Dave Ramsey changed my life.
In the fall of 2004, I had over $35,000 in consumer debt. I was making a solid middle-class salary, but I lived paycheck-to-paycheck. My money habits were terrible. When I looked into the future, all I saw were years of toil to pay for the things I’d already purchased.
Then a friend loaned me a copy of The Total Money Makeover, a book by some guy I’d never heard of named Dave Ramsey. I had nothing to lose — I read the book and then followed his plan. I was amazed to find that I had eliminated most of my smaller debts in just six months. Over the next 2-1/2 years, I paid off the big debts, too.
Live like no one else
Ramsey’s method is not easy. It’s not a get rich quick scheme. It requires sacrifice, hard work, and focus. In fact, printed on the bottom of every page of The Total Money Makeover is the book’s motto:
Ramsey explains: “If you will make the sacrifices now that most people aren’t willing to make, later on you will be able to live as those folks will never be able to live.” The book is peppered with inspirational testimonials from real people who have taken this philosophy to heart, sacrificing the present for the sake of their future. To me, this is awesome stuff.
At the core of The Total Money Makeover are Ramsey’s seven “baby steps” to financial freedom. By following these in order — and not moving on to the next until the current step is complete — readers gradually progress from debt to wealth. They get rich slowly. Here’s Ramsey’s plan:
Step one: Save $1,000 cash as a starter emergency fund
Before you do anything else, says Ramsey, you must save a $1,000 emergency fund. This money is to be used only for emergencies: car repairs, medical bills, etc. At first I thought I could skip this step. It only took a couple of setbacks for me to realize the wisdom of setting this money aside. If you have a cash cushion, life’s mishaps won’t force you deeper into debt. You’re able to recover more quickly.
Step two: Start the debt snowball
Once you’ve built some savings, it’s time to tackle your debt. You do this with the debt snowball. Here’s how it works:
- List your non-mortgage debts from lowest balance to highest balance.
- Pay the minimum payment on all debts except the one with the smallest balance.
- Throw every penny you can find at the smallest debt.
- When that debt is gone, do not alter the monthly amount used to pay debts, but pay all you can toward the debt with the next-lowest balance.
This is the most controversial part of Ramsey’s plan. Critics note that it makes more sense to pay off high-interest debt first. Even Ramsey admits that the debt snowball isn’t mathematically optimal. That’s not what it’s about. “The reason we list smallest to largest is to have some quick wins,” Ramsey writes. It’s about behavior modification over math.
Step three: Finish the emergency fund
Your $1,000 emergency fund was only a start — after you’ve eliminated your non-mortgage debt, it’s time for some serious saving. Ramsey’s advice is fairly standard on this point: accumulate three to six months of living expenses. For most people, that’s $5,000 to $10,000.
The easiest way to do this is to simply take the money you were applying to your debt snowball and convert it into a savings snowball. If you were paying $500 each month toward debt, now throw that money into a high-yield savings account.
(This is the step I’m on now. I have a couple thousand dollars saved. My goal is to set aside $10,000 by the end of 2008. Because I’ll soon be writing full-time, I’m actually hoping to save $20,000, but that may be a bit of a stretch.)
Step four: Invest 15% of your income in retirement
While you’re completing the first three steps (especially the first two), Ramsey recommends suspending all investment activity, even if you have a 401(k) with an employer match. He saves investing for last, once good habits have been established. It’s true that you’ll give up a few years of compound returns in your retirement accounts, but that’s okay in the long run, he says. By following the first three steps, you will have developed smart money habits and a strong saving ethic, so that it won’t take much effort to catch up.
Now that you’ve paid off your debt and saved for emergencies, Ramsey says to invest 15% of your income into mutual funds. He recommends diversifying evenly among several broad categories of funds. Invest anywhere you have an employer match first, and then put money into a Roth IRA. Put the rest of the 15% wherever it makes the most sense.
Step five: Save for college
Once you’ve begun saving for your retirement, you can turn your attention toward your children. Ramsey writes, “Saving for college ensures that a legacy of debt is not handed down your family tree.” Use an Education Savings Account or a 529 plan to save for your children’s college education.
Ramsey also emphasizes that kids can work their way through college in an effort to minimize the loans they need to take out. My favorite piece of advice, however, is to seek scholarships. One of my best friends is a financial aid counselor at a major university. He says that it’s mind-boggling how much scholarship money goes unclaimed every year. The students who know this are able to fund most of their education through scholarships.
Step six: Pay off your home mortgage
Once you’ve taken care of everything else, it’s time for a final, giant step. Ramsey advocates prepaying your mortgage. He’s aware of the objections, but he believes it’s a smart step, anyhow. (For more on this subject, see my recent article on prepaying your mortgage.)
Step seven: Build wealth
If you’ve done all these things — eliminated debt, built emergency savings, invested 15% of your income, and paid off your mortgage — you can begin to build some serious wealth, says Ramsey. By following the first few baby steps, you’re far ahead of most Americans. But with the final step, you can enjoy the fruits of your labors. Invest. Give. Have fun. If you want to buy a boat and you’ve completed the “baby steps”, then buy a boat. Just don’t go into debt to do it.
Minor reservations
Though I agree with most of Ramsey’s philosophy, some of his advice rubs me the wrong way. For example, Ramsey advises readers to avoid debt altogether — no credit cards, even after you’ve paid off your mortgage. I used to subscribe to this line of thought, but now I recognize that credit cards can be a useful tool, if you have the discipline to pay them off every month.
Also, Ramsey writes that “separate checking accounts mean one of two things, either ignorance or problems”. This is ludicrous. Couples should choose a method that works for them, whether that’s joint or separate accounts. Don’t believe there’s only one way to manage household finances.
Highly recommended
When I first read the testimonials in The Total Money Makeover, they reminded me of late-night infomercials. “After years of making only $48,000 a year, with hard work we paid off $78,000 of debt in twelve months.” Yeah, right. But now, three years later, I could write one of those testimonials myself. (Heck — this entire review is one big testimonial.)
Ramsey’s advice strikes cynics as simplistic. But his steps work because they are simple, and because they provide tangible results. Your $1,000 emergency fund isn’t just cheap insurance against Real Life; it’s a visible reminder that you have succeeded, that you can save, that you can be smart with money. The debt snowball is built around quick wins, which give you the confidence to continue.
The Total Money Makeover is not for everyone. If you don’t have a problem with money, there’s nothing here for you. If you have a handle on your personal finances, you’re better off reading The Random Walk Guide to Investing [my review] or The Bogleheads’ Guide to Investing. But if you’re one of the millions who struggles with debt, who can’t seem to escape living paycheck-to-paycheck, then The Total Money Makeover is a must-read. Your local public library probably has a copy or two. Go borrow it today.
This article is about Basics, Books, Debt, Gurus Tuesday, 26th February 2008 (by J.D. Roth)


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February 26th, 2008 at 5:07 am
I like Dave Ramsey’s work and program. I think you are right to disagree on the credit card issue.
I think the best way to think about Dave is this. He needs to sell books, advertising time on his radio show, etc. So he has to take it to the most extreme level as possible. This helps sell. Also when people see extreme, they may get started on the path and only go 1/2 or 3/4 of the way. If he wasn’t at the extreme, that 1/2 way might not cut it to help people get out of debt.
Just a thought.
February 26th, 2008 at 5:14 am
This book changed my life as well…
While I realize why some folks criticize him, I still ‘roll w/ Dave’. He keeps things simple and he helps folks who don’t want to spend hours worrying about their finances do well.
Great review, as usual.
One thing I do disagree w/ Dave about is the use of percentages. I don’t think that 15% in retirement is enough, in many cases. But, I understand why he can’t get too specific, considering his huge audience.
Rock on,
NCN
February 26th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Hi J.D.,
Your story sort of reminds me of the inspirational story by Bob Proctor. It was in the 1960’s and Bob Proctor was a fire fighter in Toronto earning $2,000 per year and was $3,000 in debt.
Things weren’t looking up. His brother gave him the book, Think & Grow Rich. Bob studied this book and within 1 year he skyrocketed his income to over $100,000 and then later went on to become a millionaire.
February 26th, 2008 at 5:59 am
If I was still in debt when I read the book, I’d wager it’ll have a big affect on me just as it did to NCN and you. Dave’s the one to go to if you want to knock down debt medium-to-hardcore style. If you follow the debt snowball plan to the latter, I can’t imagine anyone having issue paying off their debt.
