Casting stones: When is it okay to judge?
I’ve been stewing over something for the past few days, and I’m finally ready to write about it.
I’m not a fan of judging others and their actions. Like Atticus Finch, I believe you never really know a person until you stand in their shoes and walk around in them. But I’m human. Like everyone, there are times I can’t help passing judgment. And although I know that judging others isn’t productive, sometimes I’m at a loss to do anything else.
Rock Bottom
I had dinner with my buddy Michael last week. Michael’s moving back to Portland after several years away, and his financial life is a mess. He’s had a rough couple of years:
- He lost his home to foreclosure.
- He lost his job.
- His wife is out of work, too.
- And, last month, Michael filed for bankruptcy.
Not all of Michael’s problems are due to the economy. He’s brought plenty of woe upon himself due to a typical consumer lifestyle. He knows that.
Over a meal of southern-style fried chicken — my treat — we talked a lot about his financial situation. We’ve chatted some in the past, but I never feel like what I say makes much of an impact. I don’t want to be too pushy, for one thing, but I also get the impression that Michael isn’t ready to hear the message. Now, however, that may be changing. He has a haunting, hunted look about him.
Michael told me about the mistakes he’s made and the lessons he’s learned. He also confessed that he borrowed money from a family member, but had never repaid the loan. “It tears me up inside,” he said. “I feel so guilty.” Once he gets everything worked out, his goal is to pay that money back as soon as possible.
Michael explained how he’s hoping to set up a budget; he wants to set money aside for things before buying them. “Plus, I want to pay myself first,” he told me. “I’ve been reading about saving. I want to open a savings account and set aside $400 per month. My wife thinks we should use the money for other stuff, but I really think we should save.”
Old Habits
Because Michael is a good friend, I want to help him and his family. (Michael and his wife have two kids.) I’ve been watching for cheap rentals in the Portland area, and even found a house where he could stay for $500 a month (which is incredibly cheap). There are some drawbacks to the place, and I wouldn’t suggest that he and his family stay there long term, but it’d be an awesome temporary home be while they get back on their feet.
“Thanks for finding that place,” Michael told me as he took a bite of mashed potatoes and gravy. “But we’ve decided to rent someplace else. We found a place in Rock Creek for $1300 a month.”
“Wow,” I said. “That seems like a lot.”
“Not really,” he said. “That’s pretty good for similar places in Portland. Plus, it gives us space for our two dogs.”
I sighed inside. Sure, that may be a good price compared to similar houses, but I know there are tons of places to live in Portland for less than $1300 a month — if Michael and his wife are willing to make some sacrifices. I wanted to pursue this line of questioning — What about getting rid of the dogs? Why not look at the $500/month place I found? — but I let it go. You can only argue with your friends so much, right? We moved on to other topics.
Michael mentioned that although his wife is still looking for work, he’s managed to find a job. (He was vague about what the work entailed and how much it paid.) He even has transportation. “I’m borrowing an old beater until I have a chance to buy a new car,” he told me. Michael’s last vehicle belonged to his employer, so he came to town not only homeless and jobless, but carless as well.
“You might want to wait to buy a new car until you’re more sure of your situation,” I said. “There’s nothing wrong with driving an old beater. Heck, where you’ll be living, you could ride the light rail into work.”
“I hadn’t thought of that,” Michael said. And from the way he said it, I could tell he still wasn’t thinking of it. In his mind, he needs a car — and a new one, too.
Further to Fall
Before we parted ways, Michael gave me his new cell phone number. “What happened to your old phone?” I asked.
“It was the company’s. I had to give it back,” he said.
“That makes sense,” I said. “What did you get instead? Did you go with a prepaid phone? That’s a great way to save money.”
Michael evaded the question, but when we stood up to leave, I noticed the phone hanging from his belt clip: a brand-new iPhone. Later I learned from a mutual friend that Michael didn’t just buy a new iPhone for himself, but he bought one for his wife and for his 11-year-old son as well. (And he bought his 9-year-old son an iPod Touch so he wouldn’t feel left out.)
This is the part of the story where you now have to imagine a little black squiggle hanging over my head, like in the comic strips. This is the point at which I go from being sympathetic for my friend to judging him — and not favorably.
The Mote in My Eye
But as I began to silently judge Michael’s choices, I thought of my recent trip to Alaska. I spent ten days on the boat with my neighbor, the “real millionaire next door“, and in those ten days I often felt like I was being judged.
- Before the trip, I bought a $120 backpack at REI. My goal is to use this for much of my travel during the coming years. It fits in an overhead compartment, and is a great way to limit what I carry. John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
- On the first day, Mac and I tore a paper towel in half, and we each used our half as a napkin for several days. Eventually my napkin became grimy and gross, so I went to tear off another half a paper towel. When John saw me, he scolded me and told me I ought to use a cloth towel instead.
- Near the end of the trip, I threw a molding orange overboard. “I wish you hadn’t done that,” John said. “I could have cut out the bad part and eaten the rest.”
- On the last day, I went to the bookstore in Sitka and bought a copy of Bruce Chatwin’s In Patagonia, which I’ve been wanting to read for a long time. (After our trip to France and Italy this year, Kris and I hope to save for a trip to Argentina and Chile in 2012 or 2013.) When John saw I’d bought a new book, he shook his head. “I’ve got a lot of perfectly good books here on board,” he said, indicating his library of old paperbacks.
Throughout the trip, I felt like I was under pressure to, well, be more frugal, to make the same choices John would make. And you know what? That pressure sucked. It felt awful. I didn’t like the feeling of being judged, especially by somebody I look up to.
To Judge, or Not to Judge?
So, I’m torn. As much as I hate to judge others, sometimes I can’t help it — and now I’m judging Michael. He says he wants to change, he says he’s learned his lesson from his bankruptcy, but his actions say otherwise.
He has no savings, no car, no home. His wife is out of work, and he’s only just started a new job himself. Yet he’s decided to rent a $1300 house, is looking to buy a new car, and has signed up for at least $180/month in cell phones. (I’m ignoring the start-up costs of the phones.) These are just the things I know about. Michael is talking the talk, but he’s not walking the walk. (I’m reminded of a previous conversation with another friend.)
I know how tough it can be to change your behavior. I’ve been there before. I used to talk about changing, too, without making any actual change. I’m sure my friends just shook their heads at me. (In fact, I know that some of my friends used to wonder at my foolish choices — they’ve told me so.)
I hope Michael turns things around, but I can’t help but judge his actions right now. And I don’t know how to help him.
Footnote: During dinner, Michael told me that he’s been reading personal finance books. “Like which ones?” I asked. “Rich Dad, Poor Dad,” he said. That should have been a big clue that things weren’t right yet. Rich Dad, Poor Dad has some interesting entrepreneurship lessons in it, but it’s a terrible, terrible book to base your financial philosophy around. If I could remove only one book from the hands of people just learning to manage money, that would be the one.
Footnote #2: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
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There are 239 comments to "Casting stones: When is it okay to judge?".
Gosh, that’s a tough one.
I see your situation and your friend’s situation as two entirely different things. Perhaps your neighbor’s comments would be justified if you were in financial trouble or were being irresponsible, but the fact of the matter is that you’re not.
So, I’d be inclined to say something to your friend but not to you.
In either situation, though, I think care needs to be taken when it comes to HOW something is said. From what you’ve said, it sounds like your neighbor offered his comments in a judgemental way that was lacking in humility. It didn’t sound like it came from a heart that wanted to help you, but instead from a heart that wanted to criticize you.
This is a universal issue.
There are always people doing ‘better’ than us at saving, scrimping, investing and making money. There are always people doing worse. It’s so easy to judge and be judged.
One thing I didn’t see was your friend asking for help – which makes me think he’s still not ready. But he may not be ready until he truly hits rock bottom. (funny – I thought the court took away credit cards and such when people filed bankruptcy, hmmm). If you haven’t already gone there, I suppose you could identify 2 or 3 BIG picture things you’d be willing to help him with (e.g., help him sit down and figure out a budget or help him define his values and how they should govern his financial decisions. or helping him throw away his book ;)) Then, rather than evaluating the individual items of his expenses, you could simply put the offer of big picture assistance out there and give him the opportunity to accept – or not. You could also invite him to spend a little time with you to observe how you and Kris live and how you make financial choices through the day.
Of course, sometimes the only teacher is experience. It’s tough to see our friends (and relatives!) make the mistakes we’ve made, but sometimes that’s the only way they’ll figure things out.
Sounds like your neighbor is a cheapo. I’d rather be debt-free, happy, and able spend consciously than to be a millionaire living like a pauper.
I don’t think you should feel too guilty for “judging” your friend. I would have told him straight-up (but not in an insulting or condescending way) how I felt about his bad financial habits and what he could do to change. He might not take your advice but at least you would have told him exactly how you felt.
Your neighbor apparently lives a life of extreme frugality. He already has millions saved- I don’t see the harm in spending some of your hard earned money. Like the saying goes, “You can’t take it with you” – so you better enjoy some of it. You’re not in financial trouble so the chastising from your neighbor was unnecessary. You’ll use the backpack and learn from your book.
what’s missing from the picture are his goals. Like with anybody, you need a goal to strive for.
If your friend has a goal to pay off debt, perhaps he’ll be mroe conscious of his consumer choices.
Having your friend set a goal and having you follow up on how he is acheiving his goal is a better approach than asking the questiong “why are you buying such and such?”
You can’t help Michael.
I have a friend in the same situation and although he says he wants to change, he doesn’t mean it. He can’t afford to pay his bankruptcy lawyer the $750 to start proceedings. Another friend, he and I go out to dinner once a month, and he puts his share on his card (not sure if it’s prepaid or not, and don’t really care), and my other friend and I put ours on our cards. I would never offer to treat him. Rich people save their money, poor people treat everyone.
Michael’s thought process is similar to a drug addict. They know what to say and whom to say it, but until THEY want to change their situation, nothing you can say will help them.
Save your energy and fight a different battle. Good post today.
There is one glaring difference in my opinion between the two situations. Michael NEEDS to change. That lifestyle will ruin him and his family. If you were to live even more frugally it would be by CHOICE. You don’t really NEED to save more whereas Michael most definitely does.
I’m in the same situation with a girl getting married a few months after me. We have made every effort to save money for our wedding and are paying for everything with cash. My acquaintance doesn’t have two dollars to rub together and speaks of saving money but never seems to. She also has a brand new iphone! At the beginning I passed along money saving tips I had found but now I just avoid all talk of it since it seems to make me enjoy my planning less. I feel terrible no matter what I do so now I just ignore it…
The millionaire next door sounds very judgmental and not someone I would like to travel with. As long as your decisions do not negatively impact your life – everyone has different goals and what they do with their money is their business. Your other friend might learn, but will more likely file for bankruptcy again without ever paying back his family member. I doubt saying anything would change him – so I would keep my mouth shut – but he definitely is wrong, a liar and a cheat (he can’t be that torn up over the loan, if he is buying new iPhones for his family).
“During dinner, Michael told me that he’s been reading personal-books.”
Since he has already brought up this subject, this would be a good opportunity for you to pass along one or two of your favorite personal finance books that you feel might be better in helping Michael learn to manage his money.
lostAnnfound beat me to it! Perfect opening to lend him “The Millionaire Next Door.” Not sure he’s ready for YMOYL yet…
Great, thought provoking post.
I disagree with the idea that you can’t help your friend. I do agree that you can’t fix his problems for him.
Your journey to financial responsibility was a long process. You knew you needed to change, but it took awhile for the light to come on as to what change really meant. It may take awhile for your friend as well, and I know it is frustrating that the light is not coming on for him. You can’t always bring someone around to the truth over a single fried chicken dinner.
That’s sad. I agree with a previous commenter that the ‘I’m torn up about the loan I never paid back’ is probably a lot of lip service (both to you and even to himself) since I’d bet that a good chunk of whatever he owes could have been paid back by not having iPhones.
Sheesh, it’s stories like this that make you realize that as much progress as we might be making on trying to get out of the debt cycle, we can only go so far. People just don’t get it.
I’m with you…except for the part where you suggest him “getting rid of” his dogs. Pets are a commitment. You don’t ‘get rid’ of them the same way you do an object.
How could you think of suggesting he get rid of the dogs? The other things, fine, but once you have a pet you have made a commitment, in my opinion, anyway. I’m sorry to be harsh, but I think it’s an irresponsible thing to even voice on this blog, especially so cavalierly in just a passing sentence. Newspapers have been full of stories over the last couple of years about the uptick in animals being dropped off at shelters and killed. I thought you were a pet lover so I’m surprised and disappointed.
The first thing I did was go to the restaurant link you posted and judge your tab at eating out instead of making some scrumptious chicken at home. Then, I finished reading the article.
Hey – I read this blog, would you expect any less? 😉
As a culture, we frown on “judging” in any form yet we have more lawyers and judges than we know what to do with. Everyone has an opinion. It will be interesting to watch the comments to see how people react to your judgement of your friend (I predict 99% will support you and your handling of the situation) and how they react to your neighbors judgement of you (Again I predict 99% will be against him).
You should not feel guitly for wincing at the new gadgets your friend has or the new car that he wants. You know that, given what your know of your friend’s circumstances, those are probably not good choices. From your own experience you are in a position to make a judgement based on the facts presented. By living on both sides you have become somewhat of an authority on the subject of personal finance and of getting out of debt and staying out of debt. From this position of authority you have the ability to show grace to your friend. You can offer your life as an example. You can offer advice if he asks. You cannot change your friend. There is no single piece of advice that you can give him that will revolutionize his life. Your example and humility will draw him to ask questions when he is ready.
These are hard words to live by. My natural tendency is to offer my opinion when I think it’s warrented. (In reality I’m doing it now though I think you are genuinely looking for responses.) I have a similar situation with a person that is struggling as well. I’ve offered advice and that has caused the relationship stress. It’s still hard to not give my opinion when, in my mind, it’s the exact thing they need to hear.
You can make a judgement based on what you know about the choices a person makes. You cannot judge whether a person is ready for the advice you want to give. Live by example and show him kindness and grace that extends throughout his life.
Also, concerning peachy’s comment:
Rich people save money; poor people do not. Rich people give money on their own terms and for intentional reasons. Poor people give money away and don’t know where it went. You will not be rich if you do not give.
Good luck to you and your friend.
I think ditching the dogs is a valid option – they are a luxury expense, and they also have the potential to cost you a ton of money at a moments notice (i.e. emergency vet bills).
You’re right JD, this guy doesn’t want to change things, he wants everything to be fixed for him (and by fixed, he wants himself and his wife to get great paying jobs so they don’t have to change a thing about their lifestyle). I wouldn’t waste your breath, he will likely just resent anything you have to offer at this point.
Using half of a paper towel for a few days? That is a little bit extreme, I don’t think you should have had to explain yourself for throwing away a greasy scrap of paper.
You should view your time with John as a sociological observation – don’t take it personally when he makes comments like that, just try to understand his perspective (don’t be afraid to stick up for yourself either, folks like that usually appreciate a good debate)
You can’t just ‘get rid of’ dogs. They are living, feeling, thinking things, not an object you own until its inconvenient. All a dog wants is to be part of a pack. To expel him from the pack, because you are having financial difficulties is a horrible thing to do.
If he wants to save money, maybe he should consider getting rid of his wife and kids instead, they are much more expensive to keep. Yes, I know that is ridiculous. But its the same thing. Dogs are not possessions, they are part of the family.
Always judge the action, never judge the person. That’s my rule.
It is impossible to make intelligent decisions without judging. All thought follows from judgments. Is this right? Is this wrong? Everything you decide follows from good or bad judgments. What to eat, what to drive, what to wear, what to do, what to say, on and on.
But, no, you cannot judge the person. Because you don’t know what they were able to learn from their past experiences. And you do not ever know what is in the other person’s heart. A person can do an objectively stupid and horrible thing for reasons that make subjective sense to him.
This is why Jesus said from the cross: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” He wasn’t saying that the soldiers who put him on the cross were doing the right thing. He was saying that they didn’t get it. All of us are guilty of not getting it re a good number of important things. There is not one exception to this rule. We’re flawed creatures.
Rob
Your neighbour sounds like the judgemental type that I can’t stand. I have never once met a vocally self-righteous person (this seems a fitting description) who realised that their pride was at least as weighty as their own supposed virtue.
If your friend genuinely asks you for your advice and help – if he truly wants to know what you think because he thinks you can help him, then be honest and tell him about the things you noticed.
If he doesn’t ask for your help or advice, you can offer it, but don’t be pushy about it. Offer it once and if he doesn’t take you up on it, let it go.
Friends like that in my experience will never change. They will simply continue on and then eventually in my experience view you negatively for trying to help. I have learned to have very frank discussions about frugality. People are either on board or not and it seems to me he probably just liked talking about his problems to his friend who would listen which is fine but I have leared to now not get emotionally vested in anyone else’s issues.
Arg: I would argue that a mortgage is a commitment too, but that’s already been thrown away in this case as well.
JD: How about giving him a copy of your book? 🙂
I agree with JonasAberg in comment #6. It’s one thing to own an Iphone, new car, nice house, etc. when you have no significant debt, a big emergency fund, and are meeting your other financial goals. Your friend is no where near that point, it’s not judging, it’s seeing someone running full steam towards a cliff and debating whether or not to call out a warning because you’re thinking they’ve got to see the edge of the cliff, surely they’ll stop.
You’re millionaire next door friend has been living alone too long and has come to the conclusion his ways are the best ways, rather than his ways work best for him. When you’re frugal to the point of endangering your health, like eating rotted food or repeatedly reusing bacteria ladden paper or cloth towels, that’s gone too far for me personally. If it wipes an orifice, I don’t let it air dry and reuse it.
The book purchase I can see from his end as in you implied by buying new that none of the books he had were worth reading, rather than explaining to him you’d been looking to get a copy of that particular book for a while and were planning on buying it sometime anyway.
Its the same ol’ saw. What we do ourselves or think is okay is frugal, what others do that we wouldn’t want to do or we feel it’s going too far, is cheap. The problem is when you see someone like your friend, who talks about how they need to get better while cutting at their own wrists, and you can’t help them because they don’t want the help and would actually fight you off if you tried to help. Or the flip side where twenty plus years of habits can’t be changed even when there is no longer a need to maintain that habit, it’s frustrating. In the end you offer what help you can, accept that some folks have a different idea of frugality than yours, and as long as you’re meeting your goals, you don’t need to care about someone judging you.
It’s a GREAT question you are posing here. I was brought to my knees last year from debt and totally insufficient income. I’ve changed my ways, and it took the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University course to get the job done. I brought many guests to the course with me while I was in it. None of them enrolled in the course, but I’m clear that the introduction to it alone made a difference.
I will use a phrase from one of my good friends…you cannot pee for people. Someday, they will be brought to their knees just as I was. Everyone’s “rock bottom” is different. I remember that every time I’m judging someone. I haven’t walked a day in their shoes, and they certainly haven’t walked a day in mine.
Thanks for a great post. Best to you.
