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Money Minx has decided to make a frugal leap of faith, to move to another city in order to save money. But she has one stipulation that’s causing problems. She’s come to Get Rich Slowly readers for help:
My fiancee and I have cut back on spending and gotten better paying jobs and in addition have each taken on 2nd and 3rd jobs. It’s still not enough, so the only thing left to do is drastic — move to a walkable city. It would have to be truly walkable and have a workable public transit system so that we can give up our one car.
I’ve done my best to find this paradise with online search engines, I’ve asked librarians for help, and i’ve even paid a doctoral researcher to help me compose a list of cities, but to no avail. I’ve found cities that had a walkable part of town for the tourists, but when grocery stores are a 5-minute drive from the houses, that’s not what I call truly walkable. Also, as in Houston, the buses don’t go everywhere, and a normally 20-minute car ride will take you at least three hours on a bus. That’s just not realistic.
I was hoping you could ask your readers to respond with places they know of so that we could research them as viable options. My national employer will not move us to California because of the labor laws. Other than that, the only requirement we won’t budge on is that it not be too cold. A rare snowfall is tolerable, but not guaranteed snow each year.
Is your city walkable? What’s the cost of living like? What are the financial advantages of living where you do? The disadvantages?
I live in Portland, Oregon. Portland’s downtown area is very walkable. The city is constructed on a human scale, with small blocks and roads that aren’t too wide. There are many walkable neighborhoods scattered throughout the city (including parts of the downtown area). The mass transit system is good.
However, I’m under the impression that Portland is moderately expensive place to live. There’s compensation in the huge recycling/frugality ethic present in the city. There are all sorts of cheap things to do, cheap places to go, and restaurants filled with cheap food. We’ve got places like The ReBuilding Center where people can get inexpensive used housing materials. Bicycling is accepted here; thousands of people bike to work daily.
But it does rain here. A lot.
What advice can you give Money Minx? Where can she move in order to save money? Which cities are most walkable?
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April 16th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Unfortunately, I live in an area (middle Georgia) where public transit doesn’t exist. Everyone drives cars. If you don’t have a car, you either have to hitch a ride or sit at home.
On the bright side, the cost of living is quite low!
Hope the move works out for you (assuming you read this).
April 16th, 2007 at 8:43 am
Asked and answered over at AskMeFi.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:04 am
I just got back from a trip to St. Louis, MO and from what I experienced there it’s rather walkable. They have the subway and buses that pretty much go everywhere, although I’m not sure if it’s more for tourists or not.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:10 am
I live in Charlottesville, VA. The general cost of living isn’t low (in fact, it’s somewhat high), but I consider the city walkable. Public transit is pretty sound; I’ve ridden it almost every day during my 3 years at law school. The main mall, several smaller shopping centers, grocers, and downtown are all accessible via bus. If you get an apartment on the bus line, you’re all set. If you work or attend UVA, you can ride city buses for FREE (plus UVA’s own bus system).
The climate is pretty good, but there is a bit of guaranteed snow every year. Maybe 1-2 times, but it’s not bad. The buses still run, the streets get plowed, and life goes on. We moved here from Texas and adjusted easily. The summers are definitely much more pleasant.
Best of luck!
April 16th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Columbus, Ohio.
Home to Nationwide Insurance/Financial’s HQ and JP Morgan Chase has an office setup. Bus system is decent, and you can land a good priced house/apartment a few blocks from a grocery store if you try, if you don’t like taking the bus, that is.
Home to OSU so Football season downtown is pretty hairy (some Buckeye’s are crazy).
No train system. Bikers are all over the place (uh, the trendy kind, not the leather kind).
Actually, I have a couple friends that are flown to Connecticut/New York City every other week or so because it’s cheaper for them to live here and be flown there to do work as needed, rather then pay them the necessary salary for them to live in those areas.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:15 am
CHICAGO! Not necessarily downtown, but the Metra Train System is a lifesaver. I never drive to downtown Chicago, I just hop the train. It’s quick, cheap, and all over the place. linky –> http://metrarail.com/System_map/index.html
Depending on what type of atmosphere you are looking for, there are tons of ’suburb’ cities with train stations right in the middle. Also, depending on what type of housing you are looking for, the prices are relatively inexpensive (i wrote an article about my own moving to Chicago experience on my blog)
There are tons of other methods of transportation once you get ‘down town’ such as bus lines and FREE trolleys. As for ‘the necessities’ within walking distance. I would recommend a suburb city of Chicago on the metra line. West Chicago isnt bad, neither is Geniva or Wheaton. Check out the cities on the metra rail map and see what you think!
April 16th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Where does Money Minx live now? This question contains an assumption that isn’t easy to verify without more information. The assumption is that moving to a city with good public transportation will save her and her fiance(e) because they can give up a car. I don’t know if this is true. The cities known for good public transportation–NYC, Chicago, SF, DC–have a higher cost of living. And you still have to pay for a transit pass. And, correspondingly, in smaller cities and towns, the cost of having a car can be less–no cost to park, lower insurance premiums, lower taxes on gasoline, etc.
Again, I don’t know the situation, but I find it really doubtful that moving to a city with good public transportation and getting rid of the car would be cheaper than moving to a city with lower housing costs and keeping the car.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Chicago is indeed great, but doesn’t meet Money Minx’s requirement of a snow-free city. That puts the nix on most of the best possibilities; many of the newer cities in the South were built with cars, not people, in mind.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
@Carl: Chicago is cold. The entire midwest is pretty much out based on the “not guaranteed snow every year” rule.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Another I would recommend is Madison, WI…that is if your job/career exists there. I know of plenty of apartment places (and houses) within walking distance to grocery stores. The walking/biking culture in Madison, WI is HUGE as it is a college town, and somewhat ‘liberal’ almost ‘hippy-ish’ when it comes to being green. Along with the walking/biking comes a pretty good and cheap bus system. Check it out for yourself –>
http://www.cityofmadison.com/metro/Schedules/RoutesSchedules/RoutesSchedules.html
April 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
I find living in Pittsburgh (the city, not suburbs) has wonderful bus and transit systems. Because of the old eastern city feel the city has been able to maintain, each neighborhood has its own shopping district within walking distance and (for the smaller neighborhoods) on bus routes. Compared to bigger cities, Pittsburgh’s cost of living is quite reasonable as well
April 16th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Andrew from Charlottesville has the right idea, look for a college town in the south. I live in State College PA (home of Penn State) and it is very easy to get around. Since the university is the major employer and over 40,000 studenst are enrolled here almost everything you need to live are located within a couple miles of the campus, and there is a pretty good bus system.
