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Yesterday I shared some financial tips my father gave me when I was a sophomore in college. He didn’t stop there. After I graduated, he continued to offer advice. One of the things he told me was, “Pay yourself first.” To explain, he gave me a copy of George Clason’s 1926 classic, The Richest Man in Babylon. I didn’t read it.
In retrospect, I ought to have been a little less stubborn. It took years for me to understand what “pay yourself first” really meant, and by that time, I was already in financial trouble. If I’d read The Richest Man in Babylon when I was 21 — if I’d learned to pay myself first — I might not have had $35,000 in debt by the time I was 35.
To pay yourself first means simply this: Before you pay your bills, before you buy groceries, before you do anything else, set aside a portion of your income to save. The first bill you pay each month should be to yourself. This habit, developed early, can help a person build tremendous wealth. I wish I’d understood this when I graduated from college.
Why pay yourself first?
If you’re just getting started in the Real World, saving may seem impossible. You have rent, a car payment, groceries, and maybe student loans. Sure, you’d like to save, but there’s just no money left at the end of the month. And that’s the problem: most people save what’s left over — left over after bills and after discretionary spending.
But if you don’t develop the saving habit now, there are always going to be reasons to delay: you need dental work, you want to go to Mexico with your friends, you aren’t making enough to pay your bills. Here are three reasons to start saving now instead of waiting until next year (or the year after):
- When you pay yourself first, you’re mentally establishing saving as a priority. You’re telling yourself that you are more important than the electric company or the landlord. Building savings is a powerful motivator — it’s empowering.
- Paying yourself first encourages sound financial habits. Most people spend their money in the following order: bills, fun, saving. Unsurprisingly, there’s usually little left over to put in the bank. But if you bump saving to the front — saving, bills, fun — you’re able to set the money aside before you rationalize reasons to spend it.
- By paying yourself first, you’re building a cash buffer with real-world applications. Regular steady contributions are an excellent way to build a nest egg. You can use the money to deal with emergencies. You can use it to purchase a house. You can use it to save for retirement. Paying yourself first gives you freedom — it opens a world of opportunity.
Once I developed the habit of paying myself first, I couldn’t help wishing I’d done so right out of college. I wished I had listened to my father. If I had, my spending may never have spiraled out of control.
How to pay yourself first
The best way to develop a saving a habit is to make the process as painless as possible. Make it automatic. Make it invisible. If you arrange to have the money taken from your paycheck before you receive it, you’ll never know it’s missing.
Part of your savings plan will probably include retirement, but you should also save for intermediate goals too, such as buying a house, paying for a honeymoon, or purchasing a new car. Here are three easy ways to begin doing this yourself:
- If your employer offers a retirement plan — such as a 401(k) or 457(b) account — enroll as soon as possible, especially if the company matches your contributions. Matched contributions are like free money.
- Starting a Roth IRA is one of the smartest moves a young adult can make. These accounts allow your investments to grow tax-free. Because of the extraordinary power of compound interest (and compound returns), regular investments in a Roth IRA from an early age can lead to enormous future wealth.
- Open a high interest savings account at a bank like ING Direct or FNBO Direct. Set up automatic transfers into this account, either directly from your paycheck or from your regular bank account. Treat these transfers like you’d treat any other financial obligation. This should be your first and most important bill every month.
The real barrier to developing this habit is finding money to save. Many people believe it’s impossible. But almost everyone can save at least 1% of their income. That’s only one penny out of every dollar. Some will argue that saving this little is meaningless. But if a skeptic will try to save just 1% of his income, he’ll usually discover the process is painless. Maybe next he’ll try to save 3%. Or 5%. As his saving rate increases, so his nest egg will grow.
My wife is a perfect case study. She started by having 8% of her pre-tax income set aside in her employer’s retirement plan. As her salary increased, she increased the amount she saved, routing it to various retirement accounts. Because she never saw the money in her paycheck, she never missed it. Now she saves 24% of her income, and she receives a 6% employer match! How did she do this? By paying herself first.
Further Reading
Young adults should make it a priority to develop a regular saving plan. Establishing this habit early can lead to increased financial security later in life. But even those of us who got a late start should do our best to pay ourselves first. I didn’t begin doing this until just a couple years ago. Better late than never.
Though many personal finance books briefly explore the idea of paying yourself first, David Bach’s 2003 best-seller, The Automatic Millionaire is devoted exclusively to the subject. The entire book is a step-by-step guide to developing the saving habit and making it automatic. If you’d like more ideas about how to make this work in your life, this is the place to look. Any good public library will have a copy.
This article is part of the MBN group writing project for June. Photo created exclusively for Get Rich Slowly by David Hobby of Strobist, a fantastic photography blog.

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June 16th, 2008 at 1:28 am
One of the most important issues in your financial activity is putting money aside, perhaps small amounts every month. after some time, you will find that you were able to save a significant amount of money that can be used if ever you find yourself in a difficult financial situation, or if you want to buy something that youve always dreamed of.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:19 am
I’m like you J.D., I wish I had developed the pay myself first habit earlier in life. I regret those years (between age 21 and 30) when I wasn’t doing much saving.
But, I can attest that I’ve been paying myself first since age 30 (I’m 36) and its painless. The first bill I pay each month is to our savings account (401k savings is deducted before we even get our paychecks). I’m a big fan of the automated transfer too. My savings is automatically transferred from my Wachovia checking account to ING (I have auto transfers for other savings goals too).
June 16th, 2008 at 5:41 am
“Paying yourself first” almost sounds cliche in the world of personal financial advice, but is really the basis of any good financial plan. I used to play the game of “saving” whatever was left in my account at the end of the month, but only started to really accumulate savings when I moved it right off the top at the beginning of the month.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:00 am
I would modify the advice just a bit with what some call the 10-10-80 philosophy. Give 10% to God, pay yourself 10%, and then learn to live on 80% of your income.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Great advice. I wrote the same post on the “10% method” around paying yourself first. I’ve been doing this for the last 8 years now and it is the best decision I ever made. It’s the way I built up my emergency fund, bought a car and saved for a downpayment on my house.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:10 am
“You’re telling yourself that you are more important than the electric company or the landlord.”
I love that point! Thanks, J.D.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:18 am
My fund transfers to savings and other special accounts (our joint house account, my “tiny business” account) are the only automatic deductions I make. I haven’t automated any of my bills partly because writing a check every month for the cell phone, cable, electric, etc provides a time to once again consider those bills and how much I’m spending on each — it gives them each a moment in the brain that wouldn’t necessarily happen while balancing my checkbook….
On a much smaller level, the “throw your change in a bottle” method is also a form of automatic and painless saving, it’s out of sight, out of mind, that money doesn’t get spent either.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:22 am
I really like the part about your wife saving more as her salary increased, so that she ’sees’ a steady income. It’s really easy to let your spending habits expand with your salary, without an appreciable increase in happiness, convenience, or satisfaction. I’m finishing graduate school right now, and we’ll be taking a job with a substantial pay increase over my small grad student stipend. I’m hoping to keep our spending close to where we have it currently, so that we can save a lot of that extra salary. Having a good chunk of it automatically deducted is a good idea.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:32 am
I have two daughters in their twenties who went from no job ($0.00) to a job, both are making over $30,000.00 year straight out of college.
One of them started saving monthly but has since stopped, the other has never saved and is heading down into the depths of debt. I always ask them, “What changed, that you went from $0.00 to $30,000.00 and you can’t seem to save?”
