Money is More About Mind Than It Is About Math Print
Monday, 28th September 2009 (by J.D.)This article is about Basics, Psychology
This is the first of a thirteen-part series that explores the core tenets of Get Rich Slowly.
I had a group of old high-school friends over to the house last weekend. As the daylight faded and the cool of the evening settled, we sat around a blazing fire talking about life. We shared the good things we’ve done over the past twenty years — and we shared the bad. Inevitably, the conversation turned to money.
- One woman confessed that she’s a shopaholic. When she feels stressed, she buys things. To prevent her husband from finding out, she’s the one who pays the bills.
- Another woman has more clothes than she will ever wear. Her closets are packed so full that she’s begun to pile new purchases on the floor — but still she buys more.
- One of my friends admitted that he’s sunk thousands of dollars into online videogames. After his divorce, he spent years addicted to his computer. (He’s now turning things around: He quit gaming cold-turkey and is re-discovering friends and exercise.)
- I told my own story of how I used to buy books and clothes and compact discs compulsively. “I’d bring them home and never use them,” I said. “I just liked the act of buying. It gave me a sense of power, I guess.”
Each of us had a story about how we’d done dumb things with money. In every instance, these dumb things were the product of some psychological or emotional impulse. We weren’t acting rationally. We’re smart folks — when we were in high school together, we were in the college-prep classes together — and we understand the mathematics of our choices, but we make them anyhow. Why?
Because smart money management is more about mind than it is about math.
The psychology of money
For years, the “expert” advice on personal finance has assumed that we act like machines, that we will always choose the mathematically optimal option. I’ve read countless personal finance books filled with advice that is technically correct, but which forgets the role our minds play in making financial decisions.
When discussing this notion — that financial success is more often influenced by personal psychology than by mathematical ability — I frequently cite Dave Ramsey’s debt snowball. It’s the perfect example of what I mean.
Critics of Ramsey are quick to point out that the math of his method doesn’t make sense. Going strictly by the numbers, it’s better to pay down debt by starting with the obligation that has the highest interest rate. The critics are right, of course, but they miss the point. In most cases, if we were being rational, we wouldn’t have accumulated the debt in the first place. Most of the time, debt isn’t a math problem — it’s a psychological problem. Because of that, Ramsey’s method — pay off the lowest balances first — makes more sense. It allows quick wins, which provide positive reinforcement, which provides a motivation to continue.
Here are some of the many other ways in which our minds play a role in money management:
- Any time we loan money to family or friends, emotion plays a role. And inheritances? In the past year, I’ve had three people tell me nightmare stories about families that have disintegrated while fighting over a parent’s estate. These are psychological and emotional battles, not battles about math.
- Marketing (and advertising) is the science of persuasion. It purposefully influences our spending habits — even if we think it doesn’t. When we reduce our exposure to advertising, it’s easier to spend less.
- I am in constant awe of what parents spend on their children. They want what’s best for their kids, and most of them aren’t afraid to pay for it. But it’s not rational to buy clothes at Baby Gap instead of at Goodwill.
- A lot of financial planning is about teaching the client to take emotion out of investing. Too many people make investment decisions based on psychological reactions to the economy and the stock market. It’s these emotional reactions that cause people to buy high and sell low.
- Every financial goal we set is based on our personal psychology, on emotion.
There’s a burgeoning body of research that explores the many ways in which money management is more mental than mathematical. “Behavioral finance” and “behavioral economics” are explored in books like Why Smart People Make Big Money Mistakes — and How to Correct Them [my review], Why Smart People Do Stupid Things With Money, Predictably Irrational, Nudge, and Your Money and Your Brain.
Take back your brain
We can never completely remove the emotional and psychological aspects of money management. Nor do I think we ought to. We’re humans, not robots. But I do think it’s important for us to reduce the negative emotional financial decisions as much as possible. Here are some of the best ways that I have learned to combat poor choices — to take back my brain:
- Reduce exposure to advertising. Many people believe they’re unaffected by advertising. Many people are wrong. As much as you can, avoid advertising. Watch less television (or watch it in a way that cuts out commercials). Skip magazine ads. Use an adblocker for your browser. The less advertising you see, the less you’ll be persuaded to buy things you do not need.
- Avoid temptation. When I was paying off my debt and trying to reduce my spending, I forced myself to stay away from book stores and comic shops. I knew that I lacked discipline. Rather than put myself in the path of temptation, I steered completely clear of it. If you’re tempted at malls, stay away from malls. If you often succumb to peer pressure, don’t go out for drinks with your friends. Stay away from the things that tempt you.
- Automate. One of the best ways to trick your mind is to simply take it out of the equation. If you find it difficult to make smart financial choices, remove the choice. Sign up for auto-billpay. Set up an automatic monthly transfer from your checking account to your savings account. If you have access to an employer-sponsored retirement plan, take advantage of it. When you make things automatic, you cannot be sabotaged by emotion or psychology.
- Practice mindfulness. When you’re tempted to make a purchase, pause. Take thirty seconds to ask yourself if you truly need the thing you’re about to buy. If it’s a big purchase, force yourself to wait thirty days. Track every penny you spend so that you become aware of your weaknesses.