State College may not work for you because it gets lots of snow every year but I bet you could find a college town in the south.
Good Luck.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:23 am
booooo on the ‘no snow’ rule. Get a coat. Also, Madison, WI has had very limited snowfall the past few years. Same with Chicago…until this year.
April 16th, 2007 at 9:43 am
NYC is a wonderful place to live if you don’t want to own a car. It is also a wonderful place to live if you enjoy paying out the nose for shoebox-sized apartments and air pollution.
(I kid because I love. When I lived in Brooklyn–for a very modest price, but only because I was subletting from a friend, my living expenses were less than they are now on a college dorm. It’s a wonderful city, but probably not a good option for a couple who already have taken on 3rd jobs just to make ends meet.)
April 16th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I’ll also recommend Columbus, Ohio. The bus system for the metro area is pretty good, and extends into the suburbs pretty deep. Biking is very much accepted, and the insurance and financial industries are booming.
Plus, it’s relatively inexpensive to own a home here, and as long as you can avoid the absolutely stupid OSU fan-zombies, there’s lots of culture and entertainment.
After moving from Dallas and DC, I LOVE it here.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:02 am
Montreal. Many people, including professionals, do not own cars.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:07 am
I live in Philly. In South Philly. I live in a house that I rent for $700/month. My husband and I don’t have cars and rely on walking and bicycling to get around. I used public transit to get to my job.
Center City takes about 15 minutes to walk to…its the “downtown”.
In my neighborhood there are many, many grocery stores (American and non American) as well as everything.
West Philly is another inexpensive neighborhood (the further you get away from University of PA). They too have groceries/farmers markets, etc, etc.
However, SEPTA (the transit authority) has a “crisis” every year related to their budget. There was a strike that lasted two weeks about a year or so ago. And there is talk of raising fares and/or cutting services. But if you live in South/West or the center you don’t even need SEPTA.
But…for some bizzare reason many people here do own cars. I know very few people personally who don’t own cars.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:11 am
I live for a year and a half without a car in DC. I barely use the car we have now. We walk to everything, or bike, or blade.
DC, if you plan it right, or NOVA, can be very cheap, if you know what you’re doing.
It also doesn’t snow here but once a year.
caseyserininfo AT yahoo DOT com
I would happily help you out.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Commenters, notice this part:
“Other than that, the only requirement we won’t budge on is that it not be too cold. A rare snowfall is tolerable, but not guaranteed snow each year.”
Chicago, IL and Columbus, OH are both excellent choices, but disqualified due to the fact that it snows every year.
I find the criteria to be ridiculously unrealistic, especially given the snow criteria, and the apparent USA criteria.
That mindset just isn’t firmly enough planted here. Wouldn’t it make some sense instead to apply all this effort to improving your current city’s transportation issues?
And if you find yourself in a city that has a grocery every few blocks (NYC?) are you going to complain about the limited selection in each of these smaller groceries? Anyone would be happy to have it all, but everyone has to be satisfied with some compromise.
Also, check out findyourspot.com for some other options you may not have investigated. And focus on college towns.
Or move to Columbus and deal with the snow. It’s the best city I’ve ever lived in.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:17 am
I live outside of Columbus Ohio, but I have a car. Technically I live in the city for police services, trash,etc. But I live in a different town as far as schools and actual mailing address.
Where I live I need a car, but the cost of living is low. I am living in a house I will own one day ( technically am now renting it from the in-laws, but in a few years I will have a down payment saved and better credit and buy it for whatever is left on their mortgage) and it is a bargain. As long as the property taxes don’t get too carried away by all the school bonds, my house payment will always be low.
I also drive a car that has been paid off over 10 years and drive at the most 10-15 miles a day so the cost is minimal.
This is my long way of saying, if you live somewhere where rent/housing is a good deal, you may not need to go car-less. They probably cancel out or WORSE ( it may cost literally $1000s a month more to rent/own in an equivalent “walking” city).
But then again, others above have said Columbus IS a walking city ( I dont spend much time in the “city”). So there you go.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Ive only been here 2 years and other than the interesting late winter this time, I havent noticed that it really snowed a lot.
Of course this depends on what experiance you are coming from.
I am originally from and grew up in Maryland, which I consider mild seasonal weather..and so far Columbus seems no worse. Its warm in the summer, cold in the winter….
Save money and keep the car, drive to work/stores.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:26 am
There’s no place like Philadelphia, whose natives have no idea how good they have it.
It’s among the most walkable cities I know. We have bicycle lanes, regional rail, the Market-Frankford El and a good bus system, any of which you can take to the world-class museums, restaurants and sports teams here. The waterfront is redeveloping with amazing results. NYC and Washington are each about an hour and a half away and are each reachable by train or Interstate 95. (The Chinatown buses take you to NYC and back for $20, round trip, making it a fun day trip.)
You can buy a charming old Victorian in most neighborhoods for under $150K and in many places for under $100K. Some New Yorkers even live here for the high quality but low cost of living and commute to their jobs in NYC!
We do get some snow, it’s true, but not that much.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:46 am
El Paso, TX meets some of the requirements.
Advantages:
- Inexpensive living costs,
- Good public transportation (buses take you everywhere)
- Never snows or 1 time a year.
- Cosmopolitan city, a lot of friendly Mexicans, some South Americans, Europeans, Chineses and Indians.
Disadvantages:
- Low pay jobs.
- Extremely hot in summer (over 30 days with temperatures over 100 degrees)
As you can see, El Paso is a quiet small city with an inexpensive cost of life, the only issue here is the lack of opportunities and the hot weather.
Good luck in your search,
TexMex Curious
April 16th, 2007 at 10:46 am
Is cycling an option? Half hour walks become 6 minute cycles quite easily. I know the US doesn’t have much of a bike-centric culture, but maybe you can re-evaluate your shortlist based on the assumption of a bicycle. I do my grocery shopping using my backpack and bike; panniers will give you more capacity and an easier cycle (it’s easier when the weight is attached to the bike and not your body). Even if you don’t think the whole city is bike-accessible then you could use it to get to your public transport location of choice (cycle to the train station, bus depot, etc).