Now, I’m not naive and I know the answers, but it’s socially interesting that people have such a hard time doing this.
I WAS included in that group some 30 years ago.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Our society has such a “I want it now” thinking. If people can just develop the habit of paying themselves first they will be better off in the long run.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:48 am
Actually, it’s thanks to David Bach’s book Smart Women Finish Rich that I have started saving. I put aside 12% of every paycheck I get into my savings account. I really don’t miss it at all and I LOVE watching my savings account continue to grow (and watching my interest payments keep getting larger). I agree that it seems like it would be hard to start doing … but I am so glad that I’m starting now.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Another trick that worked for me early on, when I worked a job that paid overtime: I set anything I earned over a certain amount to be deposited into a high-yield savings account. Some weeks it would be just a little bit of my base pay, and on weeks when I wound up working a lot of extra hours, a larger amount got deposited. I was able to save a lot of money that way, without ever noticing the difference in my “spending” money. I know not all jobs have that option (my current job is salaried), but it’s something to keep in mind if you have that avenue open to you.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:09 am
“Pay yourself first” is bad advice for young people. It places the accumulation of money and wealth as a central purpose in itself. In fact, earning and saving money is something that ought to serve our real goals in life. That means borrowing money to achieve those goals is also perfectly acceptable. The problem is not that people take on debt, but what they spend it on. Getting an educations, starting a business or buying a home are all positive reasons to take on debt for many people. And that short list is hardly exhaustive. Buying a guitar, bike or golf clubs may be equally valid reasons for borrowing rather than delaying the benefits of owning those things.
In general, people will have to wait until they are older to make most of their money. But that doesn’t mean they should also wait until they are older to spend that money.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:29 am
This sounds like great advice IF you don’t already have high-interest debt.
If not, then by taking 10% off the top for savings instead, you are essentially incurring debt by inaction (through maintenance of high interest balances rather than eliminating them)…
Unless your “savings” is really an investment with a _guaranteed_ payoff higher than the interest rate on your debt, then you’re just undercutting your ability to get out of debt sooner (and stay out)… hm?
Conceptually (and mathematically), every bit of cash I sit on in savings is like having taken a long-term cash advance out of the credit cards just to deposit it in my bank account “in case”.
So I suppose in this case, “pay myself first” means “get myself out of debt first”, before even considering using money on non-critical needs.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:42 am
@Ross,
Your advice reflects the poor money management skills and attitude that have led people deep into debt, including being in over their heads with the recent mortgage problems.
Yes, debt is necessary for certain things but the attitude of “I’ll make money later to cover these expenses” is just crazy!
Saving money isn’t about making money a central purpose in itself, it’s about being able to buy that guitar, bike or golf club without paying loan interest on it and about being able to handle unexpected turbulence in life.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I began paying myself a few months ago and I’m hooked. I’m also going to take advantage of the free bill pay service offered by my bank to address some lingering credit card and other debt.
Since my wife and I get paid on alternating weeks, we can send small weekly amounts to our creditors before we have a change to spend it. $12.50 is a small amount, but x 4 its $50 bucks a month and $600 bucks a year. These small amounts on low or no interest debt make sense to us in these trying economic times.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Ross, I have heard your argument before, mostly from economists who believe in having a constant ‘utility’ or happiness throughout your lifetime, even though your salary is not constant. All of these arguments seem to be ignoring the uncertainty of the future. Certainly if you know exactly how much you will earn and when, you could well be justified in borrowing against that future income to buy your golf clubs. While you can hedge against many kinds of uncertainties with insurance, there is still a good possibility that your future earnings (or needs) will not match up well with your expectations. If you find yourself downsized out of a job, or your car breaks down on you, you may find that there are better uses for your money than golf clubs. Of course I guess you could borrow more and more money to pay for these unexpected expenses, but digging yourself out of that kind of hole is not fun and is wasteful (due to the interest payments).
Unexpected rainy days are one of the primary reasons that I save money. Being able to retire and live comfortably off of those savings down the road is a bonus.
Certainly there are valid reasons to borrow, and I would venture to say that most of the readers here have or have had a mortgage for their house. Borrowing for education, if you need to, is also a good idea, I think. If you are really strapped for cash, there may come a need when you have to borrow some money to buy a vehicle to take you to your place of employment. Beyond these, however, I would have a very difficult time justifying a loan. Particularly with some of the example you gave about guitars, golf clubs and the like, why not just exercise a little self-discipline and wait a few months until you have the money to buy it outright? It’s the ‘borrow now for anything you feel like you want or need’ philosophy that you espouse that is the cause of all the consumer debt today.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Hi JD,
Awesome advice as usual :o) Thanks a bunch!
I got my husband and a few friends hooked up in your blog as well and they can’t thank me enough :o)
Btw, since you’ve mentioned David Bach’s book, I wanna ask you what you think about his online money management tool- “Automatic Money Manager”. I’m still trying to play around it (they have a 30-day trial) and so far I’m liking it. I haven’t seen that much reviews about it so I thought maybe you’ve already tried it or some of your readers here might be able to share what they think about AMM.
Thanks again and more power to you!
June 16th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Thanks for posting this, it is an excellent reminder of this principle. I am doing it already (mostly thanks to this blog), but it reminded me to consider upping my monthly contribution to high-interest savings. I also sent it on to my younger sister.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:13 am
“Your advice reflects the poor money management skills and attitude that have led people deep into debt”
I don’t think so. They reflect an understanding that debt is a valuable tool that can be abused. Your advice reflects learning the wrong lesson from abusing credit - that it was using credit that was a poor choice, rather than how that credit was used.
“including being in over their heads with the recent mortgage problems.”
Nothing I said suggested that people should borrow more than they can afford. You article wasn’t about abusing credit, it was an argument for young people to save money rather than spending it on things to make their lives better.
“Saving money isn’t about making money a central purpose in itself”
Its not? Some people seem to disagree:
“it’s thanks to David Bach’s book Smart Women Finish Rich that I have started saving. I put aside 12% of every paycheck I get into my savings account. I really don’t miss it at all and I LOVE watching my savings account continue to grow”
If you “LOVE” watching your savings account grow, how do you ever spend it? And I might point out Smart Women Finish Dead, just like the rest of us.
s about being able to buy that guitar, bike or golf club without paying loan interest on it
There are a lot of people who pass up the opportunities life presents with plans for retirement. Unfortunately many people aren’t able to learn to play the guitar, ride a bike or golf by the time they retire.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:27 am
The Automatic Millionaire was what first turned me on to this idea and the power of compounding in general. I’m glad I took the time to read that book cover to cover.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:39 am
I started a company that lets anybody in your circle of friends and family gift directly into your child’s 529 plan. So instead of another Barbie Doll or shirt from the Gap people can gift into your child’s plan. It’s a simple site and concept that helps people save for college and give meaningful gifts. The site is http://www.freshmanfund.com
I also write a blog on saving for college the site is http://www.giftingforcollege.com
June 16th, 2008 at 10:46 am
@nbdean
Particularly with some of the example you gave about guitars, golf clubs and the like
I chose them because a lot of the “no credit” argument is really moralizing about how it is used and the values people have. Education and house are “important” while “guitar, bike or golf clubs” aren’t. But that is a values judgment. For instance, I borrowed money to buy a bike while driving a a series of junkers.
Particularly with some of the example you gave about guitars, golf clubs and the like, why not just exercise a little self-discipline and wait a few months until you have the money to buy it outright?
