Personal Finance Made Easy: Pay Yourself First
Published on - June 16th, 2008 (Modified on - April 30th, 2009) (by J.D. Roth) Yesterday I shared some financial tips my father gave me when I was a sophomore in college. He didn’t stop there. After I graduated, he continued to offer advice. One of the things he told me was, “Pay yourself first.” To explain, he gave me a copy of George Clason’s 1926 classic, The Richest Man in Babylon. I didn’t read it.
In retrospect, I ought to have been a little less stubborn. It took years for me to understand what “pay yourself first” really meant, and by that time, I was already in financial trouble. If I’d read The Richest Man in Babylon when I was 21 — if I’d learned to pay myself first — I might not have had $35,000 in debt by the time I was 35.
To pay yourself first means simply this: Before you pay your bills, before you buy groceries, before you do anything else, set aside a portion of your income to save. The first bill you pay each month should be to yourself. This habit, developed early, can help a person build tremendous wealth. I wish I’d understood this when I graduated from college.
Why pay yourself first?
If you’re just getting started in the Real World, saving may seem impossible. You have rent, a car payment, groceries, and maybe student loans. Sure, you’d like to save, but there’s just no money left at the end of the month. And that’s the problem: most people save what’s left over — left over after bills and after discretionary spending.
But if you don’t develop the saving habit now, there are always going to be reasons to delay: you need dental work, you want to go to Mexico with your friends, you aren’t making enough to pay your bills. Here are three reasons to start saving now instead of waiting until next year (or the year after):
- When you pay yourself first, you’re mentally establishing saving as a priority. You’re telling yourself that you are more important than the electric company or the landlord. Building savings is a powerful motivator — it’s empowering.
- Paying yourself first encourages sound financial habits. Most people spend their money in the following order: bills, fun, saving. Unsurprisingly, there’s usually little left over to put in the bank. But if you bump saving to the front — saving, bills, fun — you’re able to set the money aside before you rationalize reasons to spend it.
- By paying yourself first, you’re building a cash buffer with real-world applications. Regular steady contributions are an excellent way to build a nest egg. You can use the money to deal with emergencies. You can use it to purchase a house. You can use it to save for retirement. Paying yourself first gives you freedom — it opens a world of opportunity.
Once I developed the habit of paying myself first, I couldn’t help wishing I’d done so right out of college. I wished I had listened to my father. If I had, my spending may never have spiraled out of control.
How to pay yourself first
The best way to develop a saving a habit is to make the process as painless as possible. Make it automatic. Make it invisible. If you arrange to have the money taken from your paycheck before you receive it, you’ll never know it’s missing.
Part of your savings plan will probably include retirement, but you should also save for intermediate goals too, such as buying a house, paying for a honeymoon, or purchasing a new car. Here are three easy ways to begin doing this yourself:
- If your employer offers a retirement plan — such as a 401(k) or 457(b) account — enroll as soon as possible, especially if the company matches your contributions. Matched contributions are like free money.
- Starting a Roth IRA is one of the smartest moves a young adult can make. These accounts allow your investments to grow tax-free. Because of the extraordinary power of compound interest (and compound returns), regular investments in a Roth IRA from an early age can lead to enormous future wealth.
- Open a high interest savings account at a bank like ING Direct or FNBO Direct. Set up automatic transfers into this account, either directly from your paycheck or from your regular bank account. Treat these transfers like you’d treat any other financial obligation. This should be your first and most important bill every month.
The real barrier to developing this habit is finding money to save. Many people believe it’s impossible. But almost everyone can save at least 1% of their income. That’s only one penny out of every dollar. Some will argue that saving this little is meaningless. But if a skeptic will try to save just 1% of his income, he’ll usually discover the process is painless. Maybe next he’ll try to save 3%. Or 5%. As his saving rate increases, so his nest egg will grow.
My wife is a perfect case study. She started by having 8% of her pre-tax income set aside in her employer’s retirement plan. As her salary increased, she increased the amount she saved, routing it to various retirement accounts. Because she never saw the money in her paycheck, she never missed it. Now she saves 24% of her income, and she receives a 6% employer match! How did she do this? By paying herself first.
Further Reading
Young adults should make it a priority to develop a regular saving plan. Establishing this habit early can lead to increased financial security later in life. But even those of us who got a late start should do our best to pay ourselves first. I didn’t begin doing this until just a couple years ago. Better late than never.