April 16th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Having lived in DC, Baltimore, and Philly, three very walkable cities, I am largely confused by the request. Typically, in terms of historic development a walkable city is a very old place that developed before the automobile was invented. Usually means an older metropolis with public transport (though I think the public transport in Baltimore sucks eggs).
I vote for Philadelphia as the cheapest place to live out of most east coast cities. I don’t know what life is like south of DC, but I hear Charleston and Raleigh are quite nice for low cost of living. Walkable is debateable for a lot of places since the newest, best places to live in many regions is in the suburbs.
I do love Philadelphia and you can bike around the city pretty easily or take your bike onto the train to go out to the suburbs. For high walkability, try Chestnut Hill, the Italian Market/South Philly, and University of Pennsylvania. Fishtown is getting nicer, and I’m always partial to Mt. Airy. But alas, I fear that Philly does not meet the snow requirement.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:13 am
There are far too many other factors that come into play to make this question as simple as it seems. For example, you have to factor rent, cost of living, and local salaries into the equation…it doesn’t do you much good to find a walkable city if you’re going to be paying more in rent and earning less. The cost of using the public transportation system has to be taken into account as well. Also, if the issue at hand is simply a car payment, what about staying where you are and trading in your car for an older used car that’s in good condition? Or what about moving to the suburbs of your current city where the rent is probably a lot cheaper?
April 16th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Have you tried looking at cities that have flex-car or one of the other car sharing services? This would allow you to get rid of your car and still have one available for those trips to the grocery store that is 5 minutes away.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Do you intend to give up the car because it will save you money, or because you like the idea of a “car-free” lifestyle? If the latter, then sure, follow the suggestions above.
If the former, even freeing up $500 a month (from payments and insurance) might not make up for increased rent/food/etc. costs if you move to a city well served by transit and with walkable neighborhoods; those features come at a premium. (And, for the record, unless you hew pretty closely to the CWE, Metrolink in St. Louis doesn’t meet my standard for “well-served.”)
So if the goal is to pay less (or nothing) for a car:
Have you looked into the availability of Flexcar and Zipcar in your own area? Have you considered trading in for a smaller car? Have you renegotiated your insurance?
I obviously don’t know all the particulars of your situation, but “move somewhere to dump the car so we can save money” sounds like swinging a hammer where a flyswatter is needed.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:36 am
What’s considered walkable for some isn’t so walkable for others. Buffalo (NY) and Milwaukee (WI) are very walkable to a large extent, but there are sections of the cities that aren’t so walkable. But I do know people in both cities who walk everywhere they need to, and they take a bus if they need to go across town for some reason.
Charleston (SC) and Savannah (GA) are both reasonably walkable, as well, though the most pedestrian-friendly sections of town are also quite touristy.
From what I recall, Boulder (CO) is quite walkable. Eugene (OR) is reputed to be walkable, but I’ve never been there….
April 16th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Here’s a link I found on the internet; I was kind of surprised by a few of the cities in this “top ten.”
http://walking.about.com/od/trails/tp/walkcity2005.htm
April 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
I don’t know if Canada is an option for you but I lived in Toronto for quite a while on a very modest amount on money. It is fairly cheap to live as far as housing and food goes and the trasit system is wonderful. I could get from my apt downtown to the dock in about 45 minutes. The city is also very bike friendly…
April 16th, 2007 at 11:55 am
If you are looking for a city with a good public transportation network, look at college towns. A lot of college students (including myself) do not have a car, so they must rely on their feet or the bus to get places. I know you might not want to live in a small town where the only people around are the crazy college kids, but a larger city surrounding a college would most likely have great public transportation (Because college students are poor too!).
April 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Given your that your options are wide open, you might want to try answering the quick quiz @ http://www.findyourspot.com.
I would recommend that each of you answer the questions, then compare the 20 places that it gives you as good communities to consider. Good luck!
April 16th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta Atlanta.
It meets all of your criteria:
-Low cost of living (especially compared to all other major cities). Low cost of housing (and not much of a real estate bubble either).
-Plenty of job opportunities.
-Warmer weather (still gets cold in the winter, but rarely snows).
-Pretty good public transportation, has MARTA subway system, and pretty decent buses.
I’ve been here for 7 years, since I came down here for college (go Yellow Jackets!) and it’s been hard to leave because it’s such a good place to live financially.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
I live in Vancouver, B.C. It’s temperate (if rainy) and if you pick your neighbourhood with your commute in mind, it’s entirely possible to live without a car - I’ve never gotten my driver’s license, and have always used our public transit system to get around. Our city is known for its high cost of living, but it also depends on how flexible you are: if you plan to rent, and you can handle living in the suburbs, you can get a reasonable place a short walk from the SkyTrain rapid transit line. At its farthest point from downtown, it’s about a 40- to 50-minute SkyTrain ride, and the trains leave every 2-5 minutes.
In my experience, a lot of people give up on the idea of taking public transit because it is a lifestyle shift. It does require more planning than driving. For me, I have always chosen my living spaces based on proximity to transit and/or walkable city centres. Even in the suburbs (at least in Vancouver) there are pockets where condo towers or housing developments are clustered near mini-centres with grocery stores, coffee shops, libraries, etc. It does narrow the possibilities, but if you’re committed to making the lifestyle change you can do it.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Houston shouldn’t be discounted, despite its reputation for horrendous traffic and LA-like sprawl. The cost of living and housing is well below national averages, has a thriving job market, arts, sports, a famous medical center and is an intense international business connection.
Park ‘n Ride systems from the downtown business districts to various ‘burbs make commuting more efficient than years past, and there is a more aggressive attitude - finally! - about dealing with the overall transportation issue here.
Also, there are pockets within the city limits (specifically, inside the 610 loop) and out that either exist or are planned to cater to the “small village” concept and walking/cycling or mass transit to work.
Down side? Pollution that rivals LA, insipidly hot and humid summers and the occasional threat of a hurricane. Texas does not have a state income tax, but state, local and special interest sales taxes vary from county to county.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Based on the criteria, I have to ditto the Southern college-town suggestion. I happen to live in one (Tuscaloosa, AL).