What does “self-discipline” have to do with it. Buying it on credit is a financial decision - is it worth the extra cost in interest? Its no different than buying a more expensive version.
It’s the ‘borrow now for anything you feel like you want or need’ philosophy that you espouse that is the cause of all the consumer debt today.
No, the cause of consumer debt is that credit card companies stopped paying any attention to making sure people could afford the payments before they issued credit. But that is their problem.
People usually get in over their heads because they don’t make good decisions about how they spend money and that includes accumulating more debt than they can afford.
Unexpected rainy days are one of the primary reasons that I save money.
That is certainly a reason to make sure you have financial resources available, including lines of credit. But, at its most extreme, that’s what bankruptcy courts were created to handle and those credit card companies are the losers.
Security becomes increasingly important as you have more people depending on you and/or more to lose, but young people shouldn’t live their lives with security as their first priority.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Other than a reasonable car debt, I’ve never had a debt in my life.
My attitude reflects being a recent college grad and seeing friends screw up their lives through the type of debt you’re suggesting.
If you don’t have money for something you can’t afford it. That’s the definition of can’t afford, which is exactly what you are suggesting.
Eg. The car I bought which I took a loan out for:
We took out a loan because I didn’t have enough money for it. The dealership and I both operated under the assumption and plan that over the long term (the 5 year term of the loan) I would make enough money to pay it back, but that’s not a guarantee.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am
@ Ross Williams
““Pay yourself first” is bad advice for young people. It places the accumulation of money and wealth as a central purpose in itself.”
I don’t think JD considers it bad advice. Why is teaching young people to save a bad thing, exactly? I didn’t realize you could save but NOT spend any money on hobbies / recreational activities. If you save, there’s a significantly better chance you won’t HAVE to borrow and be in debt. Thus, you can have your cake and eat it too.
Just my 2 cents. I’m from the Dave Ramsey school of thought- avoid debt whenever possible. I agree w/ Rich- if you can’t afford it, then either you save for it or don’t buy it. Not enough people saving and too many people spending what they don’t have one reason why America is in poor financial shape.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:29 am
@ Ross Williams:
“Buying a guitar, bike or golf clubs may be equally valid reasons for borrowing rather than delaying the benefits of owning those things.”
You use examples of recreational activities as valid reasons to go into “managed” debt. Unfortunately, there’s no such thing as managed debt and risk-free borrowing. Fortunately, however, there are multiple free and inexpensive opportunities for recreation and personal gratification that don’t put future financial stability (and the concurrent stresses and LACK of recreation) at risk.
Like guitar and music? Join a choir. Find free summer concerts. Or if the guitar is important, offer to volunteer at a music store or with a local teacher and bank/barter your time to save up and purchase a guitar (a friend’s doing this now with the fiddle. It can definitely be done). Rent golf clubs as a monthly treat to yourself while saving up for buying your own. Reach out to your network and see if friends have clubs that are underutilized. Spend your Saturdays caddying at the club and see what you can gain.
Be creative, develop a fulfilling recreational life at minimal price, and manage to secure your future as well. This isn’t an either/or proposition.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:31 am
If you don’t have money for something you can’t afford it. That’s the definition of can’t afford, which is exactly what you are suggesting.
Credit is just something more to afford.
The dealership and I both operated under the assumption and plan that over the long term (the 5 year term of the loan) I would make enough money to pay it back
I doubt it. If the car dealer actually made the loan, they probably have already sold it. The only question for them was whether your credit would allow them to find a buyer. And the question for you was whether you could “afford” the payment and was the car worth the cost, including the interest. And that is all credit is, another part of the cost of buying something.
Not enough people saving and too many people spending what they don’t have one reason why America is in poor financial shape.
Actually, since consumer spending makes up a huge portion of the economy, its probably the only thing that has kept the economy afloat.
My attitude reflects being a recent college grad and seeing friends screw up their lives through the type of debt you’re suggesting.
I’ve known a few people who have been stunned to discover that having never bought anything on credit, they had no credit when they “needed” it.
You may be surprised in a couple years when those college friends who were in so much trouble have found good paying jobs, paid off their credit cards and bought a house and new car on credit. They will probably be paying off their student loans and taking the deduction off their taxes. In short, they will be making responsible use of credit.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:41 am
I would rate “pay yourself first” as the best financial advice after “spend less than you earn.” Obviously you need to pay off any high interest debt first, and you can’t be saving with one hand while running up credit card bills with the other. But once you get a handle on your spending, automating saving really kicks it into high gear.
I’ve never been in debt but it wasn’t until I read The Wealthy Barber and started taking 20% off the top that I really built up any savings. Previously while I didn’t spend more than I earned, I still spent almost all of what I earned. In two years of paying myself first I’ve saved twice as much as I did in the previous 31 years.
June 16th, 2008 at 11:51 am
“Actually, since consumer spending makes up a huge portion of the economy, its probably the only thing that has kept the economy afloat.”
Frankly, it’s not my responsibility to keep the consumer economy afloat. The consumer economy won’t do anything to help pay for my wedding, put a kid through school, or afford a sensible retirement plan once I’ve stopped working.
“I’ve known a few people who have been stunned to discover that having never bought anything on credit, they had no credit when they “needed” it.”
That’s why I save for what I can afford, put it on the card, and pay it off in full, every month. The card is a tool to build a credit history, not unnecessary debt. A guitar valued at $200 shouldn’t cost you $600 when accounting for interest. Maybe it is $600 worth of fun, but you could have saved, bought a $600 face value instrument, and had real resale opportunity instead.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
@Ross
I still think that spending money you don’t have is illogical and irresponsible.
I save money each month, keep out of debt and am building a solid credit history. If you treat your credit card like a debit card (spend only what you have) you’ll have credit when you need it.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
If you treat your credit card like a debit card (spend only what you have) you’ll have credit when you need it.
You are still borrowing money - albeit its a free, short term loan.
I still think that spending money you don’t have is illogical and irresponsible.
And I think you are wrong. As do most home owners and almost every business in the world. The way most people get rich is spending other people’s money.
Previously while I didn’t spend more than I earned, I still spent almost all of what I earned
Apparently on things you didn’t really value. That, not that you didn’t save the money, was the mistake.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Rent golf clubs as a monthly treat to yourself while saving up for buying your own.
How is paying a monthly rental superior to making payments on your own clubs?
A guitar valued at $200 shouldn’t cost you $600 when accounting for interest.
At 15% annual interest a $200 guitar costs about $2.50 per month. It would take a long time to get to $600 at that rate.
It seems there is an effort by some people to make debt into a moral issue. It isn’t. Its just a business transaction.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
As a middle aged adult I am learning how to save all over again. When growing up my dad taught me how to save but little else when it came to budgets and bills. So when I got married I had to learn all about living on a paycheck with rent and other bills. I had long since then forgotten how to save. Now I am slowly getting back into saving again.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
J.D.:
What’s the perfect formula for saving and investing? Meaning, if 20% of your take home goes into your savings, then is another 5% invested in retirement accounts? Or within that 20%, is 12% of it dropped into a 401(k) and the remaining 8% into a savings?
How does everyone else configure this?
June 16th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
@ Ross Williams:
The way most people get rich is spending other people’s money.
You’re right - a lot of people do get rich by borrowing money for an investment. However, you’ve failed to cite the millions of people who borrow money on a daily basis with the same intention only to wind up deep in debt.
You always hear success stories of the people who’ve profited from borrowed money, but very rarely do the losers speak up. If all of the less fortunate borrowers were to share their stories, I believe, without a doubt, that we’d find out that a majority of people who borrow money for investment purposes fail to succeed and are stuck with the debt.