- Read. Better education has helped me fight some of my mental flaws. The more I read about stock market investing, for example, the more convinced I am that making regular investments into index funds is the only way that I’m going to be a successful investor. It takes the emotion out of the equation.
I’m not sure what will happen with the friends I saw last weekend. Maybe some of them will continue to make the same financial mistakes. Maybe some of them will turn things around. But I do know this: The answers to their problems will not come from a better understanding of compound interest or another explanation that it’s important to spend less than you earn. While these concepts are important, they’re purely mathematical. In order for my friends to manage their money, they need to go beyond math — they need to master their minds.
This is the first of a thirteen-part series that explores my financial philosophy. These are the core tenets of Get Rich Slowly. Though I’m reluctant to make this commitment (I have a poor track record of following through with this sort of thing), I intend to publish a new installment in this series every Monday.

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September 28th, 2009 at 5:10 am
Very interesting post. Looking forward for the rest of the series!
September 28th, 2009 at 5:31 am
“The more I read about stock market investing, for example, the more convinced I am that making regular investments into index funds is the only way that I’m going to be a successful investor. It takes the emotion out of the equation.”
Bingo. Not only do index funds make sense from a mathematical standpoint, they make sense from a psychological one as well. With index funds, it’s easy to understand (and have confidence in) what you own.
Personally, I invest in the world economy. And I’m overwhelmingly confident that, over time, that economy will continue to produce goods and services of value and sell them for a profit. I’m happy to just take a share of that.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:33 am
The biggest part of any issue is realizing you have a problem, be it with money, drugs, the way we deal with others, etc. We don’t often come to that realization without something external forcing us to realize it, because typically the way we’ve been doing things to date has been “working”, no matter how disfunctionally it’s been limping along.
So until you get something making you think about things differently, you tend to march the same path, even if it’s become a deep rut leading you right towards the edge of a cliff.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:54 am
Spending money and eating food are the hardest addictions to overcome because you still have to do them to survive. You can’t just give up either one of them completely like you can with drugs or pornography.
I believe one way to look at it is to say that over-spending and over-eating are the addiction, not spending and eating.
Anyways, thanks for the thought-provoking post. I enjoyed it a lot.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:54 am
This is looking like a great series, so I do hope you follow through J.D.!
I’m hoping to be aware of all my money habits, good and bad, before I start making more than I am now. That way, I can monitor the bad ones, work on the good ones, and hopefully end up better for it in the end. The hardest thing to remember is that I haven’t even gotten started yet, really!! (I realized last night that I do try to act like I’m much older than my age, but without all the stuff that goes with it — mostly the higher income.)
September 28th, 2009 at 5:58 am
All decisions are psychological, financial decisions included. They are not more psychological than mathematical; that’s an odd thing to say. Behavioral economists wouldn’t and don’t say that. They also wouldn’t suggest that shopping at Baby Gap or using the debt snowball isn’t rational. Classical economists would say that though, and they’re the ones who use strict assumptions about economic man. Behavioral economics shows us that the assumptions underlying classical economics are not realistic given how humans behave, but not less rational; it’s simply not the model they prefer.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:59 am
You hammered this nail on the head. So many people feel like going on a budget is GIVING UP control and taking away all the fun. It is so the opposite. Budgeting is GAINING CONTROL and allowing us to feel true, long-term joy in how we spend the money we earn instead of a short-term rush and long-term regret.
September 28th, 2009 at 6:00 am
While most people tell you that automizing is the way to go, I actually prefer to do everything myself. I feel more in control when I make payments and pay bills manually.
I have no problems with it either. I have both a long term and short term plan and stick to it extremely well.
Maybe I’m a control freak but it works best for me this way.
September 28th, 2009 at 6:12 am
Nice one JD
I liked the ways you suggested to be in control of things like staying away from Ads and controlling the temptations.
September 28th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Jonan (#6),
That’s an interesting perspective, because I feel exactly the opposite in my own situation.
I’m a recovering control freak and when I switched to automating my finances (auto bill pay, auto savings transfers, etc.) I was able to increase my savings rate by nearly 100%.
Of course, it didn’t start out like that and there were some bumps in the road along the way, but after switching over, it became much easier to gradually bump up my savings rate.
September 28th, 2009 at 6:39 am
You re so right on in this post that it’s scary, J.D.
You get it that in the spending area advertising appeals to our emotions and our emotions, not our logic, control our decision-making.
I ask that you open your mind to the idea that the same phenomenon applies in the investing area. Passive Investing is the product of the marketing departments of the big mutual fund companies. There has never been a time in the history of the market when valuations did not affect the long-term value proposition of stocks and there never will be one.
We need blogs like this one reporting realitically on what we have learned in the past 30 years about how stock investing works in the real world. It does not work at all in the way described by those promoting the marketing slogans of The Stock-Selling Industry.
Price matters when buying stock just as it does when buying cars and comic books and bananas. When the day comes when we are all able to say that out loud at all blogs, we will together change the history of investing. I very much look forward to that magic day.