Your millionare next door sounds alot like the generation of adults raised during the great depression. Save everything, plus some. Do not take it personally that when he fusses at you for throwing away half a paper towel. You would have the same attitude if you saw someone fix a huge meal and then watched as they threw away all of the left overs. As for your friend, if you value your friendship you should probably not discuss finances unless he brings up the topic, and then only provide advice if he asks for it. Otherwise let him make his own bed.
You shouldn’t encourage him to ditch family members. I agree, it is like telling him to get rid of his kids because they are too expensive. Yes, dogs can be expensive, but you make a life long commitment to them. 3-4 million dogs and cats are euthanized in shelters every year because of irresponsible people. Please don’t encourage more people to make this decision.
JD, I wanted to make a point that you might not have noticed. On your trip with the RMND, he told you what he thought about your expensives point blank. When he felt you spent to much money on a backpack or a book he said something. When Michael spent to much on a iphone or rental place did you say something? Someone who cares about your financial health will say something.
I have a similiar friend with money problems. When she tells me about bad choices I say something. For example, “$500 on a bag, did you put that on a credit card?” Keep your comments without judgement but questioning decistions. Say something to a friend because they might not be thinking the same “frugal” way that you do.
I just wanted to make one comment about the dogs. I agree you should never get rid of your dogs, however if you could have a friend or family member care for them instead for a few months (maybe JD could offer) that is a good opition.
Great Post!
Sounds like your neighbor is a cheapo. I’d rather be debt-free, happy, and able spend consciously than to be a millionaire living like a pauper.
Seriously. I’m all for being frugal, but I’m not gonna be eating rotting fruit any time soon.
I am acquainted with someone who seems trapped in a cycle of poor financial decisions combined with self-sabotage when it comes to employment. I finally had to make a conscious decision to stop taking on any worry or concern about their choices, as I’d find myself getting worked up over a situation that I had little or no control over. It’s takes a lot of mental energy just to stay on top of my own situation–the last thing I need to do is start putting energy into trying to help someone who’s not even helping themselves. As a matter of fact, I won’t even begin to broach the subject with them until I see evidence that they are actually working hard to address the underlying issues.
As for the other situation with your neighbor, being the parent of an Aspergers’ child, I’ve come to have a new appreciation for the fact that not everyone in the world is equally skilled in communicating gracefully with others. I’m not suggesting that one needs to submit to a non stop barrage of criticism, but if you know someone who’s otherwise a great person, and they are just blunt or brusque with their opinions at times, then perhaps they are just unaware of the impact their choice of words may be having. There’s nothing wrong with saying to John “I know being frugal is very important to you, and I know you’re interested in showing me what you’ve learned, but sometimes when we’re on a different page from each other, when you point it out it feels more to me like you’re criticizing me than sharing your knowledge.”
I’ve learned over time that it’s best to mind your own business and lead by example.
For example, I have some friends who are in a financial mess. I also have some friends who are very responsible, too. I’ve talked about money with all of them. What’s interesting is that I’ve learned something from talking to both. But I don’t tell them that one way or another is “right”, just what worked for me.
It’s similar to dieting and exercise. I’ve lost 40 lbs and kept it off by tracking calories and changing my lifestyle. I still enjoy some sweets from time to time, but I’ve cut back drastically from what I used to consume. The only thing that made me do it was me. No one else can control what goes in my mouth, and no one else can make me exercise.
As for your friend Michael, he has to walk his own path. If you want to support him, that’s great, but realize that he will choose a different path that you did, and he will likely truly hit rock bottom at some point, which is unfortunate. The same thing happens all the time with people who eat too much and don’t exercise. Sometimes it takes a heart attack or trip to the hospital to realize that the life they are leading isn’t sustainable.
I would also concur that in a dire situation (which appears to be looming for Michael), anything is on the table to turn things around and some hard choices may need to be made, including finding somewhere else for his dogs to go. Who knows, maybe this will be the turning point for him and his first goal — perhaps he can leave the dogs with his parents, a sibling or a friend and can only get them back when his financial house is in order and seriously on the mend. If his kids and wife are attached to those dogs, it will be a daily reminder that they need to get their financial house in order, and a great goal to work towards.
I often find myself judging, although rarely voicing. In fact, over the weekend I managed to have a couple of arguments with my husband whom I love dearly (and who is not a spender by no means) for silly things like using a dryer and spending a few bucks at vending macine over the course of 2 weeks. Believe me, we are neither in debt, not struggle. We save a bunch and put away, and live comfortably. But like the dude on the boat, I often find where else it could have been saved (and yes, then drop a grand for a trip to a couple of races). So, about Michael…I would be afraid to say much at the dinner in fear to ruin the dinner. But as we part ways, i’d offer to sit down and chat, if he wants to. I don’t think he does. Honestly, weird considering his history…but then again, some take longer to learn, some never do. It’s just we always want to scream loud when it is obvious to US what to do.
As for pets – I can only imagine the comments from pet lovers. I believe since you got cats on your own and spend a bunch for them, you didn’t mean to have it in a “passing sentence”. But the idea has its merits. Probably not first on the list, not even second (far down from iPhones, big house for rent, new car and so on). I surely wouldn’t get a bigger house just to accomodate pets.
Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)? I’m betting they ‘love’ the owner who feeds them; do not confuse the ‘affection’ of your pet with real feelings…only humans have that capacity.
Nothing against animals, but family and people are more important. You can’t get rid of the kids (RELAX…it’s a joke, people!), but pets, unfortunately, are a luxury. BTW, we have two dogs.
Nice post, J.D.
It sucks even when people you don’t look up to clearly show their disapproval of your actions. The need for belonging and approval is strong in most people, and the hurt and anxiety of disapproval kick in even when we know, logically, we shouldn’t care.
The differences I see in the two scenarios above is that the first scenario seems to contain an element of asking for advice, and the advice-giver seems to have backed off when he started getting signals that the advice wasn’t wanted (Michael didn’t want the cheaper house, started shying away from financial questions, etc.) The second scenario seems to consist of unasked-for advice that may have continued despite any signals JD might have given John to back off. There can be several reasons for John’s behavior:
1. JD has treated John as a source of financial information in the past (i.e., the interview for this blog), and John may now regard his role with JD as permanent giver of advice.
2. JD may not have given John clear signals to back off when the criticism started to hurt, or John didn’t get the signals JD was sending.
3. John may have consciously or unconsciously gotten competitive with JD, and decided to teach this young, so-called finance guru a thing or two about how real savers live. (I stress that this may have been unconscious — we all act like asses occasionally and don’t really know why.)
4. John may be an angry, tightly-wound person who finds it difficult to stop himself from commenting when someone does something differently from how he would do it. He may be beating himself up about it now, wishing he could develop the ability to play it a little cooler. (Welcome to my life!)
My point is, we don’t know why John made several comments about JD’s lack of frugality — he may have done it for all the right reasons, and it just came out as graceless. But, JD, you seem to have avoided doing the same thing to Michael while at the same time retaining your liking for John. So your uncomfortable moments with John in Alaska, and the time you spent analyzing your emotional reaction to those moments, have helped you to become a more compassionate, Atticus-like man. And that’s a good thing. Excellent, really.
First of all, I don’t think John was ‘judging’ you. More likely he was pointing out things that, to him, seem like waste and making suggestions for alternatives.
I’m assuming that he knows that you respect the choices he has made and admire his lot in life? If so, it’s perfectly sensible that he’d try to drop a few words from his store of canniness – he no doubt sees himself as something of a mentor. This is no bad thing, wish I knew someone like him.
I’m not entirely convinced that some of the people criticising him in their posts are in a position to make assumptions that he’s some sort of stereotypical greedy skinflint.
As for Michael, he has to realise how bad things can get for himself. No amount of well meant hints and tips will interest someone who remains hypnotised by the dizzy whirl of consumerism.
I’ve gone through a similar thing with my elder brother (thankfully he’s in a better state than Michael) and he’s just not interested!
J.D., if you’re honest, as well as being concerned for a friend, is there an element of you wanting to make up for your past financial errors by vicariously sorting out Michael?
I don’t think John is a skinflint. I just think he’s very very frugal, and that frugality has been successful for him. But, at the same time, I’m frugal too. But John and I are just frugal in different ways. (I’ll never own a boat, for example.) I think there are things that I could learn from him still, but I don’t see the point in foregoing half a paper towel.
As for the dogs, I think some of you are missing the forest for the trees. I love animals, and I’m all for being responsible to the pets you choose to keep. But when you’re in dire circumstances, you may not be able to keep them. You may have to look at other options.
UPDATE: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
It’s frustrating to talk to people like this. Many times they seek out people (like us savers) for advice on how to get their lives on the right track financially, yet they aren’t willing to control their finances and basically have some self control. In my line of work I see women on welfare complaining about how hard it is to live. But, they have the fake fingernails, trendy new clothes and $1K purses! They aren’t ready to listen.
One more thing. KEEP THE DOGS! They provide a great deal of happiness in our lives and ask for very little.
Get rid of the dogs? Seriously? Get rid of the fancy phones first. Dogs are members of the family, devoted, loving members of the pack who’d lay down their lives for you, all for the price of a bit of kibble and a warm place to sleep, a pat on the head, and some excercise each day.
And what would that teach his boys? That when a beloved family member is inconvenient or expensive, we just get rid of it, to an almost certain death? Kids generalize… and it’s not too much of a leap for kids to think, gee, what happens if I get to be too inconvenient or inexpensive… plus kids have a unique bond… how’s a kid going to react to having it’s pets yanked away to an almost certain death because it’s too expensive, while dad’s playing with his fancy new i-phone and financing his new car?
No, there’s lots of things to cut before you cut out the dog. Dogs don’t need a big house. In fact, they’re happier in closer quarters with their families.
I was surprised at your get rid of the dogs suggestion. True – it may be necessary to find homes for pets in a dire situation. In this situation, however, the iphones and new car should be sacrificed before a pet. When someone gets a pet – it is a commitment that should be honored if at all possible. Too often people think of pets as disposable and I think that is extremely unfortunate (and says a lot about our society).
Hi, J.D.,
What an interesting and thought-provoking piece. It is interesting to me that your thoughts today are based on the Bible. In fact, both the judge not and the mote ideas are from Matthew 7. What interests me most is that many people live by the judge not saying (and most of us without knowing where it comes from!).
What we need to realize is that shortly after saying not to judge lest we be judged with the same yardstick, Jesus says to cast out the mote in our own eye in order to see clearly enough to help remove the speck from another’s eye.
In other words, we are supposed to continually work at becoming better people for the express purpose of helping others become better. It seems to me that in the issue of finances, you have done an amazing job of working hard at getting out of debt, understanding wise principles to live by and helping others to understand how to do the same.
In my opinion, you are not judging when you see that your friend is not following a wise financial path. You’ve done the work, you have a clear eye and now you have a responsibility to help him see his way clear to a wiser lifestyle.
As to millionaire friend, I think it is also related. Proverbs says open rebuke is better than concealed love and the wounds of a friend are faithful.
Your millionaire friend, whether too extreme or not, was trying to be faithful to you in pointing out what he considered your wastefulness. Sure, it was uncomfortable, but it made you think. Now you can decide where you draw the line on frugal.
The question is, did you do the same for Michael? Did you make him uncomfortable enough to think things through? We all have Michaels in our lives in one way or another. Some want advice, some want lip service, some want to hear themselves talk, but a faithful friend will lay it out clearly.
Hope this gives a little perspective.
So I’m not the only one with friends like this. We have some friends who went overboard building a new house, constantly have to have every new consumer electronic, have a large library of video games and DVDs, and are drowning. He is working 2 part-time jobs in addition to his full-time job. She is doing a couple of (legit) work-at-home jobs. And, even though my wife and I have done budget counseling with them, they will not change their spending habits. They truly believe they are under-deposited and not over-drawn.
I do agree with the above commenters that getting rid of the dogs is not a priority. Dogs are a commitment that should not be taken lightly or trivialized by getting rid of them to pay for luxuries.
This is a really interesting and intelligent post. Thanks! I would like to suggest two things that I did not see in the comments so far.
1) Regarding Michael, making bad decisions is its own punishment in life (just as making good decisions is its own reward). In other words, Michael’s decisions are already making his life miserable, so there is no reason for you to make it worse by being judgmental towards him.
It seems pretty clear that he suffers from an addiction to material consumption. I doubt that you can help any addict by telling him that he is making bad decisions. He already knows it; he just don’t know how to stop. Imagine that Michael had an addiction to alcohol or cigarettes or gambling or drugs. What would you do then? Being judgmental probably would not help.
2) Regarding John, maybe you should be judgmental toward him! He sounds like a jerk. From what you described, I would say he suffer from the opposite addiction to Michael. Michael is addicted to buying whereas John is addicted to saving. Neither person knows how to deal with money successfully, and as a result they have sacrificed their freedom, their intelligence, and their ability to have compassionate relationships.
I think that both men are suffering under very heavy psychological burdens that are making their lives much less fulfilling and less joyful than they could be. Michael and John don’t need to be judged by you; they need your sympathy and support instead. But, seriously, I wouldn’t go on vacation (or even out to dinner) with either one. I would make it clear that you want to offer your help when they are ready to take it; but then I would stop enabling their harmful behavior.
Sorry, but dogs are like kids, you can’t just get rid of them in hard times. Certainly, you shouldn’t take on dogs when you’re not financially able to (and similarly, you should do your utmost to not have kids when you can’t support them). If you’ve already got dogs when the financial hard times hit, well then too bad, they’re still your responsibility. You can’t get rid of the kids, can’t get rid of the dogs. No real pet owner would want to, either.
I think it’s great your friend feels open enough to talk about his situation with you – that’s step #1 in my opinion. And he’s reading personal finance books – I’d suggest a few for him to read. After that his actions have to be his own without comment unless he asks for advice or your opinion. Peoples spending habits are very personal and something that means nothing to you and is a waste of money might be his most important thing.
It’s the same with people that have no hobbies, don’t read unless they have to and I have to wonder what the heck they do when they get home from work – mostly they watch tv. I personally find that a total and complete waste of time, but people are emotionally invested in “their shows”, and have no idea how to relate to me having no cable or network stations at all.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with judging – it’s pretty hard not to. However, I think keeping your opinions to yourself is the right thing to do.
I have a family member who sounds like Michael – I’d love to help but any conversations about money go nowhere fast.
Bottom line is that you have to let people find their own way.
I know a lot of people who whine about their financial situation and my offer to help is very precise. I say that I have a system (the envelope system) and I could show them how it works. They can try it out for 14 days and if it’s not for them, then 14 days is not a huge time investment.
And then I say nothing. I put the ball in their court. I never pester or follow up or preach. If the person is interested or serious about fixing their finances, they will follow up with me. I don’t stress out if they don’t follow up. It just means they aren’t ready.
For the record, nobody has followed up with me in the 10 years I have been using the envelope system. Oh but they still whine about they money woes and I continue to feed my retirement fund, savings and new car in 2017 fund. Oh yeah, I am totally smug about it, but I hide it well.
FINALLY, someone else who thinks Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad, Poor Dad is a terrible book. Somebody’s gettin’ rich all right, but it’s certainly NOT his readers.
What’s amazing to me is that in this case you HAVE been in Michael’s shoes, and yet you are still judging him. Stop it. Really. It just makes you sound like a a jerk.
Most of your readers have read your stories — we know you were still buying CDs and comic books when you had loads of debt. It took you years for things to really click and for you to make big changes. And remember, when you hit your hardest times, you were lucky that it was times of general economic prosperity AND you had a family business that kept you employed. Without those factors, you could easily have been unemployed and filing for bankruptcy.
This isn’t about Michael, it’s about you. If you really want to be a personal finance guru (and in many ways, you already are) you are going to have to remember what it’s like to be in over your head but clinging to the belief that it’s really not that bad. And you are going to have to find ways of helping people in whatever form they are able to accept. In this case it’s encouraging him to follow through on his savings account idea, maybe even sitting down with him as he opens it and sets up automatic transfers. Maybe once he sees that working he’ll be ready for a debt snowball or another idea.
Remember, JD, it’s easy to preach to the choir. You can be the guy that helps people go from middle of the road finances to millionaires next door. But if you really want to change people’s lives, you need to learn to support your friends and readers even if they haven’t figured it all out yet. Eventually, it’ll click for Michael, and it’ll be a lot better for both of you if you haven’t completely alienated him by the time it does.
Another bad sign is a financially challenged person reading “The Secret”.
Regarding the dogs, I’ll share one of my favorite tools that I use when dealing with a design problem, or any problem for that matter. Generally when faced with a problem, people will come up some solution to a problem and then think that’s the only way — they quite literally fall in love with their first idea and then stick with it. The exercise is to come up with at least three ways of accomplishing the same goal.
So in Michael’s situation, he could have a lot of starting points to his problem of “saving money” or “getting my spending under control”:
– Dropping the iPhones
– Live somewhere cheaper
– Cut cable tv
– Find a temporary home for the dogs
– Find a permanent home for the dogs
– Find a cheap way to get to work
And on and on. The next stage is to attach dollar values and priorities to these items and then start working the list. We don’t know Michael’s whole situation, either. Perhaps the place he chose to rent puts him in immediate proximity to family or friends who can provide childcare so his wife can work, or maybe it’s close to a lot of places his wife could get a job and the other place wasn’t. Maybe Michael was doing a favor for someone and watching the dogs … and that favor has now become a burden that’s too heavy to bear. Perhaps he is a iPhone developer and needs at least one. Who knows, every life is different and we can’t judge based on a few sentences in a blog post.
I’m also fairly sure that the boat trip was full of a lot more than just grousing about paper towels and oranges, too — I’m sure a lot of fun was had and it was a mostly pleasant experience, that can’t be judged on a few examples.
The main issue as I see it here – he doesn’t want advice. he wants to go on as before – then complain when the situation doesn’t improve.
There is a time and place for Dave Ramsey, and it sounds like your friend Michael is it. He needs a drill sargeant yelling at him for every stupid decision he makes until he wakes up this is his life and his family’s life his is messing up. A drug addict is a very good analogy.
OTOH John’s actions do not bother me, because his actions follow his words. We have friends who are extremely frugal, much more than we are. I always enjoy going over to their house and seeing how they live. I may not decide to follow all their choices, but it definitely opens me up to possibilities, options I might not have even thought of.
Love the footnote.
George Carlin used to have a bit about driving. Everyone that drove slower than him was a (moron) and everyone who drove faster was a maniac. I guess it’s the same with personal finance, and this post points it out well. Everyone needs to find his own financial balance. Hitting rock-bottom (or conversely, hitting the sky with a lot of wealth) is the only way some people are going to move their personal fulcrum to change that balance point.
Whoa, there’s a physics metaphor taken too far! 😀
You need to let your friend find his way. It’s unfortunate that he’s chosen to buy iPhones for his family (and the iTouch), but it’s a VERY clear sign that he isn’t ready to change how he thinks about money. I’d leave it at you offering to lend him any book from your excellent PF library. I’d suggest he read this blog, but I don’t think he’s there yet. If his was one of the reader stories, I don’t think your request to be kind would go far. Stories like this are *very* frustrating.