Though many personal finance books briefly explore the idea of paying yourself first, David Bach’s 2003 best-seller, The Automatic Millionaire is devoted exclusively to the subject. The entire book is a step-by-step guide to developing the saving habit and making it automatic. If you’d like more ideas about how to make this work in your life, this is the place to look. Any good public library will have a copy.
This article is part of the MBN group writing project for June. Photo created exclusively for Get Rich Slowly by David Hobby of Strobist, a fantastic photography blog.
This article is about Basics, Investing, Money Hacks
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Investing in an IRA – now that’s an idea. I might have to start doing that soon because, I’m thinking I might get pounded on my 401k if I end up SEVERAL tax brackets higher by the time I’m 60 – which I’m hoping will be the case. Might as well pay in the lower tax bracket today.
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But buying a hobby guitar on credit is not the definition of using other people’s money to get rich.
Nobody said it was. That doesn’t make it an irresponsible use of credit. The guitar may have more value to some people than getting rich.
Using credit for daily expenses and frivolities can only be done responsibly if you have a plan to pay that loan back quickly (hopefully within a month).
Why? I don’t think the question is how you pay for it, but whether it is worth the money given your resources. If you are running up big bar tabs every weekend, its probably a poor use of resources whether you pay cash or use credit.
I also think it’s irresponsible to expect to die of old age with debts exceeding assets.
Irresponsible to who? Certainly not your dead self. And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit. I guarantee they don’t feel any “responsibility” to you beyond their legal obligations. Why should you feel responsible to them?
If you are talking about loans from friends and family I would agree with you. Those aren’t purely business deals.
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Hey J.D.,
Great website. I’ve been following your posts for a few weeks now and I love your insight mixed with personal anecdotes and things you’ve read. I’m a recent college graduate and I fortunately developed the habit of paying myself early on. That combined with my exceptional frugality allowed me to graduate with approximately $10,000 in savings. Here’s my
post on it
When I first started college I didn’t realize the crippling effect of finance charges. By then I was already $2000 in debt. Since my parents refused to help me, I had no choice but to get two jobs during the school year and work like crazy to pay it off.
It was a hard lesson to learn, but I’m glad I learned it early! I just wish that more young people would take the time out to educate themselves about personal finance.
I think borrowing other people’s money aka leveraging, can be extremely effective in building wealth. However, it’s risky and should only be done with considerable due diligence and consideration.
Generally, if you’re going to use borrowed money to make money, you best make sure you have a means of paying it back if plan A doesn’t pan out.
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“And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit.”
Presumably, the local retail store factors the possibility of shoplifting into their prices.
Presumably, the banks factor the possibility of fraud into their interest rates.
Presumably, the auto insurers factor the possibility of theft and vandalism into their premiums.
Nor do the retail store, bank, or auto insurer feel any “responsibility” to you, so I guess it’s OK to steal, defraud, and vandalize.
What about the chance of getting caught you say? Alright, well then how about the waiter at the restaurant? He factors the possibility of patrons who do not tip into his decision to wait tables. He feels no “responsibility” to you, and he works in a restaurant in a town that you will never visit again. So of course you leave no tip. Is this your personal philosophy, Ross? Is this your sense of responsibility?
These are empty arguments for all but a selfish few. Ross, I understand you’re having a good time trying to stir up the readers of this blog, but please at least use arguments that make sense. Your suggestions in general seem to be predicated upon a certain philosophy that not many people share with you.
If people cannot agree upon the axioms or initial assumptions in an argument, then there can be no persuasion, or even constructive discussion. Of course, if the object of your initial post was not to persuade, but rather to be inflammatory, then I suppose you don’t need to be a stickler about the validity of your points.
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“Why? I don’t think the question is how you pay for it, but whether it is worth the money given your resources. If you are running up big bar tabs every weekend, its probably a poor use of resources whether you pay cash or use credit.”
Well, here you’ve finally contradicted yourself and made a moral judgment. Apparently you’re OK with spending money you don’t have on a guitar that will bring you happiness, but if getting drunk is your thing it’s not such a good idea?
“I also think it’s irresponsible to expect to die of old age with debts exceeding assets.
Irresponsible to who? Certainly not your dead self. And, presumably, the business people who loaned you money factored that possibility into the price of your credit. I guarantee they don’t feel any “responsibility” to you beyond their legal obligations. Why should you feel responsible to them?
If you are talking about loans from friends and family I would agree with you. Those aren’t purely business deals.”
You just don’t get it do you? The business has already fulfilled their responsibility to you when they provided the item or the money(loan) to buy the item. Your “responsibility” not only legally but morally is to PAY THEM BACK!!!
