funds than all of us here put together to a local church or needy organization?
Maybe he’s not planning on having any children and in the end will be way, WAY, ahead in the non-consuming dept. once the person is gone and in so doing help save the planet from overpopulation.
“There is no reason to justify gross over-consumption.”
..as there is no reason to justify a person’s worth in your eyes based off of a blog comment. Unless of course you’re omniscient and have a huge book where you can see their good marks are outweighed by the bad marks in that person’s life.
“Having the money is not a reason to over-consume.”
One person’s perceived over-consumption is another person’s normalcy unless of course you want everyone to be an hermit and live in a cave, but then as the human race goes, we’ll be complaining that the other person has more rocks than others and is ruining the planet.
I love the frugality stuff articles, and I lvoe the too much stuff articles (since I’m struggling myself) I love the how to save, how to make, money hacks and everything that makes GRS just the way it is. Don’t change a thing!! I’ve never been disapointed by your articles, unless they were a little over my head and I didn’t understand them,e ven then, I wanted to, just couldn’t (mostly the investing stuff, which I’m trying to learn)
I love your blog, and am an avid reader. So glad I found you last year!
BTW, I think your current house may be my dream house. Maybe I’ll change my tune when I have a house your size but I don’t have a desire to own a house too big for me to clean on my own. I know there are housekeepers to help with this but it seems silly to own something I could keep up without hired help.
@114 JohnnyLA– Excellent points.
If a person is really worried about his or her carbon footprint (or, I guess, other peoples’ footprints) there are a lot of areas to work on besides just the house. There are a lot of different carbon footprint and environmental impact calculators online to help.
http://www.nature.org/initiatives/climatechange/calculator/ is one of them, but there are others.
And we love our vermipost bin.
I think this summarizes how I feel perfectly.
The most important financial reward my husband and I enjoy is the ability to live off of one income. I work for the time being (we save everything I make), but I have the freedom to work fewer hours if I should ever wish to do so and I will definitely be staying home full time once we have children.
To us, this is much more important than eating out, designer clothes, and hot cars. We have nothing against these things inherently, they are just not priorities for us. Our “reward” for being frugal is having career flexibility.
The site’s tone is fine..I scrimp and save for two reasons–one so I can buy more with the money that I have…and two, so I’m not a slave to climbing the corporate ladder so I can make more money to buy the things that I want.
i scrimp an save because i dont want to go broke,been there before dont like it,i sleep good at nite with $2o000 in my e.f.an building,very,very,good post,mr.jd,even though i would never spend $900 on a bike,those are the exact same things i will be spending my money on.
Quite frankly, all the folx who want to regulate what my family does with our house, whether we use all four bedrooms or not, or whether we’ve got more than they thing we should?
Y’all can all butt out, thank you very much. You’ve got zero cause to finger-wag at people who have different priorities. Yes, my husband and I live in a 2600 sq. ft. house. We have our reasons, and they’re no one elses business. We pay our bills, take steps we can to reduce our impact on the environment and
great article.
another vote here for more articles on sustainable living!!
It’s always a fine line between being “frugal” and being “cheap”. Or “spending like a madman” vs. “just enjoying your hard earned riches”.
At the end of the day, nobody can judge how another person spends their money, you just have to remember that:
a) Saving money can only help you in wealth building in the future. Money begets more money. When Buffett hit his first million he could’ve bought a mansion and a bunch of cars. But he didn’t and look what he did later…
b) Alot of the stuff you want will be completely useless to you after you purchase it and provide you with less enjoyment than the life energy you spent to purchase it.
Personally, I have my own budgeting system where I rigidly define how much money I can spend for enjoyment and how much is for saving. Therefore, I naturally become thrifty because I want to maximise my enjoyment with what I allowed myself. I am also knowing that I am consistently saving the designated amount with every paycheck.
Yes frugality in its basic form is about delaying your spending and actually a frugal person will probably spend more money over their life time as they will receive interest instead of paying it. That is if you really want more stuff? for my part I limit my spending in order to be able to have more time with family and friends and maybe to retire early. Many frugality tips are really in them selfs quite rewarding like cooking from scrach growing some of your own fruit and vegetabiles etc.
it all boils down to this…
spend and save what you have… not more than you have.
No way could I justify $900 for a bike. $150 bike would serve the same purpose.
Hi, this is the first time I’ve visited this site and I think this is a fantastic post. Since being more frugal I’ve managed for the first time in my life to actually save money for the last couple of months even though I’m earning less than before. Because of this I’ve bought less crap, which is great because I’ve just spent an entire weekend clearing out a load of clutter that I’ve pointlessy accumulated over recent years. Looking at the boxes of stuff I was clearing (books/CDs, etc) I wondered how much I’d originally spent on it all and it was pretty frightening, especially as I’m pretty much giving it all away now! I’ll eventually spend the money I’ve saved on more valuable stuff, particularly travel for my family. Great post anyway, just about to subscribe so I don’t miss out in future…
No, sorry. A $150 bike doesn’t approach a $900 bike. It just doesn’t. Come bring a $150 bike on a ride with us and you’ll get an idea. 🙂 Having said that, I would never buy even a $150 bike if I hadn’t met all my obligations and had a good financial cushion in place. Unless you use it for transportation, a bicycle is a want rather than a need. It’s great exercise, but not the only way you can get great exercise.