Apartments are plentiful, and if you live on/near campus most everything you might need on a day-to-day basis are in walking distance - grocery store, drugstore, hospital, public library, etc. There is also a FREE public transportation system. I’m not sure what their entire route is, but I know it goes past the mall, a Target, another grocery store, and at least one doctor’s office.
As for cost of living, I’m not sure what you’re financial situation is, but my husband and I live quite comfortably on about $3,000 take home per month. We have a nice 2 bedroom/2 bath apartment (a few miles off campus), 2 cars, of course insurance and utilities, plus a couple of luxuries like cell phones and digital cable. Since you wouldn’t have a car payment or insurance, yur most basic expenses (rent and utilities, assuming an apartment of comparable size to ours)would probably come out to less than $700 per month, if that gives you any frame of reference.
Best of luck, dear. If you have any questions about Tuscaloosa feel free to ask, and I’ll try to help.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Hey JR
What’s the GOOD WORD?!
Class of 03.
Though, my career prospects were better in DC.
I live in Arlington, VA. I cannot tell you how easy it is to walk to everything and not even bother with a car…
April 16th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Denver, CO is a mid- to large- sized city with great public transportation. Our RTD system has even won some national awards.
You can get just about anywhere on the metro-area’s bus system — the more suburby you get the less convenient it will be, but it’s possible to most locations. Anywhere inside the immediate Denver city limits should have very good to excellent public transport access.
There are a series of light rail trains, which right now are clustered in the downtown and south/east metro area although the next phases are under development to extend it north and west. There is also a growing movement to have apartments/condos located within walking distance of the train. These apartments, I’ve noticed, generally charge a premium for this location feature. At least one apartment complex I know of has a free shuttle to their nearby light rail stop.
I’d classify Denver as a more expensive place to live, though it won’t rival CA/NYC. Still, it’s not as cheap as the midwest cities — my sense is that it’s on par with Portland and slightly less expensive than Seattle in terms of cost of living.
The biggest consideration is whether you’ll be able to find work in Denver, depending on what sort of work you do. If you’re looking for an IT or engineering job you’ll have a harder time in Denver. I don’t know about other industries as much.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
DC Economist Says:
April 16th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
“Hey JR
What’s the GOOD WORD?!
Class of 03.”
TO HELL WITH GEORGIA!
April 16th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
I lived just across the Potomac from DC (in Alexandria and Arlington, VA) for a few years. Arlington especially is very accessible. But housing is expensive, though less expensive than DC proper.
You also might try Chapel Hill, NC. It’s a college town with lots of pedestrians. Easy to walk or bike everywhere and the bus is FREE. The only thing is you would be very confined to Chapel Hill as the bussing to Raleigh or Durham is not that good. Having said that, there’s plenty of entertainment b/c of the UNC campus. Not much snow either.
April 16th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Ok, so obviously some people missed the requirements about snow. Denver definitely will always have snow. I hate the cold too and I hated my 4 years in Colorado. I agree with the recommendation on Atlanta, I know they have good public transportation and it’s pretty warm (they don’t call it Hotlanta for nothing!).
One thing you might want to consider when trying to find an area with a low cost of living is the military cost of living/housing allowance. The various charts at https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/index.html can help you get an idea of the relative costs of different areas.
Overall though, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect moving to a city with good public transportation to lower your expenses. Cities usually add more costs everywhere else in your budget. Also, paying a doctoral researcher to find you a place to live sounds kind of ridiculous. Maybe getting a bike, carpooling, or moving closer to work in the same area would be a better option? If your car is the one thing keeping you from getting by, maybe you have bought a car that is outside of your means? I certainly hope you didn’t buy it brand new with a loan.
April 16th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Actually, I don’t think the answer is moving to a big city that’s walkable. I think the answer is moving out of big cities altogether.
When I lived in Portland, OR, I paid $750 (6 years ago, rents have gone WAY up since then) for a 1 bedroom flat in downtown. I walked everywhere and my sister and I shared a car (but different apartments), so we split the costs — $250/mo payment, only about a tank of gas a month ($20-25), insurance was about $100/person. Subtract from that the cost of two bus passes — $75 because we were students — and you ended up with a net savings of only about a hundred bucks. This was quickly eaten up by extra iterative costs — no wash machines, so we had to use the in-building washers at $3.50 a load, and because I walked to the only nearby grocery store, Whole Paycheck, my grocery costs skyrocketed.
Base Hypothesis, mostly proved: THERE IS NO SAVINGS IN LIVING IN AN EXPENSIVE AREA AND DOING WITHOUT A CAR.
In contrast, I now live in College Station, TX, which is a small city that’s rapidly growing. The median house price is at or under $100k. Yes, you need a car to get around, but median 2-br apartment rent is $400. Employers pay less in general because the cost of living is stupid-low, but if you have a college degree you can both pull in $35k+ pretty easily and the university always has jobs open. My total out-of-pocket for food, rent, utilities, car, etc. is roughly $1320 on $2000 takehome… which leaves a nice chunk of change to play with. I also consult a lot on the side, which means my net monthly income equals my sister’s net monthly, and she lives in downtown San Francisco with an apartment rent of $1300/mo for what I’d call a broom closet.
It’s possible to live here without a car, but you have to pick your apartment community based on the bus system, which is provided by the university.
Really, live in a rural college town. You won’t find what you’re looking for in a big city unless you can get paid VERY well to live there.
But you really should look at better money management before you look at an expensive move. It should be more than possible to live on two people’s income in Chicago, especially with second and third jobs!!!!!
April 16th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
You can find reasonable living spaces within walking distance of many downtown jobs in my hometown of Richmond, Virginia. As long as you don’t have/want kids, don’t mind panhandlers/drunks/gangmembers, and are agile enough to dodge a stray bullet or two, then you’ll be in fine shape.
April 16th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Here’s an alternative idea for you. Sell your 1 car that you have and use the proceeds to purchase bikes for you and your wife. A very nice bike can be had for under $1,000. Once outfitted with the proper equipment such as a rack, panniers (essentially bags that attach to the rack), lights and fenders, you have a cost free mode of transportation except for maintinence on the bike which is much cheaper than the car.