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I think if you don’t understand money you should definitely force yourself to pay yourself first. However, we pay ourselves last… but that is because our budget is setup so where we have significant cash flow at the end of every month. It gives us the flexibility we need during the month in specific categories (gas if we go on a trip, eating out if we have an extra church event, etc.) without having to worry about breaking the budget.
But if you lack discipline, yes, pay yourself first.
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Apparently you’re OK with spending money you don’t have on a guitar that will bring you happiness, but if getting drunk is your thing it’s not such a good idea?
That’s right. I don’t think getting drunk every weekend is a good use of money. My bad.
Well, here you’ve finally contradicted yourself and made a moral judgment.?
I have no problem making moral judgments if you are clear that is what they are. If you want to say people shouldn’t waste money, I would agree with you. But that was my point, credit or cash wasting money is a bad idea.
I guess it’s OK to steal, defraud, and vandalize.
All of those are illegal. But there is no legal obligation to pay off debts before you die. And there is no moral obligation either. If the lender wants assurance of getting paid, they should take out insurance. That is what it is for.
You just don’t get it do you?
Oh, I get it.
Part of the current fad for creating the notion that there is some further moral responsibility for commercially obtained debt is the fear that customers will start treating the transaction as a business deal, the same way the business does.
I think you don’t get it. The business entered into a contract where they expect to make money. It was a business transaction. You have legal responsibilities as a result. You have no moral responsibility beyond that any more than the business does.
How many of Enron’s stockholders, the owners, have come forward to pay off its debts? None. Because their liability is limited by law to their investment. Anyone think they have moral responsibility to assume liability beyond that? I think you can make a better case for that than for the poor smuck who is under water on his house has an obligation to go down with the ship instead of handing the keys to the investors who bought his loan.
Can you imagine the reaction if the folks who bought the sub-prime mortgages expecting to make a killing now demanded that the banks and other loan originators fulfill their “moral obligation” to make good on the ones that went bad? They wouldn’t get past the laugh test.
He factors the possibility of patrons who do not tip into his decision to wait tables.
I doubt it. He serves food with the assumption people will leave a tip if he performs his service satisfactorily. That is part of the deal. Its a social obligation like leaving money in the collection plate on Sunday. You don’t tip at McDonalds, its not part of the deal.
These are not business contracts. I think the argument that you should feel a similar social obligation to faceless investors who bought your credit is plain silly.
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“He serves food with the assumption people will leave a tip if he performs his service satisfactorily.”
In fact, he serves food with this assumption only about most people. Anybody with the slightest experience in the restaurant business knows that there are people who will stiff the server on their tip even if the service is performed satisfactorily.
“If the lender wants assurance of getting paid, they should take out insurance. That is what it is for.”
Insurance is not magic. Just because you are insured from the event, doesn’t mean you don’t pay for it. You just pay for it in small increments, over a long period of time in a method of payment called ‘insurance premium’, which is tied exactly to the rate at which said adverse event occurs. Insurance does not remove expected cost, it only removes the related uncertainty of it.
“I think the argument that you should feel a similar social obligation to faceless investors who bought your credit is plain silly.”
Many of these ‘faceless’ investors, are people like you and me who have bought into stocks and mutual funds, and it is precisely these same ‘faceless’ investors, trying to save for retirement, that you are stiffing when you shirk your obligation to pay your debts. Just because you can’t see their faces as they bring you drink refills, doesn’t mean they’re not real people.
The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd. When you harm a business, you harm the investors, employees, and customers through your actions. The harm is spread out to the degree where perhaps nobody notices the effect individually, but the cumulative effects are not trivial.
Really the only difference between the waiter and the investor is the faceless aspect that you mention, the investor’s facelessness being multiplied further by the diffusion of your actions over a large number of people. It is definitely easier to stiff the investors without feeling as much guilt, since you don’t have faces to connect with the people you injure.
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Ross:
I think perhaps you should meditate on the mission and purpose of this blog.
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I’ve personally read “The Richest Man in Babylon” and I think what the author wrote is fairly common sense. Hard to put in to practice, but it pays dividends when it becomes a habit.
Unfortunately, there tends to be more month left over than paycheck remaining, but by placing a certain percentage or dollar amount aside, one will always have money for those surprise bills.
I tried for years to save after my bills were paid, but that never seemed to work. However, once I started putting a couple hundred away before my bills were paid, I’ve started to build a little nestegg.
I think the importance of paying yourself first, is that it helps establish a good habit which will be needed once the high-interest loans are paid off. This will help fill the void of no payment. After all, as Ben Franklin ,I believe, said : A penny save is a penny earned.