He’s definitely not the one to go to for wealth building advice, as that’s pretty lacking in this particular book (but it’s a debt tackling book after all).
His credit card stance drives me nuts, and is always a hot topic amongst PF enthusiast. I got in debt trouble via credit cards too, but even w/o credit I’d most likely be in the rut. Like many financial instrument, it’s a tool for you to use. You can either abuse it or use it wisely. If having plastic encourages you to spend, avoid it. If you can master the card and reap the (many) benefits, then it’s all peachy.
One part of the book that rubbed me the wrong way was his suggestions of military service in order to pay for college or avoid higher-education debt. While I have no trouble with military service, it’s a pretty important decision and shouldn’t be mentioned lightly in a sentence or two.
The high-price financial courses/packages pitched in the book are also a turn-off. If you’ve read his other works before, you can probably skip out on Total Money Makeover (unless you need additional encouragement).
February 26th, 2008 at 6:20 am
The “Law of Attraction” is bogus Secret new age baloney, and cannot hold a candle to Ramsey’s TMM precription.
I never had the debt problems many folks have had, but I still find Dave Ramsey’s show inspiring. Hearing folks create success through hard work and sacrifice makes me look that much closer at my personal finances and question what else I could do without.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:28 am
Perhaps I should read this book … I’ve gathered a Christian perspective from other reviews, though, and that’s not something I’m into …
But, here’s my question: All of these books make it seem so simple and yet it’s not. For instance, we had the $1000 emergency savings and had to blow $400 of that last Sunday in vet bills because our dog succumbed to cancer. So now I”m feeling overwhelmed to build that back up, which only sets us back in other areas. I feel like by charging that amount I would have at least saved myself anxiety.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Why must all gurus be bald, middle-aged men with glasses and a fu-man-chu? Am I the only one that notices this?
But seriously, I think it’s great how many people Dave has encouraged. Even if his advice can’t be optimal for each specific individual, think how many people are striving to no longer live in fear of their finances.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:39 am
My ex-wife and I paid off 70k in two years on an income less than that using TMMO.
I do disagree with Dave a bit though in that credit cards can be tools those miles are hard to resist. Like Dave says I never heard a millionaire say they got that way using airline miles.
I will say this though I will follow Dave’s rules most likely for the rest of my life. Because of Dave’s principles I now actually have money to invest wholeheartedly in my retirement and not just meeting the employer match.
Its not that hard “Common sense for your dollars and cents”
February 26th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Shawn wrote: Perhaps I should read this book … I’ve gathered a Christian perspective from other reviews, though, and that’s not something I’m into …
There is most certainly a Christian perspective. Ramsey quotes Bible verses frequently. This bothered me at first, too, but my recommendation is to read it anyhow, but just gloss over any proselytizing. He’s not really out to convert anyone, but to back up his arguments with scripture. (Last summer, I wrote about how to read a personal finance book so that you can filter the unimportant.)
Also, Ramsey recognizes that dipping into your emergency fund can be a mental blow. But his argument — which I agree with — is that it’s a bigger mental blow to go further into debt when problems arise.
Looking back, it looks like I edited out a paragraph about his advice for “logjams”. If you’re having trouble saving the $1,000 or getting started on your emergency fund, Ramsey recommends drastic action. Sell something (preferably something that costs money to keep, like a car). Take another job. Do something to bring in some extra money in order to break the logjam. Once things begin flowing, you’ll be okay.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:59 am
As a beneficiary of Dave’s methods (I paid off over $90K in debt over 3 1/2 years and have $18K in an emergency fund) I am persuaded to come to his defense on the credit card issue.
Dave teaches behavior modification. Do you know why every quick mart and fast food restaurant takes plastic now? Marketing studies show that people spend 10-15% more when they use plastic instead of cash. It is that behavior that made restaurants and other places see the potential for more profit - even with the added cost of installing the ACH machines and paying Visa 2% of the total bill. On average then, even if you pay your bill each month, unless you are extremely disciplined, it is likely you will spend more with plastic.
Additionally, consider your spouse’s feelings about using a credit card. My wife is adamantly opposed to having a credit card, because she never wants to risk going back to the debt-ridden life we had. I am not going to sacrifice my wife’s peace-of-mind so that I can earn frequent flyer miles or get that snow globe I always wanted.
If you are debt-free, have an adequate emergency fund and are saving adequately for retirement and college education, you have zero need for Dave Ramsey’s book. If, though, you are in the vast majority of people who don’t fit that demographic, don’t be critical and whine that Dave is “too extreme”. He makes it perfectly clear that his method is not “so easy” as one writer above said. He says it is hard, it requires changes in your behavior, and it will not happen overnight. If you want to change your family’s lifestyle to where you don’t fight about money, and you can assure that your children’s children will always have financial peace of mind, it is well worth the struggle.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:03 am
I have to admit this guy makes my skin crawl. Why? I heavily disagree with a number of his steps.
If I were to do it I would modify them as follows.
1. Save $500. The orginal $1000 is too much if you are drowning in credit debt.
2. I actually agree with his point about building motivation.
3. It depends. In my case according to Dave I should have around $20,000 in a high interest savings account. What a waste! I would invest in company match retirement accounts to get some free money and keep a secured line of credit as the emergancy fund. Talk about over insuring yourself against problems. In some cases some cash is a good idea, but each case is different.
4. At least 15% if not more. Depends on what you want in retirement and if you are going to retire early.
5. Invest a little, but keep most of the cash for step 6. Think about how much easier it will be to help your kids if you don’t have the mortgage when they go to university!
6. Agreed.
7. Should really say “Good job, your now on your own two feet. Decide for yourself what to do next.”
Tim
February 26th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Stephen, my own feeling about credit cards is this:
A person trying to get out of debt should not have them. There’s no need. In fact, they’re an impediment to the goal. Even once you’re out of debt, it’s not wrong to refuse to use them. However, if you really have taken control of your finances, then credit cards can be a valuable tool. But only if this is the case.
I was very nervous last summer when I got a personal credit card again for the first time in ten years. I didn’t know if I could handle it. I suspected I could, but I was worried. Turns out I’ve been fine.
But I wouldn’t have been fine three years ago.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:13 am
The high interest savings account is an emergency fund that is meant to be liquid. Retirement accounts are not liquid - they don’t make good emergency funds. Nor do lines of credit, as those are what get most people in debt in the first place.
JD, do you think 3-6 months of expenses or 3-6 months of net income is a better choice as an emergency fund?
February 26th, 2008 at 7:15 am
I rolled my eyes over all the Biblical mumbo-jumbo, but it was otherwise a good book and will help a lot of people who don’t know where to start.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Shawn,
Ditto on Ramsey’s perspective, but I fast-forward or grit my teeth through those moments on the podcast and keep going.
As for the difficulty of keep-on-keepin’-on, I think this is where Ramsey has it exactly right, and a little wrong.
It’s a dollars-and-cents problem for sure, but it’s primarily a mental problem. We save in our emergency fund, something unexpected happens, and we empty it and have to start all over again. But we do that in one fell swoop, and don’t have to worry about the credit card bill that hangs over the next four months. Instead, we get a clean slate every month.
I don’t know how to explain it more clearly than this, unfortunately: we focus on the short term of the long term. The long term is paying off a certain debt. The short term is the amount we pay that month to get us there. We re-calculate our budget month to month. If we’re uncomfortable with how low our savings is at the moment, we back a little off the debt and sink more into the savings, so the next month we can feel better about putting more into debt.
Paying off debt as aggressively as Ramsey recommends is exhausting, no doubt. Sometimes inserting a little flexibility into his step-by-step plan is exactly what you need to get over those humps AND stay on track.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:16 am
The 3-6 months emergency fund is pretty much a staple with any personal finance program. Money magazine, Kiplinger’s, Dave Ramsey… all mention it. You can disagree, but don’t bash Ramsey for it. It’s pretty common.
It needs to be 3-6 months of expenses. Let me set up a quick example:
Income: $2000
Expenses: $1999
Net Income: $1
Emergency fund needed to cover 3 months of expenses: $5,997
“Emergency fund” needed to cover 3 months of net income: $3.