By doing this, you greatly expand your options as to what city you wish to live in. A 5 minute drive by car through a city to a grocery store becomes no more than a 10 minute bike trip and you can carry quite a bit back from the grocery store in your panniers.
Check out http://www.bikeforums.com and their “Living Car Free” discussion group for some other helpful ideas and the people there would be more than happy to help you along your way.
Good luck to you!
April 16th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I’ve got to second Debz nomination for Houston. Houston is a Very affordable place to live.
Although bikes and walking are certainly cheaper than cars… they are inheritently very limiting. There’s a reason cars are so pervaisive in American culture…. they are just about the cheapest general purpose transportation means available to us. Mass transit is great when it goes where you want to, but when it doesn’t what do you do, rent a car? The reality is to have ultra-high density where walking and bikes are effective you also have huge infrastructure costs that translate into higher taxes and higher costs in goods. That means a higher cost of living. I’ve heard plenty of anecdotal evidence about the cost of McDonalds in NYC vs. the rest of america, for example.
My brother-in-law lives in San Francisco without a car and he loves it, but I wouldn’t believe for an instant that his cost of living is anything close to what I pay to live in Houston. The tradeoff is I have to drive 30 miles to get to work each day.
If you really want to reduce your transportation costs… the trick is to live near work. I have a friend that lives in Houston and works 4 blocks from his apartment. He doesn’t walk (he hates the humidity), but he’s only put 25K miles total on his car in the last four years. Before buying my house I also had an apartment 1.5 miles from work (and I would walk) and I would only fill up my gas tank once a month.
A last comment: living car free is wonderful if you can do it. It has all kinds of benefits, but I’m doubtful that one of those benefits is cost.
April 16th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Wow. Thank you all so much! I am eager to look into all the links and to dig into the other suggestions.
I’ll admit that my fiance and I are used to and like 110 degree weather, so we truly do want to live somewhere warm. But there is a 3-year + wait at my company to get into the states that are cold. My company (insurance) needs people in the south and midwest to handle the all the extra hurricane and tornado claims. But that doesn’t mean that I won’t keep the colder cities in mind for later when I have the seniority to truly be able to live where I wish. So I appreciate the advice on these cities as well.
Yes, it is best for us to make a lateral cost of living move right now. But I still appreciated hearing about the cities that were more expensive. Down the road when debt is no longer an issue and if our salaries have increased enough, these cities may be viable, so I appreciate these as well.
Thank you for all of the great advice! These are all excellent suggestions and I can’t wait to get started on the research.
April 16th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Actually, I was just thinking about this not so long ago, the idea of giving up the car and moving into the city where the market is steps away and the job is a bike away.
I live in New Orleans. The whole city is maybe 10 miles wide, max. There are buses everywhere, street cars, taxi’s, and a ferry.
There is affordable rental property everywhere and all within walking/bicycle/bus ride distance from anywhere you would want to go. there are farmers markets and grocery stores right in the center of the city and everything you need is nearby.
People are afraid of New Orleans, though, and rightfully so. I am a 23 year old girl and have gone out in the city my whole life mostly alone to meet up with friends and have never had a problem, so I trust it.
There is a very bohemian vibe here. two bedroom apartments range in price from 500-1500/month, single family home prices in decent neighborhoods start at about 150k on up.
April 16th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
also- New Orleans weather is mostly Beautiful, the summers can reach 85 or 90 but the winters can range from 35 degrees to 75 degrees. there is a lot of sunny and mostly sunny days and parks all over the place.
It’s sandwitched between a lake and a river which keep the temperatures comfortable year round, keeping the opressive heat at bay but also keeping all of the snow far to the north of us!
April 16th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Well hey — the gist of the question was about great public transportation, and Denver has great public transportation. We also have much less winter than the average person who’s never been to Denver thinks.
But since I obviously missed the requirement for no snow, I’ll withdraw the nomination for Denver. We don’t need more transplants here anyway.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
I’m still trying to figure out where you currently reside. 6 jobs and you still need to do more? Thats insane!
Now that you explained the reason the colder states are off the short-list, it makes this suggestion a little less pertinent: Though New Hampshire’s cost of living is pretty north east, but we have no income tax. Or sales tax. We do pay for it a bit in property tax, but I don’t know if you even are looking at buying and its not to hard to find great deals on space around good places.
Just my NH pride 2 cents.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
I’m in Austin, TX and could live without a car easy. I live within walking distance to a grocery store and all that I need, with an 30-minute bus ride to the university campus area (figure 5-10 minutes extra for downtown), compared to a 20-30 minute drive time for campus-downtown.
I’m moving to an apartment that is a five-minute walk from downtown and a 10-minute bus ride to a grocery store.
While some areas of the city are not walkable at all, many areas are. Bikes are used often here and public transportation includes car sharing programs, buses and a soon-to-be-launched light rail system.
Of my five years in Austin, I’ve lived in five different areas of town and never really needed a car.
April 16th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Take it from someone who was unhappy in St. Louis for three car-less years: St. Louis is not walkable (nor will it meet your temperature requirements). Though there are neighborhoods that are walkable and a rather good light rail system, the city’s high crime rate and many cold, cold days prevent the place from being a truly walkable city. That being said, I adore St. Louis with a car.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
My vote is for Chapel Hill and Carrboro, NC. Beautiful weather, free bus transportation, and nice bike lanes. We live in Carrboro, which is very walkable.
But cheap it ain’t.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
College towns are good place to look, many are walkable and reasonable in the downtown area.
However, I’ll argue that the best one is Iowa City, IA. It fits the bill of everything except weather (it gets cold here, really cold. But also really hot during the summer). The university is pretty much always expanding, and there are lots of other businesses (many medical) in the area. If you live near downtown, you can walk to almost everything required (the biggest grocery store would be a long walk), however the bus system is very nice. On top of being a “walkable” place to live, there’s also plenty of “culture” available (Big Ten university known for it’s writing program, plenty of music venue’s, etc).
April 16th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
If your not afraid of the canadian cold, Montreal is the answer.