I got a new job in Jan. that doubled my monthly pay. I was already getting by on what I had been getting paid (which was not much) so I had some extra funds. At first I was spending it on crap but then decided to use it for something more productive. My boyfriend and I signed up with a Crossfit trainer in March and, even though it’s a bit pricey, it has been totally worth it. I am leaner, stronger, happier and healthier than I’ve EVER been in my entire life. Definitely money well spent.
Most people have trouble with spending too much, but I am a compulsive saver. You’d think that would be great for me and I’d be wealthy, but it hasn’t worked out that way.
I save money as I can, then something unexpected comes up (car repairs, unemployment) and I have to spend nearly all that I’ve saved. So I have a good habit in that it’s easy for me to save, but in the end I’m only treading water, just having enough money to cover the next disaster. I feel like my emergency fund is a castle on the sand with the tide rolling in, and who can stop the tides?
I appreciate the reminder that I should spend money on what is important to me. I need to give more thought to finding something important to do with my life. It would be lovely to have big, bold dreams — a house, foreign travel, etc. But those things have never felt like they were achievable for me, and I could never bring myself to dream.
Well said, JD.
We scrimp and save mostly for flexibility or to have choices. At some point, maybe I won’t want to work every day, or won’t be able to. Maybe I’ll have a terrific idea and want to go into business.
We also realize the once food, shelter and clothing is taken care of, everything else is basically entertainment. Like Tyler said, will we look back and 5 years and even remember buying that stuff?
Example: we just had our second child last week and now I’m really wishing I would have saved more in my early 20s so I could take a few months or a year off to spend with my kids. We are in good shape financially, but taking that long off without pay would hurt us, so I am back to work this week.
Dear Mehgan #6, Tell me again about oil being a finite resource with that gusher in the Gulf. There is so much oil under the earth in North Dakota (The Bakken) that America could be oil independent for hundreds of years if it weren’t for our refusal to drill on American soil. On land drilling is very safe, cheap and clean. Deep water drilling is harder, more expensive, not so safe. Why are Americans not allowed to drill for oil on American soil, and make us energy independent from the Middle East which is full of terrorists who want to kill us while we are buying their oil?
Say it. I create my own reality. Say it again. I create my own reality.
Create the reality you want while allowing others to create the reality they want. Once you truly understand and apply this simple statement will your life be what you choose. Allow others to pursue their path – whatever that may be.
Pursue your dreams and create what makes you happy !! The purpose is to realize you always have the ability to create your life.
Say it again. I create my own reality. Have fun.
#14 @Alexandra: Very hilarious!!I nearly peed in my pants!!! (excuse my language) But it is very true what you wrote. Sometimes when I read some of these sites I feel guilty because we have debts and I don’t think that we are cutting enough costs and controlling our expenses. I am still trying to find a balance. When I found all these advices and hints in GRS I became stingy and a controll freak (about our finances) than I changed and started neglecting our budget because I fehlt frustrated. Now I am back on track trying to find a middle ground. Also because I still have to convince my “better-half” that we must control our expenses.
My wife and I are both high school teachers. We do not make a lot money. We have always lived well within our means. We have accumulated over a million dollars in our portfolio, savings, and home (paid for). We only work 8 months a year. We are debt free and pay cash for all purchases. How did we do this? We purchased a small home (corner lot, white picket fence, cottage), quickly paid for it quickly (3 years), stayed out of debt, and we have remained child free. Our friends say they like our shaded, garden patio for parties more than their trophy home decks that they never use.
We have traveled to Europe several times, and enjoyed cruises to Alaska an the Greek Islands. Or friends stay home shacked to the expenses of their large homes and their children, some are trying to recover from the expenses of divorce.
We have never worried about money and seldom think very much about it. We just avoid consumerism and make a game out of economizing. After a while it becomes second nature. Just like going to gym every day or flossing your teeth.
While I haven’t been around here as long as the others what I have read has seemed to be a well-rounded mix of all types of articles covering a large mix of issues. I don’t believe frugality has been over-played and I think it is all part of the big picture.
Unfortunately if you wish to ‘get rich slowly, faster than the speed of light or whatever your means’, you need to be mindful and pay attention to your spending at any level. Frugality does play into that on a daily basis.
“control” is the key here. I can (and did so) spend 200.00 one friday night – my money, earned – and when it’s giving me the reward of “was worth it” then well done.
Steve
The problem for a lot of people is that they have no idea where their money goes, so they feel like they are depriving themselves a lot, even though they do buy a lot of things. The problem is just that those things are small, crappy and not what they really want, they are just substitutes for now, so they do not make them happier, or richer.
I’ve learned to buy the things I want, by saving and waiting, instead of buying cheaper substitutes. Then I know exactly where my money goes, and I get exactly what I wanted. Plus, I spend less in the long run!
This post really captures that spirit, even though you phrased it a bit differently. So thanks! I totally agree with all of this!
Why not want a bigger house or more vacations even if you can afford them? Simple. Climate change! Your consumption increases your carbon footprint, due to increased energy usage. Of course it’s easy to dismiss this unconsciously, but to allow this is very selfish and short-sighted, to say the least.