If you lost your job, that $3 is not going to help.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:18 am
@Justin: I think whatever makes you most comfortable is better. Obviously, the more you have saved, the better you’ll weather a storm. But it is possible to set aside too much for emergencies. I think each person needs to decide what’s comfortable for him. For me, I want $10,000 saved. I *really* want $20,000, though, because this writing thing is a huge leap of faith. I figure $20,000 would buy me almost a year.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:23 am
No Debt plan - what I meant was 3-6 months of expenses (meaning enough to pay the bills - in your example $5,997) or 3-6 months of income (meaning what we get paid per month minus taxes, FICA, etc. - $6,000 in your example.)
I forgot to add that much of the value in TMM comes in teaching people to sit down and do a budget with their spouse - giving every dollar a name.
Personally, I respect Ramsey for not pretending that his religious convictions have nothing to do with his finances. Though the Bible isn’t a handbook for personal finance, I appreciate that his beliefs impact his total life perspective.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:26 am
I have to disagree on something. David Ramsey’s plan is even good to read and follow for those who AREN’T in debt. I recently did his online course when he offered it free to veterans. Lots of good advice on all areas of dealing with money, buying and credit.
He does a good job of pushing you to change your mindset about “I want it now” and putting everything on credit and living beyond your means….for those of us not in debt, it would give us a bigger financial cushion if we thought this way and were prepared with an emergency fund that would cover us should we lose our job.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Devoting 15% of your salary to retirement accounts would be great but it just isn’t realistic to anybody in the lower or lower middle class (say under $40,000). I am a frugal home ownwer and 15% is just not something that is realistic based on my lower middle class salary. Sure if I was earning $50,000 or more a year I could contribute 15% to a retirement account. I think 7% would be reasonable. Remember the savings rate in America is around o%.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:39 am
I discovered Dave Ramsey about four years ago. At the time, I thought I was swimming in debt because I owed $2,000 on credit cards. Before Dave, I figured that it would take me about a year to pay it off. After I started listening to Dave, I realized that I needed to take a hard look at my lifestyle. I wasn’t making a lot of money but my basic expenses weren’t that high either. Most of my money was going to eating out, buying books, clothes, DVD’s and other luxuries. I cut my lifestyle down to nothing and paid of the debt in a few months. After the debt was paid off, I quit following the debt snowball. I stayed out of debt for a couple of years but then I slowly started to accumulate debt again. About six months ago, I decided to get out of debt again. I know this time that it is going to take longer than a few months and I am ready for the long haul.
I really like Dave’s position that the choices you make will lead you to where you end up. This may seem like something an elementary school teacher would say to her students but I think that a lot of adults need to hear this advice as well. Of all the finance “gurus” out there, I agree with Dave’s positions the most. I disagree with this stance on credit cards but pretty much agree with everything else he says.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Question: Is the 15% figure 15% of after-tax income or pre-tax income? Thanks.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:53 am
I think JD nailed it when he said “Obviously, the more you have saved, the better you’ll weather a storm.” when it comes to emergancy funds.
That’s where I’m sitting. If I cash out every assest I had I can pay for over 8 years of expenses. Hence $20,000 in cash to me is a waste.
Tim
February 26th, 2008 at 7:53 am
While I would say that Dave Ramsey changed my life, too, I agree with your few criticisms whole-heartedly. I’ve listened to him (less regularly these days) for years and subscribed to his TMM website before. Dave is best when he sticks to money matters and stays out of marriage counseling (beyond occasionally pointing out that someone may need professional marriage counseling). Leave it for the professionals, Dave.
Also, as an atheist, I’ve learned to “tune out” when he gets on an evangelical rant like the oft-repeated “it’s god’s money” jag.
But on balance, he’s brilliant, his philosophy brilliantly simple.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Ramsey’s plan talks about eliminating all non-mortgage debts. What about student loans? Student loans are generally lower than mortgage rates, so I’ve never known where paying off your own student debt fits into the plan (before saving for children’s education? Before investing?).
February 26th, 2008 at 8:01 am
My only concern is what about college loan debt? I have paid off all credit card debt, have $5000 in a savings account, but have $40,000 in very low interest (~2%) student loans that have been put on the back burner while I save for a house. Does Dave Ramsey’s book suggest I pay off the college loan at the expense of saving for a house? That seems wrong, but perhaps I am missing something. Great review of a book, J.D.!!!
February 26th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Here’s one reason why Ramsey hates credit cards:
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/104466/Card-Sharks
*HT- Joe Sangl
February 26th, 2008 at 8:06 am
This book helped my husband and I turn around our finances last year. We are now members of Dave’s MTMMO site and I find the boards very inspiring and the budget tools helpful.
Our library did not have this book, so I filled out a form to request that they get it … and they did. I read it for free and then we later took Financial Peace University. Excellent investment!
February 26th, 2008 at 8:07 am
@Shawn
I’m sorry to hear about your puppy. I had the same reaction as you the first time I had to hit the emergency fund. The perspective I finally came to is to look at the entire system as a whole. I’m using the leftover money from my paycheck toward improving my financial health, and I have a game plan to make that happen. Once I accept that, it doesn’t matter if that particular money goes into an emergency fund or pays off a debt: it’s being put to good use.
@Phil A.
Don’t forget that, according to Dave’s plan, you’re not attempting to save that 15% until all your debt is gone, save perhaps a mortgage. The only bills you should have at that point are your rent and your utilities. 15% can still feel like going up the down escalator, but if you’ve followed the steps, at least the escalator has stopped moving.
Dave’s ideas for budgeting have been mentioned earlier, but this was the most important part of the program for me. Creating a cash budget where I set aside the money in advance is the single most important financial skill I’ve picked up in the past few years. Every other budget I’d made in the past was a series of goals, goals I usually fell short of. If you’re limiting access to your finances to cash, you make it impossible to overspend. While I can charge or debit card twenty bucks I didn’t plan on, I can’t spend a twenty dollar bill I don’t have.
After a few years of working this way, I no longer limit myself to a cash only system, but I still primarily spend with cash instead of plastic. It’s made a world of difference.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:12 am
I am a Dave follower. I am a FPU teacher. I have found through countless couples, that the use of credit cards lands them back in my class in about three years. If you want to follow a path to get out of debt and STAY out of debt this is the path that is GUARANTEED to work this is the way. If you change this in any form, it is not a guaranteed method. This book and his methods work. That is what most of the population need, not tweaking, not “I have a Bigger Better Deal”.
If this is not right for you, okay - great. Just don’t throw rocks at a plan that has helped millions of people to become debt free and stay debt free.
BTW - concerning the couples who return to the class; after they swear off credit cards and payments for the second time, they don’t return. Either they have finally gotten it, or they are too ashamed to return.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:15 am
We, too, are part of Dave’s TMMO website forums, and they and the budgeting tools are extremely helpful. I have to say that I agree pretty much with everything DR says, even the no debt at all thing. I’m still on step #2, so maybe I’ll change my mind after being debt-free for several years. But I’ve been stung by credit card companies before, and I don’t like the idea of opening myself up to them again. Even for airline miles.
Ironically, I wrote about baby step #2 today…
http://www.simplemom.net/?p=13
February 26th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Perhaps if I actually read the book I would find that this was addressed, but in everything I’ve read about Ramsey’s plans, I haven’t seen it: he talks about paying down a mortgage as one of the steps, but I have never heard anything about saving up for a downpayment for those who have not yet taken the plunge into home ownership. I assume he’d be strongly against 0% down mortgages (not that anyone can really get those anymore), so that has to fit in somewhere, but where? After the emergency fund, I hope, but before retirement investing? Concurrent with retirement investing (and if so, how are the two weighted/prioritized)?
February 26th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Okay, all I know of Dave Ramsey is what I’ve read here. That said, I ended up doing the debt snowball in 93-96 because I realized that IF I paid off the lowest debt - which was a little more than my annual bonus - I could stop paying minimum balance on my credit cards.
Yes, the motivation of having fewer debts was a big deal. But also the motivation of being able to pay more on other debts. As the credit cards had lower balances AND higher interest rates than my student loans and car loan, well, those were naturally what got paid off next.
As an aside, I never went totally “cardfree” - I had an AmEx for work, and I kept my personal AmEx too. But then, a green AmEx isn’t meant to carry a balance.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:31 am
@Jen
I believe Dave’s advice for homebuying would be: save 20% for a down payment and take out a 15-year mortgage. (I don’t listen to his show yet, so I don’t know if this is exactly what he says.) In the book, he talks about people who actually save up to pay cash for their homes!