Rob
September 28th, 2009 at 6:40 am
I have to agree with the eating part, I lose a lot of money in the grocery store. I have a hard time with following a list and sticking to it, even though that is what the experts say to use. I guess I am a “good deal” freak. The grocery store is my weakness. I say I am only going to buy these items but I come out with much more and I have spent more than I planned, most items that I bough were excellent sales but I just can’t seem to get over the grocery budget part of the equation, I always spend more. Even though I have stuff in my cupboards at home I should be using up.
ugghh! Maybe I am being unrealistic with my grocery budget and I should be funding more to it, I am not really sure. But you have to eat and you have to buy groceries so that is what makes this one hard.
As far as the adds, I have gotten a handle on that one, I stand right over my garbage can once a day and toss all of the junk mail, that is right, I don’t even browse through I just toss it. There is always a good deal somewhere I tell my self if I could only stay out of the grocery store!!
September 28th, 2009 at 6:57 am
@rdzins - Maybe it’s time to try the Eating Down the Fridge challenge. I think Kim O’Donnel coined the phrase (currently at culinate.com and trueslant.com). The point is to skip grocery shopping for one week and just use what you’ve got on hand in the refrigerator and your cupboards. You don’t stock up ahead, just start from wherever you are. Instead of buying ingredients for a meal you’ve planned, you plan meals around the ingredients you’ve got.
The benefits are saving a little money, challenging your creativity for cooking, and reducing the waste of things that might otherwise be thrown out.
September 28th, 2009 at 6:58 am
Right on! The 80/20 rule applies; 80% BEHAVIOR, only 20% knowledge.
Advertising and Marketing companies (especially credit card companies) KNOW this. Take a look at the documentary ‘Maxed Out.’
Food for thought…
September 28th, 2009 at 7:08 am
I once read a great article about changing habits. (I apologize that it was so long ago that I have no clue how to find it) It said that we learn not to touch hot stoves because the result–a painful burn–has zero positive reward for us. But with other actions that are just as obviously bad for us, such as being irresponsible with money or eating foods that we know are unhealthy, there is actually some emotional or physical upside to the action, which is why it’s so difficult to break ourselves of those habits.
The trick to changing a bad habit, stated the article, was to figure out what positive reward you are getting from whatever habit you want to change, and work on finding a substitute for that. I think that’s why I like reading PF blogs now. Reading suggestions of ways to have fun without spending money or descriptions of how having less stuff actually makes it easier to care for a house really helps me keep the motivation up for not buying useless stuff.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Great start. Will you be looking at how to take emotion out of financial decisions?
September 28th, 2009 at 7:20 am
It all comes down to having a clear-cut and detailed operations plan ahead of time. When you have a detailed method for managing your budget (like the envelope system) or your investing (like an allocated percentage of various index funds that you rebalance once a year), it’s much easier to do the right thing than if you had no plan at all.
Thinking about it in the heat of battle is what causes people to go astray. If you’re at the store looking at that merchandise, but you don’t have a clear budget and you don’t know how much you have left to spend on it, it’s sooo much easier to be led by your emotions.
If you don’t set up these systems ahead of time, the rational side of you will have nothing to work with when your emotional side is screaming “buy buy buy!!!” or “sell sell sell!!!” (whatever the case may be).
September 28th, 2009 at 7:28 am
@thebeave: Usually I think you are right, but in the PF world that changes depending on what “stage” you are in (as defined by JD). At first, its alot more simple math (no way to get around your income having to exceed your spending, right?) then its almost all mental (not spending, changing lifestyle, etc.), then its more balanced (though the math becomes harder :))
I applaud JD’s article, but we *all* have to remember that you just cant take the math out of it.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:31 am
This article summarized many conversations I’ve had with my broke friends! While my family has followed the path advocated by you and Dave Ramsey, many of our friends have allowed their emotions and their “I want it now” attitudes to run their life.
Don’t get me wrong, we’ve made plenty of immature financial mistakes along the way. But today we are debt-free (other than our mortgage), sitting on a sizable emergency fund and getting ready to buy our next car for cash.
I actually just wrote a blog post giving guidance about buying your first house. I fully expect to hear criticism that I am advocating too conservative of an approach. I’ll just continue to fight the good fight and try to help people see where they could make better decisions with their finances and in their marriage (and help them see how the two are connected).
September 28th, 2009 at 7:38 am
I love the debt snowball concept, which I first read about on GRS. My husband didn’t quite get it at first but hey, I pay the bills;)
Nowadays, I’m “practicing mindfulness” regarding my purchases…I only wish I didn’t get into the pattern of “retail therapy” years ago! What a dangerous phrase!
September 28th, 2009 at 7:46 am
I had to automate my bill paying, or I never would have caught up on paying them. I’m often either too lazy/frustrated/busy to pay my bills - thank goodness for automated systems!
September 28th, 2009 at 7:49 am
All good tips, JD. And it is so true regarding the debt snowball. I only had 2 debts (now paying down the second), but I found that eliminating the smaller one faster really gave me the boost I needed to tackle my larger, higher interest debt. I find the less debts you have to worry about, the easier it is. And I 100% agree with the idea that if people were rational, they wouldn’t get into debt in the first place.