I live in a 2 bedrooms apartment for 775$/month (Canadian dollars) heat and electricity included. The grocery store is right across the park and it takes (literally) 3 minutes to walk. If I want, I can walk to a local market (marché Atwater) and buy local produces from farmers and have access to a huge variety of cheeses, meats, etc.
I don’t have a car and don’t intend to ever buy one. But, if I need a ride, I can always become a member of Communauto, a car-sharing private company.
The public transit is efficient. I live 4 minutes away from a subway station that can take me easily to downtown Montreal and all it’s commodities and night life.
Although everything seems perfect, I would like to comment cars and a possible future.
Either we like them or not, the introduction of cars in modern living has enabled many people to become free of geographic restraints. By refusing the use of a car, the world we live in becomes smaller and diversity disappears. North America was developed through highway policies neglecting public transit for many (political and financial) reasons.
Also, most good paying jobs are not located in downtown areas anymore. Look around you, talk with your friends, your family, people you know. Jobs, good paying jobs, are located outside downtown cores. This can be explained through historical, technological and financial reasons. By refusing to depend on the car you make a choice, a very hard choice, to navigate against the unplanned city development.
This is not a bad thing in itself. If you have the cash to purchase a residence, or a block of apartments, you could easily make money and have an enormous advantage when oil barrels will reach 70, 80, 90, 100$ per drum. It’s inevitable, oil is a finite resource without known alternative (biofuels are not massively available while hydrogen is a mean, like a battery, not a source of energy). Which means = $$$ for the smart investor.
Good luck!
April 16th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
I’m surprised Seattle hasn’t been mentioned yet. The bus system is great and light rail will be ready by 2009. It is relatively expensive (don’t know what it’s being compared to) but salaries are usually commensurate to cost of living.
April 16th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Depending on what you do, Atlanta is walkable.
It has a very small transit system, but there are tons of opportunites on that system.
There are grocery stores on it, and flexcar also has a major presence many places on the main line.
April 17th, 2007 at 4:47 am
While changing country might not be an option, the density of cities with good public transport is significantly higher in Europe than in the US. Cities like Helsinki and London might be good examples of what to look for. Admittedly cost of living is higher over here than in the US, which promptly wipes out the savings…
April 17th, 2007 at 5:48 am
I live in Washington, DC. Many of my friends who live inside city limits - my girlfriend included - live without a car, and take the Metro, a bus, or a bicycle to get around.
On the minus side, living in a low-crime, trendy urban neighborhood where one doesn’t need a car… rent is high, and owning a home is almost impossible if you don’t own one already.
There are several neighborhoods here, however, that are currently under urban redevelopment/gentrification, and offer affordable living, metro access, things to do, places to eat, places to shop, and whatnot.
I think you might be best served by a small city, instead of a mid-size or larger one. Vancouver and Pittsburgh both strangely come to mind.
April 17th, 2007 at 6:24 am
JR…
Ha, Im an economist buddy. Willie Belton is the man. In two weeks, I’ll be at the NFL draft, and I guarantee that aside from Calvin’s family, I’ll be the only one wearing his GT jersey.
April 17th, 2007 at 7:25 am
NYC: too expensive
DC/NOVA: also pretty expensive
Philly: Your best bet in the Northwest. I lived there for basically nothing. Grocery stores are ridiculously cheap, and they have decent public transportation, and downtown is walkable.
The Sun rule limits you considerably.
does anyone actually read the 62nd comment?
April 17th, 2007 at 8:32 am
Martin, a few people might indeed read the 62nd comment, but more than anything the comments here are proof positive that the majority of commenters to blog posts don’t take time to actually read the original post.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Boulder, CO has great public transportation for a city of its size. The climate is generally beautiful (it really doesn’t snow THAT much, an it isn’t nearly as cold as the East or Mid-west). The people who live here are very environmentally conscious and generally in great shape, making the city very walkable and bikable. It’s can be a bit pricey, but nothing like LA, NYC, SF, etc.
I also think Austin or Dallas are good choices.
Good luck!
April 17th, 2007 at 10:56 am
ZedFable:
In order to take my higher paying fabulous new job, I had to transfer to SC. He is still in Houston. Supporting two residences temporarily wipes out the gains, but once I’m transferred again, it will have been worth it. I substitute teach for my second job (I’m a catastrophe claims rep — I’m either out of town working or home and not working [sort-of]) and he (a middle school teacher) works summer school; earns stipends by teaching ESL, yearbook, and soccer; earns stipends by being the Title III Coordinator and team leader; speaks at conferences; grades TAKS tests. He is also enrolled in a graduate program. None of his “extra jobs” earns a lot and he’s only a 3rd year teacher so his income isn’t that great. (He got teacher of the year! I’m so proud of him. He works really hard.) We were so stooopid with debt!
Kraft:
If you don’t mind, can you tell me which part of Austin by naming a few street corners on the outer boundaries of the area you’ve mentioned? My fiancee would like to drive there with his bike and look around, but Austin is huge! And he’s not sure which part you’re referring to.
Everyone:
We’re very, very grateful for all of your responses! You’ve all given us a lot to think about.
April 17th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
It’s funny how everything is all relative. Some of you have posted that so and so city is great, maybe a little expensive but not as expensive as say CA or NY. Meanwhile, I’m thinking that your city is expensive to me. I live in a subburb of San Antonio. You can spend a lot on a new home or get something very decent for around 100K give or take. I just got gas this morning for $2.60.
It definately does not get cold here. But if you are used to Houston summers, you’d be fine here.
In some places you can go with out a car. Seems like most all of the neighborhoods have an HEB grocery store, Super Wal-Mart, and a drug store close by. But we do have a good bus system should you wish to venture out a little further.
Great cultural vibe.
Tons of places to go to- great zoo, Riverwalk, Alamo, Seaworld, 6 Flags. Problem is, you might find relatives planning their vacations at your house.
Best of luck to you!
April 17th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I live in Minnesota, we get snow so i guess that is out but we have good public transportation one of the best in the US and we are always ranked as a top place to live, raise family, and such. we also have the most technologically advanced city in the US (according to popular science). the snow really isn’t that bad. a downside is we have some of the highest taxes and now they are going to make it so couples who make over 250,000 have to pay 10% tax (highest in nation) so that will affect us so that is a big downside. Chicago has decent transit, most major city’s have good transportation.
good luck
April 17th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Ha; Walkable… I live in LA, baby. We drive everywhere. Even 2 blocks away to get to Target.