@Dave Follower
You’re absolutely right. By avoiding credit cards, you guarantee yourself that you won’t fall back into trouble again. I don’t see anyone throwing rocks at this advice, though — I think that some people, like me, are saying that wise credit use is possible, but a person has to be financially literate for this to happen.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Wise use of credit cards? Uh huh.
http://www.daveramsey.com/the_truth_about/credit_card_debt_3478.html.cfm
You play with fire you will get burned. Life happens. “I will only use this in a emergency.” “I will always pay my bill on time.” I have heard them all. It may take a couple of years, but the credit card will nail you for more money than you intend to spend.
The reason I am so adamant about credit cards, is I have seen families destroyed. I have never met anyone who “Got rich slowly” by using credit cards. Remember credit = debt. You can become wealthy faster with no debt or little access to debt. It’s a lot harder to go down to the bank and ask for a loan than to pull out a piece of plastic.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Jen : I believe that what JD said is accurate. If you’re out of debt, you can save a lot in a little bit of time. 20% down would keep you out of PMI.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I had read a lot of personal finance books and was already on the good path for years before I picked up Ramsey’s manifesto, but the writer and message still had the power to hit me hard.
Dave doesn’t fool around and has a way of not letting you lie to yourself either. I realized after his read, even though I knew a lot and had some strong habits and knowledge, I was still lying to myself — mainly because I still had revolving credit card debit. I still had ways of talking myself into making purchases I couldn’t pay off, citing ‘business need’ as a reason to overspend. No more.
It is true once you make a decision to do things different, you are challenged, as a commenter above was with a vet bill (and J.D. was with the car breakdown). Same thing happened to us last month with the vet, only try $750 instead of $400. That almost wiped out our emergency fund. And yes, I was tempted to use the credit card … but that’s the point Dave makes. Can you change your behavior when challenged? Although hard, every time you stand up to it, you win.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Thanks, J.D.! I finally read Total Money Makeover a few months ago, and I love the quote you mention: If you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else.
I try to keep this quote in mind as I struggle with friends and family who just don’t understand why I’m working two jobs, why I can’t go out for drinks/dinner as regularly as I used to, and why I can’t just drop $100 on a new pair of shoes (on credit, of course).
I truly want to get to a place where I CAN “live like no one else”, but I realize that due to my past, shall we say, indiscretions with money, that means sacrifice on the level that Dave Ramsey discusses in his book.
For those of you who may be hesitating to read this book because you think it may be overly religious—I also hesitated, but found the book to be balanced and readable. Definitely recommended!
February 26th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Dave Ramsey believer here… while I don’t agree with every single thing the guy says, overall he has some great ideas. After following his beans and rice plan we were able to pay off $11,000 in student loan debt and put about $20,000 in the bank, in less than 7 months. Our income is higher than average, about $100,000… but we are also a family of eight. We went to the cash only plan and I was able to cut most areas of our budget in half.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:15 am
I listen to the Dave Ramsey podcast available on iTunes, for advice but also to listen to the horror stories to keep me scared of slacking off on baby step #2.
For mortgages I’ve heard Dave recommend that IF you can’t save and pay in cash you should get a 15 year mortgage and the monthly payment should not exceed 25% of your monthly take-home (after tax) pay. I don’t recall about a down payment, but I would assume 20% would be safe, to avoid PMI.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:23 am
I think DR plan is fantastic! I just think once you get out of debt. The hardest part is to STAY OUT
February 26th, 2008 at 9:31 am
@Dave Follower said: Wise use of credit cards? Uh huh. You play with fire you will get burned.
I don’t think anyone here will disagree with you that credit cards are dangerous. They are. But some people are able to use fire constructively without getting burned. Also, nobody’s arguing that credit cards are a path to wealth, slowly or otherwise. What I’m saying is that credit cards can be a tool for those who have developed financial literacy and responsibility.
Here’s how I use a credit card. I don’t spend money I do not have. When I make a credit purchase, I deduct the money from my bank account from within Quicken. I pay the balance in full every month.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I listen to Dave several days a week on my way home from work and I have one concern: his constant assertion that, “the only way to financial peace is to walk daily with the prince of peace, Christ, Jesus.” (that is a direct quote, I’ve heard it enough on his program that I literally can recall it word for word) I think his financial advice (for the most part) is very sound and he definitely helps a lot of people conquer “debt addiction.” I just really, really wish that he wouldn’t insist on making it about Jesus.
I respect that his beliefs are his–and I wish he’d keep them that way. As an atheist, I also believe that people are quite capable of living in a financially sound manner without the influence of Jesus–or any religion for that matter. I am currently debt free after paying off about $6,000 in credit card debt and I continue to follow a strict plan of saving and accumulating wealth.
The only time Ramsey turns me off is when he injects religion into what is a wholly non-religious discussion.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:39 am
I got my first credit card in college over ten years ago and I have never, in those ten+ years, carried a balance. However, a few months ago I decided to go cash-only for most purchases. Why? Because I realized that using a credit card made it too easy to make unnecessary purchases. I was subconsciously spending more when I used credit. Since going cash-only, my discretionary purchases have been cut in half! That more than makes up for the piddling 1-2% rewards I’m missing out on.
As a compromise, I use the credit card to pay bills that I would be paying no matter what anyway. My cell phone bill, my internet service–they go on the card. I still get some rewards that way, but I save money by paying for groceries, clothes, books, and similar discretionary purchases in cash.
So, yes, it is possible to use credit cards “responsibly” and stay within your means, but still end up losing money in the deal.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:40 am
I have to add my praise for Ramsey and TMM. Husband and I paid off $55,500 in unsecured debt in 12 and a half months using the baby steps above.
Yes the plan is simple and most everyone already knows the advice he suggests but something in his presentation and his ability to get people focused on their debt makes a difference. I have 3 friends who are now working the TMM plan.
As for credit cards, I don’t think they are evil and husband and I just put $1500 on a 0% Home Depot credit card for one of our rental properties, but I agree with the no credit card rule. I found that my relationship with money is much different now that I pay with dollars already in my/our checking account vs. future dollars. Just today, husband called and said he was low on money and we had a 5 minute meeting about our finances. For me, I didn’t pay that much attention, and nor did my husband, to our bank accounts/present finances when I/we could just whip out the credit card and move on.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Questions re: student loan debt. All unsecured debt is paid off during Baby Step #2. And that is what we did, half of ‘our’ debt was my husband’s MBA student loan ($27,000) and it was fixed at 3 1/2%. Yes the interest rate was super low but the TMM plan, as many say, is not really about math its about emotional financial health and changing the way you live. The goal is to live a debt free life, think about that, and that is life changing.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Rob brings up a good point. Where do student loans fit into the equation? I have 40K in loans and I never know whether or not I should invest any excess money I earn or pay off my student loan.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:02 am
@JD and @Justin - I guess I wasn’t very clear. I figured Ramsey would recommend saving up at least a decent downpayment, what I can’t figure out is how that would fit in with the steps listed here. I’m just about done with his step 3 (finish emergency fund), though I’m not following his plan and have been simultaneously also putting money towards retirement (step 4) and saving for a down payment (which doesn’t seem to be a step). I don’t have kids, so step 5 isn’t an issue. Then I look at step 6, paying off the mortgage, and I’m back to wondering where the down payment savings fit in. Would he recommend doing that before directing money towards retirement? Renting until one has reached the magical 15% mark? It seems like a very big step is missing, especially since a 15 year mortgage is going to require a bigger down payment to keep the monthly payments affordable.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:17 am
I also wanted to chime in that as a Christian I’m quite proud of the fact that Dave does not choose to hide his faith when it would obviously be monetarily expedient for him to do so considering how many are turned off by his Christian views. ie
“The only time Ramsey turns me off is when he injects religion into what is a wholly non-religious discussion.”
To Dave, and myself included, obviously how we manage our money and family finances IS a ‘religious discussion’. You can’t only be Christian in some aspects of your life. I can’t speak for him but I would say this is how he evangelizes.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:22 am
The point I think you’re missing, Sean, is that while that particular belief structure works for him, it is neither necessary nor required to follow most of the strictly financial advice that he gives.
I am not saying that he has to hide his views; but please read again my quote above “the ONLY way to financial peace…” That is simply not true, and rings of serious intolerance. As an atheist, I’m excluded–but apparently so are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and any other religious group who does not “walk daily with the prince of peace.” He’s flat out saying that if you don’t agree with his religion, his financial advice is not for you. I’m sorry, but that is intolerant, religious bigotry.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:32 am
I will have to check out that book. Thanks for the info!