I find avoiding temptation works, too. One thing I like to do is leave my credit cards at home. I’ve done this for the past year or so and it definitely makes you think about purchases a lot more. I don’t even miss my credit cards, and I think when I get out of debt, I might still leave the cards at home!
I also try to think on purchases for a few days. I really liked this coat that was $120 - not all that much, but too much for someone in debt. I was going to buy it because it looked great and was a good price, but I told myself that if I REALLY wanted it, I could come back for it. Did I end up buying it? Nope.
Looking forward to the rest of this series.
September 28th, 2009 at 8:29 am
The big learning from your post is that just having adequate knowledge is not enough to manage your money. You also need to be aware of your attitudes, values, motives, self confidence to manage your money.
The question I have is: “What would be the attitude, motives, values competencies for effective money management?
I can think of a few like risk taking ability, ability to analyse opportunities, long term orientation, etc.
September 28th, 2009 at 8:41 am
I used to spend a decent amount of money when I was stressed about things. For example, night before the ACT I went to a few stores and spent about $60. Not a ton, but some of it was unnecesary. Now I try to recognize this and control it. Instead of going and buying a bunch of stuff, I might just treat myself to a chipotle burrito or a DQ Blizzard and go watch a dvd I bought but never used.
The key is to identify our habits with money and control them. Not necesarily cut them out (tho I think the guy who quit online games made a good choice) but minimize the “damage.”
September 28th, 2009 at 8:45 am
JD - I’m surprised that you would encourage people to use and adblocker with their browser. If too many people do that, how will you earn a living? I’m not being sarcastic and I’m not trying to be rude. But you don’t charge your readers so how else can you earn money? (Of course I have to admit, I’m a daily reader and I never click through any ads. I hope this doesn’t make me a free-loader!!)
September 28th, 2009 at 8:59 am
This is the quality writing and deep thinking that will take you from blog to book. Books are something we return to again and again because of the depth of their truisms. Blogs don’t always hit that high a mark. Keep up the strong writing!
September 28th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I’m glad you look at emotions as well as math.
But in my case, I didn’t get into debt because of irrationality; I did it because of ignorance. I didn’t realize there were alternatives. It never occurred to me it could be possible to go to college without student loans. It took me a while to learn that ten-year-old cars can be reliable. That thrift stores have just as many things I like as malls do (not many). That certain kinds of things can be fixed instead of trashed. That some things we pay others for aren’t that hard to do well ourselves.
Thank goodness I learned in school how to read and how to do math, so I can read the fine print, compare interest rates of loans and understand their costs.
I have had some areas of irrationality (many, but only a few in finance) such as not paying for rare things with good return (such as climbing to the top of the Arc D’Triomph or getting any really cool decorative things for my house besides wall hangings) and such as buying something I didn’t really want much because someone gave me money. But mostly I’d rather just learn about more alternatives.
It’s still good to reduce my exposure to advertising (showing me only the most expensive alternatives). To avoid temptation (showing me the expensive alternatives). To automate (so I don’t forget). To practice mindfulness (to remind myself of my priorities and see where my current ideas fit in before jumping into action). To read (to find more alternatives).
Another idea is to expose yourself to the ideas that are good for you (good peer pressure). I periodically re-read The Tightwad Gazette when I need to inoculate myself from advertising, for example.
September 28th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Great post, JD! We each recognize ourselves in what you’ve written. My strategy is to stay out of clothing stores - if I feel I “need” something I write it down to shop for at a later date. Generally when I look at the list later, I no longer have a desire for the item. It’s truly about mind games - if we can disrupt the thought patterns we have, we can triumph over those thoughts/desires.
A recent trick of mine is to ask myself, will having this item make me feel better about myself? Will not having it make me feel worse about myself? Try it!
September 28th, 2009 at 9:30 am
You are so right about the advertising.’
I consider myself an intellectual, immune from cultural pressure. However, when we moved into our current home, it still had cable television. I never realized how much advertising affects you, even when you KNOW what the point of advertising is. I would be watching television, see a pizza advertisement and crave a pizza.
Fortunately, it was turned off a few month after we moved in. Now I wonder why I just didn’t leave it off or disconnect it….
Currently, we have no cable and the thought of paying for television causes shudders up our spines.
September 28th, 2009 at 9:34 am
I am amazed at how much less I desire stuff since we cutout cable. We’ve gone without TV for almost a year now and I have no desire to buy anything! Thank goodness my wife grocery shops!!
Remove the ad’s and you will be shocked at how much they were controlling you…
September 28th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Great post. I hope more people start to understand that it’s not as easy as “stop buying” or “stop eating junk food.” The sooner they get that, the sooner they’ll be on the right road.
September 28th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Good post; I especially like the point that debt is most often a psychological problem.
Have you visited the personal-finance website Five Cent Nickel? Just came across it and it seems pretty good.
http://www.fivecentnickel.com
September 28th, 2009 at 10:24 am
A lot of money is the mindset, the whole act of shopping is a created mindset, and then buying more expensive items. that is where big money is spent on marketing.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:41 am
JD,
I’m glad to see this type of article. This is exactly what we need to hear in this consumption based society. Nothing wrong with consumption but we need to pay attention to what we buy.