So JD has made an excellent point about trying to avoid spending money you don’t have. Statistically speaking, it’s the safest way to build wealth - hence the “Get Rich Slowly” philosophy.
June 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
@ Katrina R:
I loosely follow “The 60% Solution” described by Richard Jenkins here:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/ASimplerWayToSaveThe60Solution.aspx
You may find it is a good place to start. I say “loosely” because we’ve reduced our monthly expenses down to 25% of our income, so we’ve had to significantly increase the amount of money going towards savings; but for a few months, 60% was a good place to start.
Hope that helps!
June 16th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
My wife and I were feeling down about all the bills that were coming our way this summer (including holidays I should add) till I realized just a year ago the whole thing would have been financed with credit cards
Go Savings!
And bravo to the poster who mentioned 10-10-80 rule. I remember years and years ago Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame talking about how you should give 10% to God, 10% to savings and live on the rest, how I wish I had followed that advice!
June 16th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Ross,
“Security becomes increasingly important as you have more people depending on you and/or more to lose, but young people shouldn’t live their lives with security as their first priority.”
Now who’s making the values judgment? At any rate, certainly some people do consider borrowing a moral issue or a values judgment. I believe morals and values survive and are passed from one generation to another in large part because they mostly work. Just because someone’s decision is tinged with moral concerns doesn’t mean that decision can’t be objectively logical and sound. I personally look on borrowing as a simple financial decision, as do you. The cause for our different conclusions, however, is that when you ask “Is it worth the extra cost in interest?”, claiming that’s it no different from purchasing a more expensive version, I ask “Is it worth the extra cost in interest, and the risk that my financial situation may change while I’m trying to pay it off?”. The amount of interest one must pay on an item is not fixed, it is random, depending on interest rates and your ability to make payments. As such, the comparison to a more expensive version is not an effective one.
When you dismiss bankruptcy concerns as the credit card company’s problem, then you really are treading on moral ground. You also are discounting the very real negative effects that happen to the person who declares bankruptcy, including the loss of all those lines of credit.
Also, I chose education and houses as examples not because of their “importance” as compared to guitars and golf clubs. As for houses, renting something, such as shelter, on a permanent basis is an even poorer financial decision than buying on credit. This is particularly true when that something does not depreciate in value easily, and generally appreciates in value. As for education, this is also a great financial decision if your chosen career requires a degree that you don’t yet have. Borrowing for education puts you in a safer position in terms of future risks, not a more precarious one. Unless you are a guitar teacher or a professional golf player, your examples are exempt from such considerations. So you see, my examples are not values judgments at all, but financial ones. Your examples are the ones to reflect values judgments.
June 16th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
“Security becomes increasingly important as you have more people depending on you and/or more to lose, but young people shouldn’t live their lives with security as their first priority.”
Young people — and all of us — should be living with a mind to the notion that we might need some money at some point in the future more than we need all of the money we have today.
It’s fine to take guitar lessons and buy a guitar (as one example) with a portion of TODAY’s wealth. It’s not fine, if doing so sets you up for struggling due to lack of resources in the future.
That is why the notion of saving 10% is such a good one. It acknowledges that tomorrow you might need some of what you have today. It still gives you 90% of your money to spend however you need to and want to TODAY.
Save your 10%. Pay your bills. Then buy your guitar or what have you. If you HAVE to take out debt, make sure it’s for a smart reason (like education or a house) and not for a dumb reason (wanting a guitar before you can pay for it out of today’s money.)
June 16th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Another way I have started saving is by buying things ahead of time…when they are on sale. I buy towels, wash clothes, bed sheets etc and keep them. However this does take some skill and afterthought for you can end buying too much too and waste money. You need to know alitle of product branding and pricing. Apart from this you need to check stores frequently to know what their sales are and how you can save.
I think I have managed quite well for the past year.
June 16th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
It’s funny and unsurprising that you didn’t read the book that your dad suggested. If you’ve got any tips on becoming less stubborn, I’m all ears.
June 16th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I agree with others that suggest that most people want to spend some of their savings for fun/happy expenditures (the golf clubs or the vacation).
What we do is to (1) max out 401ks (2) a certain chunk to emergency account savings each month (3) and then we have various other savings goals.
Our other savings goals include longer term goals like a nused car for me (which I count as a fun/necessity expense - I could just keep driving my current car) or a summer vacation for Mr. Sam and me (short term fun savings goal) or a new couch (again the old couch is just fine but I want a new one, so I count this as fun).
So Mr. Sam and I will take a summer vacation in August and we will have lots of fun and will spend a fair chunk of money but we won’t use our credit cards. Instead we put aside vacation money each month and once we have a vacation scheduled we create a rough budget and put aside more money each month to cover the budget. I posted about my Memorial Day trip on a budget on my blog if anyone is interested (not that its rocket science).
June 16th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Young people — and all of us — should be living with a mind to the notion that we might need some money at some point in the future more than we need all of the money we have today.
Which is one of the roles of credit. Borrowing is one way of maintaining a ready cash reserve. Paying off student loans or buying a new car for cash is foolish if the result is that you have no ready cash/credit reserves for real emergencies.
It’s fine to take guitar lessons and buy a guitar (as one example) with a portion of TODAY’s wealth. It’s not fine, if doing so sets you up for struggling due to lack of resources in the future.
That isn’t really the question since the chances are pretty good for most young people that they will have more resources in the future, not fewer. Its foolish to deny your kids a trip to Disney World so that you can take your grandkids.
No one is arguing that people should overextend themselves on credit and end up struggling financially. They should responsibly use their capacity to borrow to make their lives better. And responsibly means staying within your financial ability to make payments.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Not by buying a $200 guitar on credit.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
And even more foolish to deny your kids a good education so you can take them to Disney World.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
I put 10% of my gross into retirement savings, 10% into non-retirement mutual funds, and whatever’s left over at the end of the month (plus bonuses, tax rebates etc) into my ING savings account, which works out to roughly another 10% over the year.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I like this advice. I have found it best to pay myself first *and* last. I allow myself a budgeted amount of discretionary spending (my savings is also part of my budget, I do the 100% budget thing). At the end of my month, whatever is left in the discretionary budget goes into savings. I call it my “drip savings” as it is anything leftover.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I love the idea of paying yourself first, but how can you possibly do that if you make less than you spend? After all of my recurring bills (mortgage, utilities, car payment, etc.), I break even. I still need to buy groceries, gas, and anything else that pops up. So, basically I go in to debt on how much groceries I buy and how much gas I put in to my car. How can I pay myself first? I will go in to debt even further each month doing that.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Not by buying a $200 guitar on credit.
I suppose that depends on how good a musician they are doesn’t it? But you apparently have missed the point. Whether you use credit and pay it back or save it in the first place is irrelevant. The only issue is the cost of using credit and you don’t have the guitar while you are saving for it.
And even more foolish to deny your kids a good education so you can take them to Disney World
You mean if you use your savings to go to Disney World? Or if you refuse to take on debt for their education?
Again the issue is spending money wisely, not whether it is borrowed or saved. You can argue Disney World isn’t all that important but that is a question of values. My point was that not spending money now so that you will have it to spend in the future makes no sense unless you think you will have better things to spend it on in the future than you do today.
June 16th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
If you are a guitar player and purchasing a guitar on credit can lead to future income, then that is probably not a bad idea.