Good luck for the folks who are embarking on this lifestyle! It’s hard at first, but like many things it becomes easier once the habit is engrained.
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I agree with Ross and the need to pay yourself first. Its hard to see how personal finance is different from a real business. Since the objective of a business is to make money in the long term.
To make money you need money. Since money is not in the mattress in the bedroom, therefore it has to be borrowed.
Borrowing money to invest(in education, a new house, a business venture) is the key to economic progress.
However, in my opinion, people need to start behaving like businesses and do more “due diligence” before committing to an investment. They need to ask themselves, does this purchase actually pay for itself in the long run? How will it improve the quality of my life, will I be able to make more money off it? Of course food and electricity will also qualify(since food is needed to stay alive, work and make more money).
That way if a person invests in education, then the payoff 5 years down the line would be substantially more. Or he could invest in a guitar and stave off loneliness or reduce stress. Now that would reduce the chances of suicide (or improve her chances of social interaction and therefore make her more likely to save money on depression medication). There is a whole branch of accounting that deals with putting a dollar value on such things.
However any real business would not take on credit card debt for the simple reason that the interest rate is astronomical.
Credit card debt has a very high interest rate. No business on the planet would raise money at that rate for any duration more then 2 months.
But most business would jump at a interest free loan of substantial amounts for a fixed amount of time. So sensible borrowing is the basis of economic growth.
If a car or a set of golf accessories enables you to increase your earning potential then its a good investment. However you need to run the numbers before saying its a good investment.
But then again, since most people don’t have the time to run the numbers, it makes more sense to avoid credit card debt and any sort of short term consumer debt that is substantially impacts your ability to stay afloat(financially) in times of health emergencies or other crisis(unless you have already planned for it, estimated the cost and invested the “crisis” money in a liquid instrument at a rate of interest that keeps up with inflation).
However people are not businesses. They are creatures of impulse and emotion. So its easier to avoid impulse purchases if the “disposable” income(or liquid profits) is just not there(since its already invested somewhere)
There, now it is out of my system. I feel happy…hmmmm….writing comments makes me happy. Maybe I need to get out more.
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The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.
Yes it is, but that is your idea, not mine. You really don’t get it.
Many of these ‘faceless’ investors, are people like you and me who have bought into stocks and mutual funds
They bought very risky investments where the borrower paid a stiff premium in higher interest to offset that risk. That was a business decision and they sure aren’t going to return money to the borrowers if the investment turns out to have been less risky than they anticipated with fewer defaults. In essence the borrower paid extra as insurance against the possibility of default.
No business on the planet would raise money at that rate for any duration more then 2 months.
That depends on what return they could get from the money and whether they had alternatives available at a lower rate. There are plenty of small businesses that rely on their owner’s credit card. It is expensive, but they don’t have any other source of immediate credit.
It is the same for anyone. Using credit is more expensive than using cash, it makes whatever you buy more expensive. And that needs to be figured into the decision of whether to buy on credit. If you can’t or don’t do that you aren’t using it responsibly. But there is no intrinsic moral superiority to using cash. Its just a purchasing decision, like whether to buy the more expensive brand of toilet paper.
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However people are not businesses. They are creatures of impulse and emotion. So its easier to avoid impulse purchases if the “disposable” income(or liquid profits) is just not there(since its already invested somewhere)
I agree and if you can’t control your impulses or emotions then you will find yourself spending money foolishly. My wife and I have taken to riding our bikes to garage sales with $5 and no check book. If we really want something that won’t fit into the bike bag then we have to go back and get the car.
That also works for grocery shopping whether biking or walking. Its amazing how focused you can be when you are limited to one shopping bag full of groceries. You have to control your impulses. Once you are very conscious of each purchase, it seems to carry over even to the small items where space isn’t really an issue.
What you buy is a whole lot more important than how you pay for it.
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“You really don’t get it.”
Oh, I get it.
I believe that I understand what you are trying to say, I simply don’t agree with it. In part this is because of a difference in starting principles, specifically some rather fundamental ethical ideas about being honest and fulfilling obligations made.
Even if we were starting on the same page, I still don’t know that I’d be able to follow your logic to the same conclusion, because of the seeming fallacies and inconsistencies in your reasoning. I cannot say this with certainty, however, as I do not know precisely what all the fundamental assumptions would be.
As the primary cause of your disagreement with almost all of the other commenters, myself included, seems to stem from a difference in first principles, I think we must simply agree to disagree.