Keep up the good work.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:44 am
I stole this paragraph from Arron Swartz’ blog (http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/). He in turn is quoting “General Theory of Employment, Money, and Interest” by John Maynard Keynes:
It’s not 100% applicable to this post, but I think it’s interesting in the context of your friends’ consumption stories at the top of the post.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:44 am
we live in a service society - that is most jobs rely on consumer spending, like comic books, togo foods, cellphones, books, clothing, magazines, etc.. Most if not all consumer spending is derived from wants, as opposed to needs. What happens to our economic axis once most spenders switch to savers?
September 28th, 2009 at 10:45 am
@Kevin (#25): I thought ad blockers only banned pop-up ads. I don’t think JD uses any pop-ups. Your post reminded me that JD does rely a lot on advertising income… maybe I will click his ads more often to show my gratitude for his site
In my opinion, advertising in general affects everyone - no matter what people say. You can control what you buy, however. I got myself into spending trouble in the past, but I have wised up and only buy what I really want, and know when to stop.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Heh.. it’s so true that removing the ads removes the temptation. I haven’t owned a TV for 5 years now, plus I use Ad Blocker on my browser. I don’t go to the mall unless I absolutely have to (like for an eye appointment at Sears). I get almost no advertising, and thus, I buy very little. I also track every penny I spend, which is extremely helpful (everyone should do this.. it’s very eye-opening).
Great article.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
“But it’s not rational to buy clothes at Baby Gap instead of at Goodwill.”
Having just had to break down and do some real kid shopping after several years of just Goodwill and hand-me-downs for the kids.
Actually, sometimes it *is* rational to do so, if it means getting the kid 3 decent outfits that go together instead of piddling away $3 and $4 at a time buying a selection of used clothes that send you shopping some more to make up outfits.
I’ve never used Baby Gap but we did make a run to Children’s Place for stuff that wasn’t crappy– the girl is now wearing her clothes long enough for them to wear out, and Children’s place has these great expandable/reducible waistbands. Which for a kid who is size 10-12 in lengths but 6 in the waist…
Anyway, I think you’ve posted about this before: that *sometimes*, but only sometimes, one or two high quality new basics in something are a better deal than getting used/low quality stuff if you have to buy in quantity.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Great post. I certainly agree about taking back the brain. If we can train our minds to block out adverts and be mindfulness about any purchase, then I think we are well on the way.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Nice post JD. If you haven’t read “THE NUMBER”, go for it. It’s a great read, and talks all about the mind of money.
The longer I live, the more I realize education is key.
Cheers
September 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
@ebyt (#37):
Your assumption is wrong. Adblockers for web browsers prevent most ads from loading even in the original page. When loading images for a web page, the adblocker will check to see if they come from a long list of known advertising sites, and if so, will simply not display the image.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Great post! I’m looking forward to the next 12, too.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Actually, buying children’s clothing retail isn’t a bad idea, if you do what my sister did. At the end of each season, she’d go to Baby Gap and buy the kids t-shirts or turtlenecks…in the size she knew they’d be in the following year, and put them away. She’d pay $3-5 for a brand new t-shirt at the Gap in August/September, to be used the following spring/summer. She also knew what day of the week the various stores would rotate and mark down their stock. So if she saw something she liked on the front rack at full price, she’d know when it would be moved and marked down to a price she was willing to pay. Obviously she sometimes lost out on an item, but I don’t ever remember her being upset at missing out.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
@Jenne 39: All you have to do is buy BabyGap items FROM Goodwill! That’s the trick.
When you shop at thrift stores, you don’t buy stuff just because it’s cheap. You find high quality items that also happen to be cheap. That’s the beauty of it. It’s not like other things where you have to buy something expensive to get good quality. I shop almost exclusively at thrift shops and 90% of the items I buy are brands like Gap, LL Bean, The Limited, etc.
Most thrift stores have huge racks of every color clothing. So I’ve never found that buying from thrift stores causes me to go shop elsewhere to buy things to make ‘outfits’. I don’t have kids, but as a kid, I don’t think I knew what an ‘outfit’ was. I just made sure I had on a shirt and pants every day.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@quinsy 45:
I don’t have kids but I’ve noticed that the thrift stores in my area (notably Goodwill) have outrageous prices! You can do better by buying on sale at places like old navy, gap, target, etc. I’m in SF Bay Area, btw.
I do know that your money goes toward vocational training but just making a point that prices vary around the country…
September 28th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I’ve always wondered, before the days of credit cards, lines of credit, payday loans, over draft protection if people had these same “addictions.” Would there be a closet full of clothes, or daily trips to the mall or a gaming addiction. I mean, when the well is dry, it’s dry. Right?