But buying a hobby guitar on credit is not the definition of using other people’s money to get rich.
I think that using credit or loans to acquire necessities is using credit responsibly. (education, homes, cars, auto insurance, business expenses, car repairs, etc.) But it’s only responsible if you can pay back that loan in a reasonable amount of time. Using credit for daily expenses and frivolities can only be done responsibly if you have a plan to pay that loan back quickly (hopefully within a month).
If you are buying comic books on credit and not paying those expenses off at the end of the month, then it’s not being responsible.
And by responsible, I mean being responsible to yourself. I also think it’s irresponsible to expect to die of old age with debts exceeding assets.
Businesses may be able to borrow their way to prosperity, but people can’t.
June 16th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Investing in an IRA - now that’s an idea. I might have to start doing that soon because, I’m thinking I might get pounded on my 401k if I end up SEVERAL tax brackets higher by the time I’m 60 - which I’m hoping will be the case. Might as well pay in the lower tax bracket today.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
But buying a hobby guitar on credit is not the definition of using other people’s money to get rich.
Nobody said it was. That doesn’t make it an irresponsible use of credit. The guitar may have more value to some people than getting rich.
Using credit for daily expenses and frivolities can only be done responsibly if you have a plan to pay that loan back quickly (hopefully within a month).
Why? I don’t think the question is how you pay for it, but whether it is worth the money given your resources. If you are running up big bar tabs every weekend, its probably a poor use of resources whether you pay cash or use credit.
I also think it’s irresponsible to expect to die of old age with debts exceeding assets.
Irresponsible to who? Certainly not your dead self. And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit. I guarantee they don’t feel any “responsibility” to you beyond their legal obligations. Why should you feel responsible to them?
If you are talking about loans from friends and family I would agree with you. Those aren’t purely business deals.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Hey J.D.,
Great website. I’ve been following your posts for a few weeks now and I love your insight mixed with personal anecdotes and things you’ve read. I’m a recent college graduate and I fortunately developed the habit of paying myself early on. That combined with my exceptional frugality allowed me to graduate with approximately $10,000 in savings. Here’s my
post on it
When I first started college I didn’t realize the crippling effect of finance charges. By then I was already $2000 in debt. Since my parents refused to help me, I had no choice but to get two jobs during the school year and work like crazy to pay it off.
It was a hard lesson to learn, but I’m glad I learned it early! I just wish that more young people would take the time out to educate themselves about personal finance.
I think borrowing other people’s money aka leveraging, can be extremely effective in building wealth. However, it’s risky and should only be done with considerable due diligence and consideration.
Generally, if you’re going to use borrowed money to make money, you best make sure you have a means of paying it back if plan A doesn’t pan out.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
“And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit.”
Presumably, the local retail store factors the possibility of shoplifting into their prices.
Presumably, the banks factor the possibility of fraud into their interest rates.
Presumably, the auto insurers factor the possibility of theft and vandalism into their premiums.
Nor do the retail store, bank, or auto insurer feel any “responsibility” to you, so I guess it’s OK to steal, defraud, and vandalize.
What about the chance of getting caught you say? Alright, well then how about the waiter at the restaurant? He factors the possibility of patrons who do not tip into his decision to wait tables. He feels no “responsibility” to you, and he works in a restaurant in a town that you will never visit again. So of course you leave no tip. Is this your personal philosophy, Ross? Is this your sense of responsibility?
These are empty arguments for all but a selfish few. Ross, I understand you’re having a good time trying to stir up the readers of this blog, but please at least use arguments that make sense. Your suggestions in general seem to be predicated upon a certain philosophy that not many people share with you.
If people cannot agree upon the axioms or initial assumptions in an argument, then there can be no persuasion, or even constructive discussion. Of course, if the object of your initial post was not to persuade, but rather to be inflammatory, then I suppose you don’t need to be a stickler about the validity of your points.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
“Why? I don’t think the question is how you pay for it, but whether it is worth the money given your resources. If you are running up big bar tabs every weekend, its probably a poor use of resources whether you pay cash or use credit.”
Well, here you’ve finally contradicted yourself and made a moral judgment. Apparently you’re OK with spending money you don’t have on a guitar that will bring you happiness, but if getting drunk is your thing it’s not such a good idea?
“I also think it’s irresponsible to expect to die of old age with debts exceeding assets.
Irresponsible to who? Certainly not your dead self. And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit. I guarantee they don’t feel any “responsibility” to you beyond their legal obligations. Why should you feel responsible to them?
If you are talking about loans from friends and family I would agree with you. Those aren’t purely business deals.”
You just don’t get it do you? The business has already fulfilled their responsibility to you when they provided the item or the money(loan) to buy the item. Your “responsibility” not only legally but morally is to PAY THEM BACK!!!
June 16th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
I think if you don’t understand money you should definitely force yourself to pay yourself first. However, we pay ourselves last… but that is because our budget is setup so where we have significant cash flow at the end of every month. It gives us the flexibility we need during the month in specific categories (gas if we go on a trip, eating out if we have an extra church event, etc.) without having to worry about breaking the budget.
But if you lack discipline, yes, pay yourself first.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Apparently you’re OK with spending money you don’t have on a guitar that will bring you happiness, but if getting drunk is your thing it’s not such a good idea?
That’s right. I don’t think getting drunk every weekend is a good use of money. My bad.
Well, here you’ve finally contradicted yourself and made a moral judgment.?
I have no problem making moral judgments if you are clear that is what they are. If you want to say people shouldn’t waste money, I would agree with you. But that was my point, credit or cash wasting money is a bad idea.
I guess it’s OK to steal, defraud, and vandalize.
All of those are illegal. But there is no legal obligation to pay off debts before you die. And there is no moral obligation either. If the lender wants assurance of getting paid, they should take out insurance. That is what it is for.
You just don’t get it do you?
Oh, I get it.
Part of the current fad for creating the notion that there is some further moral responsibility for commercially obtained debt is the fear that customers will start treating the transaction as a business deal, the same way the business does.
I think you don’t get it. The business entered into a contract where they expect to make money. It was a business transaction. You have legal responsibilities as a result. You have no moral responsibility beyond that any more than the business does.
How many of Enron’s stockholders, the owners, have come forward to pay off its debts? None. Because their liability is limited by law to their investment. Anyone think they have moral responsibility to assume liability beyond that? I think you can make a better case for that than for the poor smuck who is under water on his house has an obligation to go down with the ship instead of handing the keys to the investors who bought his loan.
Can you imagine the reaction if the folks who bought the sub-prime mortgages expecting to make a killing now demanded that the banks and other loan originators fulfill their “moral obligation” to make good on the ones that went bad? They wouldn’t get past the laugh test.
He factors the possibility of patrons who do not tip into his decision to wait tables.
I doubt it. He serves food with the assumption people will leave a tip if he performs his service satisfactorily. That is part of the deal. Its a social obligation like leaving money in the collection plate on Sunday. You don’t tip at McDonalds, its not part of the deal.
These are not business contracts. I think the argument that you should feel a similar social obligation to faceless investors who bought your credit is plain silly.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
“He serves food with the assumption people will leave a tip if he performs his service satisfactorily.”
In fact, he serves food with this assumption only about most people. Anybody with the slightest experience in the restaurant business knows that there are people who will stiff the server on their tip even if the service is performed satisfactorily.
“If the lender wants assurance of getting paid, they should take out insurance. That is what it is for.”