If you are looking for places to promote your ideas about the liberal use of consumer credit, I would venture to say that this blog is probably not the most receptive or appropriate venue.
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Oh, I get it.
Then why did you say this? “The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.” Or was that just a dishonest attempt to deceive other people about what I said?
specifically some rather fundamental ethical ideas about being honest and fulfilling obligations made.
I think you are being fundamentally dishonest. You want people to continue make decisions about how they handle their money emotionally. You want to convince them that they are bad people if they find themselves in circumstances where they can’t repay the debts they took on in good faith. That people who bought those loans hoping to “get rich quick” are victims because their gamble didn’t pay off. That they didn’t understand that they were buying a share in the risk you took when you borrowed the money and hoped to make a handsome profit from it.
I would venture to say that this blog is probably not the most receptive or appropriate venue.
The key to “getting rich slowly” is to stop treating how people handle money as moral or emotional decisions and start treating them as business decisions.
Credit or cash are morally neutral. The choice of which to use is practical, not moral or ethical. Credit is more expensive than cash. It is in limited supply, just like cash. You can waste either one on things you don’t value or you can choose to spend them on things you do value. Its the decisions about what you buy, not how you pay for it, that is important.
It is fundamentally dishonest and unethical to portray that as advocating the “liberal use of consumer credit”. But then, we obviously have some different ideas about those values.
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Ross:
*I* am not a business. I am a person. I am not conducting my personal affairs as if I were a business. I do not see the reason for converting my way of thinking to see myself differently.
Do not attempt to render me an emotionless, “logical” entity. It isn’t going to happen. We are not corporations. We are people.
What is your problem with this whole concept anyway? What is it you find so objectionable about the very simple concept of saving a portion of your money every month? Why is embracing that idea so vilely based in emotion that you have to keep hammering at people in this blog?
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Do not attempt to render me an emotionless, “logical” entity. It isn’t going to happen. We are not corporations. We are people.
That’s fine. Just understand that if you make your money decisions based on emotion they are often going to be bad financial and business decisions. Corporations are run by people too.
What is it you find so objectionable about the very simple concept of saving a portion of your money every month?
I didn’t object to that entirely. What I said was ‘“Pay yourself first” is bad advice for young people.’
Young people starting out should be far more concerned with making sure they spend money on things that will help establish them in life, than accumulating a bank account. And since their earning power is likely to increase, they ought to make responsible use of credit to accomplish those things. That devolved into a discussion of the appropriate use of credit.
That does not mean “pay yourself first” is always a bad concept if you know what you are saving money for and have extra money. But if you have consumer debt and can afford to “pay yourself first” then you should use the money to pay off the high-interest debt first, not put it in a lower interest savings account. And, in general if you are young, you ought to leverage your limited finances by borrowing for a purchase and using the money you would have saved to pay off the loan rather than saving for a later purchase.
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Ross, I have made no attempt to deceive people about what you said. The entire thread of conversation is contained right here on this comments section, and anyone reading it can very easily see for themselves exactly what you said, and make their own judgments about whether my responses are fair.
At any rate, your accusation of my alleged unfair representation is immediately followed by a string of your characterizations of my position which are at least as exaggerated and baseless as you claim my characterization is of yours.
You have said that you have a social obligation to tip a waiter or leave money in a collection plate, but that you have no such obligation when a business is involved, and you back that up with a statement about faceless investors. In my mind, this says that your system of ethics treats businesses differently because they are not people, or because a business contract is involved instead of an unwritten understanding between one person and another.
When I say that we have a fundamental disconnect on ethical issues, I am not accusing you of being unethical or dishonest, and I don’t appreciate your own accusations towards me in that vein. I’m not in the business of telling people they are bad or imposing my own morals or ethics on others. I am only saying that when people’s ethical systems do not agree, as ours clearly do not on the issue of leaving debt unpaid at death, then further discussion that depends fundamentally on the ethical issue in dispute is relatively fruitless.
Finally, the word liberal is entirely subjective and contextual. In the context of this blog and the readers thereof, your position on the use of consumer credit falls well within the range of the term liberal, and I stand by that comment.
I am sorry that you seem to be taking this personally and on an emotional level. If you thought, however, that your ideas would not come under criticism on this blog, then you perhaps need to familiarize yourself a bit better on what this blog is about.
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I have made no attempt to deceive people about what you said.