September 28th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Yardsales, my people, yardsales for children’s clothes and others. I nearly had a heart attack when I walked into the Motherhood store and the cheapest thing on their clearance rack was twenty dollars. I went to a yardsale and bought several pieces for two dollars per piece. I don’t see paying a lot of money for something I’m only going to need for a few months at a time or something that a kid is going to outgrow or destroy in even less time.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
@Tyler (42): Interesting! That must suck for those relying on advertising income.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Frugality is a mindset–a very shaky one at that. You have to have the mindset or it just won’t work. Great post.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I just wanna put this out there. I think you should write an article on how older (children) T.V. shows used to talk about economics, credit cards , and debt.For example
Dinosaurs ( remember “I’m the baby gotta love me” ?). Rocko’s Modern Life’s first episode “Who Give$ a Buck” is about credit card debt. Check out Dinosaurs Season 3 Episode 13, lol WeSaySo corporation fires all of the tree pushers and it talks about recession. I think there was an episode of Sesame street that talks bout the economy some as well.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@people worried about JD’s income:
The generally accepted rule is don’t click on the ads unless you are interested in whatever is being advertised. Clicks that game the system can cause people to be thrown out of ad programs.
Thinking about advertising reminds me that everyone is affected by it. I usually guess that people who claim not to be affected are kidding themselves. I try and avoid ads, but I believe that Orange are the best mobile phone company and have done for 10 years - based on no hard evidence, just influenced by their adverts.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
This gets under my skin, so I’ll post trying to stay as “rational” as possible. Namely, the idea that somehow, it’s more virtuous to go shop at thrift stores (especially for something like children’s clothes).
There are lower-cost alternatives to Baby Gap without going to Goodwill where you can buy new. Like Target and (gasp) Wal-Mart.
It comes down to this — it’s a PERSONAL CHOICE whether to shop at thrift stores. It works for some people. It doesn’t for others. That doesn’t make one person more “rational” than the other. Yes, I’m offended by that choice of language. It’s really poor wording. I thought this site was all about personal choice in finance.
Personally, it would never happen for me to shop for clothing at thrift stores by choice. Just not going to happen. I GIVE my clothing to thrift stores. I do NOT shop there. I made choices in my life to insure that I wouldn’t have to shop at thrift stores if I didn’t want to. I DON’T WANT TO!!! That doesn’t mean I’m extravagent. It does not mean I’m IRRATIONAL. I am very good at buying new clothes on sale, and I don’t buy clothes very often.
If you want to buy clothing for yourself or your children at Goodwill, I really don’t care. But don’t dare tell me you’re more RATIONAL because you do so. You aren’t.
September 28th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
@Gina (#53)
I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying that it’s bad or wrong that a person elects to shop at Baby Gap instead of Goodwill. And I’m not one who believes that everyone should shop at thrift stores. I understand that many people have no desire to do so.
But that’s my point. From a strictly mathematical perspective — a “rational” viewpoint — it doesn’t make sense to do anything else. It makes sense to buy quality clothes at the lowest prices possible, and a thrift store is the best way to do that.
You’re right that there are other ways to buy affordable clothing. No question. My point was that those parents who choose to clothe their toddlers in gear from Baby Gap (and I know some of these people) are not making decisions based on math. They’re making decisions based on emotion and psychology.
Perhaps “rational” was a poor word choice because its connotations can overwhelm its denotations. But it’s what I meant.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
JD, your response to Gina is simply not right. It might be, if the only value you have is maximal quality with minimal price, but you’re also often exchanging a good deal of time and variety by shopping at thrift stores. If I make $35 per hour and spend half an hour at a thrift store rifling through clothes to find what I want rather than 5 minutes running into the gap to get exactly what I want, opportunity costs are involved. My time might be better spent doing other things. Perhaps this is more complex than you want to get on the blog, but your use of “mathematical” and “rational” do imply something that you may not intend.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
@B (#55)
You’re right, of course. The time factor is important. But you’re also right that this is a more complex calculus than I had intended for this particular post!
The lesson is that I should be more careful, more precise with both my language and examples. I do my best, but sometimes I let something through…
September 28th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I’d always thought that one of the big advantages of having money–if you can control the emotional part of having it–would be to have simplicity in life. That would mean doing without a bunch of things.
In fact, I’d think that simplicity would be a major financial goal for a lot of people.
How cool would it be to have control of your finances, but not have a lot of stuff to worry about and control what you do?
September 28th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
For me, it’s not only about getting a lower price, but also about making lifestyle choices that follow my belief structure.
It’s fine if other people want to shop in other places. I just will not patronize Walmart, Target or a plethora of other large companies, but that’s just me.
I like that I can support the local economy, contribute to work training programs for the educably mentally disabled and recycle at the same time.
However, I do not run my life from a strictly mathematical point of view. I will pay extra for food from local farmers who I know farm in a way I approve of. It’s all about what is important to you…not what is mathematically sound.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
@B,
The time value of money argument is misleading. It suggests that a person making $35 per hour would use work time (without pay) to shop at Goodwill, whereas in reality most people would shop around the working hours, when they are earning nothing.
“Time is money” is really only valid when the time spent results in a net loss of money. Outside of working hours, the opportunity cost generally doesn’t represent a dollar value, it represents a “I could be doing something else” value.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
@ Mike
Yup. I don’t take off of work to go shop at Goodwill. Your money is only worth what you get paid when someone is willing to pay you for it….unless you are self-employed, but that’s a different story all together.