Regarding your neighbor, well, he got where he is by being who he is, and part of that is why you like him. So file it away. Maybe next time you’ll go to a used bookstore, if you want. Or don’t! It’s up to you 🙂
To each his own. You can give your opinion but it will only have an effect if people want it, otherwise your just slinging mud against a wall to see if some will stick. We all have areas we can improve upon and in relationships some can be better than others. Your friend Michael reminds me of my sister who hit bottom a while ago and still spends money that she doesn’t have and she will never learn. Your friend John reminds of what I could become if I wasn’t married to my wife who keeps me from the frugal darkside. I stay frugal and maximize savings in many ways but not so much that I am eating other peoples fruit leftovers.
@Karen — did you read the last four paragraphs? I think J.D. knows he has already walked this path and doesn’t want to judge.
I think it was a very well written and thought provoking piece. I visualize it as J.D. climbing a mountain, with the millionaire guy at the top wearing nothing but a loincloth, J.D. somewhere on the middle with his trim new pack, and Michael at the bottom carrying everything but the kitchen sink. J.D. wants to get up to that perch, but isn’t so sure about the loincloth, but he knows for darn sure that Michael is not going to get up that mountain without dropping some stuff — but he is still attached to it. He wants to help his friend up the mountain, but his friend has to be willing to change something he’s packing to do so.
JD, you are absolutely correct in your exasperation. But as you mention, being judged sucks.
If I were in your shoes, my judgments would be declared to my SO, but not to Michael. Even with the personal finance equivalent of crashing the car into the ditch, his actions are saying he still isn’t ready to receive wisdom. He wants to get back into a shiny new car and speed down the Consumer Highway again.
You have to step back and remember that you had to come to your realizations on your own. So too with Michael. It will be painful to watch, but for some people Hard Knocks is the only school that they will learn from.
Finally, Kiyozaki (“Rich Dad, Poor Dad” author) has yet to pen a book of non-fiction. His books are a get rich quick scheme. For him, not his readers.
J.D.,
Great column.
Katy
Michael asked for your advice/perspective. You did not ask John for his advice about backpacks or paper towels. Also, by any reasonable standard, Michael is being unreasonable and probably also unethical. You were not acting similarly on the boat. Most importantly, Michael just used our country’s court system to legally ditch all of his debts and leave his creditors with nothing. You didn’t choose to do something like that. So, judge away! Sometimes it’s hard not not.
Also, pets are a lifetime commitment that should not be “gotten rid of” when they become inconvenient. The pet didn’t choose for you to adopt or buy it. You decided to be its caretaker until it does. I’d choose to cut any other area of my life – cell phone, other technology, going out, housing, etc. – before I would give up my cats or any other animal I had.
Finally, I am often generally stumped by this “no judging” thing. I get that it’s a worthy goal in many situations. But in other situations, go ahead and judge! We humans engage in plenty of behaviors that are outright immoral, stupid, irresponsible, illegal, etc. Not sure when we decided that “judging” isn’t allowed. I judge people who are violent, I judge people who commit bank fraud, and I’m fine with judging someone who bankrupts on all of his creditors while continuing to indulge in new luxuries that he can’t afford and might bankrupt on again one day.
Dan #52 — great George Carlin reference and definitely applicable here.
JD,
Please don’t suggest “get rid of the dogs”. My husband and I are saddened by people putting their dogs on Craig’s List for sale or free. I understand there are some circumstances when you have to, but dogs deserve to be loved too. I would not say to you “do you really need 4 cats?” or “get rid of your cats”. (Not sure how many you have now).
…and you live in Portland where even homeless people have dogs! They can “afford” it.
As for judging Michael, you tried to help him but if he is not ready to change, he won’t. On the other hand, we judge people by our standards but forget that “do what works for you” still applies. When we first moved here, we were both unemployed too. I bought a $400 suit and my husband could not accept it. I used that suit to get a job within 2 weeks!!! The suit was paid for many times over.
I think it s never ok to judge someone else because you might be in that persons situation one day
OMG, I have been wanting to comment on this topic for 2 days but haven’t had an opportunity. Time has passed so the need to rant on the specific situation has diminished. But I can see how this post generated >60 comments before I woke up.
In general though, what bothers me is this:
If you’re screwing yourself over and you’re not going to do anything to help yourself and you’re going to get belligerent when people offer advice… then SHUT UP. I don’t want to hear about it!
Now for the rant: Don’t complain to me about how hard it is to live in LA on less than 10K/month when the only reason it’s so difficult is because you have a huge self-imposed debt burden that you’re servicing rather than paying down, you travel 5 star 2-3 times per year, you have a shoe fetish, you lease luxury cars, and you’re terrified of learning how to figure out how to do the math for even a 20% tip. Don’t complain about how you can’t possibly quit the job you hate. Don’t get angry when someone gently suggests reading Your Money or Your Life to help you think about the issues of life balance you’ve been constantly complaining about (not even Total Money Makeover or The Millionaire Next Door, which we secretly think you need). Those of us who live very comfortable lifestyles on far less don’t want to hear it. Those of us who know people who are actually suffering and who worry about all the kids whose food and medical is going to get cut in the next CA budget… really just could not care less about your situation unless you decide to do something to change it. Hoo. Thank you.
And, it chaps my hide the way that all the middle class folks just say, “Oh, you poor thing, I understand how your spending and fixed expenses always grow to meet your income so it’s harder when someone who makes 20K/month leaves their job than when someone who makes 5K/month does.” That’s only true if you’re a financially irresponsible idiot at 20K and making some sacrifices at 5K/month. Your spending doesn’t HAVE to match your income and it shouldn’t! Just because you can get a loan for a 7 figure+ condo doesn’t mean you should buy it. If you can’t get a loan because you don’t have 20% down, then you probably shouldn’t buy it.
hoo more rant… I feel better now
I think I need to leave LA… it’s in danger of making me soft.
@ Impulse Magazine: Don’t really follow your comment. Some things are bad, so please judge them. You say we can’t judge because we might be in that person’s shoes one day. Again, don’t follow. If I commit murder one day, feel free to judge me. If I steal from an old lady, I give you permission to judge me. If I declare bankruptcy and leave my creditors with nothing while continuing to enjoy luxury goods and not changing my behavior, go ahead and judge. It’s bad activity that we don’t have to pretend to be neutral about. And it’s not true that we could all be in a different person’s shoes one day. I am quite certain that I will never do any of the 3 things I listed above, and I also believe that I have enough control over my life, my decisions, and the subsequent consequences to ensure that this is the case.
I don’t think judgment is necessarily a bad thing, but it’s often unproductive. Mostly it just lets people feel angry or inferior or smugly self-righteous (I think the last one is the reason so many people like to do it). The world is probably going to carry on pretty much as it was regardless of whether you judge it correct or not.
What makes a difference to others isn’t how you feel about them inside, but how you act towards them outside. You may hate something a friend is doing, but hide that from them out of politeness, and they’ll never change. If you point it out to them it may help, or it may alienate them. Personally, I may not feel like I’ve lost much if I alienate a person I can’t stand to be around anyway.
Peer pressure is a powerful force, and it can be used for good purposes as well as bad. People talk about good role models for kids all the time — we want successful, healthy role models for our kids because kids try to emulate their role models. Well, adults do this, too. Maybe not as obviously, but we do. It’s why “keeping up with the Joneses” is such a problem. We see everyone around us looking successful and we try to emulate that.
I see no problem with sharing your values with your friends. It makes you an example. Hopefully you’re an example they look up to and want to emulate, and not the other way around. At the same time, there’s a difference between leading by example and constantly criticizing others for not following the example you try to set. And regardless of the example you set, you can’t just expect others to follow it. Some might. Others wont. Some will follow but only to a small degree. You have some influence over those around you, but only some.
It’s very possible to take the “judge not” too far.
Although I’m a Christian liberal hippie type who has always been “live and let live” etc, as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized there really is a place for sensible judgment of others’ actions.
Especially now that I have kids, I’ve gotten more comfortable saying “hey, that’s just not cool!”
If your friend was abusing his dogs, wouldn’t you have spoken up and scolded him on that?
His poor financial decisions are essentially abusing his family and their future–I think you should have said something.
The scope of your friend’s financial problems are really huge, making the situation totally different than when John was criticizing you. John was a jerk to scold you over wasting fractions of pennies. It’s jerky behavior because pennies don’t make a difference. At all.
But your friend is thousands in debt to his own family, he has kids, he’s bankrupt, and contemplating unnecessarily spending thousands more. I do think you should have said something, and not been subtle–he’s walking off a cliff!
First of all… I am not going to give you any grief for the conversation you had. Second, I thank you for your honesty.
Dee
Miss Manners suggests to say very seriously when the person complains, “I’m very worried about you. We need to take you to a counselor.” That’s supposed to stop the complaining, but I think with today’s entitled adults it’ll just provide more woe is me complaining.
I personally think the difference is that when you were feeling judged, although you could have been more frugal, you were doing fine. Spending less than you earn, saving, etc.
Your friend doesn’t seem to. He is spending a lot of money/planning to spend a lot of money that he apparently doesn’t have. He might end up in a much worse situation than he currently is, and very soon. You tried to help him and he just didn’t change, I understand the frustration: he went to you for advice/help, didn’t he?
I have to say though that I was shocked too by the pet thing. I guess what follows could be qualified as a rant, so you should feel free to skip it:
[RANT]I have seen pets let themselves die after being separated from their owners, and I personally see it as equivalent to suggesting he abandon his kids and/or dump his wife to save some money. They’re sentient beings, not items you can sell second hand, being apart from the people they love affects them.
While, when you can’t afford to feed them and take care of them properly,the humane thing to do is find other people – that they know well if possible – who can take care of them better than you, he obviously could cut corners in various other ways, and this is more of a last resort kind of thing so I don’t see it applicable to his case.
I understand that people have different things they think are more important and different things they are willing to sacrifice, but in a case of an iPod, the iPod doesn’t suffer from being bought by someone else, know what I mean? A pet does. Putting aside the high risk they would just be killed if given to an animal association rather than an owner directly (unless they are young enough to be qualified “adoptable”), it can be a very traumatic experience.
I would instead make sure to advise someone not to adopt another pet if they were thinking of it and are in financial trouble, and wait until they can afford it. It is better for a pet not to be adopted rather than adopted then abandoned, all else being equal.It’s probably much easier on the owner, too.[/RANT]
Anyway. It is normal for people to judge other people. In this case, it seems to me he asked for help but rejected anything that wasn’t a “magic formula”, and refused both effort and perceived efforts. It makes a lot of sense to be incredibly frustrated when you try so hard to help someone and they just reject everything you say and prefer doing something else that you know will hurt them.
There isn’t much you can do though. You can bang you head on a wall, but that’s pretty much it. He needs to really be willing to try, and then he’ll kick himself for not doing it sooner.
Okay, I’m going to pass on a little advice of my own here — I am very familiar with the Portland rental market and any house you could get for $500 must have had some VERY serious drawbacks. I know you mention you thought they wouldn’t stay there long term, but it might not have been the healthiest or safest bet at all.
I am staying in an old house with cheap rent and believe me, I’m paying for it — constant plumbing problems, rats in the basement, and a leaky roof. The landlord helps repair them every time, but not always very quickly. If I had kids, I would be even more worried.
It’s great that you want to help him and give him advice, but don’t presume everything you suggest is always going to be best.
This is such a great article. Thank you for sharing. Destined to be a GRS classic!
FYI…I’m moving to Portland in 10 days and have been looking at rentals. Supply is high and there are a lot of deals out there for those who want them. We got a modest 2-bd in a good close-in neighborhood for under $800.
Great Post!
As my mother always says…”Grown people do what they want to do” –
Your friend will need to be broken down, or tired before he gets to the point where he wants to change. Be there for him when he gets to that point.
Love GetRichSlowly……your site has been an inspiration, and has really helped me stay the course.
Shame on you for your callous remark about the dogs. I know a lot of people feel the same way as you do because we live in a rural area and people dump ther dogs and cats near our house when they get tired of them. All our pets have been animals that we have found and rescued. We’ve also found homes for several that we couldn’t keep. Responsible pet owners don’t just “get rid” of their pets when it becomes inconvenient to keep them. And they shouldn’t be pet owners if they’re not going to behave responsibly.
Wow… amazingly measured comments other than mine.
I still stand by mine though.
When someone is complaining and refuses to take any positive action, you have a right to judge, or at the very least you have the right to politely change the subject and give up on helping or trying to help. This person has shown you that they really don’t want you to spend time or effort finding things or making suggestions.
Re: the frugal guy next door. He sounds like my dad, a depression baby. When he tells me things like this, I explain to him why I made that decision, generally it is usually because my time is valuable. (Yes, I used to do X, but now my time is worth Y/hour, so it isn’t worth my time to save Z<Y anymore. Sometimes it is a quality argument or just that I LIKE something and can afford it.) He always accepts that (true frugal people understand buying top of the line and using it for 20+ years). I don’t think of it as judging from him, but a topic of conversation, especially since our responses allow different priorities for different people, which is the whole point of frugality, isn’t it?
p.s. I agree there’s a lot of things to cut before dogs. Pets are people too. There are homeless people who won’t give up their pets and that is OK, and possibly the right choice to make.
I believe that being frugal is a means to an end – to get your financial house in order.
Once you have your financial house in order, feel free to spend money on things or experiences that make you happy. Life is short, enjoy the fruits of your labor.
For me personally, frugality taken to the extreme is not how I want to live my life. I’m financially responsible. I don’t have an iPhone but I don’t want to worry about half a paper towel either.
Agree with pretty much everything but the dogs. Aaahhhh! Terrible idea. Not just for the dogs but this getting rid of them idea creates a whole new set of issues that will cost more in therapy down the road: abandonment, loyalty, values, etc.
And in all sincerity, I do not wish to be judgmental. There is a fine line between judging and apathy.
Thanks though for the great money savings hints and tips throughout the article.
It’s hard to judge but people always do regardless even if it’s not right.
You can’t force change upon people. So try and instill in him an ‘eager want’ to change. Once that want is established be free flowing in your praise of his accomplishments. So instead of criticizing his choice in living arrangements try and extol the virtues of living in a more modest location. $500 was probably a little extreme in his eyes and suggesting a comparable place for even $1000 would net a savings of $300 that he could then use to fuel his desire for something else, like a new car.
A lot of really good responses, and some not so good. What really cracks me up are the people who say to stop judging because judging is bad. Do they realize they’re judging…?
The issue isn’t so much about judging or not judging, (we judge every day) it’s about not being a blind hypocrite when you judge. JD is well qualified to judge (as he already has) and appears to have done so in a kind non arrogant manner. Sure Michael has to make the decision to actually change on his own, but JD can be a powerful TRUE friend if he points out the inconsistencies between what he’s telling him and his actions.
I was a lifeguard for several years at a beach in San Diego. Relatively few people enjoyed being told to move when they were in a dangerous area, but that never really deterred us. A few people actually appreciated it, those were ethically the ones we did it for anyway. Just because people dislike having someone notice their lack of experience (or blunt stupidity sometimes) isn’t a valid reason to not point it out.
As to “The Real Millionaire next Door”, your story made me laugh. Sounds like my Grandpa… while we may find those who value frugality above basic personal hygiene and health a little odd (or annoying), that’s the generation that saved the wealth our generation has already squandered. Now our generation is busy spending our kids money.
There was a time when fruit and paper towels were not so cheap and easy to come by. Deep in the hilarity of old age there is a lesson, or at least a self-realization for those of us who are younger to observe. So far the garbage and “recycling” cans crammed full every single week by almost every household has yet to get the point across I think. Really, though, paper towels on a boat? I thought that’s what jeans were for.
Oh the times I have seen this senario played out among my family members! How many times are you supposed to bail someone out from their financial mess before you throw up your hands and scream?! Despite good counsel and bailouts, some people will continue to make the same bad choices again and again. And this is what I’ve learned…YOU CAN’T MAKE A GROWN PERSON DO ANYTHING–EVER! You can’t force people to make wise choices. And while I feel compassion for their situation, I also can judge them for the way they got there…AGAIN. If you can afford to do something, then by all means do it (JD). But if you can’t afford it, then don’t. It’s really very simple…a matter of self control. But then, most people lack that, don’t they? Everyone makes mistakes, but the wise learn from their mistakes.
Your friend sounds like my family. The problem is that they always seem to come out fine…with the new iphones, vacations, cars, etc. They have learned to work the system and start new businesses and let them take the fall (phones and cars are business expenses, right?)filing bankrupt on an old business and starting up a new (don’t ask me how, it just happened again last year.)
I’m the one struggling with jealousy and wanting to do right but also stomping my feet, “It’s not fair!” Yet I sleep at night and have my needs+ met so all is good.
I know what I should and shouldn’t say to my friends and family about choices I see and don’t agree with, but I still judge. Everybody judges. Maybe it’s wrong, but it doesn’t seem like something a person can just turn off.
My mom thinks my husband and I shouldn’t have a biweekly housekeeper or lawn service. I don’t think she should have tried giving me 5% college loans but let my sister use as much as she wants for free.
My friends shouldn’t be buying $1000 a month in groceries like soda and chips and bottled water when they are $30k plus in debt. Or have uber-cell phones. They think I should spend more on my dogs.
My coworkers should stop buying new cars when they’re still upside down on their old ones. They think I should develop the taste for beer and stop being so uptight about a budget.
Everybody judges. The trick is to offer an opinion when asked and shut up the rest of the time. I think you handled the thing with your friend correctly. I also think your “millionaire next door” should have kept his mouth shut more. Judging is tricky, keeping your mouth shut isn’t.
I haven’t read the other comments yet, but one big issue sticks out to me:
you and your friend Micheal were already talking about his finances, therefore I think it was appropriate if you would have pushed back harder and really tried to hammer your points home. He clearly still doesn’t “get it”.
Your friend John was giving you unsolicited advice without delving into the details like you did with Michael. However, maybe you felt bad because part of you knew it was good advice, albeit on a much smaller scale than Michael’s mess.
My sister in law babysits for a Michael-clone. They are always complaining that they don’t have any money “because of the economy” but they still send their kids to private school, get milk delivered to their home, buy designer clothes and the husband still keeps a motorcycle (financed I assume). They want my sister-in-law to drop her price (which is already too low, IMO) but don’t seem to want to cut back anywhere else. I don’t know the full story of course, but appearances in this case seem to be right on.
Also, I think suggesting “getting rid of the dogs” was insensitive.
It’s rather similar to having an obese friend who constantly moans about being overweight and yet ….. you see what they eat for lunch (fast food) and see how much they exercise (never). After a while, you lose any empathy and DO become judgmental.
It’s been said, but I agree with other commenters about the dogs. Dumping an animal that loves you when it becomes an inconvenience is awful. People who do that should not own pets.