I absolutely hate this because I grew up in NYC for most of my life. There was a subway that never ceased a block away from our house and anything that you could need out of pure convenience was a 5 minute walk away.
I saw on American.com today, that they had a story on this exact subject :http://www.american.com/archive/2007/april-0407/walk-this-way
I haven’t read it yet; I was saving it for later. Check it out.
April 17th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Oh, and may I add that Portland, OR is indeed a great place in some parts. My fiance’s family lives there and it’s a great place. I liked Seattle a lot too.
DC could be OK, but you have to be willing to take mass transit, or live in a high priced suburb in MD or VA. DC’s nice. I like it.
Um, I hear SF’s good for walkability, but it is more expensive to live there than LA!
April 18th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Keep in mind that not all parts of the Portland Metro area are all that walkable. For all of the accolades Portland gets for being a “green” city, we’ve still got suburbs here that pretty much look like any other place in the US. And lots of those suburban areas aren’t well served by public transit either.
Also it’s worth noting that the walkable parts of Portland are more than “moderately expensive”. The Portland Tribune had a front-page story the other day about how expensive real estate is here now: The couple featured had a household income of $100K, but couldn’t afford to buy in Portland.
April 19th, 2007 at 4:32 am
It seems that most people on here are missing something: BICYCLES. You can often live car-free in a city with moderate public transit if you have a bike. I do food shopping with my bike with saddlebags and occasionally use the bus-mounted bike racks.
April 19th, 2007 at 8:07 am
I’m going to repeat the suggestion of Atlanta and biking. I live here car-free and have no problem getting around. Specifically, check out Midtown. There are plenty of new condo highrises going up and two grocery stores in the neighborhood. That said, Marta (transit) is really kind of mediocre, so again, consider biking. Also, Flexcar is available for occasionally borrowing a car. We get snow here one day a year and the whole city shuts down for it.
April 19th, 2007 at 9:28 am
what the hell do you mean “not enough”?
3 jobs and it’s still not enough?
instead of decreasing your costs of living how about you increase your education.
the best way to increase wealth is to MAKE MORE MONEY. you can only cut your COL so much until you’re completely miserable.
April 20th, 2007 at 6:29 am
Umm…Columbus, OH, is NOT a walkable city. Certain neighborhoods are, and if you don’t mind being mostly confined to a neighborhood or two, then fine. Or if you live and work on the same bus line then fine. Otherwise, good luck. If I wanted to ride the bus to work it would take 1.5-2 hours if everything went smoothly, versus a 20 minute drive.
And while biking is trendy on the many bike paths, how often do you see people commuting via bike? I maybe pass one or two a day in nice weather and I think they’re extremely brave. I disagree that biking is accepted; many drivers are complete jerks to bikers. I bike on the main roads as little as possible.
We also have a pretty high crime rate compared to the population size.
Don’t get me wrong, Columbus is cheap, there’s a fair amount to do and yet it feels more like a town than a city. People are generally friendly. But you’d better bring a car and a shovel.
April 20th, 2007 at 8:28 am
Charlotte, NC is quite reasonable for cost of living purposes. I agree with a previous poster that Carborro/Chapel Hill is a nice, walkable area, but it is pretty expensive. Raleigh isn’t bad, either - but you have to live in the more expensive areas in order to live “car free.”
CLT’s public transportation isn’t great, but it is getting better. They’ve recently introduced many more park and rides and expanded the bus lines. Light rail is coming next year to the south part of town, and any new roadways have to have bike lanes added. The Central Ave area is pretty reasonably priced and pretty funky.
We get maybe 1 small snowfall a year, if that. Most years we’re out grilling by the middle of March and don’t need to turn the heat on until the end of December.
Another good resource to check when relocating is UrbanPlanet.com
here’s the charlotte link:
http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showforum=131
May 16th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Columbus, OH is my home town — currently reside in Woodstock, GA - the trade off / Columbus is fairly easy to drive around -not the 2-3 hours it takes me to get from the city of Atlanta home (yes - I wait in traffic over 2 hours most mornings). Columbus has cheaper groceries, housing around the same and the pay is somewhat better (nurses hourly rate). Prior to living in Woodstock, I lived in Nashville - talk about an expensive city!! Columbus - Woodstock - Nashville - every city needs to improve on their transportation… MARTA(Atlanta) is OK for the Braves games, and to the airport… but is so crowded - maybe the answer, keep the hoopty, work virtual, and order in our groceries!! Banking, bill paying - online. What do you think?
June 7th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
I’m from the bay area, but living in Seattle. Low cost of living to what I’m used to, and very walkable. Seattle is divided up into neighborhoods that are basically like small towns within the city. Each one has it’s own grocery stores, shops, etc. There is a very reliable bus system as well. I moved here because compared to the bay it is a much more affordable place to support myself while putting myself through school.
July 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm
I second Elizabeth’s vote for Chapel Hill/Carrboro. We moved here from Texas and couldn’t be happier. This is a mega college town so it’s built with students in mind - and they don’t all come with cars. Buses are free, very bike/walkable, world class health care facilities, environmentally and educationally focused population, lots of stuff to do, and the weather is much better than Columbus, Ohio (you couldn’t pay me…). Our utility and property tax bills are a fraction of what they were in Texas. Rent is decent, buying a house is pricey but do-able. Good luck!
July 4th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Puerto Rico, has a cheap bus system, it doesn’t go everywhere, but most Borinquen depend on it for transport. Housing is expensive. There is subsidized housing.
There were a lot of High Tech Job adverts in the paper while I was there. It was pretty easy to get around on a bicycle in San Juan and Arecibo.
Housing can be cheap if you don’t mind living on a boat.
It doesn’t snow there, you can live on the beach.
You probably need to speak spanish.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:26 pm
why are you afraid of snow?
July 24th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Have you considered Washington state? We average about 2″ of snow, for about 2 days and not consecutively either every year;) Last year, we got 6″, and for 2 days the snow man held his own. The problem here is that for about 8 months of the year, it’s over-cast…nothing but gray skies. Can be gloomy. But, the public transportation system is excellent in King County (Seattle and surrounding areas) and Pierce County (Tacoma and surrounding areas). If walking is your thing, this is the place to be. Cost of living in downtown areas is steep, but nearly a 24/7 bus system and well lit streets, you don’t have to live in the city to have access to all it has to offer.