Well, yes you have and you are doing it again here:
“You have said that you have a social obligation to tip a waiter or leave money in a collection plate, but that you have no such obligation when a business is involved”
In fact, I made no such statement. Even if I had, how does it lead to this conclusion:
““The idea that you can do what ever you want to ‘businesses’ because they are not people is absurd.””
our ideas would not come under criticism
Actually you haven’t addressed my ideas, you have simply misrepresented them repeatedly. Instead of addressing the specific examples I provided you just repeat your belief that it is unethical to leave unpaid debts at death.
You are right, I can’t argue with your belief. But I think you should state clearly “I think individuals have a moral obligation to repay debt owed to corporate stockholders, but the corporate stockholders have no moral obligation to pay off their debts beyond their investment in the corporation.” Or assert they do.
Frankly, I think either proposition is preposterous. These are business relationships governed by law, not ethical discussions. You both signed a contract that spelled out exactly what your obligations to one another were under the applicable laws. You want to put the additional burden on the borrower of some unstated moral obligation.
And the reason that is problematic ought to be obvious. There are all sorts of “credit counselors” out there that are in business to “help” people in financial trouble. And some of them use this very same argument about moral obligations to persuade unwitting people to buy their “services” instead of asking their creditors to forgive some of their debt or avail themselves of the perfectly legal remedy of bankruptcy.
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Here’s my clear statement:
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I believe I have a moral obligation to repay debt that I owe to anyone or any organization, regardless of their status as individual or corporation.
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I believe I could do very little to change anything about the structure of limited liability corporation even if I wanted to, so I have not invested the time and research into the subject requisite to form a well informed opinion on the subject.
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I believe the existence of limited liability corporations has no effect on my own moral obligation to repay debt that I assume.
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I don’t think borrowing is a moral issue at all. For me, however, defaulting on a loan is. You clearly take a different view. I am afraid to say more, lest you accuse me of misrepresenting you yet again. For anyone that has read any of my posts that reference Ross, please read Ross’ original posts as well, so that you may obtain an accurate representation on the matter.
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“You are right, I can’t argue with your belief. But I think you should state clearly “I think individuals have a moral obligation to repay debt owed to corporate stockholders, but the corporate stockholders have no moral obligation to pay off their debts beyond their investment in the corporation.” Or assert they do.
Frankly, I think either proposition is preposterous. These are business relationships governed by law, not ethical discussions.”
Which law is it exactly that you have read that states that your death will relieve your obligation to pay your debts? Granted YOU won’t be here to actually pay them, but your estate is still responsible, at least up to the point that your estate has assets.
The moral obligation some of us keep referring to is the promise that a person makes when they borrow money. When you take out a loan, you are promising to abide by the terms of the contract and repay the loan.
You borrowed the money that you didn’t have to buy something you wanted (maybe needed, but to go back to the beginning I don’t believe that anyone NEEDS a guitar). I can’t understand how you are logically getting to the conclusion that it’s OK not to pay this back, dead or alive? They kept their end of the deal, you need to do the same.
What you are ignoring here is the variable of risk. You are encouraging young people to go into debt, based on the ASSUMPTION that they will have more money in the future to pay it off. While most of the time income increases as we get older, you never know what is going to happen. What if they become injured or disabled and are unable to work? They still have the debt. I guess in your world it OK to just keep the stuff you bought and not pay what you owe. The business can just raise prices and the rest of us can pay for it.
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This entire discussion is way off the rails.
The post was about individuals saving a portion of their income on a regular basis as a matter of personal finance.
“Just understand that if you make your money decisions based on emotion they are often going to be bad financial and business decisions. Corporations are run by people too.”
DO NOT tell me what to understand. You have no authority to try and educate me. You do not know the extent to which I make decisions based on emotion (and furthermore you oddly seem to equate emotionless decisionmaking with business decisions.) You also are not nearly as successful in walling off your emotions from your decisionmaking as you think you are.
I do not know why you keep dragging corporations into this. Corporations have a vast complex of legal obligations to fulfill. Personal finance is usually much simpler, unless you are rich or have complex investments.
“Young people starting out should be far more concerned with making sure they spend money on things that will help establish them in life, than accumulating a bank account….blahblahblah..”
Your basic assertion that in the face of a huge debt load it makes more sense to pay debt than emphasize savings is a sound one. I still think it’s wise for that person to save even a small bit for emergencies (Dave Ramsey, et al. advocates having a $1K emergency fund in place before attempting serious debt repayment. I’d like to see somebody try to save even $10/month if they are broke and struggling.
I didn’t when I was young and swimming in debt. I regret it.
Not everybody reading this blog is a young person, starting out, with more bills than money at the end of the month. Some of us are older, with a substantial cash flow, and it’s not so true for us that we have a huge expectation of great leaps in personal earning power ahead. We still need to save and pay down debt.