That said, the dogs are not the problem in this situation. I know people who fell on hard times and moved their family into an apartment for a year. They walk their dogs. It’s not ideal–of course they want a yard–but it was a temporary solution. Giving up their pets was not an option, nor was it necessary.
As for helping your friend, I don’t think there’s much you can do other than offer advice when he asks for it. Like you, I didn’t change my ways for quite some time, and it had to come from ME. I have friends who are awful with finances–declared bankruptcy twice and yet were in line for the new iPhone. It’s so frustrating because you want to help them, want to make them see what they are doing, but you can’t. I remind myself of this quote by Anais Nin:
“You cannot save people, you can only love them.”
I don’t think I’m judging my friends, I’m just frustrated sometimes and want to make them see what they’re doing to themselves. But Anais Nin was right, all you can do is be a friend and listen when they need to talk (then lock yourself in a closet and scream profanities after listening to their crappy choices). 🙂
@ #34 Holly: You reference a study by Pavlov from the early 1900’s, but fail to reference ANY animal studies done in the 100 years since Pavlov did his work (and his work was cutting open the digestive tract of animals, by the way). Countless animal studies have shown that when in fear (oh sorry, humans are so much better than other animals and are the only ones with feelings)….when exposed to a stimulus that would incite fear in a human…animals given the choice between a food source and a texturally soft item will always choose the texturally soft item. In human babies we’d say they prefer parental comfort over food. But of course, animals have no feelings, so they can’t be scared OR comforted…
Did it ever occur to you that feelings – fear, love, etc. – are just evolutionary constructs that keep us alive? Have you ever seen a previously abused dog physically shy away from a person similar in appearance to their abuser? But no, they aren’t afraid….
Have you also ever seen the dogs at the pound locked in cages? Suggesting people give up their dogs IS the same as suggesting they give up their children.
There are two issues here. The first is judging behavior, the second is sharing that judgment with your friends. I think we have not only a right but a responsibility to judge bad behavior. What does it say about YOUR morals and standards if you see nothing wrong with how he’s living his life?
This is a pet peeve of mine: how people don’t want to ‘judge’, so they refuse to call a spade a spade. They refuse to identify bad behavior, but a side effect of that is often refusing to identify good behavior. Everything has just become a muddle of legitimate choices. I don’t think that’s a good thing.
As far as calling people on it: there is also a difference between bad and wrong. I have no problem with [what I judge to be] bad decisions being made by autonomous adults that pay their bills. Half of the most successful ideas out there I thought were stupid when they started out (many I STILL don’t understand), so I admit to being frequently wrong and my philosophy and approach reflects that. This is your situation with John. He is judging your spending decisions as bad. Bully for him. I support his right to make that judgment, but not him being obnoxious about it. If you judge his behavior to be obnoxious you are within your right to ask him to stop and/or not spend time with him. Simple. If he doesn’t put you off, then don’t worry about it. My grandfather used to make comments like that to me and I’d shrug and chalk it up to different generations and personalities.
But I DO have a problem with wrong decisions. I define this as bad decisions that effect people around you. Your rights end where the next person’s begins. Your right to make bad money choices ends when you borrow money to support that lifestyle and don’t pay it back. I would even say that you don’t have the right to jeopardize your financial life at the risk of those dependent on you (like your kids). I have no sympathy. He isn’t a compulsive spender, hoarder, or sound like he exhibits signs of mental illness (Another pet peeve: ascribing bad behavior to ‘addiction’, ‘mental illness’, or something else outside a person’s area of control in order to absolve them from blame and responsibility). He is just making stupid decisions that are most comfortable at the time and paying only lip service to the consequences. He probably IS worried, but the situation is working for him. He’s getting what he wants. Until that changes, he won’t.
Your friend is like most of the people I know who declare bankruptcy, and the reason so many people around here have a hard time with it. It isn’t just bad luck that led him down this path. It was a series of lousy decisions (which he continues to make post bankruptcy, doesn’t sound like he learned anything from the situation). The bad luck very often can be overcome with prudent decisions. Once again, if you don’t judge that and see something wrong with it I am going to start questioning YOU. But as I said at the beginning: that is a completely separate issue from how to express your judgment appropriately. He isn’t receptive. So smile, wish him a good day, and never buy him lunch again.
We ALL seem to have a friend or family member like Michael (some of us are blessed with a whole mess of ’em). And we’re all frustrated. But if you don’t ‘judge’, if you don’t see anything wrong with his behavior, how would you ever help him when he’s seen the light?
1. I’m disappointed in you, JD. Wanting to use an extra 1/2 sheet of paper towel. The nerve!
2. Why not give your friend a copy of your book? 😉
3. When I come to Portland, I want you to take me to the Screen Door. Looks like my type of place. 🙂
Your story hit home for me. My brother has gone through a lot of the same issues (foreclosure, bankruptcy, etc.) in the last several years, and I loaned him $6k four years ago to help him make mortgage payments. Four years later I have seen only $300 repaid – when I begged for it – while I watch his non-working wife spend gobs of money on useless crap, rent larger than needed homes, take their kids to the circus, etc. I even watched them take a more-lavish-than-I-would-have-taken vacation. With my money.
In this situation, I do feel I have the right to cast stones, because his stupidity has affected my own finances tremendously. Your friend Michael should be ashamed of himself not paying back his family. His family members who loaned him money are also watching him and thinking the same thing. He does not really “feel so guilty” if he is not at least making an effort to pay them back.
Please tell Michael this for me, will you?
RE: Andy (#3) comment:
I think JD’s rich friend could be helping if JD’s goal is to be financially independent one day. He is just showing him how he did it. It reminds me of a parable I heard:
“The philosopher Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king. Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king you would not have to live on lentils.”Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king.”
– Anthony de Mello
@#18- well along the same lines, children are luxury expenses… maybe he should just get rid of his kids & put them up for adoption.
Don’t listen to your neighbor about the backpack vs. an old duffell, the pack will eventually save you money traveling Europe. It’ll be much easier to walk around with and take trains and busses and to avoid cab rides, which are one of the biggest and quickest wastes of money traveling.
The other year my friend met us in Paris and brought a cheap duffel he packed full. It was too cumbersome for him to carry onto the subways so he had to pay almost $100 Euro to take a cab from DeGaulle airport to meet us at the hotel when the train was about 8. Then when it was time for us to take the Erostar to London he wanted to split a cab that would have cost my wife and I 40 euro as opposed to 4 each by train. He could have bought a pack like yours for less than his added transportation costs which he could use for years instead of wasting more money on a one time expense. We traveled with a Victorinox combo backpack/ roller for 6 months we bought at REI. The zipper on an outside pouch busted before we returned and when we got back I brought it back to REI and 10 days later I received a brand new one via UPS. Sometimes it’s just better and more frugal to spend some money on quality items you intend to use regularly.
I know the pet situation is really a touchy issue, and maybe another family should be looked for to take care of the dogs until they get on there feet. It is hard to justify keeping animals when you can not afford to take care of them. That does not really do them any justice either.
The reality of it is it costs alot to take care of animals and if you don’t have the money you really can not take care of them.
The phone situation blows me away, a 11 year old? Iphone? Crazy.
You can not help these people, I have a brother who does really dumb stuff, he has never changed, I just shake my head, I know where it goes every time. It is sad and hard to watch it, and you can not get away from it since it is your family.
It just struck me that the man telling you to save a paper towel and rotten fruit owns a boat and travels to Alaska annually (right?). Some folks would think that’s not so frugal.
This is a perfect example of seeing situations from different perspectives. Yes, your friend Michael could be making much better choices, but then you saw Michael’s side of it when you were ‘scolded’ during your trip for not making choices that were in line with John’s philosophies.
On the other hand, you were making an effort by thinking ahead with the backpack and trying to conserve the paper towels. It doesn’t sound like your friend is making any attempt to save money or be frugal.
Okay, I have two dogs. I really enjoy my two dogs and they really like my husband and me. I cannot see giving them away UNLESS we hit rock bottom. The way I see it, it’s my job to stay financially stable enough to never hit rock bottom so my dogs will always have a home (and because I enjoy financial stability of course).
Michael needs to get a new mindset before any expenses like dogs or rent would even matter. If he rented the place for $500 a month and gave up his dogs, he’s just turn around and spend all the money on some other piece of consumer crap. The dogs, cell phones, and $1300 rent are just symptoms of the real problem. Michael just hasn’t admitted to himself yet that he doesn’t “deserve” news cars and $1300 places to live…until he gets it, everything else is insignificant.
As for everybody having a cow over giving away the dogs, I think JD was just trying to weigh the advantages of $500 rent to $1300 rent. If the dogs were the only things holding Michael back, he could have found them a nice home (like with JD *wink*). But, the dogs aren’t why Michael wanted a better place to live…they were just an excuse.
Great article. I loved it.
Your millionaire-next-door friend is being a jerk and needs to see a shrink in my opinion. Scrooge McDuck Syndrome; he doesn’t sound like a happy person and casting around judgement alienates his friends and makes them resentful. Misers have a bad rep for a reason. He’s missing the point of being frugal, there are limits!
Your friend in hardship will have to come around on his own it seems. He’s not there yet. Judging him will be like your friend on the boat as you pointed out, he’s going to resent you for it. All you can do is be kind and offer to provide advice when asked for it. He should be turning to you given your following here and having a PF book published and all.
Are you worried he’ll read this post and feel your judgement?
PS Fried chicken with potatoes and gravy? Aren’t you on a quest to lose 40lbs?
RE: DOGS
I feel the need to jump in here and defend JD. He didn’t say ‘dump the dogs’. He has written about his own pets often enough that I doubt he was picturing stopping on the side of the freeway and shoving them out the door. I have known people who have had drastic changes in lifestyle or finances who have had to find new homes for their pets, or who find they just aren’t up to the care the animal needs. I had to do so myself after my daughter was born and one of my cats wasn’t too happy about it and started peeing in all of her blankets. You find a situation where the animal will be safe and happy and adopt them into a new family. Animals are more resilient than some of you are giving them credit for. Animals live in the moment, if their new family is a good situation they will be fine. And it can be a good lesson to the kids to tell them “We can’t care for them properly, so we are being responsible and finding them a better situation.”
I agree with those of you that point out that the dogs aren’t the issue. They actually sound like an excuse, but I didn’t think JD’s comments were out of line.
“Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)? I’m betting they ‘love’ the owner who feeds them; do not confuse the ‘affection’ of your pet with real feelings…only humans have that capacity.”
Ever watch a dog sleep? They dream. You can see it. If a dog can dream, it can think. Even if its not like the way humans think, its still something.
Ever leave a dog with somebody for a week or 2 to go on vacation? Do that and then tell me that the reaction they have when you come home has anything to do with food. They are genuinely glad to see you. Yes, they are dependent on you for food and shelter, but that doesn’t mean they can’t love you too.
JD
I have been in your shoes many times. People who I cared for didn’t think through their decisions and paid heavily for it – financially, emotionally and physically.
You are trying to be a good friend. You want your friend to change his ways and quickly get out from under the burden of debt and get on the path to prosperity. However, it is not so easy. Bad habits are very hard to break, especially if it feels like you are moving down the ladder. And no matter how much you gnash your teeth, you are not going to help them any more than they want your help.
So, just be a good friend and ask if they need your advice. Give them just a small piece of advice and see how they use it. If they completely ignore it, you know what you should do with rest of your advice…
@ Shara, it was the phrase “get rid of” that upset many animal people. It makes them sound like so much junk you can just dump. Finding a new home for your pets sometimes becomes necessary, as in your case, but I bet you made sure it was a good one, and you don’t make a habit of “getting rid of” inconvenient dependents.
I disagree that the neighbor was being a jerk. JD admires the man, has talked to him about frugality many times, so I’m sure he thinks JD is interested in his opinion and how he would do things differently. It’s not his fault JD’s position has changed somewhat; the habit is formed.
Great post and comments. I’ll take up the Biblical theme of “casting stones” to categorize my response. Your neighbor seems to have subscribed to a pharisaical view of life–his ways of living are the law and others need to measure up. He doesn’t sound like a man with much joy. My hope in moving toward being debt-free and living better financially is that I live with more joy and hope, less fear and miserliness. This gets me to your relationship with your friend. No one can be convinced against their will. So it seems like the task will be for you to continue to live well and wait for the moments when he is curious. There will probably be a lot of sad moments in between now and when he hits bottom.
Getting rid of the dogs is certainly an option. It is in fact a legal and valid option (not like getting rid of your kids or husband/wife). Contrary to what some people think, dogs are not people and are not entitled to the same rights and protections of humans. YOUR opinion may be that a dog is part of your “family”, which is fine, but we don’t know what the author or his friend feels about dogs.
If his friend had 10 dogs, wouldn’t some of you who would condemn the author say then, “well, 10 dogs is a little high, he could get rid of one or two?” Well, my view is that two dogs and annual/monthly/daily expenses associated with them are too high for someone who has no money/bankrupt/owes his family (i.e, real people) money.
Like many who have posted, I know someone in a similar situation. It’s like trying to talk an alcoholic out of drinking, though, they have to decide it for themselves. You cannot force them to change, it must come from a genuine desire to make a better life.
I love how people who think it’s morally wrong to walk away from a mortgage think it’s perfectly acceptable to dump a living creature that depends on you for its LIFE.
Animals are way cheaper than iphones and cars, not to mention kids. To even suggest that as a solution at this point is specious. When they’ve stripped to the bone, to the point where it’s difficult to feed the kids, then maybe finding a new home for the pets is appropriate. Not now.
It seems like this article was actually letter to your friend. I bet your friend is going to read this article and respond in some way. JD, please post a follow up of your friends response.
JD– I think you’re going to have to put that second footnote in the comments and box it.
J.D., this was a fantastic article, just by the number of comments so far you can tell that you really hit home with this one.
You have great insight to recognize the parallels between your relationship with John and Michael’s relationship with you. I think that this is what’s so easy miss. It’s the idea that somehow you’re different. That your $120 REI bag may be no different from Michael’s iPhones for him and his family. That’s insight that I think most of us would have missed.
From the outside it’s so easy to just look at the information available and point at Michael and say that he’s wrong that his spending is extravagant and frivolous. But we all do some spending that’s extravagant, even John at one point in time bought a boat.
As for Michael, people won’t change unless they want to change. It’s clear that he’s shown some interest in changing, and although we from the outside may not agree with every financial decision he’s making (spending $1300 on an apartment rather than $500), it sounds like he is making steps in right direction. J.D. I think you’re doing a great job of being a patient friend, trying to guide Michael who isn’t yet at the same place in his financial journey as you are.
Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
I am perfectly happy to admit I judge all the time.
When one of my co-workers leaves the break room in a mess, while I am cleaning it up I am judging that person an insensitive clod.
When someone begins to jaywalk across seven lanes of rush-hour traffic, I am judging that person an idiot. (Really; half a block down there is a traffic signal. Saving the two minutes it would take to walk the extra distance is worth your – or someone else’s – health or life? Idiot!)
When a friend insists that she wants to completely re-do her home but won’t give up any of her non-functional furniture, I am judging her as self-deluded.
Good judgement means being able to distinguish between kind/unkind, safe/unsafe, profitable/unprofitable, generous/miserly, etc. If you say one shouldn’t make any distinctions because judging is “wrong” you are kidding yourself.
One of the things I most like about J.D. is his willingness to publish things about himself. Things we don’t all approve of.
I don’t agree that the RMND needs an analyst (come on, people), I think he’s just a tactless old man who is set in his ways. And I don’t agree that J.D. should “confront” Michael. If Michael ever really hits bottom, I’m confident that J.D. will help him – regardless of his justified feelings that Michael has brought all this on himself.
We’ll, your posts prior to this one glowed about the virtues and beauty of SE Alaska. Much much more positive a trip than the bitter preaching pill John gave you while he was in control. He was the Owner, Captain, First Mate & more while you both did what basic help he requested. Did you help pay for the fuel, morrage, insurance, maintenance, etc for the boat? Several gallons per hour cruising at Alanka fuel prices! Yes, he might have been speaking from rough times in the past, but then again, isn’t this blog all about sharing this? The old saying about if you want to really get to know someone, go on a 500 mile road trip with them. You spent a week +, so some of this was bound to come out. Is he really all that different? Did it kill your friendship? I think not..
Michael has already drowned once and has been rescued & is just now shoving away on the same path. His nose hasn’t been blooded yet, but in many ways he’s following the same path as many of us following your blog. Some get IT right away, some take a much deeper bottom. Comments 18,27,31,48,66,70&72 are really spot on & hit a chord with me. Don’t keep the light on for him JD, but stand ready to give the family a warm meal at some point – from food from the garden. Really enjoy your blog and readers. Thanks All
JD,
Why don’t you gift your friend your book?
My older sister is struggling with money right now, she tells me that money is tight and then they go and buy an new shed for the house because she didn’t like all the gardening tools in the garage. She too has read “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” and similar books, but nothing on basic personal finance.
A couple of weekends ago I was talking to her about the transformation our mother’s finance has gone through since I helped our mother start using the budget from “All Your Worth”. As we talked I noticed that my sister was interested in the budget system.
This past weekend when I saw my sister again I brought her my copy of “All Your Worth” and your book and just mentioned that she seemed interested in the budged our mom was using so I thought I would pass along the book and a new one that I really liked.
I’ll leave it up to her to read the books and to take the first step. I have a feeling my sister isn’t quite ready to make the changes she needs to, but she will have some tools available to her when she is ready.
I agree with an earlier commenter who suggested that your neighbor has probably lived alone too long.
You’ve mentioned him in several posts and he’s held up as a good example in many ways. But based on the other posts my impression is that he lives alone, never married, never had kids. I never see anything about family.
He seems gleeful at his “million” and all the ways he’s saved, but is it worth it without close family and friends? If he’s as judgmental with everyone else as he was with you, perhaps he drives people away. Would you take another week-long trip with him, based on your experience?
I may be totally off base but it’s just the impression I’m getting (and the judgment I’m making…:) ).
Great post.
Getting rid of the dogs is certainly an option. It is in fact a legal and valid option (not like getting rid of your kids or husband/wife).
Lots of things are legal. That doesn’t necessarily make them right.
Contrary to what some people think, dogs are not people and are not entitled to the same rights and protections of humans.
Lack of legal protection doesn’t make people who abuse dogs or abandon them any less horrible.
YOUR opinion may be that a dog is part of your “family”, which is fine, but we don’t know what the author or his friend feels about dogs.
One could make the argument that if the friend ditches the dogs, then he considers an ipod to be more part of the ‘family’ than the dogs. Fortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Personally, I would go homeless (or cellphoneless) before “getting rid of” my dog. They really don’t take that much money to take care of month to month. Certainly not more than a high-end cell phone.
One thing to note regarding Michael’s situation: When family is involved (a wife and kids in this case), it’s a lot harder to change spending habits if the other spouse isn’t on board. I don’t know what Michael’s wife thinks of their financial situation, but if it’s going to be a huge stress on their marriage then Michael’s going to probably choose peace. If both spouses are of the same mindset, change is much easier.