Insurance is not magic. Just because you are insured from the event, doesn’t mean you don’t pay for it. You just pay for it in small increments, over a long period of time in a method of payment called ‘insurance premium’, which is tied exactly to the rate at which said adverse event occurs. Insurance does not remove expected cost, it only removes the related uncertainty of it.
“I think the argument that you should feel a similar social obligation to faceless investors who bought your credit is plain silly.”
Many of these ‘faceless’ investors, are people like you and me who have bought into stocks and mutual funds, and it is precisely these same ‘faceless’ investors, trying to save for retirement, that you are stiffing when you shirk your obligation to pay your debts. Just because you can’t see their faces as they bring you drink refills, doesn’t mean they’re not real people.
The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd. When you harm a business, you harm the investors, employees, and customers through your actions. The harm is spread out to the degree where perhaps nobody notices the effect individually, but the cumulative effects are not trivial.
Really the only difference between the waiter and the investor is the faceless aspect that you mention, the investor’s facelessness being multiplied further by the diffusion of your actions over a large number of people. It is definitely easier to stiff the investors without feeling as much guilt, since you don’t have faces to connect with the people you injure.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Ross:
I think perhaps you should meditate on the mission and purpose of this blog.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:09 am
I’ve personally read “The Richest Man in Babylon” and I think what the author wrote is fairly common sense. Hard to put in to practice, but it pays dividends when it becomes a habit.
Unfortunately, there tends to be more month left over than paycheck remaining, but by placing a certain percentage or dollar amount aside, one will always have money for those surprise bills.
I tried for years to save after my bills were paid, but that never seemed to work. However, once I started putting a couple hundred away before my bills were paid, I’ve started to build a little nestegg.
I think the importance of paying yourself first, is that it helps establish a good habit which will be needed once the high-interest loans are paid off. This will help fill the void of no payment. After all, as Ben Franklin ,I believe, said : A penny save is a penny earned.
Good luck for the folks who are embarking on this lifestyle! It’s hard at first, but like many things it becomes easier once the habit is engrained.
June 17th, 2008 at 7:22 am
I agree with Ross and the need to pay yourself first. Its hard to see how personal finance is different from a real business. Since the objective of a business is to make money in the long term.
To make money you need money. Since money is not in the mattress in the bedroom, therefore it has to be borrowed.
Borrowing money to invest(in education, a new house, a business venture) is the key to economic progress.
However, in my opinion, people need to start behaving like businesses and do more “due diligence” before committing to an investment. They need to ask themselves, does this purchase actually pay for itself in the long run? How will it improve the quality of my life, will I be able to make more money off it? Of course food and electricity will also qualify(since food is needed to stay alive, work and make more money).
That way if a person invests in education, then the payoff 5 years down the line would be substantially more. Or he could invest in a guitar and stave off loneliness or reduce stress. Now that would reduce the chances of suicide (or improve her chances of social interaction and therefore make her more likely to save money on depression medication). There is a whole branch of accounting that deals with putting a dollar value on such things.
However any real business would not take on credit card debt for the simple reason that the interest rate is astronomical.
Credit card debt has a very high interest rate. No business on the planet would raise money at that rate for any duration more then 2 months.
But most business would jump at a interest free loan of substantial amounts for a fixed amount of time. So sensible borrowing is the basis of economic growth.
If a car or a set of golf accessories enables you to increase your earning potential then its a good investment. However you need to run the numbers before saying its a good investment.
But then again, since most people don’t have the time to run the numbers, it makes more sense to avoid credit card debt and any sort of short term consumer debt that is substantially impacts your ability to stay afloat(financially) in times of health emergencies or other crisis(unless you have already planned for it, estimated the cost and invested the “crisis” money in a liquid instrument at a rate of interest that keeps up with inflation).
However people are not businesses. They are creatures of impulse and emotion. So its easier to avoid impulse purchases if the “disposable” income(or liquid profits) is just not there(since its already invested somewhere)
There, now it is out of my system. I feel happy…hmmmm….writing comments makes me happy. Maybe I need to get out more.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:05 am
The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.
Yes it is, but that is your idea, not mine. You really don’t get it.
Many of these ‘faceless’ investors, are people like you and me who have bought into stocks and mutual funds
They bought very risky investments where the borrower paid a stiff premium in higher interest to offset that risk. That was a business decision and they sure aren’t going to return money to the borrowers if the investment turns out to have been less risky than they anticipated with fewer defaults. In essence the borrower paid extra as insurance against the possibility of default.
No business on the planet would raise money at that rate for any duration more then 2 months.
That depends on what return they could get from the money and whether they had alternatives available at a lower rate. There are plenty of small businesses that rely on their owner’s credit card. It is expensive, but they don’t have any other source of immediate credit.
It is the same for anyone. Using credit is more expensive than using cash, it makes whatever you buy more expensive. And that needs to be figured into the decision of whether to buy on credit. If you can’t or don’t do that you aren’t using it responsibly. But there is no intrinsic moral superiority to using cash. Its just a purchasing decision, like whether to buy the more expensive brand of toilet paper.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:20 am
However people are not businesses. They are creatures of impulse and emotion. So its easier to avoid impulse purchases if the “disposable” income(or liquid profits) is just not there(since its already invested somewhere)
I agree and if you can’t control your impulses or emotions then you will find yourself spending money foolishly. My wife and I have taken to riding our bikes to garage sales with $5 and no check book. If we really want something that won’t fit into the bike bag then we have to go back and get the car.
That also works for grocery shopping whether biking or walking. Its amazing how focused you can be when you are limited to one shopping bag full of groceries. You have to control your impulses. Once you are very conscious of each purchase, it seems to carry over even to the small items where space isn’t really an issue.
What you buy is a whole lot more important than how you pay for it.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:38 am
“You really don’t get it.”
Oh, I get it.
I believe that I understand what you are trying to say, I simply don’t agree with it. In part this is because of a difference in starting principles, specifically some rather fundamental ethical ideas about being honest and fulfilling obligations made.
Even if we were starting on the same page, I still don’t know that I’d be able to follow your logic to the same conclusion, because of the seeming fallacies and inconsistencies in your reasoning. I cannot say this with certainty, however, as I do not know precisely what all the fundamental assumptions would be.
As the primary cause of your disagreement with almost all of the other commenters, myself included, seems to stem from a difference in first principles, I think we must simply agree to disagree.
If you are looking for places to promote your ideas about the liberal use of consumer credit, I would venture to say that this blog is probably not the most receptive or appropriate venue.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Oh, I get it.
Then why did you say this? “The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.” Or was that just a dishonest attempt to deceive other people about what I said?
specifically some rather fundamental ethical ideas about being honest and fulfilling obligations made.
I think you are being fundamentally dishonest. You want people to continue make decisions about how they handle their money emotionally. You want to convince them that they are bad people if they find themselves in circumstances where they can’t repay the debts they took on in good faith. That people who bought those loans hoping to “get rich quick” are victims because their gamble didn’t pay off. That they didn’t understand that they were buying a share in the risk you took when you borrowed the money and hoped to make a handsome profit from it.
I would venture to say that this blog is probably not the most receptive or appropriate venue.
The key to “getting rich slowly” is to stop treating how people handle money as moral or emotional decisions and start treating them as business decisions.
Credit or cash are morally neutral. The choice of which to use is practical, not moral or ethical. Credit is more expensive than cash. It is in limited supply, just like cash. You can waste either one on things you don’t value or you can choose to spend them on things you do value. Its the decisions about what you buy, not how you pay for it, that is important.