Going south of Seattle, the quality of life gets a bit slower and there are more horse ranches here I think than day spas (which are plentiful).
Warning though, Tacoma though it wants to be, isn’t exactly where you want to live unless you enjoy standing with your back against walls and smelling air that reminds you of dead skunks on a warm day. Housing is cheap, and from what I’ve been told you get used to the smell. I’m out in Dupont, WA and it does make a difference.
July 26th, 2007 at 7:06 am
We live in Decatur, Georgia, which is just 3 miles from Atlanta.
The Marta train is four blocks from our house & takes us downtown in 11 minutes. Our neighborhood, Oakhurst, is filled with charming bungalows and century-old trees. Every street in Oakhurst has sidewalks and we’re within walking distance of restaurants, an art gallery, a dog park, playgrounds, good schools, and a coffee shop.
Flex Car is also taking off in Atlanta and a number of its vehicles are parked around the Decatur area. http://www.flexcar.com/
July 30th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
New Orleans. Walk-ability — having everything you need in your neighborhood at your disposal — is a way of life here. I’ve traveled and lived all over the country and NOLA is the only one that truly offers a walkable life outside of really big cities like New York and Chicago.
August 12th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
We just moved to middle georgia, too, Macon, it’s cheap, but public transportation looks non-existent. The nearest bus stop is about 2 miles away, as is the nearest grocery store. Rent on a decent 1 bedroom $500-$600, 3 br homes seem to be in the $130-$200K range it’s looking like salaries average somewhere between $9-$15, we’re from Columbus, GA, pretty close in proximity and situation, same cost of living, useless public transportation and very little walkability. I’d say central and southern Georgia are useless in this respect. I know that the Newnan, Peachtree City, and Fayetteville areas would be useless, too. Downtown Atlanta is very walkable when you are visiting(it’s practically a requirement), but I’m sure you’d have to use public or personal transportation to buy necessities, food, etc, even if you managed to live near enough your work.
In this area, maybe Athens would work? It’s smaller, there are tons of college students and a lot of “stuff” downtown within walking distance. I just don’t know about employment or anything, I’ve never actually been.
There’s snow, sometimes, even down here. If you wanna cook, though, it’s a great place to be. We’ve been over 100 all week.
Seriously, I wish I could help… I wish I could find the place you’re describing myself, but I have yet to see it. I can vouch for Kileen, TX and Riverside/Moreno Valley, CA, also. Neither fits the bill. It doesn’t entirely matter since you can’t go there anyway, but most of southern California requires personal transportation. Without it, you’re left working at the Mcdonald’s up the street or getting up at 3am to ride the bus for hours.
November 10th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Humor me here a moment. Houston, while not walkable from one end to the next, does have a comprehensive transit system and a climate in which you can ride a bike year round. I grew up in Boston and lived in SF for five years so I know all about the truly walkable cities. As an artist, I can’t really afford to live in any of the East Coast/ West Coast blockbuster cities. I can’t afford my own hometown, that’s sad. I have heard Philly is cool and I’d check it out…but if it truly is the sixth borough, how long before it becomes over-saturated and expensive? I dunno. Whoever told you that it takes 3 hours to go 20 miles on a bus in Houston prob. never really rode on a bus. When i first moved here all the natives thought i was crazy…white girl…yankee…with no car. That’s because the natives suffer from a failure of imagination. Most people here had a car when they were 16. I ride the bus and light rail all over town…right to the grocery, bank, etc. I ride my bike everywhere else. The best way to handle Houston’s sprawl is to pick a neighborhood that has everything you need, coffee shop, grocery, laundry, yoga etc and try to operate as much within that sphere as possible. And, you have to drop your expectations that it will be arranged anything like a Boston, Chicago, SF. It is the new south and v. much feels that way. I live in the Montrose neighborhood which prob best approximates a classic city neighborhood. The other upside is that the economy is thriving, good paying jobs are plentiful and we have a v. high discretionary income. We call it the $40,000 a year millionaire phenomenon. Your money goes a long way here. I looove Houston.
March 9th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Well… California is the most wonderful place to live (for warm climate) but the rent is expensive… you need a car for every single thing….. the minimum wage is $8….. but many of my family friends are moving to Texas and the rent over there is cheap ($600 for a 3 room house)and they have a lot of job openings…
California is kind of crowded and Texas has more open space and a lots of green areas…
well don’t know if my little description will work but i can definitely say that in your situation, Texas is better..
May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 am
We had a VERY walkable city when we lived in downtown Seattle. The metro buses were free in the downtown core and ran everywhere. Pike Place Market right downtown…grocery, shopping, entertainment, nightlife…I absolutely LOVED it! NOT DRIVING!!! Didn’t need a car and if I wanted one, there were the ability to rent hybrid cars by the hour if the need arose to go shopping at Costco.
But it isn’t cheap…THE ONLY drawback…if the cost of living wasn’t so high at the moment we’d still be living there and hope to be living there again as it was perfect for our lifestyle.
May 18th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Peru is very cheap!
May 29th, 2008 at 1:35 am
Hello, I live in Philadelphia. I grew up here, moved to Fla for 10 yrs then came back. Sometimes I am sorry I did come back. I didn’t particularly like Fla but a lot of things changed in the city while I was gone. It it not what it used to be.
It is also not cheap. The public transportation isn’t bad if you don’t need to go outside the city but it is also not cheap. We are told it is the 2nd most expensive in the country. Also the city taxes are high. If you work or if you live within the city limits you have to pay city wage tax on top of all the other state and federal taxes. Housing is also not cheap unless you want to live in the bad areas and learn how to avoid muggings and drive bys. Once you get outside the city limits the housing really goes up in price - not a cheap place to live. Public schools in the city are also not very good.
Center city is walkable and some neighborhoods have stores etc.. close enough to walk. Most neighborhoods are not what they use to be. People mostly keep to themselves - not horrible but not as friendly as it used to be.
I myself am planning to leave in a couple of years. I am just getting my finances in order so I can do what I want to do.
Good luck with your search.