J.D. – If I recall correctly, you’ve mentioned that Kris was always a great saver. Once you decided to change, you didn’t have to change your spouse’s habits because she was already saving. This was a big advantage for you that Michael may not have right now.
I get really angry hearing people like “Michael” talk about their financial woes and still do nothing. I know some of my friends from work are jealous that I’m able to stay at home with the new baby but they seem to forget we don’t have cable, drive old cars, etc.
As for the bankruptcy, it really makes me angry to know that their reckless financial decisions affect everyone–even the innocent and responsible ones. For instance, the neighbors who are paying their mortgage but see their property value drop because of a foreclosure, the bank employees who are laid off due to so many defaulting loans, etc. I could go on all day!
JD: This isn’t about your friend or your neighbor, it’s about you.
You have to decide if you can (1) continue to hang out with Michael and listen to him complain about his financial woes without offering him constructive criticism or without his complaints driving you nuts, and (2) continue to hang out with John because the benefits of his relationship with you outweigh the frustration you feel because of his tightwad remarks.
Just remember, opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one, but most people think that everyone else’s stinks.
No one is perfect, including yourself. Once you accept the flaws in yourself, you can then accept the flaws in others. Your friend, Michael, has flaws just as you do. You need to accept the flaws in other people, and understand that everyone has some flaw. No one is perfect.
Once you accept that he simple has different flaws than you do, and the RMND also simply has different flaws than yourself, then you can being enjoying your friendship with Michael again. Be a friend first, and then offer to help, rather than judge. People dont like being judged, but often, especially when in trouble, they dont mind help.
Explain to Michael the success stories of your readers and even yourself. Let him know that there are many others who have been in his situation before, many of whom are now thriving. This would give him hope. People in his situation tend to give up, thinking that their dreams are dashed and there is no point in thinking about anything other than surviving the day.
I’m sure you remember those days. Its not until you realize that there *is* a way out that you will start on the journey. Bad things have happened to him. Get him out of his depression first, show him a way out of the maelstrom, and then offer advice.
If he still doesnt take it, dont judge, because he simply has different flaws than you, not less of them.
As for the RMND, well, he just sounds like a grumpy old man. =)
IMHO, unwanted advice, whether it’s on finances, pets, parenting, or dieting is always going to be annoying at best and offensive at worst.
JD,
This is one of the major reasons I like to read your blog. Not only do you address the personal finance issues, but you think about and address the PERSONAL issues that come along with them. It is great that you were able to look at the situation from the perspective of the one being judged, and empathize.
Regarding this situation, I think your previous statement holds true… it sounds like he is not ready to hear what really needs to be done. I don’t know how to get people ready to listen, but it doesn’t sound like he is ready to yet.
I have a friend who is much more frugal than I am, and he gets het up about people being broke and complaining about it, while still being wasteful. It’s hard on him, and I feel bad for him when it happens.
One of the cardinal rules of communication I learned, that sometimes helps, is to not try to help, but to tell what you did. If not that, maybe lend him some books you think are more appropriate than Rich Dad, Poor Dad?
I know somewhere on your blog you talk about surviving with one car that is a ‘beater’ and no savings cushion, but I wish you would rehash that. I see you over and over suggesting this, and my experience was that was a terrifying way to live, and I know at least two people who lost their jobs that way. I ended up just getting rid of my beater and going car-free for many years. What’s your secret?
(Obviously, if your friend has access to public transit for all the places _his whole family_ *needs* to go, it’s less of an issue. If you want to be helpful, you might try seeking out books and information about living a car-free lifestyle in the Portland area. When you have kids, it’s especially hard to imagine living with no car or a car that might not be completely reliable.)
Having a teenager will toughen you up when your friends dont take your advice. To combat being constantly cranky, I laugh/commiserate with other parents of teenagers.
Just curious, am I the only one here who has a hard time being friends with someone I don’t respect? I don’t mean friendly or polite. But the less I respect someone the looser my association with the person becomes, and the less we seem to have in common.
Like lots of folks have said, Michael may just not be ready to hear the advice you have to offer.
Then again, maybe it *is* instructive to look at your reaction to comments made by your neighbor–and apply that to your interactions with Michael. Your neighbor’s comments may have annoyed you because they didn’t take into account where *you* are, they just reflected his point of view.
Think about Michael’s current comfort zone and offer some suggestions that might move him closer to solid financial ground–while respecting where he is right now.
For example: It’s awesome that you located a place for him to rent that is so cheap. At the same time, you yourself said it wasn’t anyplace you’d suggest he stay for a long time. So it could look like such a drastic change to Michael that he and his family aren’t willing to consider it.
Maybe you could focus your effort on offering options that are a little bit more affordable but don’t represent that drastic change. If he’s looking at a $1300 house, and you know of plenty of places that go for $1100/month, why not turn him on to the $1100/month places (or even a $1000/month place!) that will feel comfortable to him and his family, instead of the $500/month place?
Instead of getting annoyed because he’s not willing to go carless, or to deal with the unpredictable pain-in-the-butt factor of a true beater car, what about giving him the heads-up on which cars are really good buys in the gently-used category?
I suspect there’s lots of useful info you could impart that might be helpful for him to hear–and that might be close enough to his current comfort zone that he’d actually *hear* it.
And oh yeah, there’s nothing wrong with talking about your own choices as an example; just try to frame it so it resonates with his current level of financial intelligence. Like, don’t focus just on how you saved up the cash to buy your Mini. Talk about how you weren’t comfortable with the thought of buying a used car… until you bought your Mini used, which turned out to be a great decision because you love the car *and* you got a deal on it. (Unspoken message: yes, save $ for the car before you buy it, but more important, used cars aren’t icky.)
JD,
Outside of the any additional comments related to your friend, I would very interested in understanding your dislike of the Rich Dad series.
I have seen many points/comments related to what a scam the seminars are, but I found that at least the book’s approach to focusing on cash flow investing and balance sheets an interesting. Of course, the “you can be rich” aspect of the book I simply viewed as marketing spin.
thanks for your efforts on the website which is is rapidly becoming a daily read of mine.
Eric
I don’t think I’d give Michael a copy of your book, but a copy of something that you read when you were starting out. I get frustrated with my boyfriend sometimes because although he’s paying off his debts, he’s willing to push back his payoff date sometimes to get something he wants now. I’m just not that way but I am glad I have him to make me stop and think – sometimes things ARE worth it.
I second what others have said about dirty napkins around your mouth and moldy fruit being dangerous. The only thing you can cut mold off of and still eat is cheese. Everything else, you should throw away not just the moldy piece, but every other piece of fruit that it touched.
I don’t think people should get rid of pets either, but maybe just by suggesting it JD could get Michael to look at things a different way. “Oh, you’re not willing to give up the dogs? What ARE you going to give up?” In a way Michael’s in a worse spot than JD was, because JD had to learn frugality when he paid off his debt, while Michael may not have any debt because he declared bankruptcy and discharged it all. At least he can’t buy a new house – and really, he probably won’t be able to finance a new car either because his credit will be terrible. He probably just doesn’t realize that yet because he hasn’t tried.
I don’t have time to read all the comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating.
First, didn’t your millionaire friend just treat you to a trip on his boat? That’s incredibly generous.
Second, does your friend in financial straits read your blog? Did I miss it–did you ask him if you could write about his woes?
@Shara. Some people are quite lovely if they just don’t talk about certain subjects. Like… I never talk about religion or politics in some places I’ve lived.
WRT wealthy southern Californian whining… they are not people I would seek out for friendship, but are often included in groups with which one socializes. Sometimes they have quite lovely children. The whining is why we are not friends, even if our children are.
I think there’s probably a reason that etiquette suggests not discussing financial matters.
I used to be like Michael but there is now a fundamental difference between the two of us ~ I hit rock bottom and he hasn’t.
I don’t think you are ‘judging’ him. He asked you for your advice, you gave it to him. He seemed to balk at everything you said. You can’t help him, he can only help himself. This isn’t a judgement, it’s an observation. You both live very different lives, yours has help you keep your sanity and given you a calmness about your life. His is obviously very chaotic and although he truly believes that the ‘gods’ are against him, he is a product of his own making. He’s an attention grabber. First with ‘flashy’ stuff and now when he can no longer have the glitz he is playing your card by claiming that he wants to change, because he wants your sympathy, he wants your attention. Don’t feel bad, accept it for what it is, who he is. Be a friend, but let him be and when he stumbles and falls don’t pick him back up, let him do it himself.
As for your boating trip, are you sure my mother wasn’t there?…
I was going to scold you about the dogs then I looked at my Golden Retriever. It would take a helluva lot to get my dog away from me, but then I thought about his situation before we got him. We adopted him after our older Golden died last year. Niles (the new dog) was an owner surrender. The story I was told is that the old owners had to downsize into an apartment that had no yard and was near a busy street. They gave him to the local Golden Retriever rescue and we adopted him. I know how heart wrenching it much have been for them to give up Niles. But they did the absolute best for him and probably for themselves, too, by giving him to the rescue. Niles is in great hands now and in better health now, too (it’s amazing what high quality pet food can do for a dog).
So I can’t scold you for suggesting they get rid of their dogs. It’s one of the last things I would ever consider doing, but there are ways to get rid of them that are beneficial to the pet and the family.
I have no doubt Niles is in a better home for him right now and I’d be willing to bet his previous owners are thankful not to have the costs associated with feeding and caring for a 100lb dog.
@#123 Shara
Right on! We were very good friends with a married couple our age until we A) had kids and B) changed jobs and had to get frugal. Now I simply don’t have anything in common with them because I don’t like shopping for ‘fun’ anymore, and I don’t spend money I don’t have trying to look like someone I’m not. They both work, and manage their debt, but there sure is a lot of it–and massive student loans haven’t even kicked in yet.
I often find myself judging them behind their backs…which I am definitely not proud of. I wish I was brave enough to bring up that financial conversation with them, but I was always too chicken to open that can of worms. Sadly, the friendship has just drifted away. Whether that is a result of my recent disdain for their consumer driven lifestyle, or just a lack of things in common, I don’t know.
This one is a tough one cause you want to help your friend but at the same time you don’t want to be the “nagging” friend that always offers financial advice. It’s like when you were young your parents would tell you something over and over again and you would hear them but you weren’t really listening. I think your friend has to hit rock bottom in order for him to change his spending ways. He’s obviously not ready so it’s hard to help someone when they are not ready (just like any addict). Just be there for him and remind him that you were once there so you know how he feels and keep on reminding him that’s it’s possible to change. Tell him to subscribe to your blog too!!
Glad to see you’ll be working on something related to pets. I’ve had the same cats from when I was financially irresponsible to financially responsible and honestly, I couldn’t imagine my life without them. They, like my general community, family and friends, are a huge part of my emotional well-being. (And uh, yeah, most socialized pets like more people than just the people who feed them so…I’m not sure what animals you’re meeting, Holly, unless they just don’t like you – which should tell you something!) 😛
*************
1 thing about processing good advice –
I do recall reading about personal finance methods and having subaccounts for categories that regularly pop up (taxes, car trouble, replacement items, modest day-trip vacations, etc.) and I recall thinking, “Is this woman insane?”
It wasn’t until I had a budget going for a few years and I’d worked to pay off most of my debt that the idea resonated with me.
I actually have a subaccount FOR my PETS now, instead of pet insurance. I figured for the number of cats I have, with the age they are, and the ltd usage of some basic pet insurances, I’d be better going with saving $100+/month and using the compounding interest to put us in the best position. Even with 2 house calls and a hospitalization and using a good $3k out of that account, I still have over $8k saved for my cats’ vetting (in addition to my $10-15k emergency fund, and a separate One Day/Downpayment Fund).
So yeah, I was there also and I made so many stupid mistakes after that – I recall buying $200 worth of clothing at Target of all places (against my rent money) and ripping off all the tags as soon as I got home so I COULDN’T return them, out of spite. I would judge then-me now, though!
I think judging is natural and also informs how we relate to people with that topic (I’d be less likely to offer treating my friend if I knew this was their financial life because I wouldn’t want to enable). But empathy is also important.
KC – that’s a reality for a small margin of homeless pets in the US but a wonderful story – I wish that was the reality for them all!
There is an enormous difference between Michael compared to you and you compared to your neighbor.
Michael is irresponsible with other peoples’ money and he has a very low self-discipline as he apparently wants to be more frugal but can’t control his urges. I guess that judging others rarely is a good idea but you do have good reasons to judge Michael for not living up to some very basic standards of human behavior.
He is dragging himself more and more down like a drug addict or an alcoholic, and he seems to be dragging you down with him. He must be a very good friend since you still associate with him. I hope he will change some day but it seems unlikely.
I’d suggest that you chose one of three options:
– Completely ignore the subject of money when he is around and talk about whatever else that you usually talk about
– Tell him openly what you think and offer to help and coach him
– Find other friends
You, on the other hand, are only being “wasteful” with your own money. You stay within your means and what you buy is entirely up to you (and your wife). Unless you told your neighbor that you want to be like him, he is simply judging you for not living up to HIS standards and that is IMO respectless. Perhaps you don’t want to live like him, perhaps you DO want to save less and spend more than he does. What is wrong with that? You’re not hurting anyone by making a conscious decision to buy another book.
J.D., this was a great post and probably very difficult to write. But I’m so glad you did.
I think you know on some level that you cannot help him. You can offer advice, free books and an example to live by, but you can’t help him unless he wants to help himself. It’s sad, but it’s true. We are born with free will, and it can be our downfall.
I have a similar situation with a friend. The combination of a bad economy, a bankrupt company and his own spending habits got him there. I’m sad for his situation, but I know this is something he has to work out for himself. The lessons he has to learn cannot be taught by any other means than experience.
Your friend probably has farther to fall before he really hits rock bottom. If you think it’s ugly now, it will just get worse. I’ve seen it happen before.
I admire your desire to be a friend to this man. That says a lot about you as a person. Your actions speak louder than words.
John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
Well, for starters, a heavy and unbalanced bag can cause serious back problems if you’re planning to carry it while traveling extensively. Is saving $120 worth the possibility of years of back problems?
As you’ve pointed out many times, JD, frugality is about making choices to use your available resources in ways that that make you happy. For most of us that means taking care of the future and having some fun along the way. Some of John’s behaviors aren’t frugal, they’re health hazards.
I have been a pet sitter and have been a pet owner for most of my life. But give me a break. The commenters who are saying that you make a commitment to the dogs are being unrealistic. People need to keep their commitments to other people first, which includes taking care of yourself financially, your family financially, and being able to make sure that you can take care of bills and other financial responsibilities before bringing animals into the mix. Millions of people who own pets shouldn’t even have them. It’s very sad that many of these relinquished pets have been euthanized, but it’s always possible to drop the animals off at a rescue or no-kill shelter. It’s insane to me that people who obviously read this post are still saying it’s a bad idea to give the dogs away. Hello! This guy barely has it together. It’s not the dogs’ fault, but he has to take care of himself first and foremost.
I’m thinking about this a lot today (probably because I have an issue with judging people)…
I wonder if a simple comment to Michael such as “come talk to me when you’re really ready to make a change, and I’ll show you some of the strategies I used” would work? It could pique his interest by you reading into the situation that he’s “not really ready yet” and also show him you’re willing to help. Slightly judgmental, yes, but it puts the onus back on him.
I’ve a friend who does have this problem, he knows that he has a problem but he doesn’t want to change. Hours of discussion and nothing changed, he even disliked sitting with me because of my way trying to convince him. Believe me, it isn’t worth it.
You did your job giving him advice, then the rest is up to him not you, until he change his habits, you need to learn this lesson clearly :
” God created people to be different, Why ?
Because if all people were good and have the best jobs around, no one would clean the floor then .. right ? ”
People like him are there because there are successful people too.
Thanks
Michael is a spendthrift and John is a miser.
There is a happy and rational medium in between the two extremes.
Comments about John
Point 2 (paper towels): If it’s best to start with cloth towels, why not just start with cloth to begin with?
Point 3 (orange): NO. Just because a part isn’t visibly moldly doesn’t mean the germs haven’t already spread out to it. It’s similar to the potato salad that’s been out too long: it looks OK, but eating it will make you sick to your stomach.
Dan @ 53: Love the very apt Carlin reference!
I agree that we naturally judge. We could not navigate through our complicated world without almost constantly making value judgments.
I also agree that few people want advice, and almost none want unsolicited advice.
Even if a friend says they want advice or help, they may not. All they may really want is the illusion that they’re doing something productive merely by asking for advice.
Agh my brohter does this to me and I just want to shake him! (with big sister love ofcoarse) He ALONE makes 3x what we make as a family but he is always broke. I’ve tried. But his classification of ‘wants’ vs ‘needs'(2 dvd players in the car-and only one child. ‘But we’re palnning on having another’ he said…) is out of wack and until he gets that straight there is nobody in the world that can help.
Oh man, I just ate at the Screen Door on Memorial Day – outstanding! Glad you enjoyed your meal!
It’s such a fine line. We have friends who spend lavishly, and usually on credit, yet they have serious money troubles. (Or rather, they DID, but rolled their debt into their mortgage. Now they think their troubles are over, but it’s still debt, just being paid out over a much longer period of time.) The husband refuses to go on a budget because it might ruin his fun. Seriously. His wife told me that! I did lend them a PF book at one point, which the wife read. They tried a budget… for a month. I guess I should feel glad for them that they tried, if briefly?
Or the kid whose parents haven’t been able to afford the cost of youth camp any of the years he’s gone. The church pays for him. However, they travel a lot and spend a ton on their other kid’s sport. When their kid is excitedly telling us about his new guitar amp, it’s hard NOT to judge. However, I have to remind myself that I don’t know how or where he got the amp. Maybe it’s used. Maybe the kid has been mowing lawns and bought it with his own money. I don’t know, so I can’t dwell on it.
I learned a while ago that I can’t take on my friends’ problems. I used to worry about the friends I mentioned above. It would eat me up, then I finally came to the realization that the problem is theirs. I can’t fix it; it’s not my responsibility to fix it. They can do what they want, as long as it’s not affecting me. That was very freeing when I finally came to that conclusion. But I still have a hard time not shaking my head at their stupid financial decisions.
It seems to me that John does not understand the distinction between criticism and *constructive* criticism.
Also, I feel like JD is getting chastised needlessly for the pet issue. He said it in an off-hand way that detracts from his point, which is that having two dogs is not valid justification for spending an extra $800 PER MONTH on an apartment.
This is a very interesting read, and no you shouldn’t judge anyone, but he’s made terrible decisions & hasn’t learned anything! Whereas the small things that you “splurged” on were made into a much bigger deal by your buddy. Get rid of that guy! **sidenote-the first thing I thought to get rid of were the dogs; I mean sure they’re cute and cuddly, but they are also an unnecessary expense! (Suck it up animal Lovers).