February 26th, 2008 at 10:35 am
What a coincidence–I just finished TMM last week (checked out from the library). I understood the steps but was disappointed that much of the book was “success stories” but no one explained HOW you get the $$ to take ANY of the steps.
I’m very deep in CC debt and frankly my take-home pay from my full-time job barely covers the minimums on my credit cards–which means I have to pay the rest of my bills using the cards, which makes the balances larger…
So where do I find suggestions and tips for getting enough $$ to even pay my bills each month? I’m not sure that a part-time job paying $6.50/hr is going to get me anywhere–what if it puts me into the next tax bracket?
February 26th, 2008 at 10:37 am
The more I read and hear about all these books and testimonials, I can’t help but think what is wrong with everyone. Why would you buy something you can’t pay for, and end up paying 2-3x the original amount b/c of credit card interest. That $100 jacket in the end costs you $185 by the time you finish paying it off. Or better yet, realize you can’t afford it and don’t buy it. No one should feel sorry for the people that shoot themselves in the foot because they buy stupid stuff when they shouldn’t. I mean come on, its not that hard. You work, see how much you make, and only spend what you have. Anyone who doesn’t have the discipline and COMMON SENSE to do that needs some serious psychological help. There’s nothing hard about it, nothing complex, its common sense. Its crazy to me that people are in debt and everyone should look at those people as such, crazy. (besides house debt, that is understandable).
February 26th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Brian, I don’t subscribe to Dave’s beliefs, either, but I know that they’re important to him and to most of his listeners. I don’t think he should censor himself when it comes to religion, just as I don’t think you should censor yourself in your comments. Instead, I think it’s important for the listener/reader to filter what Ramsey (or anyone) says, taking the bits that work and leaving behind those that don’t.
This is easier to do when reading a book — if you don’t like the philosophy being espoused, you can jump til the end of a section. On the radio, it’s not possible to fast-forward through the religious stuff. To me, that’s a price one has to pay to listen to Ramsey. For some, it’s not a price at all.
I’m about to leave for several hours. Please don’t turn this thread into a religious flamewar while I’m away.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:44 am
J.D.,
Had to spend some, but I’m at about $4K again. Dave Ramsey has changed my life too.
I disagree with him, like you, on the credit card issue. I think paying cash for your home is out of reach for the average American… which requires a mortgage… which requires credit.
Credit is a tool. One easily abused, as we know all too well.
I am looking to get a secured card, and use it to re-establish my credit. My method is to use the card to pay off a few regular expenses every month, then pay off the card. I’ve heard others suggest this method.
If followed, it seems like a good idea.
As to Ramsey’s comment on separate checking accounts… I suspect this is his traditional mindset toward marriage. One primary breadwinner, one bank account… and deviating from that represents some sort of issue… purely conjecture on my part.
I think it gets into the religious area that you don’t go into here.
But Ramsey changed my life. Back to that… I’m not rich, or even what I’d call wealthy. However, I no longer live paycheck-to-paycheck. That has done WONDERS for getting rid of stress, and how well I sleep at night. It’s also made me think a *lot* longer before I make a purchase.
It motivates me to continue down this path. Like you, I think $10-20K is a good goal to work for. I’m starting with $5K.
Cheers.
P.S. Where does a guy get a good chai latte and talk to his favorite PF blogger, these days?
February 26th, 2008 at 10:49 am
@bakednudel
I thought that the book was pretty clear about where to find the money: sell things and work more. There’s a several page section on “breaking logjams” in which Dave advocates taking a second job (even a part-time job) and selling things, especially things that are costing you money (like a car).
Also, many of the testimonials feature people who describe how they worked 80 hours a week for six months to get out of debt. This is a recurring theme: to do this takes hard work. My own experience echoes this.
@commonsense
Yes, smart money management is common sense. But many people were raised in families without this common sense. They were raised poor. They’re bombarded by ads. I’m not making excuses for anyone — it does, ultimately, come down to personal responsibility — I’m just trying to explain why people might not make smart choices.
I’m a smart guy, yet I did dumb things with money for twenty years. Smart money management is more about mind than it is about math. I can do the math. What I couldn’t do was control my emotions. You’re right — it’s psychological. But that doesn’t make it any less of a problem.
That’s why I’m glad to have read Dave. He understands that it’s a mental thing, and he’s not afraid to help people get turned around.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Your response just makes me want to beat my head on a desk.
Of course as a person of faith I believe my faith is the ONLY way to peace in ALL aspects of my life. And that if what I believe I know to be true than WHY would I ever tell someone to look elsewhere? And I am sure Muslims, Buddhist et al feel the same way. Sorry buddy but atheism IS a religion and you are no less an INTOLERANT BIGOT than I.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Just wanted to say I’ve read his book (borrowed from the library even) and I’ve just finished step one of a modified version of his plan.
I’ve saved up $2,000 for emergencies (my car is old and I wasn’t sure $1k would cover it if it broke down), and am into Step Two of attacking my debt, but I changed the rules here. Instead of a snowball I’m going by how much I want to get rid of certain balances. The first up is my credit card. It’s certainly not the smallest (or biggest) debt I have, but it’s been a monkey on my back for so long I’ll feel much better getting rid of it than all of the smaller debts combined, so I’m going after it first.
I say this just to give another perspective of the psychological aspect of Dave’s plan. A debt snowball is a great way for the psychological win, but so is getting rid of the debts that harass you the most. It’s all about what gives you the biggest mental/emotional boost to keep going.
I’d also just like to say before I started reading GRS I’d thought I was doing well on my financial plan, but it turns out ignorance is bliss. I’m far and away better at personal finance and wealth building since coming here. So thanks JD! Keep up the good work!
February 26th, 2008 at 10:56 am
if you really want to learn some useful stuff, read the book “spiritual warfare” by jed mckenna.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:56 am
As per JD’s kind request, and my own desire to not get into a religious flame war; especially given my own feelings that discussion of religion has absolutely nothing to do with finances, I will say this:
1) I never referred to you as an intolerant bigot, please do not refer to me that way. You are the one who has become frustrated to the point of wanting to beat your head on the desk despite my reasonable tone and respectful discourse.
2) Atheism is in no way a religion, despite what your church may have you believe.
I agree with many of Dave’s financial principles–I do not agree that it is required for one to share his religious beliefs to benefit from them and I personally feel that it’s unfortunate that he chooses to alienate certain people simply because he cannot recognize that fact.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Thanks, I will look again in the “logjams” section.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I’d like to hear more about how a Credit Card is a “valuable tool”? If you are following a plan like Ramsey’s, you would have no debts and 10-30K in the bank for emergencies, and you would have greatly increased cash flow. Under this scenario, how is borrowing or floating a purchase on a Credit Card somehow better or smarter than just paying cash (or using a debit card)?
I’ve been doing a lot of reading lately, the best of which recently was “Maxed Out”, and I have come to whole heartedly believe that the entire Credit industry is corrupt and immoral. Even if you are a “responsible debtor” and pay off your card(s) every month, you are still supporting the Credit Card companies - they still get their 3% from the vendors. I’m sure they make money from the banks to support the Debit Card system, but the banks are part of the problem, so I don’t care if they send moeny to each other.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:01 am
@ joel,
of course all the credit industry is corrupt, but society as a whole is corrupt, and as a result the world is corrupt in one way or another. its what you are living in, its what everyone is living in.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:02 am
@Joel,
It can be a valuable tool for times when you need to make a large purchase–such as a new home theater system or appliance. Carrying large sums of cash is not advisable and many banks place daily spending limits on debit cards.