Amy Daczyzyn explores that in the Tightwad Gazette.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Amen, brother! Change in your finances only comes after change in your behavior, and so many folks totally underestimate that. This is something we seem to post about a lot and may deserve even more time. No feature on any credit card, no gimmick at your bank, no quick way out scheme is a substitute for behavior modification.
Advertising is an amazing thing. I’ve studied consumer behavior and applied those principles in various situations and found them successful. Conversely, when we only allowed our daughter to watch commercial-free TV (PBS Kids, Noggin), this amazing thing happened. Errr, didn’t happen - she didn’t beg for toys and cereal and all the other junk they push on kids.
An advancement in years doesn’t change the affect of advertising on people.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Great post, but I still disagree with Ramsey’s suggestion to pay down smaller debts first. I understand the psychology of it, but a huge part of my falling hopelessly into debt was that I was not rational about my spending. Once I became rational, it then made sense to me to pay down the ones with the highest interest rates first.
September 28th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
@yourfinances101 #62.
You raise a valid point. And, it’s one that I’ve wondered about. I think that once someone makes a strong commitment to pay off debt, it doesn’t really matter how they do it. Dave Ramsey says that the snowball method is better than paying the highest debt first. But how does he back up his claim. In reality, he doesn’t have to back it up. He just has to sell that concept to others. And he has done so quite successfully.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I am with you on the grocery thing. I spend so much on groceries! I have been on a mission to undo this though….after learning some great advice in Jessica V. Psalidas’ latest book, “Financial Purity.” I am now learning about what vices have been stealing my money and how to make changes.
September 29th, 2009 at 2:21 am
I am sure that I am in control of my behavior around money, but the main problem is my wife. She is a shop addict and she is also addicted to commercials. I still cannot believe that some educated person can believe those stupid TV commercials. And she believes in almost any.
I cannot make her read any book or article about money saving or do anything that would change her attitude. So I hope that in next articles you will cover topics about how can we influence others to act right.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:22 am
@Ed #63
If you asked Dave, he would likely agree with you - “once someone makes a strong commitment to pay off debt, it doesn’t really matter how they do it”. He teaches the Debt Snowball because it is the most effective method from a standpoint of actually completing it.
In The Total Money Makeover he likens debt reduction to weight loss. If your first weight loss goal is to lose 30 lbs, then you are not very likely to succeed, even if you have the weight to lose. It’s just too lofty of a goal. Now if your first goal is to lose 3 lbs, then 5 more, then 5 more, then 10…. psychologically these goals are more attainable and after some quick wins, you’ll gain confidence and will be more likely to continue the plan. The Debt Snowball is no different.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:31 am
Thank you for this post, after I had lost three pregnancies in a row, I went out of control with my spending.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:22 am
I could not agree more with you. The academic community also agrees with you which is why behavioral finance has become such a big academic field. In a comment on another blog I compared shopaholics to other people who suffer from addictions, who experience similar highs and lows and who find it difficult to break the habit.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:53 am
completely agree with advertising. i completely want an iphone. i will not, will not, will not watch the commercials. since we currently have a dvr i zip right past them. i love new geeky things - they are one of my downfalls.
also, some how i stupidly gave the lasik company my personal email. i plan on getting lasik some day. when we’re out of debt and i can pay cash. but when that email showed up for one split second i fantasized about having it done now. i had to immediately delete that email.
September 29th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Agree with advertising. I put on a thick face and try to block it out even though it’s very hard to do. Thanks for the post
September 29th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Psychology of money is a great topic. Making decisions on how much money to spend on your kids is heavy with one’s own emotional baggage. Showing up at the first day of kindergarten with so many kids decked out in the most perfect little eco-friendly, cool outfits is hardest on the parent. There is more pressure to keep up with other parents than for kids to keep up with their friends.
Many of us are super-frugal in all aspects of life except our kids. I’m willing to spend all kinds of money on things that will give my child an opportunity in life (music lessons, language lessons, etc.), but I clamp down on spending on stuff.
My greatest frugal kid coup: my neighbor loves to shop for her daughter who is one year older than mine. Twice a year, when she cleans out the closets, I willingly pay her $50 for all the hand-me-downs I want. Often there are more than I could possibly use. I get to pay $100 for an entire years worth of clothes. Nice.
September 29th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
@JD:
One thing you would have to convince me of, is that Goodwill is actually delivering “maximal quality” at “minimal price” as opposed to Baby Gap. I would contend that it does not, and cannot ever. Simply because by default, something that is used is going to have already had it’s “maximal quality” diminished relative to something brand new.
Let me state it this way. You buy a onesie at Baby Gap for $20. You go to Goodwill and find the same exact onesie for $1. You are saying it is rational to buy the Goodwill one.
I contend it is not. It’s still an emotional decision. Because the Goodwill one is used. It’s had some of its utilitarian value diminished already because it’s used. Maybe it’s stained. Maybe seams or hems are a little frayed. Maybe there is nothing visibly flawed about it, but it still has been used and therefore it still does not have comparable value to when it was sitting brand new in the Baby Gap store.