Great post. Reminds me of my best friend. She is in a horrible mess and sinking further every day. I kind of just listen, but the other day she showed me her new Coach purse. She said she needed something BUT for the first time she bought it at the outlet mall to save. Guess some take small steps. (Ok,I’ll confess, at the time I was thinking to myself “Goodwill” is where she should have shopped!)
Look, if you (this “you” is all encompassing)feel bad about being judged than it’s because you honestly concur with the person judging and know that you are not doing your best. But if you feel angry or apathetic than you feel that you are doing your best and should either ignore them or tell them where they can put their judgement. I think judgement is a good thing (exceptions: racism, sexism, fear of other cultures, etc.). It makes people re-evaluate “Am I doing my best? Should I change myself?” And sometimes the answer is that you are in fact doing all you can and you’re good with yourself. So, let people go right on judging. If you’re good with yourself than you have nothing to feel bad about and you can either tell them so or ignore it. In the case of your friend, I would definitely be honest–not preachy, just compassionately honest. If he feels judged (which as we all know is an uncomfortable feeling because it encourages the ever-dreaded self-evaluation that may uncover some soiled spots on our being) than he will either re-evaluate (yay!) or think he’s doing OK (boo!). But at least you tried to help.
I think it is o.k. to judge Michael because he provided the information you are judging. You have a personal finance blog and published book on the subject…why would he share this information with you if he didn’t want to open up about his finances? I think many people here have it right. Approach the subject, maybe a nice email, explaining how you were once in the same position and can offer some guidance if he would like it. If he doesn’t want your help, he’s probably like the millions of people who feel ENTITLED to the life the advertisers/marketers are selling them – whether or not they can afford it. Michael may never get it but I’m glad – through the help of your blog – that I have!
I’m new to this blog, but have already made it my home page! I have just recently begun to look hard at my finances, change my spending behaviors, and am now starting to put money away every month. Though I was never as deep in debt as your friend, I do have to say that the book that really made me look hard at my financial life was Rich Dad, Poor Dad. We had it on the shelf for years, and I finally picked it up. Though I can see through some of it, I have to say it did make me shift my perspective. I don’t view it as a to-do book, but it got me interested in reading more about personal finance, which led me here, and to the book list you mentioned. This seems to be the case for several other readers as well. Yes, Kiyosaki is a salesman first, but if it helps change the way we think about money, that’s a valid start, no? And David Bach? Thoughts?
It’s hard to see people you care about make what you think are bad choices, but it’s their life, not yours. Ultimately those choices have nothing to do with you.
Your friend John sounds kind of naggy. I know he would get on my nerves at least. 😛
JD, I LOVE columns that focus on real-life people and their lives…positive and negative. Please do more of these!
There are plenty of Michaels in the world. Hopefully the current financial situation is influencing more than a few to change. Hopefully your friend will get the message, too, before he hits total rock-bottom.
Brother and I grew up on a farm, with little money. We started out working early, and helped pay our way through college. (Getting grants and scholarships helped.) We couldn’t do a ‘Michael’ if our lives depended on it.
I almost wonder if I know your friend. The person I know does all the same stuff and always says he’s going to change and do better but never does. I always wonder what the heck is going on in people’s minds. Who do they think they’re fooling? I don’t have an iPhone yet the guy I know has one for himself and his wife, his young kids have cell phones, and he lost his house in foreclosure.
I’m currently in a very similar situation with some close friends. They just recently declared bankruptcy after a series of bad financial decisions that left them broke with no way to dig out.
I want to help my friends, point them in the right direction, help them put together a budget, etc, but every time that sort of thing is even mentioned, their eyes just glaze over. They don’t seem to want to change.
A few weeks after declaring bankruptcy, what do my friends do? They go on a week long vacation to the Disney Theme Parks in Orlando, Fl. When they got back they told us about all the things that they had done, and then proceeded to show us the hundreds of dollars in souvenirs they had bought at the gift shops.
Sometimes people would rather live with their head in the sand, and even bankruptcy isn’t truly rock bottom. Living in debt and on the edge seems normal, and our society is making it seem more and more acceptable with every passing year. *sigh.
@ Melissa A., yes, John definitely sounds a bit naggy – but I would put up with quite a bit for a week on someone’s boat!
Every single person on earth judges and anyone who sits up here and pretends that they dont..ask yourself this: How do you feel about people who judge? lol (You’ll get that in an hour or two)
I agree with the commenters who said that its cirumstantial in regards to how your apply your judgement. If your friend is asking for help or you can see that they really need help but don’t know how to ask for it, then a good friend WILL help them out of their situation without regard for loss of friendship. If your neighbor is forcing his views on you and you arent in dire financial straights and you’re happy then thats a whole other beast…
http://ThisIsWhyUBroke.com
“Because planning to be a Walmart greeter is not exactly retirement planning”
I feel free to make suggestions if people are complaining to me about money. However, if they are not, then I keep my mouth shut. It sounds to me like that is the difference between the situation between you and your neighbor and the situation between you and Michael.
Eh, your neighbor is great guy, but has slightly different standards and needs than you. He points things out because he wants to demonstate how he got where he was. I get this from my depression era in laws and parents who mean well. They made a lot of sacrifices in ways I’ll never understand to have the comfortable retirement they have now. I think your neighbor wanted to convey this in the only way he knew how. Thank your neighbor for the experience and ignore the minor criticisms.
I’ve started to make the sacrifices myself and it is hard to to see people take things for granted
With your friend, you went above and beyond and he knows you’re a resource. He hasn’t woken up yet.
Here is a possibility with the house:
With a kid, perhaps there was a good school to go to or if he lived in a different area of town he might have to switch schools, which would be tough right after moving. Although if I were in his situation I would probably still have to consider it.
But the phones? Unforgivable.
Okay, I know we’re not supposed to be talking about the remark about the dogs, but that’s like saying, “Don’t think about pink elephants.” I was even nice to the couple who spent $30K on their pet with cancer.
HOWEVER.
Animals ARE a commitment, but finding a good home for a pet is not “cruel.” If you cannot afford to keep an animal (note that homeless people don’t have to pay pet rents or deposits) in a way you feel comfortable, by all means GET RID OF THE PET. Yes, I said “GET RID OF”, I am so callous, I cannot believe that I, who have rescued countless animals and headed up the spay, neuter and return program for my neighborhood would be so incredibly cruel, but there it is.
People die. Pets die. This is the cycle of life. Keeping a pet you cannot afford is, in my opinion, more cruel than giving the animal a good home. We do not condone families who keep too many children in squalid conditions — no, we remove those children. If you equate humans with animals (not as less OR more) then a family who has a pet they cannot afford has a moral responsibility to find a good home for that pet. THAT INCLUDES “FREE TO GOOD HOME” ADS ON CRAIGSLIST.
Talk about judging! In an article about throwing stones, a lot of people dinged JD on being irritated with his irresponsible friend, yet turned around and left scathing remarks about his suggestion to re-home an animal.
I love animals, have sacrificed for animals, have volunteered to care for them, clean cages, even trimmed poop-incrusted burrs from strays, but animals have needs that are DIFFERENT from humans. Indeed, some animals cannot exist with a single owner — desert turtles and many kinds of birds MUST have multiple owners, because their lifespan is greater than ours.
I’m sorry for the rant, JD, but I’m sick of all this judgmental crap about animals. I’d like both sides — the “I can’t believe they spent that on an animal” side and the “Adopting an animal is a lifelong contract” side” — to shut up and head to the nearest shelter, adopt an animal and never talk about it again.
This is what I like about you JD
You’re slow to act…in a good way. I would have probably just jumped out and said something nasty that would have hurt my friend & our friendship. I like the fact that you take the time to not only examine what’s going on in your friends life, but in yours as well =)
Hi there, JD,
I’ve been a regular reader for years now. I keep track of my expenses better and cut down many of my costs, thanks to this blog. Really, a big thank you. (I still spend more than my steady income so I still need to do freelance jobs. But I’m on my way.)
So I feel a bit with your friend because it’s really hard to change one’s lifestyle and it takes time. OTOH I know it’s doable, but I doubt any of your advice will work for him, as he doesn’t seem yet to be ready for it.
Give him your book, pat his shoulder and let him work it out himself…
@ Raina – “It’s very sad that many of these relinquished pets have been euthanized, but it’s always possible to drop the animals off at a rescue or no-kill shelter. ” Just FYI, I think that depends on the area. I used to run a rescue nfp for 5 years and work at a national animal welfare agency now and I can assure you nationally not everyone has that option, although I wish they did. A lot of times it’s a kill shelter only and I’ve worked with rescuers who feel like crap that their home is filled with foster animals, they can’t afford to foster any more and their options are either the kill-shelter or stay on the street because all the smaller or bricks-and-mortar no-kill groups are full to capacity (limited intake is how they usually remain a “no-kill”).
@ Missy – I think would agree with you – while I consider MY adoptions hopefully a lifetime agreement, I know that’s not always possible. I think the issue here is that this person has so much “fat” to cut and has not expressed any interest in getting rid of his pets, and suggested through commentary that he was hoping to accommodate them – why suggest something that touchy, with no disclaimer?
I’m sure JD didn’t mean it as a flame-attractor but I have to admit when I saw the comment I thought, “Wow, that’s 200 comments in the making!”
I was telling some family members about the dangers of their spending habits months ago. I must have said it the right way, because they are now asking me for help, and they take the truth from me pretty seriously. I hope that in the next stage, they are actually financially healthy, and they can share their financial insights with me. We will see, there is a lot of time ahead of them, and I’ve already spent a lot of energy focusing on this.
Well, obviously tons of thoughts here, so I’ll just be brief. JD, in this case, you are an expert. Now, that doesn’t give you any right to start demanding things from this guy, but if he’s really wanting help, you are a wonderful choice for giving advice. The worst form of “judging” like this is when it comes from someone who has no credibility.
Like another poster wrote, you should give him a copy of your book. . .or, more likely, you have and yet he won’t read it.
Regardless, you must maintain boundaries. I am the pastor of a church and as such, I have worked with people for years. I am not even close to the typical mindset of a pastor; in fact some get mad because I DO NOT give out much advice in these situations. Oh, trust me, I can talk (look how long my short post has become) and I will advise people all the time, but I keep boundaries. Once it is clear that a person isn’t really interested in proper help (3 iPhones?? Please!!!), then I just back off.
By the way, Joshua Wheeler (#79 above) nailed it relative to judgment. Well said, friend–well said.
I haven’t read through all the comments yet, so forgive me if this has been said already, but your neighbor doesn’t have the right to impose his choices on you, nor make you feel guilty for doing so. I’m sure there are people he’s met who think he wastes money by owning a home and not living in a tiny studio apartment and dumpster diving for his meals (I’ve talked to these people).
I’ve had people tell me proudly that no one needs a better car than theirs while looking at my Mercedes, and then go on to tell me about all the timeshares they’ve picked up on the cheap, while I’m thinking I’d never come out ahead paying all the thousands of dollars in maintenance/fees associated with timeshares.
I think it’s really a matter of people wanting justification for the choices they make, whether it’s your bankrupt iPhone friend or your eat-around-the-mold-on-the-orange friend. If you’re not already doing exactly what they do (instant justification), they have to get you to accept their choices some other way. By the way, I do cut around the mold on cheese and eat the good part, and cut around apples, but I don’t think even I could eat a partially rotten orange.
Part of a lasting relationship involves understanding what it’s like to be in the other person’s shoes and respecting their self-determination, even if they choose to do some foolish things or ignore your advice, even when solicited. I don’t know about iPhone Friend, but Rotten Orange Man sounds like he’s a bit lonely and I can see why.
I think iPhone Friend will appreciate your patience and respect for him in the long run, even if he never gets his financial house in order and continues to say, “Wow, I wish I could be like you.”
Finally, I rarely have rotten fruit around, as I buy just what I need because it kills me to throw it away, but in case I do, may I send it to you to give to your neighbor?
Thanks for the great article, J.D. I think it really hits on what I think is one of the most important (and most overlooked) parts of money–the emotional and social problems that can sometimes come along with it.
This article really hit home because the situation you described with your friend really parallels that of my mother. Currently, she’s 55 years old, and gets about $1,100 of spousal support from my father. Keep in mind my parents have been very messily divorcing each other for 7 years now, in which time they have spent over $300,000 on lawyer fees. Unfortunately for me and my younger brother, this leaves us both in trouble for college (I might not be able to finish my last two years at Lewis & Clark College, and my brother’s choices will probably be very limited due to a lack of money). Yet my mom STILL spends in the same way she did before her income was so drastically reduced. I encouraged her to check out foods banks, to NOT shop at Whole Foods for a month and try a grocery outlet, to cut off the cable, but she just isn’t ready to hear the message, as you said in the article.
The worst part of the situation is that it doesn’t seem as though it will change any time soon, and there’s no way to make my advice heard. Yet I can’t help but think that, at 20 years old, I have some valuable information that she could really use.
Do you know of any tips for talking with those close to you (friends or family) about issues like these when they become a serious problem? I don’t want to feel the pressure of having to support my mother while barely scraping by myself, and I do’t want to feel the guilt from letting her deal with her problems on her own because she’s family.
“Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)?”
That’s really a false dichotomy, since humans also develop Pavlovian responses to repeated stimuli, and they also think, feel, and love. That these things are mutually exclusive is a false assumption.
Aren’t we always judging what we see? Isn’t that what the human mind does? It’s just when you choose to vocalize the judgment and when you hold it in that make the difference, and how you go about it. I don’t see the point of holding back some serious advice from a friend who’s seriously in trouble (is he your friend or not!?). I generally point out stupid things I’ve done so the other person doesn’t feel like they’re the only one making mistakes. The difference with the neighbor is that all he had to complain about were little things – but those little things had, nonetheless, made him a millionaire when taken altogether. That’s just mildly irritating, but the bankruptcy friend sounds like he needs a good talking to – or else no more free lunches 😛 (P.S. I used to cut mold out of foods until I learned that the mold spores go a lot deeper than you can see, so you’re better off chucking it.)
You may not judge. Ever.
However I think there is less stress and teeth gnashing when you are not putting yourself out to give assistance.
No need to feel you should pay for dinner, if he can pay for smart phone plans times three then he can buy himself a meal.
No need to spend your valuable time looking for something like cheap housing – he’s not interested one tiny bit.
The list should be longer – you know more than I what you might or might consider doing – but it will bother you less.
Of course I’ve got one of those friends too – so that’s how I know LOL.
One side note? If you have kids and dogs – giving away a dog is really not much of an option. Even if you found a wonderful home I can guarantee I’d have to be really close to the bone to give up the family pet – the kids would feel so unstable in a situation like that I shudder to think of it.
JD – ever think about offering to foster his dogs for him?
“It takes what it takes.” That is a common saying among people in rehab and intervention programs. You can rarely talk people into seeing things you’re way and realizing the destructive path they’re on until they are ready to listen and realize the path they are on is hopeless. It doesn’t sound like your friend is ready to listen. If he ask for your opinion or advice be frank and honest and speak of your experiences, but don’t expect to gain a GRS convert.
Regarding your neighbor and your trip, it isn’t a fair comparison. You have put your financial house in order so to speak. Your neighbor was inflicting his life style of frugality on you, hoping that you would buy in or recognize its value. Obviously you don’t see the need (nor do I) and will choose to live your life differently. Unless of course life takes you to a point where you decide that’s what it will take. . . . . .
Some people find that just admitting they have a problem is the solution.
They won’t take any further steps to correct their situation(s). In their minds they “tried” simply because they spoke about it.
I hope this isn’t the case with your friend, though.
Aren’t vacations supposed to be fun, relaxing and restorative? You should not come home feeling badly about yourself and every little choice you made. What kind of friend judges and criticizes for not using half a paper towel long enough? Please. Your friend is ridiculous, and I would never travel with him again. Maybe Michael would like to hang out on the boat. Now THAT would be hysterical.
I used to be a weight loss counselor. People would tell me they wanted to lose weight, but were unwilling to do anything it would take to accomplish that goal, i.e., give up sweets, exercise, etc. Still, they would complain about all the reasons they couldn’t lose. Just because a friend asks your advice doesn’t mean they have to take it. If it bothers you that they ask your advice and then don’t use it, then refuse to give advice. Maybe he just likes having someone to talk to. Not everyone wants their problems solved. I think if we’re bothered that much by someone’s behavior, maybe it’s time to limit our involvement with that person. As far as your other “friend,” I would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation and probably would not want to spend a lot of time with him, if any. His behavior seems a little over the top to me. If you can afford your purchases, then you are entitled to them, period. Still, it was a good lesson for you in how your #1 friend might feel about your judging him.
A friend was using the Ponzi scheme to pay off his credit cards. $100,000 credit card debt eventually was resettled to $25,000, which he paid off.
Now that he’s making more money, he went and bought a new car. He wanted a Denali but got something similar. He said his payments are under $500/month.
I watch how he fritters away money, and I keep quiet. When we’re in a bar, he orders the most expensive drink and tells me he’ll pay me back. Never happens.
Maybe this isn’t a good friendship.
This is what I would say about judging others: You unconsciously make judgments all the time and don’t give it a second thought. It’s called instinct. Judging others and situations helps keep us safe.
When we make a judgment and then feel guilty about it, it could be that we see something in another person that we don’t want ourselves to become (or already think we are). It is more of the shame we feel about ourselves and our own situation than it is a true “judgment” of the other person.
J.D., I think you feel guilty for recognizing that your friend hasn’t learned anything because you fear that you haven’t learned anything (which is why your neighbor’s well-meaning comments stung you).
Just look at your friend for who he is now, not who he was or could be. Is this someone who mirrors your beliefs and goals? Is it someone you would feel comfortable sharing success with? If not, maybe it is time to move on.
Adopting a dog is making a life long commitment. They are intelligent family animals who usually do not recover from being abandoned. Further, suggesting the friend dump the dogs encourages the kind of unresponsible behavior you supposedly are advocating against. Moreover, it is just mean.
Since my dog is helpless in the world without me and I voluntarily took on the responsibility of caring for her, I would feed my dog before I fed myself. There are plenty of low cost rental places that except dogs. I spend almost nothing feeding my dog, as she eats what I eat.
The difference between you and Michael is that you have money and he doesn’t. You don’t have debt, you make wise choices in regards to how you spend your money and you have savings. He has none of those things. As for the real millionaire – the beauty of being frugal is to save money in certain areas so that you can spend in others. For instance we pinch and save everywhere we can so we can pay for expensive gymnastics training for my daughter. Many people probably think we are crazy. As long as we aren’t going into debt to do this everything is fine.
There is a major difference between Michael’s situation and yours. Michael is being reckless, and his decisions cause financial and emotional strain on those around him.
You, on the other hand, are being practical. “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?” What the heck is wrong with a $120 backpack from REI? Maybe you didn’t think through all of your options, but you clearly reasoned that you would get continued use out of it and decided that it was worth it to you. It’s not leading you to financial ruin. Your friend John doesn’t sound like much fun to hang out with.