Responsible credit card use also builds credit. One of the areas that DR and I disagree on is that of the car payment. I feel that a car is a large enough purchase to warrant *some* debt–but keep it within reason (the number of times people call his show with $35k income and a $22k car note astounds me, honestly). While DR proclaims that the FICO score is the “I Love Debt” score (and in many ways, it is) there’s no denying that having a good FICO score can make many things (like selection of mortgage lenders) significantly easier.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:17 am
many people make money off of other people’s stupidity. that’s why credit companies are so profitable. they don’t make money off the people who have commonsense and pay their balance in full each month. they make their money off people who pay minimums and who don’t realize the money they are wasting by paying interest.
the only reason a credit score is imoprtant is when you want to make a large purchase (usually only a home i would hope). other than that it’s a stupid made up number that society wrongly values.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:19 am
credit cards can indeed be a valuable tool. find one that pays you back, use it for things you need (not want), pay it all off before you’re charged interest, collect the check at the end of the year
rocketed my credit score up to over 800, too. you can bet i will have no trouble financing a home at a good rate when the time comes.
debt for many of us is inevitable. student expenses, home purchases, even cars are not things you can pay cash up front if you’re working your way up from nothing. there is ok debt to have, and there is debt you pay off asap if you have to take it out in the first place. knowing the difference is what puts you ahead.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:22 am
I can attest to the “join the military to get out of debt.” I did just that but I really think I lucked out. I went when there was a draw down - and no war. I also had a husband on the outside that called the military while I was in boot camp because they failed to fill out my college repayment forms correctly and he threatened them. I got out 2.5 years later and had only $2800 worth of college loans left. It really helped me not worry about those loans ($15,000 paid by the army).
But you have to be careful in the military. There is a huge mindset to spend money because there isn’t much else to do. Almost all buy a new car. I stored mine in my mother’s garage and rode a bike on base. I also didn’t have an apartment. I saved money like nobody’s business. Most, however, don’t.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:24 am
A responsible person who pays off their balance without fail thus not paying interest can actually make a decent bonus by using a reward-model credit card. Over a period after I bought my house, I spent around $8,000 on furniture, appliances, etc. I paid zero interest because I paid the balance immediately and ended up with a $100 Visa gift card to use.
I’m not saying this plan is for everyone. In fact, if you’re the person who needs / has used DR’s plans in the past because you’ve had trouble with credit cards, I wouldn’t recommend it. But, for those out there who are able to be responsible with it, that “free” $100 can be very nice!
February 26th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Re student loans:
After listening to hours of DR on his radio program and struggling with this question, this is what I think his full approach is:
– if they are relatively small, just lump them into Baby Step 2. I’ll leave you to decide how small is small enough, DR doesn’t really. My own thoughts would be if the student loan amount doesn’t exceed your full emergency fund and has a low interest rate.
– if they are the size of a small mortgage (for example, my lovely $190K in student loans), then you would proceed as follows:
–Complete Baby step 2 for all other debts
–Then complete your full emergency fund, etc. to the point where you would pay off the mortgage early
–Then, BEFORE paying off the mortgage early, snowball the student loan
–Then, pay off your mortgage early
February 26th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I don’t find DR’s evangelical Christian comments to be oppressive when I listen to him on iTunes. That’s his audience. He’s right on when it comes to taking responsibility and doing what it takes to get out of trouble. I’m well-versed at stealing what makes sense to me and ignoring the rest.
As for the flap about credit cards — they are only stupid if you use them as revolving credit.
Otherwise, they’re simply free convenience tools:
– I can buy stuff for cheaper over the internet because I have a credit card.
– Travel plans are a breeze with a cc.
– DH and I can take advantage of a couple weeks of float to buy things for the rental property that we will pay for with the next month’s rent.
– We get instant info downloaded to our financial software about where and how the money was spent.
– We get a few $100s back as a cash rebate.
We haven’t carried a credit card balance in many years. That would be a sign of financial distress for us, same as reducing the rate we’re saving for our retirements would be. I won’t say it won’t happen, but it would be a canary in the coal mine!
I agree with DR, that if you have a problem dealing with a credit card, don’t use one (and if you’ve had credit problems from spending too much on consumer goods, you might have a problem. Don’t kid yourself.)
February 26th, 2008 at 11:29 am
I am out of CC debt but have a mortgage and a small car payment. I often have to pay for airfare, hotel, or creative materials for work, which I expense and am reimbursed for (direct deposit) within two weeks. I use a miles CC for those purchases, and pay off the balance when the reimbursement comes through. Some of these purchases ($2K airfare for overseas trip) could not be covered by my debit card. Of course I could refuse to cover these and my company would pay directly, but the reimbursements are fast so I’d rather get the miles!
I did a kitchen remodel recently, and used the CC in a similar way. I had saved the money for the remodel in a money market fund. When I made purchases (e.g. appliances, flooring), I used my miles CC, then paid it off out of the money market fund.
Over the past two years I have racked up enough miles for a RT ticket to Mexico this year, with plenty left over to book a domestic RT ticket to see my family. The card also means I get a $50 companion coupon for flights, which I’m using next month. I love to travel, and all of my family members live elsewhere, so these miles and perks make a difference for me.
So far this system is working well. But I spent years paying off credit cards and student loans that I had been irresponsible with; then I had to wait seven years for my credit score to reflect my wake-up call and subsequent efforts. I have excellent credit now, but I know credit cards can be dangerous. I treat them accordingly.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:33 am
@Brian - When I say “cash”, I mean anything that funciotns like cash - Why not write a check? If you can’t write a check, and you can’t use a debit card, and you choose not to carry cash, then get the price and get a cashiers check or a money order. The convenience of credit is simply not worth the risk of credit.
Same goes for the car thing - why would you want to finance a depreciating asset when you can pay cash? And if you are trying to live a no-debt lifestyle, then a FICO score is meaningless.
As for a home, if you have a sizable down payment, a solid income, and no other debts, a bank will happily sell you a mortgage.
@commonsense - I think you agree with me on the FICO score thing, but we disagree on the CC companies. They make money even if you pay off your balance every month - they just don’t make it from you. Vendors typically pay 3% for the right to accept credit cards. And the banks pay for the right to put the VISA/MasterCard logo on their plastic.
Also, while the whole system may be corrupt, I can still make individual choices that limit my involvement.
@leigh - This is the fallacy that many smart and responsible people fall prey to: they think they can beat the Credit Card companies at their own game. But the old axiom applies: never bet against the house.
And debt is NOT inevitable! That is exactly what THEY want you to believe! They have so thoroughly indoctrinated us to this idea that we just fork money over to them for our entire lives, justifying all by saying “that’s just how it is”.
When you are “working your way up from nothing” is exactly when you should NOT become indebted! It is the worst possible time to owe money to other people. And yes, you CAN buy a car with cash (it just won’t be the fancy new SUV you want).
I’m sorry, I have not read anything to convince me that any debt is “good”.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:48 am
@Joel,
You are clearly a hard-line supporter of Ramsey’s philosophy; and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. If your primary goal is to live a completely debt free lifestyle, then I wish you luck in your endeavor–it’s an admirable goal to be sure! And you are certainly welcome to make your own choices when it comes to your involvement in what you believe is a corrupt industry.
The “risk” of credit is not the risk of credit, it’s the risk that you won’t pay the bill as you agreed with yourself that you would. The usage of credit cards that I’ve described is less “debt” than it is a short-term deferral of payment. I consider myself lucky that I have the discipline to use a credit card, redeem my rewards points, and not pay a single cent in interest on that card. I realize that not everyone has that level of discipline, which is why I stated that it’s not a plan for everyone.
Cara’s situation is also a perfectly reasonable use of debt.
Debt is not a “bad” thing–people’s inability to handle debt responsibly is a bad thing.
You asked the question, so please try to be respectful in your responses to our answers. Not all of us have the goal to live a lifestyle in which we avoid debt in all its possible forms.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:50 am
@Brian -
But it is not “free”! You opened yourself up to at least $8,000 of risk by charging the stuff you bought. You state yourself this only works if you keep it paid off, but what if you had a serious emergency that ate up all your reserves? You’d be $8K in debt. That possibility just doesn’t seem worth earning $100.
@db -
I think DR would say the student loan always belong in Baby Step 2. What you are referring to is how he treats 2nd Mortgages.
@TosaJen -
Those are all valid points, and except for the rebate, they can all be accomplished with a Debit Card.
Obviously, this is a passionate issue. We Americans just hate the idea of not having a Credit Card. Is it possible that some of us (like Cara above) can occasionally not get burnt? Apparently so - but the society as a whole is suffering, and likely to suffer for a long time to come because of these attitudes we have.
Remember that DR is dealing with hundreds and thousands of people a year. He doesn’t preach a “system” other than get out of debt and stay that way, and I for one am going to follow.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:55 am
@brian -
I don’t mean to sound disrespectful, I am just passionate. I feel that we have been sold by a bunch of Snake-oil salesmen to the point of endangering our entire society. I will try to tone it down a notch.