It is fundamentally dishonest and unethical to portray that as advocating the “liberal use of consumer credit”. But then, we obviously have some different ideas about those values.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Ross:
*I* am not a business. I am a person. I am not conducting my personal affairs as if I were a business. I do not see the reason for converting my way of thinking to see myself differently.
Do not attempt to render me an emotionless, “logical” entity. It isn’t going to happen. We are not corporations. We are people.
What is your problem with this whole concept anyway? What is it you find so objectionable about the very simple concept of saving a portion of your money every month? Why is embracing that idea so vilely based in emotion that you have to keep hammering at people in this blog?
June 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Do not attempt to render me an emotionless, “logical” entity. It isn’t going to happen. We are not corporations. We are people.
That’s fine. Just understand that if you make your money decisions based on emotion they are often going to be bad financial and business decisions. Corporations are run by people too.
What is it you find so objectionable about the very simple concept of saving a portion of your money every month?
I didn’t object to that entirely. What I said was ‘“Pay yourself first” is bad advice for young people.’
Young people starting out should be far more concerned with making sure they spend money on things that will help establish them in life, than accumulating a bank account. And since their earning power is likely to increase, they ought to make responsible use of credit to accomplish those things. That devolved into a discussion of the appropriate use of credit.
That does not mean “pay yourself first” is always a bad concept if you know what you are saving money for and have extra money. But if you have consumer debt and can afford to “pay yourself first” then you should use the money to pay off the high-interest debt first, not put it in a lower interest savings account. And, in general if you are young, you ought to leverage your limited finances by borrowing for a purchase and using the money you would have saved to pay off the loan rather than saving for a later purchase.
June 17th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Ross, I have made no attempt to deceive people about what you said. The entire thread of conversation is contained right here on this comments section, and anyone reading it can very easily see for themselves exactly what you said, and make their own judgments about whether my responses are fair.
At any rate, your accusation of my alleged unfair representation is immediately followed by a string of your characterizations of my position which are at least as exaggerated and baseless as you claim my characterization is of yours.
You have said that you have a social obligation to tip a waiter or leave money in a collection plate, but that you have no such obligation when a business is involved, and you back that up with a statement about faceless investors. In my mind, this says that your system of ethics treats businesses differently because they are not people, or because a business contract is involved instead of an unwritten understanding between one person and another.
When I say that we have a fundamental disconnect on ethical issues, I am not accusing you of being unethical or dishonest, and I don’t appreciate your own accusations towards me in that vein. I’m not in the business of telling people they are bad or imposing my own morals or ethics on others. I am only saying that when people’s ethical systems do not agree, as ours clearly do not on the issue of leaving debt unpaid at death, then further discussion that depends fundamentally on the ethical issue in dispute is relatively fruitless.
Finally, the word liberal is entirely subjective and contextual. In the context of this blog and the readers thereof, your position on the use of consumer credit falls well within the range of the term liberal, and I stand by that comment.
I am sorry that you seem to be taking this personally and on an emotional level. If you thought, however, that your ideas would not come under criticism on this blog, then you perhaps need to familiarize yourself a bit better on what this blog is about.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I have made no attempt to deceive people about what you said.
Well, yes you have and you are doing it again here:
“You have said that you have a social obligation to tip a waiter or leave money in a collection plate, but that you have no such obligation when a business is involved”
In fact, I made no such statement. Even if I had, how does it lead to this conclusion:
““The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.””
our ideas would not come under criticism
Actually you haven’t addressed my ideas, you have simply misrepresented them repeatedly. Instead of addressing the specific examples I provided you just repeat your belief that it is unethical to leave unpaid debts at death.
You are right, I can’t argue with your belief. But I think you should state clearly “I think individuals have a moral obligation to repay debt owed to corporate stockholders, but the corporate stockholders have no moral obligation to pay off their debts beyond their investment in the corporation.” Or assert they do.
Frankly, I think either proposition is preposterous. These are business relationships governed by law, not ethical discussions. You both signed a contract that spelled out exactly what your obligations to one another were under the applicable laws. You want to put the additional burden on the borrower of some unstated moral obligation.
And the reason that is problematic ought to be obvious. There are all sorts of “credit counselors” out there that are in business to “help” people in financial trouble. And some of them use this very same argument about moral obligations to persuade unwitting people to buy their “services” instead of asking their creditors to forgive some of their debt or avail themselves of the perfectly legal remedy of bankruptcy.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Here’s my clear statement:
——
I believe I have a moral obligation to repay debt that I owe to anyone or any organization, regardless of their status as individual or corporation.
-
I believe I could do very little to change anything about the structure of limited liability corporation even if I wanted to, so I have not invested the time and research into the subject requisite to form a well informed opinion on the subject.
-
I believe the existence of limited liability corporations has no effect on my own moral obligation to repay debt that I assume.
——
I don’t think borrowing is a moral issue at all. For me, however, defaulting on a loan is. You clearly take a different view. I am afraid to say more, lest you accuse me of misrepresenting you yet again. For anyone that has read any of my posts that reference Ross, please read Ross’ original posts as well, so that you may obtain an accurate representation on the matter.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“You are right, I can’t argue with your belief. But I think you should state clearly “I think individuals have a moral obligation to repay debt owed to corporate stockholders, but the corporate stockholders have no moral obligation to pay off their debts beyond their investment in the corporation.” Or assert they do.
Frankly, I think either proposition is preposterous. These are business relationships governed by law, not ethical discussions.”
Which law is it exactly that you have read that states that your death will relieve your obligation to pay your debts? Granted YOU won’t be here to actually pay them, but your estate is still responsible, at least up to the point that your estate has assets.
The moral obligation some of us keep referring to is the promise that a person makes when they borrow money. When you take out a loan, you are promising to abide by the terms of the contract and repay the loan.
You borrowed the money that you didn’t have to buy something you wanted (maybe needed, but to go back to the beginning I don’t believe that anyone NEEDS a guitar). I can’t understand how you are logically getting to the conclusion that it’s OK not to pay this back, dead or alive? They kept their end of the deal, you need to do the same.
What you are ignoring here is the variable of risk. You are encouraging young people to go into debt, based on the ASSUMPTION that they will have more money in the future to pay it off. While most of the time income increases as we get older, you never know what is going to happen. What if they become injured or disabled and are unable to work? They still have the debt. I guess in your world it OK to just keep the stuff you bought and not pay what you owe. The business can just raise prices and the rest of us can pay for it.
June 17th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
This entire discussion is way off the rails.
The post was about individuals saving a portion of their income on a regular basis as a matter of personal finance.
“Just understand that if you make your money decisions based on emotion they are often going to be bad financial and business decisions. Corporations are run by people too.”
DO NOT tell me what to understand. You have no authority to try and educate me. You do not know the extent to which I make decisions based on emotion (and furthermore you oddly seem to equate emotionless decisionmaking with business decisions.) You also are not nearly as successful in walling off your emotions from your decisionmaking as you think you are.
I do not know why you keep dragging corporations into this. Corporations have a vast complex of legal obligations to fulfill. Personal finance is usually much simpler, unless you are rich or have complex investments.
“Young people starting out should be far more concerned with making sure they spend money on things that will help establish them in life, than accumulating a bank account….blahblahblah..”
Your basic assertion that in the face of a huge debt load it makes more sense to pay debt than emphasize savings is a sound one. I still think it’s wise for that person to save even a small bit for emergencies (Dave Ramsey, et al. advocates having a $1K emergency fund in place before attempting serious debt repayment. I’d like to see somebody try to save even $10/month if they are broke and struggling.