Let’s have some perspective here. Yes, there’s more to life than spending money, but there’s also more to life than pinching every penny. Sometimes I wonder if that’s all this blog is about.
I think it’s human nature to judge others, but we don’t have to express that judgment to them. You experienced your friend John expressing his judgment of you. How did it make you feel? Did it give you any sort of desire to make life changes, or did it just make you resent John? I suspect the latter. Your friend Michael clearly isn’t ready to ask for help. You can still offer it, but odds are he’s not ready to accept it either. Further, if in offering it, you let him know you’re judging him, you probably guarantee he won’t feel comfortable coming to you if/when he is ready to ask for and accept help. I would suggest simply emailing Michael a lot of blog posts (preferably not yours so he won’t see this one) about financial strategies more suited to his current life situation than Rich Dad Poor Dad.
When we truly embrace the idea of living frugally and realize just how much we don’t need, it’s like a huge financial burden is lifted from our shoulders. Once this change comes over us, we find it difficult not to hurt for people who just don’t get it yet. Michael is one of those people. We don’t need to judge him. However, I for one can’t help feeling sorry for the misfortunes that he could avoid. In turn someone like John, who has learned to be even more frugal, may look on me with the same pity 🙂
I think the most important thing to remember is to not loan him any money!
Rather than talking about what is going wrong, I’d like to offer a suggestion:
I would completely ignore any behavior you feel is unhealthy on his part. If he comments on his new iPhone, you could say “Oh, that’s nice…” and change the subject instead of making a negative or judgmental remark. He’ll get the hint. Instead, invite him to participate in a free exercise activity with you. Maybe ask him to be your running or hiking buddy. There’s something about exercise that feeds your soul – and it sounds like his soul is hurting. It also might reduce his anxiety enough to slow down and appreciate all the wonderful parts of life that don’t cost anything (indeed, the most wonderful things almost never do). And that might help him make some changes.
JD, I know you would prefer we all save our pet comments for Friday’s post, but I’m bringing this up here because I legitimately hope you address these issues in your post…
I think I understand what you were trying to say in your post – that if he’s legitimately paying $800 more per month to rent a place because of the dogs it may be time to find another home for them. I get that. BUT…
If a person places their pet in someone else’s home, that is one less animal adopted out of a shelter (assuming the family who takes the pet would have gone to the shelter). In essence, giving your pet away may save your pet’s life, but it almost certainly condemns an animal in a shelter to death. And that’s not right. Millions of animals are euthanized every year.
And to the person who said the pets should be taken to no kill shelters, MANY people do not have that option. The nearest three shelters to my home are kill shelters.
I’ve personally gone without eating so I could afford my cat’s food before. I took on their care when I adopted them, the same way I would have if I adopted children. Michael obviously has MANY issues beyond his pets. He could cut out the expensive rent, the iPhones, cable, etc. before he cut his pets from his life. Obviously, if it’s down to, “Well, either the pets can eat this week or the kids can,” I think he should put the needs of his children first. But he shouldn’t consider “getting rid of” the dogs until he absolutely has to.
I hope you also address how relatively cheap a healthy pet is to care for. My cats (I have two.) cost about $80 a year in vet bills. Their food is $13 a month, along with $10 for cat litter. You can donate plasma every two weeks and have enough to take care of two cats. I know dogs are quite a bit more expensive, but we shouldn’t misrepresent how inexpensive pets are compared to our luxuries.
I learned when I moved away from home that there is a line between complaining and whining. Complaining usually happens once or twice. Whining is repetitive and passive. Michael is so far into the whining side, that he can’t see the line anymore. There might be a lot of reasons he isn’t ready to deal with money responsibly, most of which have been discussed already. That’s not judgmental; it’s based on observing his behavior towards you.
My response to whiners is “I’ve heard you talk about this before. I will be happy to help you and share what I’ve learned when you’re ready.” Usually, the conversation is left behind, never to be raised again. But, sometimes, it can be the necessary hint that it’s time to act. As I tell my son when he doesn’t like being reminded about housework — “I know, I know!”, “I don’t care what you KNOW; I care what you do.” 🙂
And the anti-whining stance works for me, too; if I catch myself complaining to the same person twice about the same darn thing, it’s time to do something. Stop playing the victim, and try to make things at least different, if not better.
Quote: “One side note? If you have kids and dogs – giving away a dog is really not much of an option. Even if you found a wonderful home I can guarantee I’d have to be really close to the bone to give up the family pet – the kids would feel so unstable in a situation like that I shudder to think of it.”
Interesting. I better start saving now for the therapy bills that my kids will surely incur. We found a skinny stray kitten and rescued it, fed it, adopted it, got all it’s shots, then a week later moved to another country with it. My kids LOVE this cat. For two months my daughter coughed herself sick every night, and ended up being allergic to the cat, so we had to “get rid of it”. Children are rational human beings ~ we can talk to them to explain and help them understand. Luckily we can still visit him when we go home – my sister now has him.
First of all I think its never OK to judge. You may see how you would handle the situation your friend is in..but that isn’t the only way. Also unless you are supporting him and his family, leave your thoughts to yourself. Alao don’t try and make money off of his problem by putting it on your blog where I am sure you make money.
To Mike @179.
Why are you paying for his drinks more than once?
I had a friend who used to ‘forget’ to pay me back or ‘forget’ her wallet when we went out. I was really sick of it at this stage and when she asked me to pay for a whole outfit for her and she’d pay me back because she ‘forgot’ her wallet, I said no. I had deliberately left my wallet at home, showed her my bag and guess what, she magically found a credit card in her pocket.
Ever since then I have said no when she asks for money, we are still close friends, but I no longer feel resentful.
I don’t think that yours is an equal friendship at this stage.
S
@163 Missy
“People die. Pets die. This is the cycle of life.” Um no that’s not really how it works. It’s more like huge amounts of pure bred / designer pets are bred in factory settings to meet market demand for”cute and cuddly” animals and then a percentage of them are gassed in shelters each year.
“Animals have needs that are DIFFERENT from humans. Indeed, some animals cannot exist with a single owner – desert turtles and many kinds of birds MUST have multiple owners, because their lifespan is greater than ours.”
Say what? Maybe another way to look at it is that we should not be “owning” these types of animals. I mean, shouldn’t a desert turtle actually be in the desert not a glass tank?
One more thing, people want to think we are so different (read – better than) than animals. In reality animals respond to the environment much like we do. Culture, personality, tool use, emotions, insight into the mind of another, and personality were all thought to be uniquely human and have all been disproved.
Yes JD I saw where you asked 3 TIMES to stop with the animals but sorry you can’t just turn it off!
Judging other people in my opinion wastes time. It could be better spent finding solutions for other people, or better yet, concentrating on your own life.
It is difficult “not” to judge, but can be done with a little restraint, practice, and maturity.
Pets aside, I’m wondering what all the people who focused on one statement thought of the actual post?
I particularly liked the extra awareness John gave JD… even if was annoying, it still makes you think.
No offense to any of you, but many of you simply do not understand the difference between correction and judgment. A judgment is what a judge engages in: issuing a verdict for a behavior, whereas correction is what a jury does – guilty or not guilty. You, as a person, can determine whether a person’s actions are immoral/moral, right/wrong, but to say, “because your actions are immoral, you will go into bankruptcy” would be issuing a judgment. None of us know what the result of wrong behavior will lead to because many variables can affect anyone’s situation and make it much different than our own.
Now of course passing judgment is a call that only you can make – some people see judging as immoral since we are all imperfect. But to simply look at behavior as right or wrong, and to point it out is reproof and mentoring – assisting another person to see poor behavior he may not recognize. Wise people grow through reproof and mentoring; many of us would not succeed in many areas had we not received some guidelines over what is right or wrong in various areas of our life (like finance).
As Solomon says, “Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you” (Proverbs 9:8).
I like that you saw the similarities between your interactions with your two friends. And at many levels your justification for your $120 backpack is like Michael’s justification for a more expensive car or the higher rent house.
You are buying quality to avoid the hassles of your backpack falling apart while traveling. He could say buying a new car avoids the problems of a car breaking down and the attendance hassle. Getting the better house keeps him from having to move twice, uproot the children, etc. The reality is that being frugal can be a hassle and certainly takes more time and energy than just buying whatever best fits your actual or perceived needs right when you want it.
You are buying the backpack in anticipation of a need for the future aka using future plans as a justification for spending more than strictly necessary. You are arguing that quality construction, comfort/ease of use and functionality makes the $120 backpack a better fit and ultimately a better value for you than a cheap Goodwill backpack. Michael could argue that a non-beater car or the nicer house better fit his needs for the same reason.
(Of course, the difference is that Michael may be buying a car on credit and owes other people and institutions $$ but the logic is the same.)
People have different limits on how far they will go for frugal. John is willing to eat moldy fruit – he judges the value of saving that money as more useful than avoiding the small risk of illness.
Michael wants what he perceives as a safe home for his family above being debt free.
It’s just a matter of scale and where your personal limits are.
Kudos to you for seeing that.
I don’t know if the issue is about judging so much as it is about having good old-fashioned manners. You were polite to Michael, even if you disagreed with his choices. Your neighbor was rude to you, and you were his guest. So, don’t get hung up on whether or not you were judging someone or you were being judged. We all have disagreements, don’t see things eye-to-eye. A mark of character is in how well you handle yourself when disagreements occur. Sounds like you showed good character while with Michael, even if you don’t agree with his choices. Be his friend, let him see how you live your life, and maybe he will want to emulate you eventually. With your neighbor, just let his comments roll of you, and be sure to carry along a bandana so you have something to wipe your hands on. He sounds like some of my relatives, who just have to be right no matter what the issue is.
I’ve been thinking about this post since yesterday and thinking through my reaction to it. I understand what J.D. is struggling with, but honestly I find it quite disappointing.
Here’s where I’m struggling with it – I was initially drawn to this site because I was where Micheal is now. I identified with J.D. because he admitted that he was once there as well and so I felt welcome and unjudged to join this community. As I read posts on the blog and in the forums, I slowly felt hope rise in me that I could change my own bad habits. And while I still have a long way to go, I’m more in control of my finances than I have ever been and am working my way out of debt. Honestly, if I felt like anybody had judged like that, I very likely would not have continued to read this blog.
Drawing a parallel: J.D. – you’ve talked about being overweight. But if every time you went out with friends to eat, they commented on what you ordered or gave you exercise tips, you likely wouldn’t want to continue to spend time with them. Even if they don’t say anything to you, what if you felt like your friend was disgusted by your body in a bathing suit when you went to the beach together. You would be incredibly hurt. Sometimes you have to accept where a person is at and just be there to support them when they ask for it. If you can’t deal with it or respect them as a whole person, better you not spend time with them than make them feel even worse.
J.D. – My advice is to not forget from whence you came yourself. It has taken YEARS of SLOWLY building good habits for you to arrive at your success. It’s likely going to take your friend a long time as well. Be patient, model good habits, and perhaps avoid situations or conversations related to money in the meantime. For example, knowing his situation why not ask him to lunch at your house instead of going out to eat and spending money? If he starts to ask your advice and you feel like he’s not listening, why not refer him to a financial advisor or specific book and just say that you don’t feel comfortable given your relationship and then change the subject?
I am looking forward to the dog post on Friday!
I will share with you the same exercise my husband practices before every visit to his brother… Nod your head sympathetically, over and over. Mutter “Mmmm hmmm. Mmmm hmmm. I’m so sorry to hear that.” Lather, rinse repeat.
Judge him all you want. If you want to keep him in your life, then accept that even if he asks for your advice he isn’t ready to listen. Keep the advice to yourself.
As to your neighbor, I think it is great that he is happy to share his techniques with you. You are on the same road, just using slightly different vehicles.
i think it’s a little ironic you say ‘rich dad poor dad’ is a terrible book, while linking to it with your amazon affiliate id 🙂
(i.e. making money if someone buys it from amazon using your link.)
Your friend is an idiot but there’s nothing you can do about it. I’ve got friends like that too.
@Kate 198
I understand your point and wish you luck on your journey. However there is a big difference between how JD was and how Michael is. Michael has already hurt others with his spending habits by declaring bankruptcy. We can get into the old argument about who is hurt and how much, but the fact is someone has to cover that loss even if it is spread over a whole bunch of people so they don’t individually feel the squeeze. This fact distinguishes weight loss from finances. JD is only hurting himself if he doesn’t lose weight. If he had kids who were dependent on him and his weight threatened his health and life then I would say he has a responsibility to lose weight. In that case I would also say he has a responsibility to not engage in other potentially life threatening activities.
If someone manages to be autonomous while doing stupid things I completely support their right to stupidity. However if others have to cover the cost of failure then that’s not okay.
As an aside (I am NOT trying to bring this up into conversation but simply pointing out the logic), that is why a lot of people are opposed to socialized health care. When the expenses for your bad health decisions have to be covered by society at large your bad choices become the business of everyone.
As an aside: universal health care fixes several problems with market failure, thus improving outcomes for everybody, including insurers. People who have made bad health decisions are the ones most likely to be willing to pay what they can for insurance. Those who have made good health decisions are most likely to be the ones who end up stressing the system when they get hit by a bus without insurance. People who call it “socialized” health care and who say it hurts everyone don’t understand basic public finance. No, we shouldn’t offer free unlimited health care to everyone, but there is a role for copays and coinsurance to reduce moral hazard problems. The logic is bad, so don’t bring it up as an aside as if it were the truth.
I judge people’s finances (privately) all the time but I’m willing to accept that people do the same to me.
My partner and I were sitting on facebook earlier and one of my old school friends had posted an image of her shoe closet (yes closet filled with shoes!), the same friend who works full time, lives with her parents and complains that she has no money. We both looked at each other and said “this is why we can afford to live in a great apartment on a single part time income”.
She might think that I lead a boring frugal life or perhaps she believes that I’m in debt or maybe even that I’m selfish for quitting my job to study while my partner works to pay the bills while he also studies.
*Shrug*
these 2 scenarios happened for a reason. first off, judging is human. you cannot stop it. the only thing you can control is what you choose to do with these feelings.
regarding michael: experience is the best teacher. it is frustrating to watch someone heading towards disaster but he’s the one who needs to realize there is a problem. beyond giving him a copy of your book (“hey check out my new book”) coupled with “if you need me you know where to find me” you’ve helped all you can. part of the process beyond recognizing there is a problem is learning how to find help and ask for help.
regarding your neighbor: i’m sure his intentions are well-placed but frankly people like that exist to remind me how NOT to act. from your descriptions, he sounds very unpleasant and someone i personally would not want to be around. i think the most striking comment was regarding your book purchase. this was a book you wanted to read. sorry but unless he had the SAME book in his library he had no room to scold. his behavior comes off as aggressive and condescending. please don’t be that guy.
great post, JD. wonderful food for thought.
Shara @202 –
I’m confused. At one point, you say that J.D. would only hurt himself by being overweight, but then later you use the argument socialized medicine requires that the group be responsible for an individual’s poor health choices. Your argument seems to conflict itself.
While I actually think that your greater argument about Michael’s bankruptcy and the idea that one person’s ill health and the impact of both on society are complimentary arguments, that wasn’t my point.
[I am not interested in a debate about health care. I brought up the weight issue as it’s a struggle that relates in a lot of ways to money. Taking control of it takes consistent good habits and a lot of self-control.]
My point wasn’t meant to bring up generalities, it was to bring it back to the personal. It’s normal for people to judge, but it’s not really all the productive. If J.D. wants to truly help his friend, he needs to find a way to either avoid conversations about his money woes or support him through it patiently. It just comes back to the golden rule. When you’re working through a challenging personal situation, how would you want your friends to support you?
Personally, I would want the truth told to me in a loving way from somebody that I trust. It may be something I don’t want to hear, but if I know that person has my best interests at heart and tells me in a way that doesn’t make me defensive, I’m more likely to listen.
From foreclosure to 3 iPhones – gotta love America!
“What about getting rid of the dogs?” you know JD people look at their dogs as children.
I would never pay more money for dogs to be comfortable when I’m in a crisis mold.
By the spouse and kids having new gadgets I doubt if they even notice a financial crisis.
Nothing seems expensive on credit
-Czech proverb
Like Kristin, I think your situation and your friend’s are not entirely analagous: you’re stable and frugal and investing your money. If you choose to enjoy some of the excess now while your friend chooses to save more, that’s very different from putting yourself and your family in peril with poor spending choices.
As far as judgment, I think it’s best to stay within your own boundaries. You can say, “I wouldn’t make the choices you’re making, and I can’t continue to put resources into helping you if you’re making choices so different from mine.” etc.
This was an awesome column – very observant and relevant. Thanks!
@Nicole
Socialized health care in its purest form doesn’t HAVE premiums. Therefore there wouldn’t be people “willing to pay more” because no individual pays more, that’s part of the point. Nor was I saying the argument was right or wrong, merely that it exists and the logic behind it. And the logic is sound because, right or wrong, that is the argument used by many politicians as they pass laws to restrict food choices etc. Just because something isn’t true doesn’t mean people don’t believe it. And just because you contradicted it doesn’t mean you’re right either, but that’s beside the point. While what you said is interesting I don’t care enough to dig it up myself. It doesn’t advise my philosophy since my philosophy is far too libertarian to be effected either way.
@Kate
There was no contradiction. My point about socialized health care was that the argument of shared cost is used to restrict choices and attempt to make people make better choices. As things stand right now JD, not his tax paying neighbors, bears the costs of his own health decisions and therefore doesn’t burden others with the consequences of his choices. It is analogous to the difference between Michael making bad choices (according to JD) and filing bankruptcy out from his debt and JD making bad choices (according to John) but being able to pay the costs out of his own bank account. One is autonomous and I think should be able to make as many *bad* choices as he can pay for. And the other is turning the expense over for others to absorb which I think opens him to condemnation in a way JD is not.
By not paying the consequences himself I think Michael has opened HIMSELF to judgment. Just like I think a parent who pays for college can demand specific behavior and grades from their adult child. The person(s) bearing the cost earn the right to judge the behavior. Michael turned over responsibility for his debt to the ether of bankruptcy court. Morally I think that’s all of us. He converted his finances from a private issue to a public one.
I judge all the time. Mostly silently, sometimes vocally.
Just this week my daughter and her bf rented an inexpensive, incredibly tiny studio+ apartment in a very good area where they hope to find work. They have asked me to help them move there stuff so I did what any rational person would do and told them when I thought they should leave behind, due to space and financal considerations. But they insist they take the large entertainment unit with a giant CRT television,and tons of video game equipment, and a new speakers system purchased with graduation money … and they are currently shopping for two computer desks to hold their desktop and laptop for the required two seperate work areas. When I point out that there is physically no room and rationally no reason to have all that with them right now they don’t want to hear it. Somehow, they will live amidst the electonics and find a way to pay for it all dispite the fact that neither one has a job yet, and find a way to plug it all in even though there are only 2 outlets in the room.
I’ve decided to let other family members take the actual trip with them and their stuff because I already know it’s going to be a disaster and I don’t want to subject myself to the frustrations.