You are absolutely right that discipline and personal responsibility are the keys, and I applaud you and the other like you for it. I just hope that you don’t some day find yourselves on the losing end of the deal.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
@Joel,
Ah ha! But you see, if you’ve completed baby step 3, you have at least 3-6 months of funds set aside in an emergency fund for just such a case. The $8,000 for new furniture didn’t come out of this emergency fund–because as DR himself points out, this money is only for emergency use.
Let’s for sake of argument say one has a $10,000 emergency fund, $10,000 in personal savings, and makes $8,000 in purchases.
In scenario A, the $8,000 gets put on a credit card and is paid immediately from the personal savings. The personal savings now has a balance of $2,000, and a $100 reward has been paid the spender.
In scenario B, the $8,000 is put on cashier’s check (since almost no one on earth would accept a personal check for this amount and most debit cards will not allow expenditures this high). The personal savings now has a balance of $2,000 minus an additional $8 or so for a cashier’s check.
Now, this same person has a $6,000 emergency. That $6,000 comes out of their emergency fund. In either scenario above, this is still the case.
This is this discipline I’m talking about–recognizing that to use a credit card intelligently doesn’t mean making payments, it means the money is already spent either way. For me, making $8,000 in purchases was had the same exact affect on my accounts as it would have had I used a cashier’s check because the money put on the credit card was already spent–and already set aside from my account to pay the credit card bill to avoid any interest. I earned $100 for my discipline. Does everyone have it? No. Is it easy to know if you do have it? Yes. If you don’t have it–don’t do what I’m talking about here.
But, as with most things, “what might not work for some works for others.”
February 26th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
@Brian -
I’ll concede that your math puts you to the good by $108 (out of $20,000). But I can’t let go of the feeling that it is a shell game that most people would ultimately not win.
And you are wise to say this is not for everyone. I think that most people who try this sort of thing, in the long run, do not have the discipline to succeed. It sounds like you do, but I feel you are greatly in the minority.
Peace.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
@Joel,
We are definitely in agreement that I’m in the minority; but I believe this kind of discipline is a mindset that anyone can achieve if they get passionate about it.
What helps me is that I generally don’t even wait for my statement to arrive. Every day, I see if any of my purchases (which I log) have cleared my card and if they have, I immediately use online banking to transfer money from my account to the card to reduce the balance to $0.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
@Joel:
on the rewards card, it’s a fairly safe game to play. *if and only if* you purchase things you have the means to pay for at the end of the month.
“When you are “working your way up from nothing” is exactly when you should NOT become indebted! It is the worst possible time to owe money to other people.”
disagree. my education is worth several hundred thousand dollars. i have had much of it dismissed due to fellowships and such, but still could not come up with $16,000 to pay out of pocket while in school. it sucks to have student loans, but it was that or pass up the six-figures of free tuition and not go to college. same with my husband, though to a much cheaper extent. i’d say that was a decent trade off for future income and job security. if you’re advocating not going to school unless you can pay out of pocket, you aren’t going to garner much of an audience.
“And yes, you CAN buy a car with cash (it just won’t be the fancy new SUV you want).”
we have only taken out a loan on one car of the several we have owned. in fact, most of our cars were purchased for under $1000. but many good cars are in the $5-10k range. and if you’re in sudden need of a car, i do not believe the average person has that laying around.
“I’m sorry, I have not read anything to convince me that any debt is “good”.”
never said debt was good. i said it can sometimes be ok, as in, acceptable for the circumstances.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Dave Follower (#35) Wise use of credit cards? Uh huh. You play with fire you will get burned. - Cooking with gas is using fire. Electrical stoves are also dangerous. Knives can be deadly too; I use knives most days to chop food. Most people can learn safer ways to use knives and fire in the kitchen. (Yes, some people only eat raw food. I’m not one of them.)
The problem is not that credit (credit cards, mortgages, car loans, etc) can be dangerous. Most things are dangerous when misused. The problem is that we do not TEACH how to use credit wisely. If American culture woke up about what is and is not smart uses of credit, payday lenders would go out of business due to acute customer lack.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Anne (#44) I realized that using a credit card made it too easy to make unnecessary purchases. Good for you on noticing that! I find cash makes me spend more…frustrating, since I want to stop using the debit card. (Reducing debit charges makes me more likely to balance my checkbook. Also there is much less protection from fraud / mistakes than my charge card.)
Jen (#48) Could it be that Dave Ramsey assumes people have mortgages to start with, and that’s part of why they’re “stuck” in debt? I mean, a big part of me getting out of debt was a) moving to a cheaper apartment and b) selling the furniture I didn’t need. It’s harder to sell a house than to give notice at an apartment.
All that said, yeah, a down payment plan is good to have.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I was going to say something good, but I see that it will be overlooked in all the other amazing comments here.
Anyway, from what I can tell Dave Ramsey’s plan is an excellent way of getting out of debt, I’d say that it’s an almost foolproof method of doing so. It’s probably also the most successful way for most people.
It’s not the only way of getting out of debt though, and it’s certainly not the only good way of managing money, that depends a lot on the individual.
Finally, the Dave Ramsey thing is simple. Simple, and easy, are not the same thing. Best of luck everyone.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
@Joel — I’m far more comfortable handing out my credit card #, where no one is touching my actual money, than my debit card #, which is directly linked to real money. It’s much easier to fix the mischief of identity theft done via credit card than done via debit card, where we lose a bunch of our cashflow, even if only for a few days. I consider debit cards rather risky, and we rarely use them. Your experiences may be different.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I’m surprised that everyone is arguing about the evilness or lack thereof of credit cards, but not one commenter has disagreed with Dave’s advice to ignore your 401(k) until you are halfway through the baby steps. Credit card reward points/rebates are a trivial optimization compared to the lost opportunities when you don’t invest in your 401(k). Neither an employer match nor the yearly contribution limits can be regained when you finally turn your attention to them.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Joel (#62) I think I can speak to this, as I have a Ramsey-style emergency fund. I also have a credit card and charge card.
I also realize that my reasons for having them are only my reasons, and that others may value these things differently than I. (AKA what I consider a feature, you might consider a bug, and vice versa.)
I regard my charge card (green AmEx) and credit card (credit union Visa) as useful tools because:
Compared to a debit card:
1) I have time to find billing mistakes, and correct them with a phone call or file a formal dispute, without mistakes affecting my bank account.
2) If I formally dispute a purchase, I don’t have to pay until it’s figured out.
3) If a hotel or car rental puts a “hold” on the card, it doesn’t freeze part of my checking account.
4) If the card is stolen, fraudulent charges don’t affect my bank account. No checks bouncing while I’m figuring things out. And by law, the amount of charges I’m responsible for are a stolen charge or credit card is limited.
5) When charging things for work ($750 conference registration, say) I often get the reimbursement from the boss before my bill arrives.
6) Emotional: I like having something between creditors and my bank account. This is completely a “safe feeling” for me.
Compared to cash:
1) I spend less with with the card. Cash has no inherent records. The charge card details every dime in glorious detail (did I mention detail?)
2) Stolen cash is usually gone. Stolen card the damages are limited.
3) Can do mail order without COD, which is a hassle (must arrange to be home on proper day for mail delivery or get to the post office when it’s open).
4) Can make secured hotel/plane/etc reservations and purchases.
Compared to checks:
1) If a purchase is defective and the seller isn’t taking it back, I can file a formal dispute and not have to pay until it’s resolved. Not that it’s always in my favor, but it’s an option not open to those who pay by check.
2) Carrying a checkbook means carrying blank checks. No way do I carry a checkbook!
3) Can do internet mail order.
4) Can make secured hotel/plane/etc reservations and purchases.
Compared to my emergency fund, since that was mentioned:
1) The emergency fund is shared among a Vanguard bond fund with check writing privileges and a Vanguard money-market fund with check writing privileges. While these are convenient and fast, I don’t carry the checkbooks! They are in the lockbox at the bank.
Since I /do/ carry the charge card, it’s often used to pay for car repairs, Urgent Care visits, etc.
Finally, for the curious:
I prefer the charge card to the credit card because:
1) Can’t carry a balance (feature). The idea of not paying the entire bill in full each month does not even enter my head. This helps keep me on budget.
2) Annual fee. I feel a fee is a more honest way to recoup the costs involved in administering the card than to advertise FREE, NO FEE CARD with the interest rate in little, little tiny tiny print. This, of course, is entirely my opinion, and a no-fee reward-program credit card can be a net gain if used correctly.