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DO NOT tell me what to understand.
Don’t tell me what to say. You have no authority to do so. You are free to ignore that particular piece of advice – at your peril.
I do not know why you keep dragging corporations into this.
No one has to “drag” them into it. That is who holds most of the debt people owe, unless they have sold it off to individual investors.
Not everybody reading this blog is a young person
Just to be clear, my original statement didn’t address them. It was a specific statement about who that advice does not apply to.
I guess in your world it OK to just keep the stuff you bought and not pay what you owe
In the world I live in, we have bankruptcy laws that can legally forgive your debts so you no longer “owe” anyone anything. In the world I live in, the owners of corporations are not responsible for paying off its debts to you. In the world I (and you) live in, I pay a rate of interest that includes the assessed risk that I will be unable to pay off the loan. In the world I live in, my obligations are spelled out in a contract and subject to applicable laws.
You are encouraging young people to go into debt, based on the ASSUMPTION that they will have more money in the future to pay it off.
Yes I am. And you are encouraging them to forgo investment in making the best lives for themselves possible on the ASSUMPTION that they won’t be able to pay it off. If I am wrong, at worst they go bankrupt. If you are wrong they waste their life by failing to invest in it. All choices have risk.
I think not going to college because you don’t want to borrow money is a poor choice even if the loans end up being a drag on your finances for the next 20 years. There are plenty of other ways young people can use money that are equally valuable.
I don’t believe that anyone NEEDS a guitar
Neither do I. But it can enrich someones life and it may well be worth paying $2.50 a month in interest to have one.
They kept their end of the deal, you need to do the same.
Your end of the deal is spelled out in the contract and by law, as is theirs. I have never seen a contract that spelled out my authorization to transfer any “moral obligation” to some other investor, but it sure spells out that they can transfer the legal obligation.
I believe I have a moral obligation to repay debt that I owe to anyone or any organization, regardless of their status as individual or corporation.
You keep saying that. Its obvious you “believe” it. The question is why?
The other question was whether if own any stock or a mutual fund that owns stock, do you “believe” you have a moral obligation to pay its bills if it goes out of business without paying off all its debts? Afterall, what about all those poor investors who loaned your company money. The employees that didn’t get paid. The vendors whose bills are unpaid? Why aren’t you and the other owners “morally obligated” to make them whole but if they owe your corporation money, they are “morally obligated”?
It seems to me you are inventing a personal moral obligation where there is none. There may have been a time when your “character” or personal relationship with a lender was part of why they loaned you money. And if you borrow from friends and family it still is. But that is not the case with credit cards. These are entirely legal relationships that are spelled out as such. But it certainly serves lenders to have people feel some obligation beyond those spelled out in the contract.
Just to put this in perspective. Suppose you get hit by a car and die and your widow can’t make the payments on your house. Will the investors who own the loan that you “promised” to repay recognize any “moral obligation” not to throw your family out on the street? I didn’t think so.
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Heh, JD, thanks a lot! Now I can’t find that book (“The Automatic Millionaire”) in Multnomah Co Library. They’re all checked out, with the same return date. Sigh.
To Ross, et al: Think about how much time you’re spending on this fruitless argument. How many hours have you wasted? Turn those hours into dollars… then put them in a savings account!
Ding, instant millionaire!
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“Just to put this in perspective. Suppose you get hit by a car and die and your widow can’t make the payments on your house. Will the investors who own the loan that you “promised” to repay recognize any “moral obligation” not to throw your family out on the street? I didn’t think so.”
I wouldn’t expect them to, I promised to pay, and I understand that if I don’t that they get my house. They paid for my house, if I don’t pay them back I have no expectation of keeping the house.
That was one of the points I tried to make to you. My death would not eliminate the responsibility to pay my debt.
I personally feel morally obligated to pay my debts, even if I was to declare bankruptcy and I wasn’t LEGALLY responsible. It is what I agreed to, and it is the right thing to do.
This is why I would not encourage a young person to go into debt for a freaking guitar. Who cares if it’s only $2.50/month in interest, you still have to pay for the guitar eventually! This is why we have a credit crisis and record numbers of home foreclosures and bankruptcy filings, everybody has to have it NOW.
Maybe we should make shareholders (and the overpaid CEO and Board of Directors) responsible for a bankrupt corporations outstanding debt. I’ll bet we would see a lot fewer bankrupt corporations and some reasonable CEO compensation plans.
Of course that would make incorporating pointless then wouldn’t it?