I don’t think you’re judging. I think a judgment is a verbal pronouncement and/or a change in the way you treat someone (or something). You simply have an opinion on something your friend brought up. You didn’t call him out of his fantasy, and I assume you’re not treating him differently because of his situation, so you haven’t judged him. And kudos for worrying about a friend when he himself can’t be bothered to do so.
Most people don’t appreciate criticism, no matter how well earned. And it really stinks when the people in question are close friends. So just give him good advice and hope things work out for him.
And all you people dumping on the neighbor, work hard, save up for retirement and THEN show the world how it’s done. In the meantime shut up let the guy be however he wants to be. He’s earned it, and you haven’t.
There I go, judging …
I have yet to see how one person judging another person is helpful.
Maybe consider why you feel a need to judge.
It sounds like Michael might need compassion and prayer. Enabling will not help. It sounds like Michael is not interested in the help you are offering anyway.
Each person has their own path and is responsible for themselves. Live and let live.
A good resource for people who struggle with debt and money issues is Debtor’s Anonymous. http://www.debtorsanonymous.org/ But it’s only for people who want to change.
I read GRS sporadically, even though it is on my homepage. It is a great website and I enjoy it thourogly when I do read it.
My three kids owe me a total of just over $7200. My life was constant stress and worry over their finances. I offered budgeting services, intermediary bank account services, to pay for counseling, bought them books, emailed them articles (some from GRS), etc. I engaged in bribery, pleading, yelling, ignoring, judging, mean-ness, sarcasm, and general bad behavior.
We have family game-nights a few times a year. My entire night would be ruined when one of my kids would mention something about buying their friend an expensive birthday gift. Telling me about driving to another state for dinner with their friends and buying $8 shots was sure to invoke a response.
Finally, I said no. NO! I told them the bank was closed and I would be loaning no more money. No deals, no bargains, no pleading, no negotiations, just no money. I said if I “CHOSE” to I would give them money, picking up the tab for lunch for example, but no more loans.
It was difficult to make that step, but I am much happier for it. I have a distance from the situation which reduces the stress and anxiety. Now, if they mention their poor spending habits, my DW and I look at each other and roll our eyes.
I still offer budgeting services and advice to them on a regular basis. Perhaps two or three times a year. Other than that, I’ll wait for them to ask.
One of the posters used a mountain analogy, with Michael at the bottom, JD in the middle and some guy on the top of the mountain in a lioncloth! I am somewhere between Michael and JD. While I do well with my finances, I am prone to the occasional spending spree. My wife and I have a mortgage and one car payment, I have one student loan. We have a LARGE emergency fund and pay off credit cards in full each month.
Shara– You’re wrong. There’s no definition of “socialized health care in its purest form.” “Socialized medicine” is a jargon term used by people who don’t understand the role for government in market failure. It doesn’t have a standardized “pure” definition, at least not in economics or public policy circles.
You’ve hit one of my pet peeves of people who are ignorant about a topic trying to push a political agenda “as an aside.” I strongly recommend reading the textbook “Public Finance and Public Policy” by Jonathan Gruber as a primer. It’s at a college undergraduate level and should be readable.
You are right that just because something isn’t true doesn’t mean people don’t believe it, but by stating it as a throwaway aside as if it is so true it doesn’t require any explanation or qualification doesn’t help the matter– it just spreads untruths.
Now back on topic to complaining about people throwing away their pets.
I’ve only read the first 100 posts, so hope I’m not beating any dead horses here….
First off, each member of a society has a moral imperative to call others on “bad” behavior. Yes, our individual value systems will determine what is bad. Howevere, in my book, silence often is received as tacit approval. When I see someone belittling a child in public, I will call them on that behavior — polietly and with compassion.
That said, what struck me the most about this article is that Michael’s bad decisions affect not only himself, but his whole family. And even if he changed completely today, his past bad decisions are going to continue to affect his whole family for several years.
As a previous poster stated, Michael’s right to be an idiot and irresponsible stops the moment those decisions begin to affect others.
In this particular situation, I don’t believe JD went far enough. Ethically, since JD cares about Michael and his family, I think JD needed to bite the bullet and state some hard truths to his friend, even at the risk of alienating Michael. Hard truths can be relayed with compassion. But Michael needs someone in his face on this — and ultimately, Michael will be more receptive to hard truths from someone he views as a good friend than say the guy who refuses his car loan (or rental contract).
The comparison to an addict is very close. Funny how we never want to judge others about money. However, if Michael were gambling away hugh amounts of money every week, I’d bet JD would be far more likely to offer to get him to counseling, etc. and risk the loss of the friendship.
Just for the record, I’m a recovering alcoholic myself and do not buy into the predominent mentality that it is “beyond my control”. It wasn’t until my family stepped up and said either enter treatment or never call us again that I was finally able to recognize my own drinking as definitly a problem that needed to change. Without this “in your face” intervention, I probably would have continued to abuse my body and my finances for several more years before hitting bottom. Because of my family, hopefully I never will hit bottom.
Michael needs to stop the spending and live within his means. If JD feels love for him and his family, he needs to call Michael on his behaviors. More than subtle suggestions are necessary here.
Just my own little judgment and two cents.
JD, the real issue is, Michael doesn’t want help – from you or anyone. I’m sure that’s a difficult spot for you to be in, because you’ve got a self-developed and widely-acknowledged streak of expertise in the very matter that Michael is obviously struggling in – but the fact remains, no one can help another person unless that person *wants* to be helped. Resign yourself to the fact that Michael isn’t ready for or doesn’t want your (or most likely anyone’s) advice, and move on.
Re the mention of buying “In Patagonia,” I hope you do get a chance to go to Argentina/Chile in a few years. Patagonia is one of the most incredible places I’ve ever been, and while it was a little bit expensive, it was a fantastic experience!
People’s crappy financial decisions always have a way of impacting their friends and family. For example, you likely felt obligated to treat your friend to dinner, whereas you would not feel that way if he was in better financial shape. Does this mean you have a right to judge? Not *really*, but it is natural to resent someone when you sacrifice for the sake of responsibility and you are then burdened by someone else’s wastefulness.
I used to have more sympathy for people going though hard times, but no more.
I have always been frugal in my spending ,handling debt (STAY AWAY!)and have looked clearly at options before I invest. I am 38 and have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in boring index funds, bought my home in Florida in 2004 and am not near underwater, have my kids college prepaid, emergency fund fully funded and my marriage, and family life are awsome to go with this- go figure!
Am I bragging? Mabey, or mabey I am just telling it like it is, just like all those d-bags, WHO MESSED UP FINANCIALLY, whom I have seen and heard over the past 20 years. One uppers who bought or leased better, newer cars and bigger houses than I had. People who bragged about their internet stock,that hadn’t made a dime yet, that doubled in a week. People who said mortgage debt is OK, especially if you do a 2nd on your home too buy another house to flip! People who like Credit cards for the miles. People who wouldn’t lower themselves to use a coupon, buy something used, buy a boring index fund or hold off on buying every cool electronic gadget just to ask me how I can live my life is without it. I say “I don’t know, I just do not need to tell 439 phony facebook friends, what kind of doughnut I just bought just then on my Iphone”.
All of these people made and lost alot of money over the years, but most of them are not making money now, they are making excuses. It is not my fault, it is the bank’s, credit card company’s, car dealer’s, realtor’s, stock broker’s, wall street’s, subprime lender’s, George Bush’s, rich people’s, my boss’s, my customer’s, the economy’s, China’s, health insurance company’s, or my spouse’s (did miss any?). It is any or all of these reasons that made them fail. Not them being one-uping, know it all d-bags for the last 20 years.
THE ONLY WAY TO GROW FROM THESE THINGS -FORCLOSURE, SHORT SELLING, DEFAULTING, BANKRUPT, REPO, NO MONEY TO FALL BACK ON, ETC. IS TO SAY ” YES I MESSED UP, I AM SCARED, BUT I AM FROM NOW ON GOING TO STAY WITHIN MY MEANS, LOOK AT RISK IN MY INVESTMENTS, WORK HARD, SAVE, AND FORM REAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH POSITIVE PEOPLE IN MY LIFE AND WILL BE OK IN THE LONG RUN….Oh and not be a one upping D-BAg!
Alot won’t change and will go back to finding the next best thing to delve into. If it makes a dime you will hear about it. Just hope they do not involve you in the deal. Those people – No sympathy!
The difference here is that Michael asked for advice and JD did not.
The Millionaire Next Door was offering unsolicited advice and nobody wants that, really. Michael came asking for it and still ignored it. No wonder JD felt uncomfortable…he felt manipulated and foolish for even wasting his time with Michael.
Ya know…I think sometimes, people have been brought up a certain way or they are used to living a certain way, and they just have no idea how to differentiate between wants and needs. could you maybe post some kind of sample budget (with percentages, since everyone’s salary is different) so we would have some idea? my husband and i have been trying to put together a budget for some time now. he makes 31,000 annually, but the job provides a home and all utilities. we feel we should be doing better than we are, but we can’t even make a budget without being in the negative. want to use our budget as an example??? I’d love a re-do but do not know how to do it.
Judging? Or observing a pending hurricane in slow motion and accurately describing where and how the storm is going to hit?
I think JD is doing the latter. The sad truth is that Michael is immature, lazy, and foolish. Here’s the breakdown.
1. IMMATURE– because he can’t manage delayed gratification. Last summer, I wanted an IPhone, too. So did my pregnant wife. But we had just bought a bigger house and had yet to sell our condo, and were living as “low on the hog” as we could go. In early November, we sold the condo.
I bought my wife an IPhone because she was getting less mobile and had trouble getting upstairs to use the computer. Not knowing what type of baby delivery expenses we would have, I kept my older phone, which I bought refurbished from AT&T in 2007 for a while longer. After we paid off the hospital bills, I bought an IPhone- in March 2010.
This type of thinking is anathema to Michael, but is a core building block of creating and keeping wealth, or at least a modest emergency fund.
2. LAZY– When JD found Michael a $500 rental, he should have been thrilled. When he found out it did not fit his family’s requirements, an even moderately industrious person would either ask JD how they found the $500 place and ask for help in learning to search for other low-cost places, or ask JD directly to keep searching for him. Michael just went out and found whatever fit his requirements, none of which were financial. Surely in all of PDX there is SOME rental in the city that can accommodate his family and dogs that is less than $1300/month. But he didn’t want to do the legwork to find that place.
3. FOOLISH- at $1300 month rent and $180 in cell phones, he has established a base burn rate of money at $17,760 per year without touching electricity, water, the digital cable package that Michael will probably order, gasoline/transit passes and oh yeah, FOOD. The median family income (usually a two-income household with married adults) in PDX is about $50k according to Wikipedia. Did the guy who just moved to town with no job pick up that type of salary on his own? I doubt it. So let’s say he’s making a little over half that at $30k.
Coming out of bankruptcy, with $12000 and change left BEFORE taxes to take care of his family this year, with only shelter and phone service covered otherwise?
The real potential problem is three to six months down the road. If his monthly cash flow is already underwater as he starts the new job, things are only going to get worse later on.
I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but this type of behavior has cascading consequences for family, and Michael’s immediate and extended family are probably already suffering from it. I’ve seen my father-in-law do too many similar things to waste money.
He’s twice my age, has worked as a lawyer for 30 years, and has no retirement savings, but he did take a transatlantic luxury cruise a few years back and is vacatoining in Texas this week.
Half of my financial life is worrying about what happens if he gets seriously ill before he is eligible for Medicare. I fear that they will need to sell their house to pay bills, and they will come to us for money to live on. We are savers but the only way for us to do this is to basically raid our own retirement funds.
So is JD judging Michael? No. There are real and visceral consequences lurking for Michael’s wife, sons, and any other family members who will be asked to forego their dreams (or perhaps already have) to save his wasteful behind at some point.
So Michael, if you’re reading, it’s time to man up.
1. Keep your dogs, but go find shelter for somewhere under $800/month. Better yet, find that shelter somewhere along a bus or a train route that gets you to your job easily, and save money on both transport and housing.
2. The IPhones go back. ASAP. Go hit an AT&T store and tell them you thought you could afford them, but can’t, and ask how you can return them and replace them with the most basic but functional cellphones they offer. Then drop the data plans and get a monthly family plan that is far less expensive.
Holy mackerel! This guy is hopeless. And you need a friend like that moving to your city about as much as you need…another dog! Watch out. He’ll be at your doorstep asking to sponge off you one of these days.
A friend of mine was always in shaky financial shape, partly because of life circumstances and partly because of poor life decisions. She wasn’t a bad or irresponsible person, just someone who never could achieve long-term stability.
I never judged her because it took me a long time to realize how her own decisions had contributed to some of her difficulties. For instance, I didn’t recognize her poor choice of a husband because they were already engaged when I met them. Years later when the marriage broke up, she had every opportunity to sell the marital home, and she should have. Instead she tried to keep it, and eventually lost it to foreclosure.
Not judging was undoubtedly easier for me because I ended up moving away before her marriage really hit the rocks. Nothing I or anyone else could say would have mattered anyway. This couple got themselves into a huge financial and emotional mess that no one else could get them out of. We lost touch over a year ago, probably for good.
i post on frugal village and living like no one else. i also went “scorched earth” intense when i did debt repayment.
i get super frustrated when people post that they can’t feed their kids or pay their bills, but won’t cut off karate lessons or cable. after one suggestion, maybe two, i leave them alone and won’t respond to their posts anymore.
I have two comments to make:
1. As a pet owner I can say that getting rid of the dogs is not an option because pets are a part of your family. Asking to get rid of dogs is like saying getting rid of a child or sibling. I know this sounds crazy but many pet owners will agree.
2. Why do you not like RIch Dad Poor Dad? I would really like to hear your side because I really liked the book.
When you mentioned you threw a moldy orange overboard, I thought your friend was going to admonish you for not only tossing out something that still had edible value, but also for littering. At the risk of sounding judgemental, why in the world would someone (and an Oregonian at that) go to Alaska and LITTER?
I can’t get past tearing a paper towel in half for personal use. Was it one of those brands that gives you the option of tearing off half for the sake of efficiency? If so, were you actually using a quarter of the paper towel? That doesn’t seem frugal. It seems cheap.
Still….I REALLY can’t get past using that same half-of-paper-towel (that actually could have been a quarter of the paper towel) until it becomes gross and grimy.
Maybe you can share your neighbor’s identity with us so that we never eat at his home should any of us have the misfortune of meeting him, befriending him, and being invited to dinner.
The scenario you described would have made me jump off the boat and swim back to shore.
It’s a beautiful post, by the way. Both of your friends appear to live at extremes while you come across as well-balanced. My opinion is that THEY have a lot to learn from YOU – except for the bit about the dogs… 😉
an orange will biodegrade, not litter. geez!
I think your solution suggests itself – just introduce John and Michael. The one will get to judge someone who actually needs it, and the other will get what is probably a totally new perspective to him.
Very interesting article. It connects well with the financial blind spots article that followed it. I think this is symptomatic of a wider problem than making bad financial choices–our capacity to lie to ourselves. Your friend really needs to take an honest look at his life , not just in terms of his day-to-day spending, but overall. There is some serious denial here. As a friend, although this kind of thing can be painful to watch, sometimes all you can do is gently nudge someone in the right direction and be there to help pick them up when they hit bottom.
As a total side-note, the bits about the half paper towel you used for a few days and your neighbour wanting to eat part of a moldy orange are borderline vomit inducing. You’re a reasonable guy, you should not feel the least bit guilty about this (except maybe for repeatedly using a slimy, dirty paper towel). Truly sickening.
Three iPhones?!? Seriously?
Hell, I’m nowhere near being in trouble financially but I use a very simple prepaid phone (on NET10) and it costs me $20 a month. Nothing fancy but it gets the job done and the service is actually quite good.
Michael is really not ready to make any kind of sacrifice to get back on his feet…
Since someone mentioned “The Sermon on the Mount” Matthew 5-7 I thought I’d mention something I was recently shown. In Matthew 6:19-34 it talks about simplifying our life in order to put spiritual things first. Why, in this 30 minute sermon did Jesus spend so much time on $$?! Do you think he knew it’d be hard for imperfect humans?!
I can’t wait ’til Friday. I don’t see pets as a necessity for people in financial trouble!
I’m having a hard time with my parents and judging them about money… Mostly my mom, but my dad doesn’t do much to help control the finances.
I liked an idea I read recently (on this web page?) that gave the idea of making a person buy back their items to find out what’s most important to them.
this situation is tough for both sides as im sure he isnt feeling to good about himself for the situation he is in. as for you, whatever advice you give him is still only advice, he can take it or leave it. it really is too bad though that you werent more forceful with him over the home and cell phones. your friend hasnt learned anything, continues to make the same stupid money mistakes and will never really fix his situation until he gets his spending in control!
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I really enjoyed reading your article. It was refreshingly honest and I could relate. I am your friend… I’m in his shoes, with he exception of the spending on unnecessary things (iPhones?) No thanks not me. But I am struggling, and worse yet, I’ve been unemployed since May 2010, and going through a divorce that should be final this summer.
What do I do? I don’t know, but I am finally paying off my last credit card debt ($10,000.00) and CLOSING it. Not just putting it on ice or cutting it up. I will resort to strictly living from what I get from the divorce settlement and my future writing job (my goal), using a debit card only. No more credit cards, no borrowing (although I never did that), no shopping sprees, no unnecessary spending. I need a job more and financial stability, not fancy phones, or dinners. For a while it might be a bit hard, then I’ll get bored. But Ill survive. The one thing I wont give up is my fitness. But that I found a solution to as well, I have located through Meetup FREE exercise groups. It’s fantastic! We meet up at the beach (what better place!) appx 2-3 times a week, workout for 1 hr. then share nutritional shakes & I get to meet new people as well. Life’s hard, how much harder do you want to make it on yourself? I don’t. So, I accept my circumstances and deal with them accordingly, and in this case sensibly and responsibly as well.
I know this is an old article, but about the footnote: I can’t find the link to the article he was talking about regarding pets. He was supposed to post it the upcoming Friday. Any help here?
Sorry if i’m the only one but I totally relate to you and as I read this I went into judge mode myself. I can’t help but be angered by:
people screaming at their water being shut off because they haven’t paid the bill in a year so now they get a big bill…can’t afford it but they have nice tennis shoes and a new smart phone.
people saying they can’t afford food – yet they have an absurd amount of animals, full cable, smart phones.
I could keep listing – but there seems to be a disconnect in this society – we all have our comfort levels that we’re willing to cut back to – and of course not everyone has to cut back, you work you can splurge. BUT DON’T CRY POVERTY – CLAIM BANKRUPTCY AND EXPECT PITY when you have an expensive cell phone w/bill, full service cable, new clothing, expensive make up – etc. these are all LUXURIES not necessities. I think our society has skewed priorities. I don’t get it. Go ahead and judge him – just don’t impose it on him (which i know you have not) – it’s difficult to feel pity when it’s so obviously that people have created their own cesspool. loved this blog.