I also carry a credit card because:
Accepted in more places.
1) From the same credit union we use for most banking.
2) No fee if I pay it off every month, so it doesn’t cost me to have it. Haven’t paid interest yet, in part because we rarely use it.
And my apologies if this is WAY more than you asked for!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
@Brian- In scenario B, the $8,000 is put on cashier’s check (since almost no one on earth would accept a personal check for this amount and most debit cards will not allow expenditures this high
I have to agree w/Brian
When you are living a cash only lifestyle, how does one get expensive furniture or pay for vacations when a debit card usually have a low limit?
February 26th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
@JenK,
Thanks for that great write-up! I considered getting an AmEx green card; but I realized that the $95 annual fee was far more interest than I would ever pay so long as I’m diligent. As to the honesty factor–sure, it’s more honest; but the card companies are making 1.5-3% on all your purchases anyway, so if you do a decent amount of business with them, you’re already contributing to their business.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
@TosaJen (#83) - you managed to sum up in 6-7 lines what took me over 60. Will you marry me?
February 26th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
@JenK: Jen & Jen would just be tooooo confusing.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Re: Debt Snowball-
If you pay off your high interest debts first but track all your debts VERY carefully as you repay them, you WILL see results in your overall debt level even if you are not knocking individual accounts off the list.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Question about Baby Step #2, which I’m currently on . . . would that include a loan against my own 401(k)? I took one out in an emergency a little over a year ago, and I have about $700 left to pay off, which is being deducted from my paychecks at about $40 per pay period.
I have no other debt at this point (yay!), and normally I’d say that paying off this last one would be my current financial priority, EXCEPT that it’s being steadily taken care of without my having to think about it, AND it’s such a relatively small amount, AND the interest on the loan goes straight back into my own 401(k), so it’s not like I’m losing money.
So my thought is that it’s better for me to start increasing my emergency fund (per Baby Step #3) now, while this last loan is gradually taking care of itself . . . agree or disagree? (Note: I have good financial habits at this point and my overall spending is well in control.) Thanks!
February 26th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
@Brian (#86) - I’m glad you appreciated it
I do value the “pay off every month” above the honesty factor myself.
Funny story: Last time we bought a car (with cash we had dutifully saved up) I asked if we could just buy the car using AmEx to get the points. The dealership refused to pay the card fee on that big a purchase, and I really can’t blame them.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
@Rob and @Kevin,
I don’t think anyone else responded about student loans, and I don’t have time to read all the comments anyway.
Student loans are definitely part of the Debt Snowball, even huge loans like those incurred by doctors and lawyers. The interest rate is irrelevant. You’re still making payments, possibly large payments, to pay off some debt, and by paying that off completely, you free up a lot of money. Again the key here is changing behaviour and developing good personal finance habits.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
@Jen: Finish the emergency fund. After that’s finished, simultaneously start investing at least up to the 15% level of take-home pay and saving for your down-payment. In this scenario, you are just replacing the “pay off your mortgage” step with “save for down payment” (since you don’t have a mortgage).
Make sense?
Actually, my wife and I plan to do the same thing. Though we have a mortgage currently, we are not in the house we ultimately want to be in, so we will not put that money on the mortgage for this house. Rather, we will save (in a high-yield MMA or the like) to put a down payment on a new home that will better suit our needs.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Religion - On Ramsey’s preachy style. I’m not religious, I’d describe myself as agnostic but enjoy the philosophy of Taoism, and I simply ignored Ramsey’s preaching when I was reading TMM. When I listen to him on the radio or catch his Fox TV program I switch to something else if I find the level of preaching too high for me. I agree with others that stated that Ramsey’s individual morality/spirituality/philosophy (whatever you want to call it) is the basis of his teaching. As a result he can’t, and I agree, shouldn’t hide his spirituality. I also agree with others that the TMM baby steps could easily be thought/discussed/implemented without reference to religion.
TMM, especially Baby Step #2 - the debt snowball, really worked for us because we got so focused on our debt. Spending a year and 2 weeks focused on paying off our debt, not incurring new debt, budgeting, etc. (all part of #2) changed the way we live and I think that is the key to the TMM. Now we didn’t follow the plan exactly as we continued to contribute to our 401k plans and we also continued to put money into our emergency fund (baby step #3). But, we would have reduced our 401k and e/r fund contributions if we could not get our debt ($55.500) paid off in a year.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
About the student loans and first-time home buying: My husband and I recently met with a budget coach who was a Dave Ramsey certified counselor (or however you say it). We are currently renting and our only debt is $35k in low interest student loans (we’re in our mid-20s). Our counselor recommended that we pay off our student loans (step #2 - we already have the $1000 emergency fund), then move on to the 3-6 months of expenses, then save for retirement, then save for our children’s education, THEN save the 20% down payment for our house.
We like Dave Ramsey, but we don’t think this plan works for us completely. We don’t want to overextend ourselves on a house, but we do think it’s more important than saving for our kids’ college. We also would like to save for a house WHILE paying off our student loans. Every year, our rent goes up, and we will have less to devote to our loan payments. As kids come into the picture, we have concerns about raising them in an apartment complex. We are concentrating on our loans right now, but in a few years we’ll reevaluate and probably jump into the home ownership stage of life before we get up to 15% on retirement (we’re at 4% right now), kids’ college, or finishing paying off our student loans. We’ll see.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Just FYI, here’s a short little video explaining Dave’s method of buying cars only with cash up front.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
@JenK #85
I ditto just about everything you said, especially “compared to debit card/cash/checks.” I keep a credit card. It did take me a while to learn to use it ‘responsibly’. I only use it for certain things such as when I had to rent a car or if I’m buying something online. Like Jen, I’m particular about who I give access to my money to.
I do follow the Ramsey plan…to a point. He doesn’t place much value on credit score because of his belief in no debt and paying cash for everything. Until I get to the place where my emergency fund is fully funded and I have developed wealth, I will be sure to maintain my high credit score. I Got out of debt in December and my car died in January. I don’t like car shopping and want to do it as infrequently as I have to. Dave’s plan would suggest getting a beat up car that cost a few thousand that you can pay cash for until you can trade up. Nothing wrong with that plan. It’s just not what I want to do. My plan: I bought a car that I will pay for by the end of the year that I feel will last me for the next 10 years (the lenght of time I kept my other car). I was able to get a great interest rate on my loan and I plan to do what I did to help pay off my other debt…wait for one of those credit cards to send me one of their “transfer your balances and get 0% interest for one year”. Yes, thanks to Discover and Chase, for the last 3 years I’ve been able to give myself 0% interest loans. Since I was not paying any interest on the loans, I also slowly added to my emergency fund.
Admittedly, I could not have done that several years ago without abusing it. My mindset, understanding, and goals are different now so I’m not worried about my credit card use.
Dave Ramsey, religious references and all, is one of the top financial gurus I do read, listen to and follow.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
i liked Ramsey’s book as well as his approach to eradicating debt, however, I could have done without the heavy religious references.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I looked up religion on some online dictionaries and they say that it is basically a set of beliefs. Pretty much everything that Dave Ramsey says on his program are his beliefs from finances to the Bible. It’s his program and has his name on it.
A few quick notes from reading TMMO and listening to Dave Ramsey for about a year and a half:
Joint checking account: These are necessary to put both people on the same page. You can’t create real goals and coordinate financial plans without clear, clean information. Also, if you are married, most states are community property states and your separate checking accounts really don’t separate your assets anyway. Why not just stay together on the checking account?
Mortgages: I wish I had taken Dave’s advice on my mortgage and bought a house where the payment was 25% of take home on a 15 year mortgage. I want to pay off my 30 year mortgage in a lot fewer years than 30 (hopefully 12), but it is difficult with the amount of house we have.
Student Loans: On Friday, my wife and I will pay off the rest of our student loans. While you may think that student loans are good debt because they increase your earnings, if you think of them as bad debt, you may choose to go to the $3,000 a year tuition school instead of the $18,000 a year school (1994-1997, so today’s prices would be higher) for a total of over $80,000 combined. While either way there would have been some living expenses to deal with as well, we could have had our school loans paid off in 1999 instead of 2008 if we had been thinking of school loans as being as bad as they ended up being for us.
Since getting on the TMMO plan, we have paid off over $100,000 in about two years. In the previous eleven years, we paid off about $35,000. This will be the first time in our lives that we will be living with no debt (outside of our mortgage) and it will be truly awesome.