When you shop at Goodwill, you are still employing a set of emotional and psychological criteria to your purchase.
Now, if you leave Baby Gap, go into JC Penney, and find the same onsie selling brand new for $15 — THEN you have the opportunity to make the rational choice. Because the “maximal quality” there is comparable to what’s at Baby Gap.
September 29th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
@Gina
Ummm, if you ever shopped in a Goodwill you would find there are many items that still have their pricetags on them. Most people don’t shop for used onesies anyway. I guess you have to enjoy the hunt to enjoy shopping at thrift stores. My MIL once bought a brand new pair of shoes (suggested retail $150) for $5 and our dining room table was found at one for a measly 10 bucks. Personally, I think anyone who pays $20 for one onesie is insane. You can get a whole pack at Target for under $15. Babies just stain them anyway.
The problem with shopping at thrift stores now is that so many more people are doing it because of the economy and more people are holding onto their stuff there is less to choose from. When all my debt is gone I will still shop at thrift stores.
September 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
@Gina
$20 for a onesie? Seriously, they grow out of them in like 4 minutes. We’ve always outfitted our kids in used clothes, believe me - no one suffered. Besides, leave the Baby Gap and Gymboree stuff for relatives to buy.
We sold a bunch of kids clothes at a garage sale last month. Some of those will be on their 4th or 5th kid, and there is plenty of life left in those.
September 29th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
@Gina,
JD gave you a reasonable explanation. Let it go. Nobody is judging you as irrational. He did not mean it.
It amounts to being a trade off.
Buy at thrift store = function of (opportunity cost, wear n tear, …)*SAVINGS*MINDSET.
Mindset is part of the Math !!!
September 29th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Although I am admittedly one of those people that sometimes like to point out where the math could be better when it comes to Dave Ramsey I do very much agree with your premise that good money management involves correct thinking and a correct mindset as well as the correct numbers.
September 30th, 2009 at 2:17 am
Families fighting over mone from estates is so terrible. Those battles never end
September 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am
For the record, I’ve never bought a onsie — I have no children. I don’t know what a reasonable price is for onsies. Maybe I should have said $5 at Baby Gap.
But, I will not let it go — he’s not excused for his rational comment. You may or may not be able to find brand new things at a thrift store. If you do, more power to you and sure then it’s the “rational” choice. If you are buying it USED at a thrift store, there is no way you can claim “maximal quality” as your criteria for feeling you’ve made a rational choice. It’s a ridiculous assertion.
That is my point. Shop thrift stores all you want. Stop feeling superior over it. You aren’t. You aren’t inherently more virtuous because you go to Goodwill instead of retail. (You also aren’t more inherently virtuous because you shop retail instead of Goodwill.) At Goodwill you’re there with the intent of buying USED stuff for cheaper than NEW, unless it’s your lucky day and you find new stuff at Goodwill. But you can’t count on finding the new stuff.
Just be honest about it.
September 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am
@ Mr NotTheJet:
I get the whole “kids grow out of it in a minute” argument, and it’s great that you are passing your clothes on to the nth child since it’s still got life in it. That isn’t my complaint at all.
Actually I think my point is humans NEVER behave rationally, we always behave emotionally. There are always value judgements in play. We delude ourselves if we think otherwise.
September 30th, 2009 at 10:04 am
@ Gina
Nah, you really weren’t far off when you said $20
September 30th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
I’m sorry to sound dense, but I’m a little confused. How is buying used not maximizing value? I mean, my used stuff seems to last as long as my new stuff. Including the clothes. At the very least having bought used (or taken handmedowns) allows me to replace things more easily when they no longer fit my needs or stop being what I want. They are less to purchase up front, last as long and are less of a loss when I discard them.
I thought JD meant “irrational” in a more technical sense, not the looney tunes sense.
BTW, my neighbourhood thrift stores don’t put out ripped or stained clothes. Perhaps others are different.
October 1st, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Thanks for a great article - I look forward to reading the rest of the series.
I wholeheartedly agree with the ‘mental’ side of money… that would be why I created the Money Mindset Mob!
Even though I’m not stunning at mathematics, at least I can learn to understand my numbers (and what emotions they raise for me).
Smiles,
Stuart
October 26th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
WELL SAID!!! This article really helped me out - you have no idea - I’ve always felt I was smart but knew that my financial problems were not about smarts but my thinking and emotional stuff. You gave me some very very pointed help. Thank you. Mindfulness is something that I think I can use in several areas of my life - not just finances. Looking forward to the next installment.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
I think this post is right on. It’s also important to point out that in addition to practicing control and discipline when it comes to your finances, part of achieving financial success has to do with the way you think. This holds people back that would otherwise be able to achieve their goals in life and continue making progress on the road to financial prosperity.
People who are able to build wealth and accomplish the goals they set for themselves continuously think about the world differently than people who are complacent and find themselves stagnant instead of accelerating toward the life they want.
Differences in ways of thinking, such as feeling like you have control of your life vs. letting life “happen” to you, having the courage to embrace change instead of letting it hold you back, and being humble enough to constantly learn new things; are examples of mindset differences between those who will eventually have and those who will continue to have not.