I didn’t when I was young and swimming in debt. I regret it.
Not everybody reading this blog is a young person, starting out, with more bills than money at the end of the month. Some of us are older, with a substantial cash flow, and it’s not so true for us that we have a huge expectation of great leaps in personal earning power ahead. We still need to save and pay down debt.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
DO NOT tell me what to understand.
Don’t tell me what to say. You have no authority to do so. You are free to ignore that particular piece of advice - at your peril.
I do not know why you keep dragging corporations into this.
No one has to “drag” them into it. That is who holds most of the debt people owe, unless they have sold it off to individual investors.
Not everybody reading this blog is a young person
Just to be clear, my original statement didn’t address them. It was a specific statement about who that advice does not apply to.
I guess in your world it OK to just keep the stuff you bought and not pay what you owe
In the world I live in, we have bankruptcy laws that can legally forgive your debts so you no longer “owe” anyone anything. In the world I live in, the owners of corporations are not responsible for paying off its debts to you. In the world I (and you) live in, I pay a rate of interest that includes the assessed risk that I will be unable to pay off the loan. In the world I live in, my obligations are spelled out in a contract and subject to applicable laws.
You are encouraging young people to go into debt, based on the ASSUMPTION that they will have more money in the future to pay it off.
Yes I am. And you are encouraging them to forgo investment in making the best lives for themselves possible on the ASSUMPTION that they won’t be able to pay it off. If I am wrong, at worst they go bankrupt. If you are wrong they waste their life by failing to invest in it. All choices have risk.
I think not going to college because you don’t want to borrow money is a poor choice even if the loans end up being a drag on your finances for the next 20 years. There are plenty of other ways young people can use money that are equally valuable.
I don’t believe that anyone NEEDS a guitar
Neither do I. But it can enrich someones life and it may well be worth paying $2.50 a month in interest to have one.
They kept their end of the deal, you need to do the same.
Your end of the deal is spelled out in the contract and by law, as is theirs. I have never seen a contract that spelled out my authorization to transfer any “moral obligation” to some other investor, but it sure spells out that they can transfer the legal obligation.
I believe I have a moral obligation to repay debt that I owe to anyone or any organization, regardless of their status as individual or corporation.
You keep saying that. Its obvious you “believe” it. The question is why?
The other question was whether if own any stock or a mutual fund that owns stock, do you “believe” you have a moral obligation to pay its bills if it goes out of business without paying off all its debts? Afterall, what about all those poor investors who loaned your company money. The employees that didn’t get paid. The vendors whose bills are unpaid? Why aren’t you and the other owners “morally obligated” to make them whole but if they owe your corporation money, they are “morally obligated”?
It seems to me you are inventing a personal moral obligation where there is none. There may have been a time when your “character” or personal relationship with a lender was part of why they loaned you money. And if you borrow from friends and family it still is. But that is not the case with credit cards. These are entirely legal relationships that are spelled out as such. But it certainly serves lenders to have people feel some obligation beyond those spelled out in the contract.
Just to put this in perspective. Suppose you get hit by a car and die and your widow can’t make the payments on your house. Will the investors who own the loan that you “promised” to repay recognize any “moral obligation” not to throw your family out on the street? I didn’t think so.
June 17th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Heh, JD, thanks a lot! Now I can’t find that book (”The Automatic Millionaire”) in Multnomah Co Library. They’re all checked out, with the same return date. Sigh.
To Ross, et al: Think about how much time you’re spending on this fruitless argument. How many hours have you wasted? Turn those hours into dollars… then put them in a savings account!
Ding, instant millionaire!
June 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“Just to put this in perspective. Suppose you get hit by a car and die and your widow can’t make the payments on your house. Will the investors who own the loan that you “promised” to repay recognize any “moral obligation” not to throw your family out on the street? I didn’t think so.”
I wouldn’t expect them to, I promised to pay, and I understand that if I don’t that they get my house. They paid for my house, if I don’t pay them back I have no expectation of keeping the house.
That was one of the points I tried to make to you. My death would not eliminate the responsibility to pay my debt.
I personally feel morally obligated to pay my debts, even if I was to declare bankruptcy and I wasn’t LEGALLY responsible. It is what I agreed to, and it is the right thing to do.
This is why I would not encourage a young person to go into debt for a freaking guitar. Who cares if it’s only $2.50/month in interest, you still have to pay for the guitar eventually! This is why we have a credit crisis and record numbers of home foreclosures and bankruptcy filings, everybody has to have it NOW.
Maybe we should make shareholders (and the overpaid CEO and Board of Directors) responsible for a bankrupt corporations outstanding debt. I’ll bet we would see a lot fewer bankrupt corporations and some reasonable CEO compensation plans.
Of course that would make incorporating pointless then wouldn’t it?
June 17th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
haha, Seth- I just put a hold on Automatic Millionaire at Mult Co Library myself
June 18th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
They paid for my house, if I don’t pay them back I have no expectation of keeping the house.
Your expectations have nothing to do with it. You are dead. Your widow and children didn’t make any promises. Why should they pay for yours?
The answer, of course, is that you had a legal contract that used your house to secure the loan - whatever purpose you used the money for. In other words, the bank has NO moral right to your house, but they have a clear legal right to foreclose and they are going to use it regardless of the consequences to your innocent wife and children.
if I was to declare bankruptcy and I wasn’t LEGALLY responsible. It is what I agreed to, and it is the right thing to do.
But in fact, you made no such agreement. You signed a legal contract that under the law included the possibility that you would go bankrupt. And that possibility was figured into the interest rate you paid. In essence, you have paid for insurance and are refusing to use it.
Its the same as the credit insurance scams where people pay for insurance to guarantee someone else’s investment if they should be unable to repay a loan. The lender can turn around and sell the loan for a higher price because it is insured, making a handy profit financed by the sucker who took out the insurance.
August 7th, 2008 at 3:20 am
Saving money, and paying yourself first is very, very important. many if not most americans do not save, and this is a big problem. Everybody wants to look better than the person next to him/her. “Oh my car is better than yours.” “I dress better than you”, “my house is bigger than yours” The people who usually say this in most cases, actually have little or no money in the bank. They are basically living paycheck to paycheck, to paycheck, or on large amounts of credit, that will take years to pay off. Wealthy people usually, but not in all cases try not to show their wealth. They live in modest mid-sized homes, drive modest older model cars, and dress down for the most part. So just because someone dresses very well, or has that nice SUV, don’t think that they have money, because in most cases they have no money. Having a good sum of money in the bank, is what really will raise our confidence, self image, self esteem. People who have assets and large amounts of money, think different than people who are poor. The mindset is different. Having a rich, wealthy mindset is very important. Finding ways to have multiple streams of income/passive income/letting compound interest work for you are the essentials to building wealth. Just imagine how it would feel to work two jobs, slaving away everyday, like a robot, but have no or little money in the bank. Thats a horrible feeling. What is the point of working two jobs. I was like this at one time in my life, but than i learned how to pay myself first, save with discipline every month, let compound interest work for me, learned how to develop passive income from my savings, developed more streams of income, and I have to say that I feel damm good. I not rich, but comfortable. And if you saw me in the street, you would probably judge me to be struggling, by the car i drive, and how I dress. “Never judge a book by its cover” This is so true. So my friends save something every month, and discipline your mind. Let time work for you. Start reading investment magazines/books, how to build wealth books, etc.
CHANGE HOW YOU THINK. DONT HAVE A POOR MINDSET.