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haha, Seth- I just put a hold on Automatic Millionaire at Mult Co Library myself
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They paid for my house, if I don’t pay them back I have no expectation of keeping the house.
Your expectations have nothing to do with it. You are dead. Your widow and children didn’t make any promises. Why should they pay for yours?
The answer, of course, is that you had a legal contract that used your house to secure the loan – whatever purpose you used the money for. In other words, the bank has NO moral right to your house, but they have a clear legal right to foreclose and they are going to use it regardless of the consequences to your innocent wife and children.
if I was to declare bankruptcy and I wasn’t LEGALLY responsible. It is what I agreed to, and it is the right thing to do.
But in fact, you made no such agreement. You signed a legal contract that under the law included the possibility that you would go bankrupt. And that possibility was figured into the interest rate you paid. In essence, you have paid for insurance and are refusing to use it.
Its the same as the credit insurance scams where people pay for insurance to guarantee someone else’s investment if they should be unable to repay a loan. The lender can turn around and sell the loan for a higher price because it is insured, making a handy profit financed by the sucker who took out the insurance.
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Saving money, and paying yourself first is very, very important. many if not most americans do not save, and this is a big problem. Everybody wants to look better than the person next to him/her. “Oh my car is better than yours.” “I dress better than you”, “my house is bigger than yours” The people who usually say this in most cases, actually have little or no money in the bank. They are basically living paycheck to paycheck, to paycheck, or on large amounts of credit, that will take years to pay off. Wealthy people usually, but not in all cases try not to show their wealth. They live in modest mid-sized homes, drive modest older model cars, and dress down for the most part. So just because someone dresses very well, or has that nice SUV, don’t think that they have money, because in most cases they have no money. Having a good sum of money in the bank, is what really will raise our confidence, self image, self esteem. People who have assets and large amounts of money, think different than people who are poor. The mindset is different. Having a rich, wealthy mindset is very important. Finding ways to have multiple streams of income/passive income/letting compound interest work for you are the essentials to building wealth. Just imagine how it would feel to work two jobs, slaving away everyday, like a robot, but have no or little money in the bank. Thats a horrible feeling. What is the point of working two jobs. I was like this at one time in my life, but than i learned how to pay myself first, save with discipline every month, let compound interest work for me, learned how to develop passive income from my savings, developed more streams of income, and I have to say that I feel damm good. I not rich, but comfortable. And if you saw me in the street, you would probably judge me to be struggling, by the car i drive, and how I dress. “Never judge a book by its cover” This is so true. So my friends save something every month, and discipline your mind. Let time work for you. Start reading investment magazines/books, how to build wealth books, etc.
CHANGE HOW YOU THINK. DONT HAVE A POOR MINDSET.
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Thanks, JD, this is great advice. Next year my wife and I are moving and we will both be getting new jobs. Hers will come with a substantial pay rise. Our plan is to have a large percentage of that rise automatically taken out of her pay and put it into retirement savings.
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The concept of “Pay Yourself First” is so huge! It is a dramatic shift in thinking that starts you on the path of creating personal weath.
I finally realized that I was giving all of my paycheck away to the restaurants, the shops, the banker and my landlord. By paying myself first (taking 10% of my money and saving it) I made sure that I would be able to keep some of my hard earned money! This little amount quickly turns into a large amount as time ticks on!
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Another great trick is to save all of your change.
Switch to cash to buy everything and make a rule that you can only use 20 dollar bills! Once a 20 is broken, the change goes to the bank. You will still spend all of your 20s, but you will now have some left over.
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Luckily for me I already have the right mindset! I learned really quick from one year of being in debt. I realized I was going nowhere, and concentrated on crushing my debt and saving money for a house. I’m 21 and looking for a simple house to buy now! After buying my house I plan on never using credit again! I love finances and I love saving money!!!! It is truely empowering and just gets you into a snowball effect towards real wealth!
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Why isn’t this concept being taught nationwide in our public schools, colleges, and universities? Could it be because those in charge don’t know this simple, yet profound principle? In light of today’s economic climate, managing one’s finances and saving for one’s retirement should be a top priority for every American. This article does an excellent job outlining several steps toward financial security. Especially useful is the concept of saving a percentage of one’s income. I just read about an interesting concept called the 10/90 principle…paying yourself first by investing in your financial future. It advocates paying yourself at least 10% of your income and living off the remaining 90% http://www.christianretirement.com While it may seem selfish to some, I feel that if I do not take care of my own financial needs no one else will. I have been following the 10/90 principle (paying oneself first) for years, and it works wonders for your finances. Great article!
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